Talk:Avatar

Balarama or Buddha

Reference number 27 clearly states that Buddha will be born in Kali Yuga. He may be considered by some as an avatar of Vishnu. But he is definitely not part of Dashavatara. Balarama and Krishna were born in Dwapara Yuga. The eight avatar is Balarama and the ninth is Krishna. If you visited Hindu houses during Navaratri festival, you will find dolls of various Gods being placed in steps (called kolu). There is a dasavatar dolls in almost all these kolus and each one of them has Balarama as an avatar. Hence I am modifying the list to include Balarama and removing Buddha from Dashavatara.

Hindi ?

I have removed Hindi from the first line of the article. Only Sanskrit is required; Hindi is not a liturgical language of Hinduism. However, my removal was reverted. on what rationale? 117.214.21.28 (talk) 14:45, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Because "Avatara" is not an alternate English language spelling of the word avatar in any dictionary. I have consulted the Unabridged Random Hhouse Dictionary of the English Language, and it does not give "Avatara." Nor do online dictionaries. See here and here. So while it may be found spelled like this, it is actually an incorrect spelling. And it is the job of Wikipedia to follow the correct form(s) of spelling in English. This is why I removed that portion. Dazedbythebell (talk) 15:22, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Also consulted the Oxford English Dictionary, Clarendon Press, Oxford (twenty volumes), and it also does not give the alternate English spelling "avatara." I have no problem with your removing the Hindu spelling, and left it as you have it. However the word should be bolded only as it appears in the English language on the English Language Wikipedia. Dazedbythebell (talk) 15:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

This is not an English dictionary entry; rather an article on a "technical term of Hinduism". I cannot come to terms with your insistence on using only the English term; the original Sanskrit term is also important. English Language Wikipedia does not mean each and every word that appears in it must be in linguistically pure English; it can have an English transliteration of the Sanskrit term. If your argument were to be taken universally in Wikipedia, we cannot even have articles on Hindu terms that do not have an English name. (A couple of references you could use - Besant, Annie "What Is an Avatara?" ISBN-1161548327; Chari, Srinivasa (1994) "Vaiṣṇavism: its philosophy, theology, and religious discipline" p.212 ISBN-8120810988). 117.204.94.105 (talk) 17:58, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm confused. The Sanskrit transliteration is there along with the Devanagari. I see no reason for redundancy. older ≠ wiser 18:42, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Bkonrad. The Sanskrit is already given at the top. And as it is currently, it is stated clearly as Sanskrit as it ought to be. Annie Besant (1847-1933) was using a transliteration of the Sanskrit before it had a standard English spelling, which it does now in both the Unabridged Oxford Dictionary and the Encyclopedia Britanica. Here I copy verbatim from The New Encyclopedia Britannica, 15th Edition, 2010: avatar, Sanskrit AVATĀRA ("descent"), in Hinduism, the incarnation of a deity... Also, in the 19th and early 20th century there were many ways to transliterate Eastern terms that were new to the West, before these were standardized, and when no English term existed. Dazedbythebell (talk) 15:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I myself only learned while doing this research that "avatar" is the right English spelling. And that avatāra is the proper transliteration from the Sanskrit. I doubt there was an English language spelling for it when Annie Besant was writing. Dazedbythebell (talk) 15:17, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

When i did a Google Books search for the string "Avatara" ([1]); i find many books that use the term in English language sentences. Do i need to cite one of them to include the term in the article. 117.201.253.121 (talk) 08:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

All this would establish are ways that the word is incorrectly spelled, by people mirroring one another, or that it once had another common spelling. However, this does not change the current proper spelling. Such alternate spellings would not belong in the lead paragraph of the article. If there was a consensus to do so a Known also as section could be included further down in the article. You could see how many people would be in favor of such a section if you feel this is that important a concern. Dazedbythebell (talk) 19:04, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand what is attemped here. To me it looks like this misspelling should belong to a "most common errors" section or something like this, although I doubt it is necessary. Hoverfish Talk 19:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The latinization of the Greek name for Hermes is "Ermis", for Aphrodite it is Aphroditi", for Iliad it is "Ilias" or "Iliada", for Odysseus (aka Ulysses) it is "Odysseas", for Socrates it is "Socratis", for Aristotle it is "Aristotelis", for Euclid it is "Euclidis" and I could list many more famous names and terms. However all these are latinizations of the Greek words, NOT the established English word. What good would it do if I tried to find books written that spell these names as the Greek sound would dictate and then claim they are valid alternate English spellings? Is it proper to correct English words by making them sound exactly like the Greeks pronounce the names? The same case is true here. Hoverfish Talk 21:46, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 3

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 12:34, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

---

Avatar → Avatara – Standard and appropriate Sanskrit term. 117.204.84.3 (talk) 19:52, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose -- the term in common use in English is Avatar. older ≠ wiser 21:08, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose -- the common English language spelling of this term, even in its Hindu sense, is as presented (Avatar). Dazedbythebell (talk) 23:04, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose -- Oppose as per Bkonrad & Dazedbythebell. Hoverfish Talk 23:09, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose -- WTF? Oppose as per Bkonrad & Dazedbythebell & Hoverfish.--Nemonoman (talk) 23:12, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. This encyclopedia is not written in Sanskrit. Those who want a Sanskrit wikipedia should go write one; those who wish to be accurate in representing Sanskrit will use avatāra. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:52, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose As per dictionary and encyclopaedias (cited in earlier move, please see above), common spelling is avatar. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 05:27, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
• Rest my case. 117.214.21.28 (talk) 14:43, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The Sankritised spelling in English should be used and not any other version

The reasoning is quite simple. These are Sanskrit terms that have been mutilated when used in other languages. So the Sankritised spelling will always be RIGHT and CORRECT despite what anybody else has to say. The purpose of any self- respecting encyclopedia should be to PRESERVE correctness instead of pandering to popular or "common spelling". If the encyclopedia shows the right spelling, people will in TIME mirror it. TheOnlyEmperor (talk) 11:07, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Heaven does not apply in this theological context

No published reliable source says that the Avatar is a descent from "heaven." This is a Christian concept that does not apply in this theological context in Hinduism. The Encyclopedia of Eastern Philosophy says, Skt., lit. "descent"; an incarnation of divine consciousness on earth. (The Encyclopedia of Eastern Philosophy and Religion, Shambhala Books, Boston, 1994). And the Oxford Dictionary says, The descent of a deity to earth in an incarnate form. (The Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1989). The Encyclopedia of Eastern Philosophy goes on to say, "According to the traditional Hindu view, it is Vishnu alone who is incarnated." (p. 25) Vishnu does not reside in heaven like Jesus does in Christian theology. In Hinduism heaven is a place between births, but the goal of life is moksha, after which perfection is reached and there is no residing of any such sort. Dazedbythebell (talk) 20:01, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Recent edit in Avatar

Hi Redtigerxyz, I saw the IP edit in Avatar before you reverted it. I did not revert because I am not sure if the part aboutDocetism is correct here. There is a citation of course, but the association of the term seems to me to be the opinion of E.G. Parrinder. I have never seen it mentioned in Hinduism that Krishna or Rama were pure spirits and not real persons in the flesh. The way it is writen, I think it is pushing this opinion as fact, or even confusing. Hoverfish Talk 08:55, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Rama and Krishna are regarded as human beings, real persons in the flesh who were born and died. I could not read all the three references, found one of them [2]: which says Incarnation is a permanent state, that is - Jesus never merges back into God the Father, but retains his existence. In contrast, Rama and Krishna in Vishnu-centric beliefs die and their spirit merges back into Vishnu, which compared to Docetism. The other Sheth is available on JSTOR. If we can get our hands on it, we can understand better what Sheth talks about the translation of avatar as incarnation. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 10:11, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

The "according to" makes it somewhat better. Still I find it misleading that in the section "Etymology and meaning" this association to Docetism is made, because that article makes it most central that the avatar is incorporeal, pure spirit, and the text given here seems to suggest exactly this: as different from the idea of God 'in the flesh'. This does correspond to p.111 of the book, which contains the only mention of Docetism I can locate. I feel this is more relevant to "Incarnation: similar conceptions in other religions", which BTW has been placed in the See Also section. Hoverfish Talk 11:33, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Ambiguous hatnote

The other part of the hatnote was recently added by Y12J, but I don't see why it shouldn't be there. It's better to have a specific, helpful hatnote than an unnecessarily ambiguous disambiguation link, which isn't the purpose of one. - M0rphzone (talk) 21:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

If it's systematic bias then it should simply be the disambiguation page. To add one more 'choice' is just as biased. I tend to agree that selecting the movie of all disambiguation choices is biased. However, let us try to reach a consensus here. For this is a very important term. Here are all the uses of the term. How can adding one more from this long list eliminate bias? Dazedbythebell (talk) 21:47, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I was just going to turn it into a link to the disambig instead of only referencing the Avatar movie. I'll just do that now. - M0rphzone (talk) 06:31, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Btw I'm sure you know there are a few primary topics with the most views (search results and page view counts/redirect counts also show it). Many others in the list were merely added to populate the disambig page. - M0rphzone (talk) 06:35, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

If it's all right with the film fans, a simple dab link is fine with me. Thank you. Hoverfish Talk 12:26, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

I also think the disambiguation is better. The problem with this term in the past is all the arguments that happen over which are important. The movie was there due to search results as I remember it. But I think the disambiguation is best. Dazedbythebell (talk) 14:30, 23 April 2012 (UTC)