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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Acoma Magic (talk | contribs) at 17:38, 21 September 2012 (→"marriage equality" in bold). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former featured articleSame-sex marriage is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 24, 2003Featured article candidatePromoted
March 1, 2004Featured article reviewDemoted
November 21, 2010Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Former featured article


Witherspoon Institute

There's an issue regarding same-sex marriage being discussed on Talk:Witherspoon_Institute. It might be helpful if more editors were involved. StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 08:02, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Kashmir in Orange?

In the map listing out the countries as per their reaction to same sex unions, its shocking that Indian Administered Kashmir is shown as having a different colour than the rest of India. Last I remembered, the part of Kashmir under Indian rule is pretty much subject to the same regulations as the rest of India. Tigerassault (talk) 12:47, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Kashmir is subject to a different penal code, the "Ranbir Penal Code", and apparently the court decision on section 377 IPC didn't read down the corresponding section of the RPC. - htonl (talk) 12:56, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jesus and Same-Sex Marriage

Recently I attempted to make the following edit to the religion section.

Many base their opposition to same-sex marriage upon their interpretation of Jesus and his teachings.[1]

The author of the article is Daniel Akin who is the president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and prominent leader in the Southern Baptist Convention. What made this article interesting was its emphasis on applying the teachings of Jesus to same-sex marriage. Many have argued that Jesus had nothing to say about the matter. I thought that wiki readers might be interested in hearing Daniel Akins tradition Christian interpretation on this matter.

While I appreciate Mr. X giving me a good faith edit, I would like to appeal his removal of my edit. Please weigh in on this issue and help us decide if wiki readers would be better informed by Akin's thoughts and my edit. Toverton28 (talk) 20:38, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, it's a non-scholarly editorial in an unreliable non-scholarly magazine, so at most it might be useful for the opinion of the author alone. Second of all, it's a primary source, and we have no way of assessing what weight to that opinion as it has not been discussed by independent reliable sources. Opinions like this are dime a dozen, or even dime a gross, so it's really not that significant or useful. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I understand what you are trying to say, but seminary presidents who are major leaders in the largest protestant denomination in the United States are not a "dime a dozen". Daniel Akin certainly speaks with authority when he makes statements on scripture. My main point is that wiki readers would be enriched by hearing this perspective. Toverton28 (talk) 21:06, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Toverton28, I appreciate you bringing this to the talk page. Your edit represented the view of someone to whom the publisher is beholden. Daniel Akin is a prominent leader of the publishing organization, so the blog post lacks journalistic integrity.
You also added this content to the lead of at least one article. The lead should summarize the contents of the rest of the article, not present novel content.
Although it doesn't necessarily preclude inclusion in the Wikipedia articles, some of the claims that Akin makes in his post on Baptist Press defy logic. For example,
His argument for claiming that Jesus spoke against same sex marriage:
"Jesus believed that sex is a good gift from a great God. He also believed that sex was a good gift to be enjoyed within a monogamous, heterosexual covenant of marriage."
These sorts of "if a=b, and d=f, then a=e" arguments tend to insult one's intelligence. — MrX
Thank you Mr.X. I would take a different view that Akin appearing in Baptist Press makes him lack journalistic integrity. If that were true, then all Bill Keller articles appearing in the NYTs would have to be removed from wiki since he was once the editor of the paper. If anything, appearing in Baptist Press (BP) increases the stature of his statements. BP is the media wing of the Southern Baptist Convention. Its articles are picked up by numerous state Baptist papers. I would also like to hear other individuals comment on placement. I think it is also helpful to understand that Akin is a well known evangelical theologian. Neither one of us are likely to win a theological debate with him. The question is not if we agree with him or not, but rather does his article represent a large group of Christians/Evangelicals and their beliefs? Being that his views appeared in BP answers that question in the affirmative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Toverton28 (talk • contribs) 22:59, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We are talking about this edit which added "Many base their opposition to same-sex marriage upon their interpretation of Jesus and his teachings." based on source http://www.bpnews.net/BPFirstPerson.asp?ID=38461. That proposed edit is not suitable for several reasons (source not reliable for "many"; WP:REDFLAG issue because any link between Jesus and same-sex marriage is over-reaching opinion; misuse of Wikipedia's voice for someone's opinion). If the text were rewritten as an attributed opinion, the issue of WP:DUE arises: is the author an acknowleged expert on the issues? is the material useful to the article? is it merely coatracking pro/con arguments? I don't think the text would ever be suitable, except in an article on the author where it might be useful to illustrate his views (although WP:SECONDARY sources should be used for that). Johnuniq (talk) 00:26, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That he is speaking to a large number of Baptists does not mean that he is speaking for a large number of Baptists (and in fact if all Baptists already held to what he said, he wouldn't need to say it!) So it's certainly insufficient source for the claim it was attached it. --Nat Gertler (talk) 01:04, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Flags and Same-sex marriage legislation around the world

Could you give your opinions here? Ron 1987 (talk) 01:51, 10 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Polls for same-sex marriage and Argentina section

The polls are so close to half that when you take into account the margin of error in the source, it goes down to less than half. Therefore, it shouldn't say a majority when the sources used show that it may be less than half. Regarding my other edit, Same-sex_marriage#Argentina already says "a bill extending marriage rights to same-sex couples." so the repeat of that just down from it is unnecessary. Acoma Magic (talk) 01:46, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree. We should stick to what the sources say. Mentioning the margin of error is fine, but don't change language. Teammm TM 01:49, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I made the change precisely because of what the sources say. Acoma Magic (talk) 01:58, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Post a quote or section that resembles what you wrote. Teammm TM 02:05, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Numbers are as valuable as words. The numbers from the sources show that it could be less than half. Acoma Magic (talk) 02:09, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The sources say 53% and majority, so that's what we must say. This seems nothing more than a thinly-veiled attempt to use statistics and original research to revise facts. – MrX 02:10, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The other source says 51% and includes a margin of error that will easily take it to less than half. There's no original research in using the whole source rather than just the headline. Acoma Magic (talk) 02:12, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So, you then think we should go with the outlier of the group to make the numbers look as low as we possibly can? – MrX 02:19, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There's only 3 polls. Two say 53% and one says 51%. All 3 of them have a margins of error reaching less than 50%. It should say that polls show around half of Americans support SSM and specify the two numbers. Acoma Magic (talk) 02:31, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Source #1: "For the first time in Gallup's tracking of the issue, a majority of Americans (53%) believe same-sex marriage should be recognized by the law as valid, with the same rights as traditional marriages." (Gallup from May 2011)
Source #2: "More than half of Americans say same-sex marriage should be legal...this year's 53 percent..."
Source #3: "More than half of Americans say it should be legal for gays and lesbians to marry, a first in nearly a decade of polls by ABC News and The Washington Post...grown to 53 percent..." (ABC/Washington Post from March 2011)
Source #4: "Do you think marriages between gay and lesbian couples should or should not be recognized by the law as valid, with the same rights as traditional marriages? ...should be recognized as valid ...51% (CNN/ORC from April 2011)
Your edit isn't reflective of the sources. Also, the CNN/ORC and ABC/WashingtonPost polls were redone in 2012 reporting 54% and 53%, mooting old ones. Teammm TM 03:08, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
One of those sources is just reporting another one. The 54% poll is the only poll to miss out of being half or less according to the margin or error. We should go with what the majority of sources say. The most accurate thing to put is that support of SSM is around half and give the 51-54% number. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Acoma Magic (talk • contribs) 06:36, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's 2012 and no poll is reporting 51% if you haven't noticed. Take a look at the sources. Thank you. Teammm TM 13:31, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You can't just remove the sources and say that lol. Even the 53% polls show that it could be less than half. I restored the 51% poll as it's only a year old and isn't invalid. Acoma Magic (talk) 13:49, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't remove them, I updated them with the identical new one. What are you...blind or bad at comprehension? Stop trying to edit war. It's far from "lol" material. Teammm TM 14:05, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The MSNBC source is only used once. Also, the poll is reporting 51% only a year ago and we don't have enough sources for 2012 to invalidate that. Acoma Magic (talk) 14:11, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not opposed to reporting a range of percentages, but interpreting the margin of error to dispute "majority" is clear WP:OR. Remember, the poll itself is a primary source. We need to rely upon secondary sources to interpret it, and they interpret it as "a majority". Glaucus (talk) 14:34, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree that reading beyond the headline (in order to avoid giving out possibly false information, which omitting the margin of error will do) is OR, but there's no point in arguing the same point again; I'll wait and see if more people join the discussion. Also, you reverted my removal of a bit from the Argentina subsection. I said why I did that up the top of here and do you agree or disagree? Acoma Magic (talk) 15:16, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Including the margin of error in the text is one thing, using it to dispute the source's interpretation (of majority) is another. But I don't think including margin of error is standard on wiki; it seems unnecessarily confusing when we have reliable sources to interpret them for us. As for the Argentina section, I disagree that it is at all POV (as the edit summary said). Furthermore, the quote from the article was about support for marital rights, not the bill itself. From the article: "polls showing that nearly 70 percent of Argentines support giving gay people the same marital rights as heterosexuals." Glaucus (talk) 16:24, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's just a repeat of the information above it. Acoma Magic (talk) 17:48, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm really confused now. How is the result of a public opinion poll a repeat of "the Argentine Senate approved a bill extending marriage rights to same-sex couples"? Just because marital rights legislation is passed doesn't mean that marital rights has popular support, and vice versa. Glaucus (talk) 19:14, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It just needs to say something like "support for same-sex marriage in Argentina was nearly 70%". If there wasn't already information on the bill then it could be long winded. Acoma Magic (talk) 20:05, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Anything over 50 percent is indeed "more than half", and half is a common and useful threshold, so it's reasonable to use that wording in the article. "Around half", while not untrue, is less precise and tends to obfuscate that the figure at issue is in fact above the threshold. I propose a slight modification, changing "Recent polls show" to "Recent polls indicate"; that's more accurate, since the only thing that a given poll definitively shows is the results of a given poll. Various factors, including margin of error, can skew poll results, so I think that would be better wording. Rivertorch (talk) 18:18, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It wouldn't actually be less precise since the exact percentages (51-54%) would be there. Acoma Magic (talk) 20:05, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
51% hasn't been found in a legitimate national poll since the beginning of 2011. That's not considered recent. Okay? The poll you insist on using the 51% has concluded 53% at the end of 2011, and 54% in Late May 2012. All recent polls indicate 53-54%. Teammm TM 00:37, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You only have 3 polls to give. Two of them go to less than half because of the margin of error. So that's the first thing regarding language of "majority". Second, 3 polls is not enough to invalidate a poll taken a year ago. Acoma Magic (talk) 22:02, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
My opinion is that at least 3, maybe 2 more studies are needed that were taken later than the 51% poll to invalidate it (assuming the results are higher than 51%). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Acoma Magic (talk • contribs) 22:04, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You're repeating the same arguments and beating a WP:DEADHORSE. As Teammm has said very plainly, all recent polls indicate 53-54% If you disagree with that fact, make your case with source-backed references, not hypothetical suppositions. – MrX 22:19, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"all recent polls"? It is only 3 polls you claim and one year is very recent. Recent polls give 51-54%. Acoma Magic (talk) 00:51, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Other implications of same-sex marriage

There are many other issues and implications of same-sex marriage, that are relvant to the ongoing political arguments and the interpretation of what 'marriage' means. Some are captured here, but others aren't. Is there benefit in adding sections for things like the impact of the death of a partner on inheritance of assets, pensions, and responsiblities toward surviving children; day-to-day implications such as signing on behalf of the partner, visitation rights in hospital, joint ownership of property, picking up children from school, etc; taxation issues such as dependant spouse and dependant children, joint tax rreturns etc.? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.27.206.132 (talk) 06:34, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fictional section

I don't think that "Fictional same-sex marriage" belongs under Issues, I propose that it be relocated to a separate section.

 Done. Teammm TM 17:31, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"marriage equality" in bold

I've only seen words in bold when they're another name for the article. I don't know if that's backed up by policy, but it's the status quo. So apart from it mocking Wikipedia's neutrality policy, it also shouldn't be in bold anyway. Acoma Magic (talk) 12:51, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Considering the context of the sentence, and that the use of the term is clearly attributed to a specific group, I'm having problems understanding how this is "mocking". eldamorie (talk) 13:37, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is another name for the article. Titles don't necessarily have to be neutral, and the bar for alternative titles is lower than for article titles. Marriage equality is a common term, well supported by available sources, and presented in a way that makes it clear it is used by supporters. --Trystan (talk) 14:20, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
[ WP:EDITCONFLICT with Trystan]. Acoma Magic, "marriage equality" is another name for the article. It's a redirect. And, per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section#Abbreviations and synonyms, because it is another name (widely-used name)/redirect, it should be bolded. It follows Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section#Alternative names and Wikipedia:Article titles#Treatment of alternative names (see the small picture example on both pages?)
As an aside, perhaps you already know that everyone can see through your "I'm trying to present neutrality" charade; your "neutrality" is consistently focused on same-sex issues in opposition of same-sex issues/aspects; a lot of editors at this site have seen this type of behavior countless times before. And your having followed Teammm from the Homosexuality article to the Oprah Winfrey article is hopefully something that does not become a WP:STALKING pattern of yours regarding Teammm or others concerning other articles. From what I can see, there are a lot of Wikipedia policies and guidelines and even essays that you need to read up on if you plan to edit here for long in the topics that you've been editing in. Removing images from articles just because you feel like it (with "justifications" being that "It doesn't look great," "Removed low quality image," or something of the sort), as you did while in conflict with Teammm at the Oprah Winfrey article, is often not good conduct. Not good reasons, since what doesn't look great or is low-quality to you may look great or not be low-quality to others; a lot of images have been discussed before being added or after being added and have WP:Consensus for being there, which is why it is generally best to ask on the talk page of the article in question before removing an image/images. 58.53.192.218 (talk) 14:28, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's mocking Wikipedia's neutrality because it is not an alternative name for the article, yet it's still in bold. Marriage equality is not an alternative name for same-sex marriage. Some may claim that once same-sex marriage is legalised, marriage will then be equal, but it's not the same as an alternative title. Responding to the IP, LGBT articles seem to be mostly or significantly edited by LGBT people, so support is usually well covered. I didn't edit anything Teammm edited, so your allegation of stalking is ridiculous. Images that are low quality or look bad should be removed and I'll continue to remove those. Images don't have to have consensus before being added. They are usually simply added to the article. Acoma Magic (talk) 16:59, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also, to Scientiom, Jojalozzo's edit of that paragraph looks much better and I'd like to know why you don't think so. Acoma Magic (talk) 17:02, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Acoma magic, i disagree with you because there are many neutral reliable sources describing it as such for example [1], [2] Pass a Method talk 17:11, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Acoma: I agree with the others that "marriage equality" is indeed an alternative title for the article, as is clear from the sentence in which it appears, and should therefore appear in bold print. I see no possible POV problem with this, and do not agree with your assertion that it is "mocking" in any way. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 17:16, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There's usually not opposition to medical things, so medical people editing them shouldn't cause any neutrality issues. Where has it been shown "time and time again"? Where are the agreements that have been made? I'm not offended, it's just going to make readers suspicious about whether this article is neutral. Those reliable sources you have there, just show that people feel that marriage will be equal if same-sex marriage is passed. It is not the same as being an alternative name for same-sex marriage. The sentence in which it appears says that recognition of same-sex marriage is marriage equality. Which is exactly what I've been saying. They say recognising SSM is making marriage equal. It does not mean that marriage equality is therefore another name for SSM. Acoma Magic (talk) 17:24, 21 September 2012 (UTC) [reply]

Note: stricken text a response to now-deleted comment. Acoma Magic (talk) 17:38, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Akin, Daniel (2012-8-9). "Is it true Jesus never addressed same-sex marriage". Baptist Press. Retrieved 2012-8-27. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help)
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