Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests

Clarification request: Claritas' request for a clean start

Initiated by Claritas § at 07:40, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Claritas (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Statement by Claritas

I have been refused a clean start by the Arbitration Committee, although I am under no active editing restrictions or Arbitration sanctions.

The justification for this refusal given by Coren is that my unblock was under certain conditions. This is not the case - there are no restrictions logged against me at the page on editing restrictions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Claritas (talk • contribs)

• Just to clarify, I would accept an indefinite ban on XfD participation on a new account. I will not edit under an account which can be directly linked to this account by the average user, because too many people dislike me for me to have a pleasant working environment. Claritas § 14:34, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

• • I encourage all arbitrators to review a clean-start when I was still banned. This is how I can and would edit. Content work, reviews, nothing else.

• • SilkTork is right that I am not under any restriction. I offered a topic ban when I was unbanned, but there was no need for it. I fail to see how my XfD activity is contentious (quite a lot of them get closed as delete, you know). It has not been brought up on any of the drama boards. I was banned for block evasion, and blocked because I hoaxed.

• • My behaviour may seem irrational, but I cannot edit productively with this account because of the way I used it before and the fact that I feel my reputation is dirt. I plead with you to understand that a clean start would be in everyone's interests. It would be in your interests because I wouldn't be causing AC level fuss, and it would be in my interests because I'd get more done and would feel comfortable editing Wikipedia. --Claritas § 00:09, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

• I will not seek a clean start. I think I agree with SilkTork's reasoning, in that the community is best posed to monitor my activity, not the arbitration committee. I will change my username instead, and avoid AfD. Sorry for causing so much fuss. Claritas § 10:04, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Carrite

• I've been very loosely in a mentorship position with Claritas. I've been in touch with Claritas off-wiki with regards to his latest dustup at AfD which has prompted the decision to change user names. Claritas feels he is being drawn in to previously existing controversies based on his user name alone and wants the chance to contribute to the encyclopedia in peace. I advised him that this seemed like a good idea and that he should steer clear of nominating anything further to AfD regardless of whether or not he made a user name change. He is not approaching the use of a new name dishonestly, he earnestly wants to terminate the first name and the associated baggage with it so that he can edit with the second in peace. My understanding is that this is a permitted reason for a name change and I'm at a loss as to why he was instantly blocked for attempting to make good faith edits under an alternative name. I urge the new committee to reconsider this matter, even if the solution includes a topic ban of the new account from AfD and absolute termination of the first. Carrite (talk) 21:52, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

In short: the committee needs to Assume Good Faith here. This is not an attempt to sock around a block, it's a restart where one is needed... Carrite (talk) 21:55, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

• @Volunteer Marek. My understanding was Claritas was primarily interested in a simple name change, rather than a formal clean start — I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong. Since he previously socked around a block, even this was seen in the worst possible light. I hope he's allowed to lose the old name and hope he learns to let the cruft lie and to concentrate on positive improvements. I hope also that the new Arb Com not only makes this possible, but puts teeth behind it by banning AfD nominations, no matter the user name. The problem here isn't dishonest socking around a ban, it's Claritas again stirring up a bee's nest by attempting to bring crufty in-universe material to AfD. (Just let that shit sit, my friend, it's not worth caring about...) Carrite (talk) 23:26, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

• @Hahc21. You've got it. Add a proviso that the clean start account is to be the only account and have Claritas affirm that he will not sock and you're home. Carrite (talk) 19:45, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

• General comment: Claritas's AfD nominations were not "bad" ones — far less controversial than those regularly hauled to AfD by The Usual Deletionist Suspects. "Buckets of in-universe fan cruft from sci-fi," I guess we could characterize the pieces he challenged that way. Probably 75% of his nominations would end as Deletes, I'm guessing. So he has not been abusive of the process, per se. The problem is that there is a contingent of fanboy types that want to take him out for challenging the notability of their treasured articles... The key here is to call it a draw: Claritas needs to concentrate on making positive contributions to the Serious Encyclopedia and to leave the Compendium of Popular Culture alone. It's hard for him, but that's what needs to happen. Carrite (talk) 19:53, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Volunteer Marek

How about just a username change, rather than clean start? That way the new name will link to the old username and anyone who really cares should be able to find it, but there won't be any automatic stigma attached to the username.

And I can't believe that stupid Asmodeus D&D article was actually kept. Tells you something about the project's priorities.Volunteer Marek 22:02, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Rich Farmbrough

Since Claritas would be under the restriction to steer clear of XfD, per WP:CLEANSTART or risk having the new account linked with the old, it would seem that disallowing a clean start achieves nothing.

It should be noted, of course, that it is not in ArbCom's purview to allow or disallow a clean start. "You are not required to notify anyone of your clean start." and "no one can grant permission for a clean start."

I think the committee should avoid ruling on this matter, and should rescind any previous ruling. Should Claritas wish to clarify whether the wording of the policy includes unblock restrictions, they may ask anyone they wish for advice, but it would have no binding authority, it seems to me, unless it was a question asked of the community.

Rich Farmbrough, 00:09, 30 December 2012 (UTC).

To NewYorkBrad, I would have relatively little trouble with the policy stating that users under sanction were required to have Arbcom approval to restart (BASC might be a better group), however I cannot see where it does say that. It even supports my suggestion "you can ask a member of the Arbitration committee or the functionaries team for advice."

Secondly, on being "burned" I don't see this as a big problem. A user is problematic, does a restart and is problematic again. Unless this is serial we deal with the problematic user, very likely linking them with the original account.

Rich Farmbrough, 18:45, 30 December 2012 (UTC).

Comment by Mathsci

A significant proportion of Claritas' contributions since his unblock at the beginning of November have been to XfDs, contrary to the conditions to which he agreed. Even now his current username does not prevent him from moving his editing activities away from XfDs. Mathsci (talk) 00:48, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Comment by BOZ

When a particularly egregious case of a history of misbehavior occurs within the community, it is in the community's best interest to be able to keep an eye on that user. I noticed Claritas at AFD a few years ago, and while this account seemed to be pretty aggressive on fictional element articles, I suppose this is nothing unique. Then before long, it seemed like... gee... there were a lot more accounts with the same approach, and... on the same types of articles. Hmm, but I guess I did not think much of that until I found out that, oh, these were actually the same person, and some of these accounts were being used to change the course of the same AFDs, while others were being used to circumvent blocks once the earlier socks were found out. Whew. So then Claritas came out with this admission that the user was specifically doing this to mess with people and/or prove some kind of point. Then, after the ban was in effect, the user came back more than once, after short periods of time, to claim they had a change of heart and weren't going to misbehave anymore. I'm sure if I wanted to take the time to go back and re-read all the history, I cound find even more unsavory stuff.

So, needless to say, I was very uneasy when the user came back in October to say they had put their past behind them. The standard offer was put up to a community vote on whether to allow Claritas back, and consensus said we would give the user another shot (but not without reservations). I decided not to oppose, because despite my concerns, if this user was sincere, I did not want to assume bad faith. At first things were pretty quiet, with the user being unblocked at the beginning of November, but less than two weeks later, and after assuring us that Claritas was here to work on article building (which, as far as I can tell, has yet to happen - at all), AFD participation resumed, and two weeks after that, AFD nominations resumed in earnest, with AFD being the sole form of pariticpation for this user since mid-December as far as I can tell. If Claritas actually had any intention of putting the community at ease by avoiding this account's number one problem area and doing actual work on articles, then this was very quickly forgotten.

This user strikes me as being very short on patience, with some deficiency in maturity and civility as well. These are not sufficient reasons alone to ban a user, but given this user's history I think the community has a right be concerned with their participation. It would be doing the community a disservice to have Claritas assume a new name that we would be unaware of, especially if they want to continue with the same sort of activity that they have since the unban. If Claritas sincerely wants a clean start, then let's call this a "false start"; get on with article building and get away from XfD, and I can guarantee your past will be quickly forgotten. BOZ (talk) 06:28, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Hahc21

A solution may be the next:

Claritas (talk · contribs) is offered a clean start under a new username which will be disclosed only to the Arbitration Committee. Claritas is hereby limited to edit only under the new account, and if he wishes to change the name of the one account he is allowed to use, he must receive prior permission from the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the new account is banned from XfD for a period not less than a year; violation of the ban will result in an indefinite block; the connection with the Claritas account shall be given as proof to support such block, which can only be performed by a sitting arbitrator as a discretionary measure.

Just some thoughts, though. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 06:53, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

@Carrite: I have made some tweaks; although, of course, it's in the committee's hands the final resolution of the situation. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 20:03, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

@AQFK: When he requested to be unbaned, he was recommended to stay away from XfDs, not banned from XfD. So, he did not violate any condition. As Claritas himself stated, he was unbaned under no restrictions. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 20:22, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

If Claritas was allowed to resume editing on the basis that they would stay away from AfD discussions, and they immediately violated that condition, why is Claritas not blocked? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:41, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Unless I'm missing something, Claritas should be blocked for violating their condition to stay away from AfDs. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:08, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Themfromspace

The request to change name should be denied. Due to Claritas' history with socking, this should be obvious. When we agreed to let him back in, we gave him a second chance. But we didn't give him carte blanche to evade scrutiny.

Ideally, the discussion should stop here, but some editors (mostly ideological opponents) are saying that Claritas has to keep away from XfD. Claritas was unblocked without any special conditions or prohibitions, just an encouragement to mentor with Carrite. The statement he made saying he could stay away from XfDs was never incorporated into his unblock provision. There were no special unblock conditions for him to violate, nor does it appear that editors at the unblock discussion expected him to return with an XfD prohibition.

Finally, arbitrator Jclemens absolutely needs to recuse himself from this discussion and keep his comments away from the arbitrators' discussion section. He is not neutral and his comments stem from an ideological disagreement rather than an objective look at the situation. Proving this point, he has been disruptive in XfDs created by Claritas, using ad-hominem smear attacks directed at him [1] [2] [3]. ThemFromSpace 00:45, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Claritas, considering your history, there was no way a CLEANSTART was going to be granted. Considering your profane email to the Committee after being told your cleanstart wasn't going to be allowed, do you honestly believe that asking publicly will have any different result? SirFozzie (talk) 11:07, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
• Claritas, you've been unblocked under the proviso that your behaviour would not return to that which led to your ban (including a great deal of socking); this self-evidently requires the community to be able to examine your behaviour and that you do not switch to an undisclosed account.

  In particular, you've swiftly ended up in the same trouble areas that led to your initial difficulties; switching accounts at that point (and so close after your unban) cannot be viewed as anything but attempting to evade scrutiny. — Coren ^(talk) 13:52, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

  • Carrite, the baggage Claritas carries isn't with the name of the account, but his behaviour around XfD – which he was quick to return to despite having been unbanned on the promise of concentrating on writing rather than engaging there. It's not a question of assuming good faith on Claritas's part but that the community needs to be able to evaluate whether its trust to allow him to return was well-placed; and that can't be done if he switches accounts.

    I'd be entirely willing to revisit the idea of allowing a clean start after a couple of months of good behaviour, but not this soon and not on the heels of his having gotten into a spat around XfD again. — Coren ^(talk) 02:21, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

• Claritas, your hands are so far from clean in this matter that I think the community should actively revisit the decision to unblock you, which was based on statements you made which are manifestly not true. You promised to "produce quality content in the future" and you volunteered that you were "happy to have an indefinite self or community imposed ban on XfD participation. I'm here to write." when in fact your recent contributions list is filled with fictional elements AfD participation, rather than content creation. In fact you renominated an article that you'd previously nominated as a sockpuppet My term on the committee is ending, so I will not need to formally recuse on any vote relating to this matter, but given that I and other fictional elements editors have been victimized by your previous sockpuppetry campaigns, I would indeed recuse if I were placed in such a position. Jclemens (talk) 23:09, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Carrite, your statement "The problem is that there is a contingent of fanboy types that want to take him out for challenging the notability of their treasured articles..." demonstrates an assumption of bad faith and shows you are manifestly unsuitable to act as a mentor to Claritas. The problem is actually that there aren't enough editors interested in improving popular culture content using sources that exist, and nominators who nominate multiple articles per day, ignore WP:BEFORE, and ignore WP:ATD-preferred options like merging create a situation where content that could be improved is instead regularly deleted because of the AfD-prompted race against time to prove notability. You're entitled to differ with my assessment of the situation, of course, but casting aspersions and blaming Claritas' victims for his misbehavior is not appropriate mentoring behavior. Jclemens (talk) 22:51, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
  • @Themfromspace--Carrite started the partisan discussion; I'm merely pointing out how inappropriate it was. I already stated I would be recused on any vote. As far as the examples of my properly applying scrutiny to Claritas goes, I am proud to have appropriately kept the focus on his history of partisan socking. The fact that you happen to agree with his take on many fictional elements shouldn't play into anything: he socked, got banned, came back, and went back to the same behavior and same topics that were public at the time when he was socking before. Unfortunately, your post shows a tendency to excuse inappropriate behavior in those with whom we agree--I've made a habit of being harder on those with similar interests and wikiphilosophies to my own, because no one can say I do so because of their viewpoints. If everyone would take such an approahc, we could keep the wikiphilosophies out of it, and just focus on inappropriate behavior. I think that would be a better outcome all around--wouldn't you agree? Jclemens (talk) 01:16, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
• No - behaviour is problematic. Claritas you won't be victimised if you don't go looking for trouble. AfD is a confrontational area where you are extremely likely to end up arguing with others. If you produce good content, the rest will follow and other concerns can be laid to rest. I am good wiki-friends with several editors I would regularly clash with at AfD, yet get on very cordially elsewhere. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:46, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
• Claritas: I didn't participate in the ArbCom discussions but because of the recentness of your unblock, and your rapid return to contentious areas, it was entirely appropriate to intervene in your attempt at a cleanstart.  Roger Davies ^talk 01:49, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
  • @Claritas: that's certainly something to think about for the future but my colleagues are unanimous that a clean start now would be too soon. In any case, who would police a secret topic-ban? It isn't realistic for ArbCom to do so.  Roger Davies ^talk 15:05, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
    • @Claritas: that seems the best way forward. I'll ask the clerks to close this now.  Roger Davies ^talk 10:18, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
• Concur with Coren, essentially. Claritas, I think you've got potential as an editor, and encourage you to focus on content work at this time. Risker (talk) 03:06, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
• Comments:
  • To Claritas: You were allowed to resume editing on the basis that you would stay away from AfD discussions and focus on content, but instead, you returned to participating in those discussions and making contentious AfD nominations almost immediately. This would have been an issue, but might have been surmountable, if you had participated in AfD in a routine way, but you returned to the specific practices within AfD that made your participation problematic in the past. You haven't explained, either on this page or in your e-mails to the Committee, why you did this—and it's not as if you were addressing some issue of supervening importance that might conceivably have justified invoking IAR, such as a serious BLP problem that no one else was addressing. I agree with my colleagues that if you want to continue editing at this point, you really need to focus on content for awhile. If you do focus on content and you encounter problems not of your making in that context, I might be willing to reconsider a cleanstart request from you at that time, though I can't speak for my colleagues. You can also consider the option of a rename.
  • To Rich Farmbrough: Although you are right that ordinarily an editor may effect a cleanstart without anyone's permission, it was decided some time ago that an editor who is under an active sanction must consult with ArbCom first. There were too many prior incidents of users under sanctions or restrictions creating a new account and using it to make edits that would clearly have violated the sanction or restriction if made under the original account name. I am probably more open to allowing such restarts where an editor really does show evidence of wanting to turn over a new leaf, than are some of my arbitrator colleagues—but my colleagues can probably point to more than one instance in which we and the community have been burned before. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:27, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
• My understanding is that this is a community blocked user who the community unblocked. The user is not under sanctions, and there were no restrictions imposed in the unblocking, other than encouragement to seek mentoring: [4]. Users often write to the Committee for advice regarding a clean start. When a previously problematic user contacts the Committee regarding a clean start, we may advise against it as that heads off any potential future problems. However, I'm not sure ArbCom has the authority to forbid a clean start for a user not under any sanctions. In this case, the user has apparently re-entered the topic area that caused problems in the first place, and there is some genuine concern that the user would not make appropriate use of a clean start. Though there appears to be a lack of clarity regarding protocol in this situation, sometimes decisions have to be made which are in the best interest of the community even if there is no precise authority for such decisions. It may be helpful to have further discussion on this matter to see if the community are willing to explicitly grant the Committee authority to forbid users from creating new accounts when the Committee feels that such a restriction is in the best interest of Wikipedia. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 21:23, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Claritas commented (on his talkpage while his unblock request was pending, with the request that it be copied to ANI): "happy to have an indefinite self or community imposed ban on XfD participation. I'm here to write." I believe members of the community relied on this commitment in deciding to give him another chance. That doesn't mean it's an eternal and unyielding commitment, if Claritas had posted an occasional "keep" or "delete" comment, or (for example) posted to an AfD of an article he had contributed to, I don't think anyone would have raised an eyebrow, let alone pressed a block button. But when Claritas returned almost immediately to the same type of contentious AfD participation that had raised problems in the past, an issue was created; and when he proposed to then start editing from a new account, an issue was created for our Committee, as the community would have know way of knowing about it. (That being said, personally I might not have blocked the account right away, but quietly kept an eye on it. That's because I'm notoriously the most mamby-pamby arbitrator, and it's hardly surprising that Coren and others didn't see things that way given his prior history.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:31, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
    • I'm not advocating for the user, I'm just not sure the Committee has the authority to forbid a clean start under these conditions. The user has not been subject to ArbCom sanctions, and is currently under no community sanctions. Neither the clean start policy nor ArbCom policy appears to grant the Committee the authority to deny a clean start in this situation. I am informed on the Committee email list that standard practice is to deny a clean start to any previously sanctioned user, and that the clean start policy page is lagging behind such practice. As such, it may be time to update that page, and so I have started a discussion: Wikipedia talk:Clean start#Forbid clean start to previously sanctioned users? SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 22:05, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
      • The committee didn't forbid a clean start. An arbitrator, of his own volition, stopped it in its tracks once it had happened.  Roger Davies ^talk 22:09, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
      • (edit conflict) ****In areas like this, rigidly applied policies that don't allow for reasonable discretion should be avoided. The reason the Committee has a role in this circumstance is because if an editor wants to make a clean start, he or she obviously can't convene a community discussion about whether he or she may do so. (Even if the sanctioned editor didn't mention the new username, the discussion would lead his or her erstwhile disputants or critics to start a hunt for it, which would be unhelpful for everyone.) Hence the confidential fact the sanctioned editor wants to start over needs to be addressed by a small group of editors entrusted with confidential information, and for better or worse, that's usually us. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:10, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
  • The area of concern for this user is apparently participation in AfD. Currently they are under no restrictions regarding participation in this area. Claritas is suggesting not just a clean break, but a clean break with a restriction on participation in the problem area. This seems a better situation that the one we have - though there is the difficulty of monitoring the participation of Claritas if a clean start is given. The only people who would know which account Claritas had moved to would be the Committee - and the Committee is not set up to monitor users. What appears on the surface to be a reasonable request is in fact unworkable. A clean start would need to be without restrictions otherwise it is not an appropriate clean start. I think a clean start is not appropriate for this user in the current circumstances, and while there are questions regarding the clean start policy, those questions can be discussed away from this clarification request. My advice to Claritas would be that the community are very forgiving of users who have erred in the past, have apologised for their conduct, and have gone on to do productive work. Making mistakes is not a sin - we all make mistakes, it is how we deal with those mistakes that is the mark of our character. The community respects a user who redeems their mistakes rather than tries to move away from them. If you show the community that you can do productive work, then we will support you in your Wikipedia career. My suggestion is that you A) indicate that you are no longer seeking a clean start; B) voluntarily stay away from participation in AfD for six months, and C) work on building content in articles. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:37, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Our pale, blue dot.

Our pale, blue dot. Good luck to all. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:24, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I think that some of us get too caught up in the various disputes on Wikipedia and neglect big picture. I don't remember who, but someone once said that at the end of our lives, few will say, "I wish I spent more working." Similarly, I don't think anyone will look back on their life and say, "I wish I spent more time arguing on Wikipedia". It's food for thought for keeping things in perspective. YMMV.

I'll also add that I think that Carl Sagan was an amazing person and scientist. If anyone's interested in getting his article up to WP:FA status, I'm more than happy to help. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:40, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 5 January 2013

Please change "have their own committee" to "have their own committees, since "have their own committee" sounds like there's one committee for lots of projects. 71.79.67.209 (talk) 07:32, 5 January 2013 (UTC)