Talk:Kalam

Article titles and disambiguation

With merely two subjects on this disambiguation page I believe it would be better to just link Abdul Kalam at the top of the page instead of forcing the Kalam article onto a page with the tedious title of Kalam (Islamic term). There really is no reason to do that. gren 04:44, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Someone should add a redirect from the following search terms: Islamic theology, Islam theology, and Theology of Islam. freestylefrappe 06:43, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

My Arabic is very rudimentary, but doesn't the Arabic text says something like "`alam al-kalam"? In any case, I'm quite certain that it doesn't say just "kalam".

This is very unfortunate. I doubt the Kalam people of Papua New Guinea would appreciate their one and only ethnonym being redirected to an article on Islamic theology. There's not an article for them yet, but there should be, and one day will be - in fact I may create one soon. I propose retitling it "Islamic theology" - a much fairer solution than forcing Kalam to be called Kalam (tribe).Timothy Usher 22:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's not redirected — but in any case I very much doubt that the people of the Kalam tribe would care (nor do I see why they should). The simple fact is that the this usage of "kalam" is vastly more common and important, and Wikipedia style is to place the most common and important usage in the main article namespace, using a disambiguation page for the rest. Note also that "Islamic theology" would be an inaccurate title for the article, as kalam is more specific than that. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:39, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

You're probably right about them not caring (for now), but...I'd never heard the term Kalam before, while I'd been hearing of the Kalam people and language for many years. Nor would the Arabic term seem "vastly more" common and important, were one to judge by the size of this article and comments on talk page. I am confident that the vast majority of English speakers have heard of neither.

If "Islamic theology"/"Theology of Islam" is an inaccurate title, it shouldn't be redirecting here.Timothy Usher 17:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

To Timothy: the full name of Islamic theology is `ilm al-kalaam. Pecher ^Talk 21:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

1. With regard to relative importance: try Googling; try the index of any library. believe me, "kalam" is a common term in theology, philosophy of religion, islamic studies, etc.
2. Redirects generally point to the closeest article in terms of relevance; most redirects don't point to synonyms. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Horizontal line

Mel, will you please explain why you're insisting on putting a horizontal line after the disambiguation notice? Pecher ^Talk 13:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Because, first, it serves to separate the article from material that isn't relevant. Secondly, when I raised this issue at three different Talk pages at the MoS, the majority of editors taking part in the discussions agreed that it looks better.

Now, perhaps you would explain why you're insisting on removing it? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:11, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

It is rather uncommon to have this sort of line on top of the page. How many pages that have it can you name? Pecher ^Talk 22:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I've seen in on very many pages, though I don't keep notes (you could search for it). In any case, "it's uncommon" is not a good reason for deleting something. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Islamic Theology?

From the introduction I wasn't exactly sure what Kalam is, is it simply Islamic theology or is it a branch of Islamic theology or is it a school of Islamic theology. The introduction just says it is one of the Islamic religious sciences, but that is a very broad term. Could someone educated in the matter clarify it in the introduction itself?

It is actually a philosophical practice, so I suppose you could say it is a branch of wider theology. Unfortunately, most of this article contains general information about Islamic theology in general, some of which isn't directly related to Kalam. It's no wonder the article isn't clear, as it stands most of it is unsourced and sort of ambiguous. MezzoMezzo (talk) 18:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Criticism Section

The criticism of the four imams and other traditional imams was not blanket in nature. "What has been forgotten today however by critics who would use the words of earlier Imams to condemn all kalam, is that these criticisms were directed against its having become "speculative theology" at the hands of latter-day authors. Whoever believes they were directed against the `aqida or "personal theology" of basic tenets of faith, or the "discursive theology" of rational kalam arguments against heresy is someone who either does not understand the critics or else is quoting them disingenuously." Nuh Keller Jaw101ie (talk) 19:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Nuh Keller is neither a reliable nor neutral source, though. He's a religious cleric and polemicist; if you can find similar comments from a recognized historian then that's fine, but the opinions of controversial religious figures isn't appropriate. MezzoMezzo (talk) 18:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

Ilm al-Kalam → Kalām – Although the current title is valid (see, for instance, Islam and Modernity, Edinburgh University Press, 2009), the common name of this topic in reliable, English-language sources appears to be 'Kalām'.

See, for instance:

• Bibliography of Islamic Philosophy (Brill Publishers, 1999) by Hans Daiber
• A History Of Islamic Philosophy (Columbia University Press, 2004) by Majid Fakhry
• Islam: An Historical Introduction (Columbia University Press, 2002) by Gerhard Endress
• Islam and Christian Theology (James Clarke & Co., 2003) by James Windrow Sweetman
• Islam in the Modern World (HarperCollins, 2011) by Seyyed Hossein Nasr

Some sources, such as the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy (1998) and the Encyclopedia of Islam (2010), use the lowercase letter 'a' instead of the grapheme 'ā', but the latter is more accurate and reflects common English-language usage; in any case, Kalam already is a redirect. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 20:47, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose As I read it Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Arabic) states that the strict transliteration is not to be used in titles. cf. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Arabic. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:19, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per wikilaw. 190.175.207.60 (talk) 00:19, 27 May 2012 (UTC)