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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 213.155.255.148 (talk) at 19:52, 2 November 2012 (→‎New sister project proposal: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Cities
Places and Realms

The below articles in this section are no longer active merger candidates but most are still stubs or have been tagged for notability or in-universe style of writing. De728631 (talk) 12:31, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hills, Mountains, and Passes
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Forgotten mergers

In November 2007 User:YLSS placed a Merge JRRT template on Dor Daedeloth, recommending that it be merged with Beleriand. (That user does not appear to have edited since 2008.) No corresponding merge template was placed on Beleriand, however, and no merger discussion was initiated. I would suggest that either a discussion be initiated at Talk:Dor Daedeloth, or that the template be removed. See Help:Merging for more information on proposing mergers. Cnilep (talk) 15:15, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we need a discussion for that one but can rather quickly merge it to Angband, which itself could need some fleshing-out. De728631 (talk) 16:37, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Same thing, all marked non-notable and certainly most, merge to:

  1. Ered Mithrin
  2. Ered Wethrin
  3. Eregion
  4. Esgaroth
  5. Ettenmoors
  6. Harad
  7. Hithlum
  8. House of Hador
  9. Lond Daer Enedh
  10. Luthany
  11. Meduseld
  12. Menegroth
  13. Minhiriath
  14. Morgul Pass
  15. Nargothrond
  16. Orocarni
  17. Osgiliath
  18. Ost-in-Edhil
  19. Pelennor Fields
  20. Reunited Kingdom
  21. River Sirion
  22. Torech Ungol
  23. Umbar

Rich Farmbrough, 03:56, 22 April 2010 (UTC).[reply]

User:Arskwad has merged a lot of those today. What still remains is shown in the "Issues" section above. De728631 (talk) 19:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would take a crack at Umbar, which needs a serious rewrite, and merge Corsairs of Umbar (another forgotten merger not listed above) there as well (again with rewriting) -- something on the models of Rhovanion and Rohan as parent articles hosting peoples and realms that occupied the territory. Umbar itself should remain as an independent article; there's really no good merge target. -- Elphion (talk) 15:05, 20 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation pages and their categories

I just noticed that there is a hidden talk page template {{ME-disambiguation}} that sorts articles into Category:WikiProject Middle-earth disambiguation pages. At the same time we have Category:Disambig-Class Tolkien articles coming from the rating in the project template on talk pages. In my opinion we should gather them all by tagging with the project template. These project banner rating categories have a built-in navigation box and you can also jump to Category:Disambig-Class Tolkien articles from the quality roster on this page.

In terms of work it would surely be easier to just tag the three pages in Category:Disambig-Class Tolkien articles with the other template but I for one think the categories populated by {{ME-project}} are much more user-friendly. What do you think? De728631 (talk) 20:19, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm up for it. What do I need to do? What tags need going on which pages? GimliDotNet (talk) 20:21, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Cool. Please check the pages in Category:WikiProject Middle-earth disambiguation pages and replace {{ME-disambiguation}} with {{ME-project|class=disamb}}. De728631 (talk) 21:52, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Hobbit FA push

In its present state The Hobbit looks ready to me for being lifted to FA class. It is very well-referenced and the plot section is pleasantly short while telling the major events. Then there's a lot of real-world info like concept/creation, reception, adaptations etc. No edit warring either. Should we try and nominate it or did I miss anything that should be fixed beforehand? De728631 (talk) 22:08, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have just requested WP:Peer review for the article De728631 (talk) 20:38, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The article is now an official featured article candidate at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Hobbit/archive2. De728631 (talk) 15:48, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed deletions

I have just prodded three articles, Eothain, Éomund and Lothíriel, all three of which are minor characters from the books and have no real-life notability at all. Frankly I can't even remember these characters having just re-read the books, with two of them mentioned in passing and Eothain only having a couple of lines. I perhaps would of supported redirecting them to a list, but I can't find a relevant list to actually link them too. Anyway I am informing this project for any consideration you may have. QueenCake (talk) 17:17, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the notice. I have deprodded Eothain and turned it into a disambiguation page to distinguish between Tolkien's book character and the original character in the Jackson films. The other two (and also Théodwyn) have been redirected to Éomer where these character are further described in their fictional context as Éomer's family members. De728631 (talk) 18:23, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That seems like sensible decisions for Éomund and Lothíriel. However I question the necessity of keeping a page for Eothain, we now have the problem of a disambiguation page for two minor characters - neither of which deserve articles for themselves, and hence don't deserve a dab page either. If the page can't be redirected I would suggest sending it to AFD. QueenCake (talk) 19:09, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
On a closer look at WP:DAB it is allowed to list topics that don't have their own articles as long as there is a main article to link to where the disambiguation term is explained. That is the case for List of original characters in The Lord of the Rings film trilogy where Jackson's Éothain is is treated along other original movie characters. However, neither The Lord of the Rings nor Rohan make any mention of Éothain, and rightfully so.
So I think we should redirect the page to the list of original characters and explain that this Éothain is different from the book character. Because of the popularity of the films Éothain is a valid search term that should be covered by Wikipedia and that list seems to be the right place. De728631 (talk) 19:35, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not exactly sure if Éothain is a valid term (he was a kid who appeared for a couple of minutes), but a redirect to that list seems good enough. While you can list topics without their own articles on a Dab page, I don't believe one that solely consists of that is a good enough inclusion. I do recommend redirecting it. QueenCake (talk) 17:52, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I have now redirected Éothain to the list. De728631 (talk) 19:42, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you wrote that Numenor is a continent?

Hallo, I'm Italian; I write in the name of the Italian Wikiproject called "Progetto Tolkien". We don't know if classify Numenor as a island or as a continent. We know that you have wrote that Numenor could be a continent (in the template on your page). But why? What are sources? (We must be sure it's the right solution). Thank you and I'm sorry for my english. --Innocenti Erleor (talk) 13:11, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Númenor legend is based on the Atlantis myth, according to J.R.R. Tolkien: Architect of Middle Earth by Daniel Grotta, Tolkien: A Look Behind The Lord Of The Rings by Lin Carter Númenor was an 'island continent' GimliDotNet (talk) 21:44, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you --Innocenti Erleor (talk) 13:49, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Il·lustrations of Tolkien characters

Hi all; GimliDotNet suggested me to write here. In the wikiArS project with Llotja school of art, in witch I'm involved, the illustration student Jessica León had produced free licence images about Tolkien's characters. If someone wants to use them in any article you can found it here or here. --Dvdgmz (talk) 10:05, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I think these are great, I'd rather see these in the infoboxes that screen caps from the Jackson films. Especially as when the Hobbit is release we're going to get a deluge of updates I think as interest is piqued. GimliDotNet (talk) 10:25, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we should feature any one particular artist's rendition of a character in the infobox. There are no original depictions, and everything that has been done has simply been an artistic interpretation of what is presented in the text. I think what we have at Gandalf, Aragorn, and Frodo Baggins is what should remain: no image in the infobox, and thumbnails of different adaptations (including from Jackson's films) down in the body where the adaptations are discussed. —Akrabbimtalk 14:25, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mind having images in the infoboxes but such images should come from a professional artist and be notable on their own. Pictures like Tttom's Tolkien Calendar images or screenshots from any of the movies will support the articles by adding a significance of the subject beyond the original texts. That said, I would not include artwork from drawing classes or whatever else fan-art can be found in Commons:Category:Middle-earth characters. De728631 (talk) 19:45, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would rather avoid illustrations in the info box, since with a few exceptions from The Hobbit (whose copyright is jealously guarded by the Tolkien Estate), there are no originals from Tolkien's hand. Images in the info box would acquire something of a "official" character that is really not warranted. I would also continue the long-standing practice of placing film caps under "Adaptations", since the films often depart from the books. -- Elphion (talk) 20:31, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fan images

Goustien is again pushing to include fan art in the Middle-earth articles. Can we finally come to some consensus as to whether these are suitable for the articles. I for one think they are poor quality and nothing more than an attempt to push a favoured viewpoint. Any other opinions? GimliDotNet (Speak to me,Stuff I've done) 07:22, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm no great supporter of fan art. I added an image to Battle of Mirkwood only because it was already used in two related articles, but its removal would not diminish the articles. I would prefer to see judicious use of noteworthy art from published sources, and for this reason I inserted Tolkien's own design of the Eye of Sauron instead of the fan art versions in Sauron and Mordor. Where no authoritative artwork is available for certain iconic images such as heraldry, I suggest we accept fan art versions that are clearly based on Tolkien's verbal descriptions (e.g., the White Hand of Isengard). Goustien (talk) 07:59, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Goustien that we should prefer professional artwork which has been published elsewhere. Unfortunately that will require a non-free-use rationale for most images unless the creator published or uploaded them under a free license. See e.g. User:Tttom's images which have been featured in the Tolkien Calendar. But I won't mind using high-quality fan art where there's no alternative. Although these images should have explanatory captions like "drawn after Tolkien's writings" or "An artist's rendition of Dol Guldur" so they won't be mistaken for first-party material. De728631 (talk) 18:43, 21 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion discussion

File:JRR Tolkien signature - from Commons.svg is being discussed for deletion at Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2012 August 4‎. De728631 (talk) 15:56, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Themes of The Lord of the Rings

Does anyone have access to War and the works of J.R.R. Tolkien by Janet Brennan Croft? Following the IP's thoughts about Tolkien and World War II at Talk:Themes of The Lord of the Rings#Second world war it would be interesting to have some thematic analysis for the War of the Ring. De728631 (talk) 12:39, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Reception of J. R. R. Tolkien

I looked at this page specifically for a summation of literary criticism Tolkien's works. The section Reception of J. R. R. Tolkien#Literary_criticism, however, only mentions mainstream criticism in passing and only to dismiss it with a quote that no mainstream critic was qualified to critique Tolkien, which is an odd defense of the work, if that's what that section was meant to be. Yet as Wikipedia strives to be as lacking in bias as possible, a good summary of what mainstream literary critics have to say (and perhaps another line explaining the quote that dismisses them) is called for. Pandarsson (talk) 11:29, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have now quoted Edmund Wilson on Tolkien so the reader gets an idea what Lobdell refers to. And I agree that we should expand this particular section. De728631 (talk) 13:55, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mythopoeic Society

The revision history of this article shows that certain regular and new editors are actually members of this society (cf. [1]). See also the statement at Talk:Mythopoeic Society. While I currently don't see any obvious COI in the article's text we might want to check the content from time to time in terms of NPOV and other guidelines. De728631 (talk) 13:38, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

image:TheHobbitFilm13Dwarves.jpg

File:TheHobbitFilm13Dwarves.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.128.252 (talk) 04:14, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Middle-earth redirects

I wonder if we need this category at all. While it was useful back in 2007 when it was established, the current approach of administrative WikiProject categorisation is talk page tagging with a project's assessment template. I have recently added a redirect class to {{WikiProject Middle-earth}} to classify a bunch of articles that had been rated NA-class until then. So instead of having two similar categories Middle-earth redirects and Redirect-class Tolkien categories I think we could have a bot replace the old article side redirect templates with an instance of {{WikiProject Middle-earth}} on the talk page. That way we would have an up to date overview on redirects by taking a look at the assessment template on the project page. De728631 (talk) 18:52, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox images?

I asked about this at Talk:Gandalf but was directed here. I was wondering why the none of the infoboxes in articles about LOTR characters have images, although this is done for most other literary characters. A few examples are Sherlock Holmes, James Bond, or any of the characters in the Harry Potter universe. I understand there's a preference against using images from Peter Jackson's movies, but there are plenty of well-known illustrations of these characters we could use that aren't from the movies. Zeromus1 (talk) 06:54, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again :). Some of the characters do have images, Fëanor for instances has an (in my opinion a rather crappy) illustration. The avoidance of Jackson images in the infoboxes is two fold, one is they are just one interpretation of the character and two the fair use policy is rather strict - we are discussing literary characters, not film characters. They do however get fair-use in the adaptation sections where the film portrayal is discussed. This is a general guide, I don't know how pages like Harry Potter (character) get away with it, possibly because the Tolkien focused editors here are rather more stuffy than the potter fan boys ;) GimliDotNet (Speak to me,Stuff I've done) 07:04, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I notice it was suggested in a discussion above to use images from the Tolkien calendars. I would support that idea. But do the same issues apply to those as well? Zeromus1 (talk) 07:10, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I would prefer in this order Tolkien's images -> Illustrated book versions -> Illustrated artists version (inc. calendars). I think the issue is always copyright though. I will leave it to others with more experience to discuss those issues though. GimliDotNet (Speak to me,Stuff I've done) 07:15, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The main issue here is in fact copyright. I.e. most previously published artwork is non-free and would have to be commented on in the articles instead of merely serving as a decoration. One requirement for non-free content is that it "is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." But I think many Tolkien articles would benefit from an illustration to help the general reader understand the concept and context. And especially for the lesser known topics we could use professional images to point out popular impact. De728631 (talk) 16:51, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so how do we decide which images to use? Zeromus1 (talk) 06:43, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think De's post makes the answer fairly clear. Most freely usable artwork is not of sufficient quality, and the copyrighted art should be used only within the body of the article where that art is specifically addressed. Therefore, in general, neither will be appropriate for an info box. For art within the article body, I would suggest floating possibilities on the talk page before incorporating it into the article, simply because people have strong opinions about this. -- Elphion (talk) 12:45, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I don't mind putting non-free images into the infobox when there's a commentary in the text part of the article. We should however credit the artist in the caption and possibly point out any special circumstances. E.g. book illustrations, art that has been exhibited somewhere, etc. De728631 (talk) 12:54, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've never understood why people want to add non-definitive images to the info box. I have no problem adding them to the article, as long as they are properly credited (which should make clear that they are not "official"). -- Elphion (talk) 12:58, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What is "non-definitive"? Even if we used images drawn by Tolkien himself (J. R. R. Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator) they would still be his personal interpretation of the matter. So in lieu of them we may as well use interpretations by professional artists. It works well for other articles, e.g. Tin Woodman, Robinson Crusoe or Sherlock Holmes. De728631 (talk) 13:32, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone ahead and added an image to the infobox in the Smaug article. I hope that isn't too forward of me. This illustration was painted by Tolkien himself, so it's as definitive an image as could exist. Zeromus1 (talk) 04:41, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

New stub templates

For those who do stub tagging at existing or new pages, Fortdj33 has created two new stub templates: {{MiddleEarth-stub}} and {{MiddleEarth-char-stub}}. These are more specific than the old {{Tolkien-stub}} which refers to the legendarium in general. De728631 (talk) 17:29, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Deprecated template and category

The old talk page template {{ME-disambiguation}} has been superseeded by {{ME-project|class=dab}} since I have replaced all instances of the former. Consequently Category:WikiProject Middle-earth disambiguation pages is now unpopulated. I propose therefore that both the template {{ME-disambiguation}} and its automated category be deleted. If noone objects I'm going to list them at Tfd and Cfd. De728631 (talk) 18:47, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I've now nominated the template at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2012 September 21. De728631 (talk) 17:02, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination of The Hobbit (1985 film) for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article The Hobbit (1985 film) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Hobbit (1985 film) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article..

This film is the Soviet ballet-style adaptation. MatthewVanitas (talk) 22:29, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/The Hobbit Original Complete Soundtrack needs help getting approved

Greetings, we have a draft article Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/The Hobbit Original Complete Soundtrack where the author isn't yet prepared with proper Sources, etc. If anyone else thinks this is worth having, some quick mentorship would be appreciated. Thanks! MatthewVanitas (talk) 05:18, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is already present in the article on the 2003 video game; apart from that that raw title is very disambiguous. I've left a note at the creator's talk page where I suggested a redirect to the game article. De728631 (talk) 15:25, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

New sister project proposal

Hi, you may want to see this proposal for new project based on fiction. --213.155.255.148 (talk) 19:51, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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