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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by The Talking Toaster (talk | contribs) at 22:23, 22 May 2013 (→Peninsula? Really?: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Former good article nomineeEurope was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
February 26, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
March 5, 2008Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Former good article nominee

Economy of Europe

I think this would be in the economy section: Europe has a long history as the world's richest and most productive part of the world. At the time of Christ's birth is estimated western European output per capita was approximately 30% higher than the world average. Year 1500 had this advantage increased to 40%.[1] After the development of science and the Industrial Revolution in Europe grew its lead quickly, in 1700 produced an average European almost 70% more than world's average population, and in 1850 was taken over the entire 150%. Around the year 1900 was Western Europe's leading role as the world's most productive area has been taken over by the former European colony of the United States, but Europe has continued to belong to the world's richest, most productive and knowledge-producing regions.[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.103.205.2 (talk • contribs) 12 January 2011

Chinese Name Change

I deleted the following sentence from this page:

which is an abbreviation of the transliterated name Ōuluóbā zhōu (歐羅巴洲)

I did this because, I have never heard this term though I am a speaker of Chinese. I asked some native Chinese speakers, and they also had never heard this term. I have found any research indicating that the term 欧洲 is an abbreviation of 欧罗巴州, as the deleted sentence suggests, though 欧罗巴 is direct transliteration of the word Europe into Chinese. The word was used on the Chinese Language Wikipedia page refers to 欧罗巴 only as a transliteration for the Greek word "Europa." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agenbite (talk • contribs) 27 January 2012

Greece in Asia

Are the Greek Islands in the Aegean just off the coast of turkey considered Europe or Asia because if they're considered asia then Greece is partly in Asia--J intela (talk) 07:17, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

All greek islands are in Europe despite of the fact they re really next the turkish territory — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kisscool57 (talk • contribs) 09:04, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request on 13 March 2013

Hi! The main table in the "Political geography" section is not sortable. Can that be fixed? Thank you. 12.139.227.194 (talk) 21:17, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

 Done - Added 'class="sortbottom"' to the bottom Total box. --[[ axg ◉ talk ]] 22:08, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Political Geography

After looking at the third table in "Political Geography", I wondered why Republika Srpska was included in the list of "several dependencies and similar territories with broad autonomy". It seems like the following sentence, "Note that the list does not include the constituent countries of the United Kingdom, federal states of Germany and Austria, and autonomous territories of Spain and the post-Soviet republics as well as the republic of Serbia" could also include, or opt to not include, the political entities of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Why have it in there and not the other entity, and not the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina? On the other hand, all the other dependencies are not attached geographically to the nations of which they are dependent.

I guess what I'm saying is that the Republika Srpska seems to be one of two parts of a federation, rather than a territory with broad autonomy. The table should include either both parts, or neither of them. Paploo (talk) 01:34, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed it. It makes no sense to include it given the omission of the "constituent countries of the United Kingdom, federal states of Germany and Austria, and autonomous territories of Spain and the post-Soviet republics as well as the republic of Serbia." --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 01:34, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't bring WP:ARBEE-type disputes to this page. The United Kingdom and its constituent elements (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Island) are not comparable to recently created countries in Eastern Europe. Please do not delete entries from the table as that will only cause problems in the future. Please add extra countries in Eastern Europe if that is what you want. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 01:45, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The removal is based on reasoning it isn't an ethnic matter. Another editor already expressed concern over the matter with legitimate concern. I apologize, but Western European disputes are not somehow so prestigious that they can be discussed on the talkpage while Eastern European disputes cannot. Your claim that those examples are not comparable is not backed by any reasoning and is simply your personal feeling being pushed. Hell looking at the article they aren't mentioned once in the article let alone in the same table yet their described as countries in their respective articles. A bit odd. You failed to also address the omission of the "federal states of Germany and Austria, and autonomous territories of Spain and the post-Soviet republics as well as the republic of Serbia." --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 02:06, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As a humble reader not well versed in geography, might I ask why it is that the one is included but not the other? No obvious explanation jumped out at me from looking at the two articles. Is there a reason, or is this purely an omission, implying that the other should be included as well? Sławomir Biały (talk) 02:15, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I know you from elsewhere :) I agree that both should be listed as constituent territories, the republic and the federation, possibly with a footnote about Brčko District (as on list of sovereign states). Mathsci (talk) 02:34, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have added the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I hope that's OK. Mathsci (talk) 02:54, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Respond to the concerns of arbitrary omissions above otherwise feel free to add them to the list. Again I remind you that you do not own the article. You can't set content based purely on your personal liking while blindly reverting others' edits. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 02:57, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I just did what Sławomir Biały suggested. It seemed very sensible. Wny not ask him? Perhaps I should mention that a while back Rejedef (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) persistently objected to the use of the term Eastern Europe in this and other articles on Europe, claiming it was derogatory. He was indefinitely blocked by Floquenbeam after being reported at WP:ANI by Jayjg. Mathsci (talk) 04:02, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
...and Paploo's suggestions seemed "very sensible" to me. Please stop stonewalling by refusing to fully respond to the arbitrary omissions. You have thus far simply suggested I only "add extra countries in Eastern Europe" to this cherry picked list. Either the two entities are removed or the arbitrary omissions that are noted in the article ("the constituent countries of the United Kingdom, federal states of Germany and Austria, and autonomous territories of Spain and the post-Soviet republics as well as the republic of Serbia") are included in the table as well. I have no idea why you bring up this Rejedef individual as it does nothing to help progress this discussion. I have to point out that it was you who brought up this emphasis on Eastern Europe in your edit summary, on this talkpage, and on my talkpage. I've stated that this is not a forbidden topic simply because it has an Eastern European aspect and that this issue was also a concern of another editor. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 05:30, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I also fail to understand why the constituent states of Bosnia and Herzegovina are on this list. Everything else is a dependency or (the Aland islands and Svalbard) has a unique status (as opposed to say two states in a federation) guaranteed by an international agreement. CMD (talk) 22:01, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It can be done either way. Either both there or both absent. The list of sovereign states by comparison has a very clear format. An alternative to the current version is to remove the two entries in the third table, but add an explanatory footnote for Bosnia-Herzegovina, mentioning the three constituent parts: the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina; Republika Srpska; and the smaller administrative unit Brčko District (i.e. the same format as the list article). I agree that in retrospect the appearance of the constituent parts looks odd in the third table, because everything apart from the two constituent parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina is some form of smallish island or peninsula. So putting that information in a footnote in the first table and not listing the constituent parts in the third table looks optimal.

I also looked back to see how the third table was created. In December 2010, there were only two tables, with neither constituent part mentioned. The second and third tables were created on 3 May 2011 by Chipmunkdavis.[1] The entry for Republika Srpska was added[2] on 30 September 2011 by an editor fairly obviously from there.[3]. Looking back over edits in 2011, Chipmnkdavis, it is frightening to see the proportion of edits from now banned editors like Polgraf, Comtesse de Mingrele, Rejedef, etc.

So an optimal solution seems to be to remove the two entries from the third table and add a new footnote R for the entry Bosnia-Herzegovina in the first table. That should keep everybody happy. Mathsci (talk) 23:14, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the entries and created the footnote. Mathsci (talk) 23:47, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
An issue solved and another created. The footnotes for the sovereign countries table deal with geographies and populations. I see no reason why Bosnia and Herzegovina should in particular have a footnote describing its autonomous parts while other countries do not. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 23:52, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Images

Nowadays, we're tending to use bigger images than the thumbnail—where they're detail-rich—if they can fit reasonably against the vertical run of the text. I've been bold and put the big clickable map at the top, not the bottom, of the "Definition" section (which alone is better in a large range of window-widths, I think) and enlarged the tiny displays of three very intricate maps in the same section.

Revert if you wish, but is there in feedback on this?

I'd also like to go through making quite a few more images a little larger, and shifting lefts to rights where it seems to work. May I do that? Tony (talk) 09:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The sacking of Suzdal by Batu Khan in 1238, during the Mongol invasion of Europe.
We're using big images when they need to be bigger. If there is nothing to be gained, there's no point making them bigger. If a reader is interested, they can click through to see it on a scale they could not see on this article. If they're not interested, an intrusive image won't help, and may disrupt reading on different monitor sizes. This article currently has large issues regarding image placement and overlaps on my small monitor, so it's likely worse for those with widescreens. I also don't see where images would benefit from being moved to the right. On the contrary, there's a huge deal of right alignment already. CMD (talk) 17:23, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The right–left thing is messy in some places, and squashes text between them on narrow window-widths. Are you taking into account that readers use a large range of window-widths?

I don't see what is intrusive about a 240px image vs a 220px image. The more important problem is that some of the images are tiny given their rich detail—that makes them purely decorative, not informative. Those with slow connections can wait considerable time to access the larger original page for an image, and those with smaller screens can have difficulty in seeing original images, which are sometimes huge? The image here, squashed down to 160px, is dysfunctional, although it might be pretty in a postage-stamp sense. What on earth the subject is can't even be squinted at, and the caption has three words per line, which is very ungainly. If there's a problem fitting pics in at functional size, there are too many pics. Tony (talk) 02:31, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

When the left-right format is squashing text, that's a sign that there are too many pictures in that section. I noted the different window widths in my post. You can argue 240 vs 220, but you could do the same for any small increments. In the end, it's a sliding scale which is being moved from the default, and 20px is not going to grant a great deal more detail. If you're worried about those with slow connections and those with smaller screen, then don't make this page take longer to load and have larger pictures. If they click through, they won't get the whole image if it's massive, but a scaled down version. That picture you posted is as you note, 160px, which is smaller than the default 220px, so it's easier to argue to expand it. In that case I would agree, although there must be a better image of the mongol invasion out there. As you note, there are indeed too many pictures. CMD (talk) 10:23, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, this topic presents an embarrassment of riches, and the temptation is always to shove more and more beautiful images in. Can we do an audit? (BTW, this is a significant problem for many key settlement articles, too, although usually 10–20% of the pics are a bit tawdry anyway, and no one blinks at their removal. Tony (talk) 12:15, 20 April 2013 (UTC) For example, a quick look now and I'm thinking of the following issues: Stonehenge is not working for me at all at that size (looks like the Chicago night skyline); Ggantija, maybe, but it's not in focus when you go to the original version, has no information there, and the reference to it in the text doesn't even use that name; the sky disk is stunning, but at that size could be from my dinner-plate collection next to the sink. I do think a more obvious supportive relationship between text and images should be considered; at the moment it looks like a grab-bag of choices. What do those images say about prehistoric Europe? It's hard to know what to do, but it's not working at the moment, is it. I note that there's a direct link to the main article on this topic, where these images could all be displayed at functional sizes. If I had to ration and make a decent size, both on the right side (where there's less danger of squashing the text with varying window-widths), I suppose I'd go for Stonehenge (a better pic??), and Vinca ... structure and art. That would contrast nicely with Apollo just below. I find the maps a real problem when tiny: they're just saying to the readers, "Hey, we have a map, but you'll need to go somewhere else for it". So why put it there at all? Accessibility issue, too. Tony (talk) 12:28, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
An audit sounds like a good idea. My issue with all right aligned images is that they will end up simply lying on top of each other, which isn't visually appealing and also creates the impression that they are separate from the text which they're meant to be supporting. I like maps, but as you say, they're little use unless they're very large. This article definitely has too many, as we don't want it to be a gallery of maps.
Anyway, I agree with your notes on Prehistoric Europe. I'm sure there'd be few objections to you making those changes. In the meantime, if you want an audit and have time to search for images, you should go ahead below. You'd be doing the article a favour. CMD (talk) 12:55, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Official alphabets in Europe:
  Greek
  Greek & Latin
  Latin
  Latin & Cyrillic
  Cyrillic
  Georgian
  Armenian

Would be good to set this image to the language section. Vrkach (talk) 07:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Secular populations

At the very bottom of the article it is mentioned that countries like Sweden, France and German have particularly high proportions of non-religious citizen -- the same can be said for Denmark, which, afaik is has a practically entirely non-religious population. A few people are religious but they are by far the minority and mostly consist of immigrants (both christian and muslim). I also noticed that no citations backup any of the claims. Please don't be fooled by the fact that a lot of people are members of "folkekirken" -- it has nothing to do with being religious (most member automatically join because their parents are members and very few ever think about it being possible to leave it).

Peninsula? Really?

Are we sure Europe is considered a peninsula? The only reference cited in this regard in the article that possibly suggests this is No. 19, the MSN Encarta article on Europe, and the only time it does this is when it says "the peninsular nature of Europe ...". Not only is that not the same as actually calling it a peninsula, is Encarta really that credible?

I've looked myself, but I haven't found any credible source as of yet that calls Europe a penisula. As such, unless someone can, I suggest removing any references to Europe being a peninsula from the article--The Talking Toaster (talk) 22:23, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ a b Madisson, Angus (2009). [http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/Historical_Statistics/horizontal-file_09-2008.xls Statistics on World Population, GDP and Per Capita GDP, 1-2006 AD].
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