Talk:Georg von Trapp

First Wife

Is Agatha Whitehead the "daugther" or "grandaughter" of Robert Whitehead? In the first section she is called the "granddaughter" and in the second section the "daughter" of Robert Whitehead. Which is right?

“As Maria relates in her book…”

  In the “Life between the world wars” section, there is a paragraph which begins with “As Maria relates in her book…”.  Which Maria — his daughter or his second wife?  I am sure it wouldn't hurt to identify the book. — Bob Blaylock 06:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The Sound of Music and the real story

This page has confirmed what I sort of already knew--the makers of THE SOUND OF MUSIC took some liberties with history and geography. When I was stationied on Okinawa as an enlisted man in 1963-1964, a theater off base had a German-language version of the Von Trapp story. (Since the theater was off base, there were no English subtitles--just Japanese ones!). But I understand enough German to know what is going on. This German-language version ought to be shown in the States either dubbed or with subtitles. It covered Maria's coming in with the family to their purchase of the farm in Vermont. It showed what was supposed to be a scene in a fancy New York hotel in 1938, but a 1954 Ford passing by showed the mistakes the makers of that movie made! Thank you for your attention.

I believe the film that is referred to in the foregoing paragraph is this one. Ellsworth 23:37, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Die Trapp-Familie in Amerika"

The Real "Real Story" of the Trapp Family

In the Wikipedia article on Maria von Trapp, there is a link to National Archives material on the Trapp Family. According to those documents, Rupert was born in 1911, and the Captain and Agathe Whitehead, his parents, were married to each other in 1912. Better late than never, I guess.

The National Archives material also includes copies of Maria's declaration of intention and petition for naturalization. Both documents state that the Captain and Maria were married to each other on November 26, 1927, and that their first child, Rosmarie, was born on February 8, 1928. Hey, the Captain is improving. The second time around, he managed to get married BEFORE the child was born. In the December 19, 1938, issue of Time magazine, there is an article on the Trapp Family Choir which claims that Maria is the mother of all of the children.

Just how many versions of the story has the family told over the years?

Today, the official line from the Trapp Family is that Rosmarie was born in 1929, and that the naturalization documents must be mistaken. I doubt it. The documents were executed under oath, at a time when few people had heard of the family. Mothers usually manage to get the birthdates of their children correct.

The declaration of intention was signed in 1944. As Maria relates in her book, around that time, she got into trouble with the War Production Board. She was building her music camp, was cited for violating wartime restrictions, and was threatened with fine and imprisonment. She managed to resolve that problem. I suspect, however, that she was warned that she would have to be absolutely truthful in the naturalization process to avoid any further difficulty with the authority. Thus, when filling out the naturalization documents, she gave Rosmarie's true birth date.

If Maria was pregnant when she married the captain, the story loses a lot of its "family values" appeal, and is premised on a fraud.

130.13.2.104 (talk) 04:57, 17 November 2007 (UTC)JPP130.13.2.104 (talk) 04:57, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Maria's story has certain "holes" in it as well. In her 1949 and 1972 books, she mentions that she taught fifth graders. Yet, in both books, especially the 1972 book, she indicates that she was a cloistered candidate under a vow of silence only permitted to speak for a brief time during each day. Which was it? Fifth grade teacher or candidate? A person can be a teacher in a Catholic school without being a religious, and without even being Catholic. The most likely explanation is that Maria, a recent graduate of the Vienna College for Progressive Education, obtained a teaching position at the convent. Times being what they were, the nuns extended the offer, and she accepted. The VCPE was, by Maria's own admission, a socialist institution, and she had "progressive" teaching methods not previously used in the abbey school. Probably, that created a lot of tension, and she and the nuns soon realized that things were not working out, so they looked for an opportunity to get rid of her. When the captain came along, seeking a private tutor for his sick daughter, I am sure the nuns realized just what they could do "with a problem like Maria," and assigned her the task of being the tutor.

If the dates on the naturalization documents are correct, then Maria became pregnant while serving as tutor. In the book, Maria states that Baroness Matilda, the housekeeper, broke her leg and had to be away for a year, requiring the Captain to place her in charge of supervising the household staff. A more likely explanation is that Baroness Matilda was disgusted by the behavior of the Captain and Maria and left of her own accord and on her own two (unbroken) legs.

I suspect that the pregnant Maria demanded that the captain marry her, and that he refused, hoping to marry Princess Yvonne. In the 1949 book, Maria tells about writing a note to the Captain, which caused him to break his engagement to Yvonne and propose marriage to Maria. Probably, the note was addressed to Yvonne, and it was Yvonne who broke the engagement with the Captain.

In the meantime, Maria probably tried to get her teaching job at the convent back. The convent obviously had no use for a pregnant unmarried nun nor any use for pregnant unmarried schoolteacher. Knowing these facts certain gives a new meaning to the convent's conclusion that it was "God's will" that Maria marry the captain.

Finally, in the 1949 book, Maria claims that she was married in a packed church, on November 26, 1927. That does not seem reasonable. As she admits in the book, the date is one day prior to the start of the Advent season, during which the Catholic church normally refrains from nuptial masses. It is not the usual time for conducting a marriage. It seems like it was a last-minute, hushed up affair, and the captain and Maria were probably married in a simple ceremony attended only by the priest, the parties, and the required witnesses. This is borne out by the fact that, according to the naturalization papers, the child was born only 2 months and 13 days later.

130.13.1.130 (talk) 01:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)JPP130.13.1.130 (talk) 01:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

A further fact suggesting that Maria was never a candidate for the religious life is that, in Europe, and at that time, especially, poor people could not enter the religious life. In most cases, a dowry was required, to help provide for the candidate's support. Maria, by her own account, was a poor orphan without funds. The idea that she could just knock on the door of a convent and become a candidate for the religious life (as she states happened in her 1972 book) is ludicrous.

130.13.1.130 (talk) 01:10, 26 November 2007 (UTC)JPP130.13.1.130 (talk) 01:10, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The events which purportedly made it necessary for the family to leave Austria seem somewhat suspicious. The "summons" join the Germany Navy seems unlikely. In 1938, the Captain was 58-years old, had not been in a submarine since 1918, or 20 years before, and had lost all his money through a foolish investment. The Germans were not so desparate, in 1938, that they would need him for their Navy or go to any special trouble to get him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by John Paul Parks (talk • contribs) 03:39, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Maria also attempts to portray Princess Yvonne as the mean, wicked stepmother to be, relating how Yvonne intended to send the children to boarding school. But let's think about this. Would that have been such an unreasonable thing to do, considering the circumstances? The von Trapp children were upper class nobility, and it could not be expected, given the social customs of Europe, for them to be educated in schools with the common people. Furthermore, they lived in the country (Aigen, the location of the Villa Trapp, was about 30 miles from Salzburg) so, assuming that the children were to receive any education at all, it was likely to be a private school at some distance from their home. In 1927, the year that the Captain and the pregnant Maria were married to each other, Rupert was 16, and he would be about ready to go to the university anyway, and as Maria points out in her 1949 book, he did go to medical school in Innsbruck.

John Paul Parks (talk) 04:49, 15 December 2007 (UTC)John Paul ParksJohn Paul Parks (talk) 04:49, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Reading Maria's 1949 book carefully, we will see that she was a CANDIDATE for the novitiate when they sent her to the captain. In other words, she had not even begun the process of becoming a nun. At best, she was a postulant, a person who is exploring the requirements for becoming a nun. To say that Maria gave up the religious life to marry the captain is like saying that someone who was thinking about applying for admission to Harvard, who got married instead, chose marriage in lieu of a Harvard degree.

130.13.1.23 (talk) 22:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)John Paul Parks130.13.1.23 (talk) 22:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Ruperts parents married in January 1911, he was born in November of the same year. And his father and stepmother married in November 1927. Rosemarie was born in 1929 (but I'm not sure, look at my question on this page).

References: William Anderson/David Wade - The world of the Trapp Family - 1998 --AndreaMimi (talk) 17:32, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Please take a look at the following website:

http://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2005/winter/von-trapps.html

The narrative recites that Rupert was born in 1911 and that his parents married in 1912. It further recites that his father and stepmother were married in 1927 and that Rosmarie was born in 1928. In particular, please look at Maria's Declaration of Intention and her Petition for Naturalization. In both documents, she states, under oath, that she was married to Georg von Trapp on November, 1927, and that her first child was born in February, 1928. Primary source documents, executed over 60 years ago, under oath, at a time when relatively few people knew of the von Trapps, are entitled to a great deal of weight in resolving the matter.

John Paul Parks (talk) 02:49, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I know this link and think, that the informations about Rupert's parents and Rosemaries Brithyear are not correct.

Today, the official line from the Trapp Family is that Rosmarie was born in 1929, and that the naturalization documents must be mistaken. (c) by User: 130.13.2.104

You can ask Rosemarie herself, if she is 1928 or 1929 born. She is still alive and lives in Vermont with her silblings and halfsisters. --AndreaMimi (talk) 10:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

How would Rosmarie, or any other person, know, the year of his or her own birth? Do you have a memory of the day you were born? Rosmarie could only repeat what others have told her. And her own mother, who should know best, has twice testified under oath that Rosmarie was born in 1928. Once in the declaration of intention, and again in the petition for naturalization. Why do you deny what is staring you in the face, in the form of documents executed by Maria von Trapp? John Paul Parks (talk) 05:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

You can ask Rosemarie herself, she is still alive. I repeat my answer.

Every person, I know, for example my parents, know there birthday. Year and day exactly.

See you soon. --AndreaMimi (talk) 21:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

And, I repeat, most respectfully, that no person has any direct knowledge of his or her own birthdate. A newborn baby has no capacity to recall the event. The only thing a person can rely on is what others tell him. That is why we have birth certificates, which are an independent record of the event made at or near the time of its occurrence.

It would be interesting to obtain a properly-authenticated copy of Rosmarie's birth certificate and settle the question once and for all. I would also accept a properly-authenticated baptismal certificate. In Europe, the Catholic Church is almost obsessive-compulsive about keeping such records, because in many places, there were no vital record registries other than the church, which kept baptismal, marriage, and death records for its members. John Paul Parks (talk) 05:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It's very complicated to understand your text ;), but I know, what you mean.

I think you can find Rosemarie's birth certificate and take a look on it. It's true, that she was born in Salzburg.

But I can't imagine, that she was born only five months after her parents are married. That's not typical for the 1920th and for the Catholic Trapp Family.

I have a question: When and where are you born ? Or can't you remember that ? ;)

I know my birthday and my birthplace, but I'm not a famous person as Rosemarie von Trapp. --AndreaMimi (talk) 13:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I have no independent recollection of my birth (nor does anyone else), but I do have a birth certificate that was issued a few days after the event. According to the naturalization documents, Rosmarie was born a little over two months after her parents' marriage to each other. We are discussing a specific case, not what is typical. Merely because a person is Catholic does not mean he is perfect. With all due respect, if you think that Catholics (or anyone else) do not get into this situation, you are incredibly naive and uninformed.

Maria admits in her 1949 book that her sudden marriage to the Captain caused a gossip scandal, and she also mentions that the Captain did not join the Catholic Church until approximately a year before she met him. Recall that the Captain was first married to an Englishwoman, and he may have married her in the Anglican church, at least for social purposes.

John Paul Parks (talk) 15:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I mean. A birth certificate.

And I know, that Georg von Trapp was a Lutheran and joined to the Catholics for his children. Look here: http://www.trappfamily.com

You can send a mail and ask a secretary, when Rosemarie is born. I had done that and get the answer, that she is born in 1929. --AndreaMimi (talk) 12:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Did the "secretary" send a certified copy of the birth certificate or the baptismal certificate?

John Paul Parks (talk) 17:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

You don't check it ! I'm very angry.

Now I will explain it slowly: Rosemarie Ehrentrudis von Trapp is born on the 8th February 1929 in Salzburg. Now she lives in Vermont. She has never married and is childless.

Why don't you believe the ressources for example the book from William Anderson/David Wade "The World of the Trapp Family" (1998/2007) ?

And why don't you believe me ? You don't need a copy of the birth certificate or the baptismal certificate.

I give you some links. There you can see, thate Rosemarie is born 1929. --AndreaMimi (talk) 19:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Your "evidence" is merely hearsay. The birth certificate or baptismal certificate is the best evidence. When someone applies for a passport, and claims to have been born in the United States, does the Government issue them a passport based on their statement alone? No. They require proof, in the form of a birth certificate or other acceptable evidence.

John Paul Parks (talk) 12:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Why can't you belive, that Rosemarie Ehrentrudis is born 1929 in Salzburg ? Many ressources give this fact.

I think that Maria Augusta had given the false year in the important document and had never corrected the mistake. --AndreaMimi (talk) 16:15, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Buy the way ;) : Belive you the date and the day, which you can see on your birth certificate ? ;) for example the 2nd March 1964 or the 15th November 1971.

In my case, it's the 20th July 1984. I have seen my birth certificate and I belive it. --AndreaMimi (talk) 19:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, so you have seen your birth certificate after all! All I have been asking is that a certified copy of Rosmarie's birth certificate (or baptismal certificate), made at or near the time of the event, be produced. Rosmarie cannot testify to the date of her own birth (no one can) and what some secretary in Vermont might say has no relevance either (unless she was present at the birth) and what others have written is not proof either. What you or I think, or would like to believe, or what we hope is true, has no bearing on the question either. The only satisfactory proof is a birth certificate or a baptismal certificate, made at or near the time of the event. John Paul Parks (talk) 15:18, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

http://www.famoushookups.com/site/relationship_detail.php?name=Maria-von-Trapp&celebid=11093&relid=9096 - There you can see, that Rosemarie is born 1929, on the 8 February.

I have a chance to go on holiday to the USA and Vermont too. I hope, I can take that and meet Rosemarie herself to ask her, when she was born. --AndreaMimi (talk) 22:05, 18 June 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.47.176.9 (talk)

Ask her all you like. No person can give direct credible evidence as to the date, time, or place of his or her own birth. John Paul Parks (talk) 16:28, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Ethnicity

From its article, Zadar has a Croatian-Italian (Venetian?) tradition, but I gather that Herr Trapp was of German (Austrian? Germanic?) ethnicity. I suppose that the Austro-Hungarian Empire classified the ethnicity of its subjects beyond the place of birth or residence. Could you tell then how was Herr Trapp classified?

Being born in Dalmatia, wouldn't he be considered Croatian? ➥the Epopt 01:23, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No, Austrians controlled Croatia at the point when he was born.

Not exactly. In 1884. Dalmatia was a part of "Croatian, Slavonic, Dalmatian" trine kingdom, hence part of St. Stephens krownlands (Hungarian) and not a part of Austria nor under Austria.

Interestingly enough, if you check in the Croatian telephone directory (http://www.tportal.hr/imenik/default.asp?lang=1), there are five Trapps listed on the island of Rab, just south of Rijeka (Fiume)where Georg and Agathe used to live.

Irrelevant. Not all Austrian 'colonists' left after WW1. Besides Trapp is a German name.

I don't think the contributor was trying to add something of "relevance" to the article or discussion, they were making an interesting observation. Dainamo 14:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

There were Trapp families in Eastern Europe too. Check those links: (http://feefhs.org/de/batschka/hodschag.html) and (http://feefhs.org/bukovina/alexdorf.html). So, not neccessary Trapp's father must came from Germany. Bukowina and Batschka were parts of monarchy at the time.

maria is a very charming woman- put by me- in the context of her arrival —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.153.126.38 (talk) 00:41, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I read in the book from William Anderson/Davide Wade, that the Trapp Family had Italian passports from their father Georg Ludwig von Trapp (birthplace in Zadar, Croatia). Not Rupert, he was Austrian, when he studied to became a doctor. --AndreaMimi (talk) 16:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

After Anschluss

There is almost nothing about his whereabouts after Anschluss. Where did he die? --Error 02:02, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

He went to America with his family and died in Stowe, Vermont. --Dhartung | Talk 06:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree that this page needs more on the information on the later events of his life - where could I find that information?

Yoda921 12:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)Yoda

Titles etc

The "Notes" section goes into some good historical detail about titles of nobility after WWI. This is relevant not only to von Trapp but also to many other notable people we have articles about. It ought to appear in a relevant Wikipedia article, with a link from here. JackofOz 03:10, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

His Children

Is there no information on the births/deaths of his children? The page for the Sound of Music says that the names of the children were changed--what were their real names? Morhange 23:04, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad to see that at least some info about his children was added. Morhange 00:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Here are my informations about the Trapp Family:

Rupert (1911-1992), Agathe (1913), Maria Franziska (1914), Werner (1915), Hedwig (1917-1972), Johanna (1919-1994), Martina (1921-1951), Rosemarie (1929), Eleonore (1931) and Johannes (1939).

Now (2007) are only Maria Franziska and Johannes are still alive. The others died, but I don't know exactly when.

And: Georg and his first wife Agathe married in January 1911, Rupert was born in November in the same year.

Book: William Anderson/David Wade: The World of the Trapp Family

In the German Wikipedia are the the birthdays of the "children" and the deathdays too.

Andrea (known as Andrea1984 in the German Version of the Wikipedia) - 14:10, 14. June 2007 (UTC)

I'm very sorry. I found out, that Agathe, Maria Franziska , Werner, Rosmary, ,Eleonore and Johannes are very still alive. The all live in Vermont, USA.

I changed the informations in the German Version of Wikipedia.

--AndreaMimi (talk) 18:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Trapp's titles - many wrong details

Unfortunately, there are many wrong details concerning Austrian noble titles and military ranks in this article. I've corrected them several times in the past, but they keep re-appearing again. Most notably, these are: (1) "Kommandant". This was not an Austrian military rank; instead Trapp's naval position is correctly called "k.u.k. Linienschiffsleutnant". (2) The link to the Military Order of Maria Theresa keeps disappearing. (3) The section on Trapp's title of nobility (begining with "For his wartime service (...)" is greatly misleading, primarily because the structure of the nobility in Austria-Hungary was entirely different from that in the United Kingdom. Applying terms such as "knight (Sir)" or "baronet" is not appropriate in this context, and a statement like "The introduction of 'von' changes the title from a knighthood to a hereditary baronetcy" is simply wrong. ViennaUK 09:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

(4) Not Georg Ludwig himself was elevated to the Austrian nobility, but his father, the k.u.k. Fregattenkapitän August Trapp, afterwards styled "August Ritter von Trapp". Titles of nobility were generally hereditary in Austria. (5) Had Trapp received his appointment to the Military Order of Maria Theresa before the end of the monarchy in 1918, he would have qualified for the title of "Freiherr" (baron) in the Austrian nobility. As the Order Chapter approved of the award on April 21, 1924 only Trapp remained a "Ritter". ViennaUK (talk) 21:02, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I've deleted the sentence about his being ennobled for his service in World War. It's obviously incorrect. Anyone who reads the article can see that. The article had read, "His father, August von Trapp, died in 1884, when he was four....For his service, [Georg] Trapp was raised to the nobility and granted the right to use the word von (of in English) before his name." How could he raised to the nobility and given the "von" if his father already had? Poldy Bloom (talk) 03:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

A page on the website for the National Archives of the United States, http://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2005/winter/von-trapps.html, includes photographs of Maria Augusta von Trapp's petition for citizenship, in which she requests that her name be changed to "Maria Augusta Trapp"; the petitions of Georg and his adult children, if any applied for naturalization, would of course be similar. Indeed, federal statute has for a century required immigrants to drop nobiliary particles from their names and renounce noble titles before naturalization. (Incidentally, two separate documents photographed on that webpage, each signed by Maria Augusta [von] Trapp, show a separation of just two and a half months between her marriage and the birth of her first child: a disappointing revelation for this "Wikist", who saw The Sound of Music as a child -- and believed it.) Firstorm (talk) 03:13, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Rosmary's Birthday

Yet, Maria von Trapp's declaration of intention and petition for naturalization states that Rosmarie's birth occurred the year before, in 1928.

When is Rosmarie born ? In 1928 or in 1929 ? What's true ?

I know, that she is still alive and live in Vermont (USA).

--AndreaMimi (talk) 17:29, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, as to 1928/1929, as noted above, the family tells one tale, and the documents tell another. As for the rest of the family:

1 August Johann von Trapp (1836 - 1884) & Hedwig Wepler ( - 1911)
    1a Ritter Georg von Trapp* (1880 - 1947) & Agathe Whitehead (1890 - 1922)
        1a Rupert von Trapp M.D.* (1911 - 1992) & Henrietta Lajoie
        1b Rupert von Trapp M.D.* (1911 - 1992) & Janice Tyre
        2 Agathe von Trapp (1913 - )
        3 Maria "Mitzi" von Trapp (1914 - )
        4 Werner von Trapp (1915 - 2007) & Erika Klambauer
        5 Hedwig von Trapp (1917 - 1972)
        6 Johanna von Trapp (1919 - 1994) & Ernst Florian Winter
        7 Martina von Trapp (1921 - 1952) & Jean Dupire
    1b Ritter Georg von Trapp* (1880 - 1947) & Maria Augusta Kutschera (1905 - 1987)
        1 Rosmarie Erentrudis von Trapp (1928 - )
        2 Eleonore (Lorli) von Trapp (1931 - ) & Hugh D. Campbell
        3 Johannes Georg von Trapp (1939 - ) & Lynne Peterson
    2 Werner von Trapp ( - 1915) & Connie
        1 Connie von Trapp
    3 Hede von Trapp

- Nunh-huh 08:00, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I know, that Agathe and Maria are still alive. I asked somebody, who works at the lodge via e-mail. And the secetary, i think, mailed, that Agathe, Maria, Werner (in summer 2007 he was still alive), Rosemarie, Eleonore and Johannes are still alive.

Martinas husband was (is ?) Jean Dupiere.

--AndreaMimi (talk) 11:46, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I put the mother Maria's death date in for both her and her daughter; I'll remove her daughter's. Werner died 11 October 2007 in Waitsfield, Vermont. Otherwise our data agrees. - Nunh-huh 12:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

The family tree is very interessting. I know, that Hedwig was named after her paternal grandmother. Georg said in the book "The Story of the Trapp Family" after Eleonores birthday, that he don't know why he had 7 girls. He wanted to name a girl Barbara, after the patron of the marine. Then he explain why it don't happend: "The first child was a boy, Rupert. The first girl is named after her mother (Agathe), the next after her grandmother (Maria, maternal grandmother and Hedwig, paternal grandmother)[ Werner after his uncle, who died during the WW I ]. So the holy Barbara give one girl after next the next, until I keep my promis."

Thank your for corrections.

Do you know, where Johanna is buried ? She died in Vienna 1994 on the affects of a stroke. And is not buried on the lodge in Vermont. --AndreaMimi (talk) 13:54, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

No, sorry, I don't have any more details on her death. Find-A-Grave seems to think she died in Minnesota on Christmas 1994 and is buried at the Trapp Familyl Lodge, but I too have read elsewhere that she died in Austria where her husband was a professor of Diplomatic Studies. - Nunh-huh 13:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC) (Also, Martina's husband's name is spelled different ways in different books, but on her grave marker it seems to be "Dupire"). - Nunh-huh 14:02, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I know, that Ernst Florian Winter is still alive and his children too. Only a son died in childhood.

Look her: William Anderson/Davide Wade: The World of the Trapp Family, 1998. --AndreaMimi (talk) 21:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I found out, that Johanna was buried in Vienna. The source is there:

http://www.wien.at/grabauskunft.

Trapp-Winter Johanna

--AndreaMimi (talk) 21:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.121.82.94 (talk)

Can you help me ?

I put the dates to the children on this page in the form like here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Alice_of_the_United_Kingdom#Marriage - in a table.

But it don't look very well.

The dates are correct. You can put a link to Agathe, Maria Franziska and Werner, because there are some informations about them.

Please help me to find a correct form of the table.

Now I put the links in a correct form. It looks better.

Everything is fine. I can help myself. ;) --AndreaMimi (talk) 12:35, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Johannas Grave

Look here: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gsr&GScid=641570

But one point is not correct: Johanna died on the 25th November on the affects of a stroke in Vienna, not on the 25th of December like in the link.

Probably somebody can correct it on this page.

I wish you a nice weekend. --AndreaMimi (talk) 21:11, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Two questions

Two questions please.

1. Did the von Trapps lose their real property, that is their estate, when they left Austria and, if so,
2. Did they get it back after the war? Avalon (talk) 04:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

@Avalon

Please, give me some time to research this question. Then you get the answer. --AndreaMimi (talk) 21:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

According to Maria's 1949 book:

Immediately after the family left, the German Army seized the house and its grounds, and it was used by Heinrich Himmler as his headquarters. It would be interesting to obtain independent verification of the story. After the war, the family was able to recover the property, but sold it to St. Joseph's Seminary. The family visited again in 1950, as part of a musical concert performance they gave in Salzburg.

John Paul Parks (talk) 05:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The house is open as an hotel and the park too. It will be opend in July 2008. The members of the Trapp Family don't want to have it back, since the built their lodge in Austria. --AndreaMimi (talk) 16:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Agathe Whitehead von Trapp

She was born 1890 and died on the 3rd September 1922. But I don't know her birthday. And I can't find anything in the internet about this.

Can somebody help me ? --AndreaMimi (talk) 21:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the secretary in Vermont knows. Have you asked her? John Paul Parks (talk) 06:32, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I found out, that Agathe Whitehead was born on 14 June 1891. Thats correct. The source is an Austrian.

Agathe Whitehead was buried in Klosterneuburg, Austria. --AndreaMimi (talk) 21:21, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Lloyd's of London

The section "Economic disaster and new career" begins "In 1935, Georg's money, inherited from his first wife, Agathe, was safely invested in a bank, the famous Lloyd's of London." As a moment's glance at the article about Lloyd's of London will show, it is an insurance market and entirely unconnected to Lloyds Bank. Someone should check exactly which institution von Trapp put his money into.--GagHalfrunt (talk) 19:11, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Statements Need Verification

The discussion regarding Rosmarie's date of birth, and the effort to impeach the written record provided by the declaration of intention and the petition for naturalization are obviously intended to promote the POV that Maria was not pregnant at the time she married the captain. The reasons on why the documents might be inaccurate are pure speculation. One of the cornerstones of Wikipedia is verifiability, and the manner in which a person's date of birth is verified is by producing an official record, made at or near the time of the event. Likewise, the written statements of the mother, made under oath, on two separate occasions, at times when relatively few people knew of the family, and in documents that are now more than 60 years old, and containing admissions against interest, constitute acceptable evidence as well. On the other hand, a person cannot credibly testify as to the date or place of his own birth, and statements by secretaries in Vermont, who have an obvious interest in promoting a point of view, are not reliable either. Vague references to what Catholic priests do or permit in a given situation shed no light on the question either, particularly since there is no evidence of any uniform standard to all priests conform in such matters. What a person was or was not wearing at the time of her wedding has no bearing on whether or not she was pregnant at the time. John Paul Parks (talk) 06:25, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Even if "Maria herself put a great deal of emphasis on these symbols of virginity in her recounting of the weddings of her stepdaughters and daughter Lorli . . ." that does not prove that Maria was a virgin at the time of her own wedding. It might indicate, however, that she had a guilty conscience. In an analogous situation, I know of lots of parents who used drugs in the 1960's who are very strict with their own children on the subject.

John Paul Parks (talk) 16:26, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

It should also be noted that Maria, in her 1949 book, describes her acquaintance with Mimi, a local seamtress, who advised her on how to conceal a pregnancy from view, so Maria obviously had experience with that subject. The question, of course, is when, and in what circumstances, Maria would have need of such advice.

John Paul Parks (talk) 05:22, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Well it can be possible, that Maria Augusta use this clothes in 1927 like in 1938 too. And nobody can see, if she was pregnant at the time of her wedding or not. --AndreaMimi (talk) 21:28, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

When two sources conflict

When two sources conflict, its best not to flip a coin and choose one over the other. We have to report both and show the strength and weaknesses based on what third parties say, or what is written in the original document. We shouldn't guess on intentions, just report. The article by NARA doesn't mention the conflict, it just gives the correct information. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:26, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Which source is correct ? You can ask Rosemarie herself, she is still alive. --AndreaMimi (talk) 21:23, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

• A personal interview isn't a valid source for Wikipedia. See Al Lewis (actor) for the problems with using self-promoting birth date information in a article when a legal document gives an alternate date. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 21:52, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

• And aside from that, there is no way that a person can give any reliable testimony as to the date of his or her birth, because he or she obviously does not have any memory of that event at the time it occurred. That is why we have birth certificates and other records. When a person applies for Social Security and other age-related government benefits, they do not just "ask" the person for his or her date of birth: they demand documentary proof. I agree with the decision to note the conflict in this case. John Paul Parks (talk) 16:04, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I am sure if you ask people their grades in school, some will tell you they got straight A's, even if they didn't. If they say that in a biography, the fact is verifiable, but isn't correct. When two sources conflict, we give both and explain why one is stronger or weaker than the other. See Al Lewis (actor). --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 21:58, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, well you are right. We give both sources. And try to find out, which is the right.

I wish you a nice day .--AndreaMimi (talk) 11:16, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

These need to be sourced

However, this is likely to have been due to a typographical error on the first document, and a copy of the same error on the second. Daughter Eleonore's name is misspelled as "Eleonora" on both documents, making it likely that the second was copied from the first without the error in Rosemarie's birth date being caught. Further confirmation of the 1929 birth date for Rosemarie can be found in several places. The passenger manifest of the ship on which the von Trapp family emigrated to America in September 1939 gives Rosemarie's age as ten years. Furthermore, photos of Maria and Georg's wedding in 1927 show Maria in full white bridal dress, wearing a veil along with the traditional wreath of myrtle, a symbol of virginity. Had she been seven months pregnant, she would not have been allowed by the presiding Catholic priest to wear white, the veil, or the myrtle wreath.

Rosemarie herself said in an interview, she was 9, when she lived austria and 18, when her father died in 1947.

--AndreaMimi (talk) 21:23, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Further Sourcing Needed

The statement "In May 1938, the family was "offered", meaning ordered, to perform at Berchtesgaden[citation needed], Adolf Hitler's private retreat on the German side of the Austrian Alps." needs further clarification.

According to Maria's 1949 book, the family was invited to sing for Hitler's birthday. This is doubtless an allusion to Hitler's 50th birthday celebration, which was a nationwide event, and would not necessarily have been limited to the von Trapp family. Hitler turned 50 on April 20, 1939, thus the May 1938 date would not be correct. If the family was invited to a private audience at Berchtesgaden, we need verification for that.

The three events described in Maria's 1949 book, that supposedly triggered the need to leave Austria, are (1) the invitation to the captain to join the Navy, (2) the offer to Rupert to work in the hospital, and (3) the invitation to sing at Hitler's 50th birthday celebration. That refusal to participate in these events would have necessitated a departure from the country seems doubtful:

(1) In 1938, the captain was 58-years old. He had not operated a submarine since 1918, the end of the First World War. I doubt that the Germans were so desperate, in 1938, that they would have gone to any great effort to include him their Navy. In the 1949 book, we are told that the captain first mentioned the invitation while he and Maria were in Munich (they had gone there to consult a specialist about Maria's pregnancy). The captain pulled the letter out of his pocket and began to read it. If it came to him in the mail at home, and he did not read it until he was in Munich, then obviously, he had it several days before he even read it. On the other hand, since he was in Germany at the time he first read it, it is possible that he was reading material that he picked up at the Navy recruiting station in Munich. Maria's writing style is vague and fuzzy on dates, which probably suits her purpose in many cases.

(2) Rupert had just graduated from medical school, and he was given an offer to work in a Vienna hospital. He declined, on the ground that procedures were being performed to which he could not assent, either as a Catholic or as a man. Up until 1938, however, Vienna was independent of Germany, so if Rupert, trained in Austria, knew anything about such procedures, they had to have been going on in Austria prior to the German annexation, and thus were not entirely attributable to the German Nazis. And if they were going on, Rupert doubtless would have been exposed to them during the course of his medical training. Further, Rupert was a newly-minted doctor, with no experience and no particular expertise. His refusal to work for the Nazis probably did them no harm.

(3) As noted above, Hitler's 50th birthday celebration was a nationwide event, and it occurred in April 1939, not in May 1938. There were probably many activities going on throughout the country. The presence or absence of one singing group, more or less, likely would not have made any earth-shaking difference.

John Paul Parks (talk) 09:58, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Ad 1) Desperate? Are you serious? Georg Ludwig von Trapp was most successful submarine comander of austrian navy in WWI. And Germany have no submarines for long time after WWI and for this have lack of experienced men - von Trapp was very attractive person with invaluable experiences for Kriegs Marine. Naturally not as submarine commander (too old), but as instruktor, theoretician or base commander. --Žoldák (talk) 08:35, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Johannas Grave

https://www.wien.gv.at/grabauskunft/internet/suche.aspx - look here. And search for Johanna Trapp-Winter.

Johanna was buried in Vienna on the 6 December 1994. She died on the 25 November 1994 at the affects of a stroke.

Another source: William Anderson/David Wade, The World of the Trapp Family, 1998

http://www.vermonthomesandtowns.com/17.htm . There is also known, that Johanna died in Austria.

--AndreaMimi (talk) 21:51, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

New Source about Rosemarie von Trapp

http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c301/singerlkw1089/Canada%202007/?action=view&current=Canada001.flv - there speaks Rosemarie herself. And said, that she was 9 when she left Austria in 1938 and was 18 in 1947 when her father died.

--AndreaMimi (talk) 22:25, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I will say again that no one can testify to the date, time, or place of his or her own birth. The only credible evidence is a birth certificate or a baptismal certificate. Maria promoted various versions of the family story. In the December 19, 1938, issue of TIME magazine, there is an article, "Music: Family Choir," in which she is described as the mother of all the children. Her books contradict each other and are internally inconsistent as well. She has the gall to criticize Rogers and Hammerstein for their portrayal of the captain, but they merely incorporated ideas taken from her 1949 book. Maria is a thoroughgoing fraud, and I do not believe a word she wrote. John Paul Parks (talk) 05:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Poor boy, you don't belive, what Maria Augusta von Trapp wrote in her books. She never wrote, that she married the Captain before World War I. --AndreaMimi (talk) 22:25, 1. August 2012 (UTC)

A stepmother is a mother, why do you find that a contradiction? She never uses the word "biological mother". --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 21:51, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Mr. Norton, please read the article, "Music: Family Choir," published in the December 19, 1938, issue of TIME magazine. The article begins as follows:

Twenty years ago a patch-mustached Austrian nobleman, Captain Georg von Trapp, commander of an Austrian submarine, came home from the War to his family castle near Salzburg. There he and his buxom wife, Frau Maria Augusta, settled down to the serious business of raising their family. The family flourished. By 1921 it included seven small von Trapps; and there were more to come.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,772134,00.html#ixzz1T4yWFAEM

According to this, Maria married him before the First World War. How many tales has the woman told?John Paul Parks (talk) 02:19, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Maria Augustas first pregnancy

"In Maria's 1949 book, "The Story of the Trapp Family Singers", she describes informing her step-children of her first pregnancy in the summer. Therefore it is most likely that Maria made an inadvertent error on the earlier papers." - yes, that's true. Also in "Vom Kloster zum Welterfolg" (German Book, 1949). But it's not clear, if Maria Augusta means summer 1927 or summer 1928 in this case.

--AndreaMimi (talk) 20:47, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

The book is not under oath. The papers are.John Paul Parks (talk) 02:15, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Its possible, that Maria Augusta lies under oath. --AndreaMimi (talk) 18:30, 14 November 2011(UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.47.176.47 (talk)

It is possible, that Maria Augusta (or officer) made mystake or misunderstanding. Papers can be under oath, but under stress, in no mother tongue and perhaps from memory. For this, I see Declaration of Intention and Petition for Naturalization as very unreliable documents for detailed information. --Žoldák (talk) 05:18, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Style

This is the biography of a real person. I think it's entirely inappropriate to write it as a comparison to the semi-fictional character. Numerous paragraphs highlight differences between this subject and the movie/musical. But in reality, there was a book, plays, and movies - so exactly which one should we make the comparison? Instead, we should simply stick with the biographical facts, remove references to books, plays, and film, and move any useful comparisons between them to those articles. In other words, let the books, plays, and film articles explain why they're different from the biography and not the other way around. Rklawton (talk) 21:24, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Georg Ludwig von Trapp

This source says the subject's name was Georg Johannes von Trapp and not Ludwig. Why are we using Ludwig? Should we change it? Rklawton (talk) 18:14, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I think we should change it, yes. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:12, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

 Done--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:14, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

William Anderson used the name: Georg Ludwig von Trapp. Johannes Georg (* 1939) is the son of Georg Ludwig and Maria Augusta von Trapp. --AndreaMimi (talk) 22:31, 1. August 2012 (UTC)

I've reverted your change for now, because it doesn't make any sense to have the title one way and the text another way. We have a published reliable source from the family giving "Johannes" as his middle name -- we need something at least that good, that we're sure wasn't sourced from the Wikipedia article, to replace it. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:41, 1 August 2012 (UTC)