Talk:Nigger

Old usage was also racist

Spinoza1111 10:13, 22 April 2006 (UTC)It's not true that the original use of the word was not offensive. Basically, with very few exceptions, Europeans that came into contact with blacks were racists, therefore their language was racist. Furthermore, to systematically class a variety of folks based on skin tone is least common denominator ignorant; the language manufactured the slavery, which was the commodification of different human beings and the treatment of different people, from different tribal groupings, alike.

Why this respect for long-dead blackbirders who needed a single term for people that could then be enslaved?

At no time was the word neutral. It expressed hatred and contempt in the very act of ignoring human personalities and human differences.

Let's see, you're a chief's son looking forward to the house of your bridegroom when a bunch of scurvy drunken red-faced Micks come along and says you is a nigger, and as such fit for nothing else than pick cotton in a the USA.

Sure, polite society in the early 19th century, characters out of Jane Austen, or Masterpiece Theater, oh so politely called 'em "niggers". But let's ignore the fancy clothes. Insofar as the wealth of these people was based on genocide, they were bums and racists. Fuck 'em.

I see you have a very neutral view of this situation. The initial explorers who first came into contact with black Africans were not on the whole racists. The slavery based racism you are descibing did not develop until at least 100 years after the first contact between sub-Saharan Africa and Western Europe. This is quite obvious from numerous primary sources, which speak about black people in very positive terms and even suggest the possible advantages of intermarrying with them to produce stronger offspring. If you are going to assert such a limited view of history, then at least provide a reliable source for it. --Jackyd101 21:19, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

>to systematically class a variety of folks based on skin tone is least common denominator ignorant< But it's no worse than your use of the word 'blacks'. Garik 01:24 13 May, 2006 (BST)

Should the article link to "cracker"?

There should be a link to the "white cracker" page. A page which, unlike this one, proudly displays a photo of a cracker.

Should a photograph of a nigger/s be posted?

Many entries on Wikipedia include a photo to help people better comprehend the meaning of the entry. Should a photograph of a nigger/s be submitted for this entry? Any questions, comments? Spookwaffe

Yes. With all due respect, that is the dumbest question I've ever heard. dbtfz^talk 06:27, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

• I don't think that we should add a picture of a negro because the word nigger has been used by white people to refer to other whites (both in negative and positive senses). It has also been used by people to refer to dark-skinned people in general who don't necessarily share physical characteristics with blacks in America. For example, it has been used in Australia to refer to aboriginals. Tamils could technically be called "niggers" because they're dark-skinned, even though they're from Southern India. I also think it's very obvious what the word means when it says that the word nigger refers to black-skinned people. This makes such a picture unnecessary, as well.--Primetime 14:32, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Why is nigger "controversial"? It's offensive, end of story.

Who would be a good nigger to post a picture of?

okay smarty pants ;) , ==Muhammad Ali Misquoted== according to the article on Muhammad Ali the following is a misquote "In 1967, Muhammad Ali explained his refusal to be drafted to serve in the Vietnam War by saying, "I got nothing against no Viet Cong. No Vietnamese ever called me 'nigger,'"."

what he actually said is in the following excerpt[?]

"It was also in this same year that he refused to serve in the American army during the Vietnam War as a conscientious objector, because "War is against the teachings of the Holy Koran. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers." Ali also famously said "I ain't got no quarrel with those Vietcong." (This is often misquoted as "No Vietnamese ever called me a nigger)". Ali was stripped of his championship belt and his license to box, and was sentenced to five years in prison. The sentence was overturned on appeal four years later, by a unanimous decision of the Supreme Court."

did he serve 4 years in prison, if he did wa he compensated for having been "wrongfully" emprisoned, also I am curious to know on what grounds the Supreme Court overturned his sentence ! I hope it's not just because of popular opinion ! (would be unfair to the unpopular people who did hard time for the same thing !) ~~wikipedia at domn.net~~

"For example: using "the N-word" in place of "Nazi" would rob younger generations of the full gravity of the Holocaust." Isn't this opinion? Genjix 13:02, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

should the question 'Should a photograph of a nigger/s be posted?' be removed from this talk page because it's such a stupid question?

Yes.

Archive

• Talk:Nigger (word) Archive 1: July 2002-January 2004

Recent Revisions

I'd like to get a better idea of where Administrators stand on the n-word being used as a positive or in a lighter sense. It is a precarious word to use, but in that same idiom, it is what has made the term open for satire (as in Chapelle's Show or the Boondocks). All things considered, someone like Richard Pryor would never have had the career he did if he had tried to avoid using the word. And, I have known particular cases where wiggers have taken the term used towards them as a sign of acceptance, and thus, seen it as a positive. I realize an earlier statement with the same sentiments was deleted, either because it wasn't placed well or because it was a touchy point; however, I believe the article should pay some respect to the fact that the word can be used in a lighter or comedic sense, and even to some a positive, outside of simply the "popular culture section". The "New revisionism" portion should include it as well, or there should be a new section altogether, to drive the point that many who use the word can be using it in a less serious manner. It seems the word is perhaps being overthought to the point of driving people crazy. 66.251.25.105 05:22, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Pedantic point but nonetheless....

I believe that E.S Nigger Brown was an international Rugby League player, not Rugby (this term usually signifies Rugby Union in Australia)

Whites are better than niggers?

This word was created to describe a group of people which was defined by race, so how can it ever not be racist? It is racist in all of its usages. Marc, you are incorrect: it does not come from the word Negro.

I want to ask all of you why you are pretending that "Nigger" means anything but "a Black person"? It has always meant that, it has never been "legitimately" used any other way, and denying that it's sole purpose is to describe Black People simply muddles the truth. I have never been called a nigger in any other context, and do not ever expect to.

Not only is the word a tool of racism, it is the primary tool of racism. Denying that it is such is like denying that you breathe.

Juan 11:04, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

The term is only really racist when another descriptive word is placed infront of it. So If someone said "You stupid Nigger" that would be racist but If someone said "I saw a Nigger" that wouldn't be racist. If someone done a impression of a Stereotype Black person that would be racist. So anyway if "Nigger" came from "Negro" which means "Black" is the word "Black" really a racist term? --User:Marc 12:46, 06 September 2005 (GMT) ---

• Your logic is flawed. All of the uses of the term you mentioned would be racist. --Alabamaboy 00:14, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

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• Your logic is flawed. The colour "Black" is not racist. --User:Marc 3:08, 6 September 2005 (GMT)

• Troll. Garglebutt / (talk) 11:16, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Ok then the term Nigger was a misspelling of the country Niger were the black slaves were mostly from. It is like caling a person from China, Chinese! It is logic! Just because it is describing a race of people doesn't mean it is racist. And Garglebutt just because your opinion is different to mine doesn't make me a Internet Troll.

  Uh, yeah.  It does...

Nigger is a racist word because of its history. It was used to refer to african-americans when they were under bondage of slavery and Jim Crow. White people who use it today usually have pejorative intent. --Defenestrate 18:50, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

The primary tool of racism is a little law called a ban of hate crimes. (you can be shot down here in the edmonds WA hood for saying nigger but thats not a hate crime(deadmonds has a hood ha ha ha ha))

Hagan / UN / Toowoomba II

[Earlier contributions on this topic may be found above.]

I've removed, pending documentation, the following sentences, which are unsupported on the Web except by WP:

Unfazed, Hagan took the case to the United Nations, where he found a more sympathetic forum. The UN ordered that Toowoomba Council change the name. Toowoomba Council chose to ignore this demand, as did the Federal Government.

Even if some sort of documentation can be found, it should still almost certainly be reworded: it is implausible that the Security Council would even entertain this, and if any other UN body thinks it has authority to do anything that remotely approaches "ordering" anything (beyond coffee and Danish [wink]), it will make very interesting reading. --Jerzy 09:44, 2004 Jan 13 (UTC)

Well, what i changed, & what i wrote in this section, were without benefit of slogging through the 33kB of the page. The page history may disclose the order in which i realized the accuracy of my fear that old discussions were hidden under the bulk of newer ones. The references above serve to clarify considerably, but i'll at least mull further before trying to apply them to better stating the events, for the article. --Jerzy 06:44, 2004 Feb 2 (UTC)

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It is offensive because it referes back to the enslavement of many black people's ancestors

Etymology II

[Earlier contributions on this topic may be found above.]

The following 'graph moved more or less at its contributor's request:

Moved from Etymology I

The specific origin, or unabridged (i.e., complete) (etymology), of the term, "nigger," according to "The New Oxford Unabridged Collegiate Dictionary," can be traced back to the Greek word nekra, or nekros... etc etc. Better look for that 'dictionary,' Wikipedians! You've been hoaxed. The whole opening of this article is spurious, edited in by Anonymous User 209.240.205.63 with a non-existent dictionary.I am deleting it, as it's also tacky. Wetman 10:04, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC) (Sorry to burst in at the top, but this is important... Delete this when the issue is resolved.)

AS far as the etymology of this word, I believe it came from Sanskrit actually. The "Aryan race" that conquered India 8000 years ago and formed the ruling class of India for thousands of years until the Muslim invasions. The word "Nigger" is actually derived from the word "Naga" which means snake people and was commonly used in reference to the so called Dravidian peoples indigneous to India who worshiped the snake deity and were dark skinned.

Later (not Necessarily Resulting) Discussion

Has anyone actually checked this highly unlikely derivation from nekros? I will do it soon as I get home and consult my dictionaries. Adam 04:45, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The etymology seems bogus. The Greek words for "black" involve the stem melan- (whence melanin and the fourth humour, melan choler), and nekros means "corpse", not "diseased". Also, the Latin niger sounds nothing like the Greek nekros, and my Latin etymological dictionary makes it clear that they aren't connected. —MIRV (talk) 05:06, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Surely it comes straightforwardly from the Latin niger via Spanish negro. Adam 05:15, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I fully agree, but I can't find any evidence that the Latin niger comes from the Greek nekros, which specifically denotes death and dying. I still think the derivation from the Greek, at least, is bogus. —MIRV (talk) 05:20, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Also, the dictionary from which this etymology is supposedly derived seems to be a fake; there are no references on Google, and none of the online booksellers carry it. —MIRV (talk) 05:30, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Why do we need to say it comes via French? The French for black is noir. The etymological chain is most likely to be niger - negro - nigra - nigger. There was plenty of contact between Spanish America and the Old South, so I don't see why a French connection is necessary. Adam 05:55, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The word could have come via either language -- there's a French word, nègre, that translates roughly to "nigger" -- so perhaps both should be noted, unless someone has a definitive reference that can decide the question firmly? —MIRV (talk) 07:41, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

(How did I miss that?) Someone has helpfully quoted the OED on this talk page. That should settle it for now. —MIRV (talk) 17:37, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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Slang, streetwise, and Rap

THis article couold use some Slang context, streetwise use, and Rap culture use of the word. JDR

Yes, particularly that its rejection has became a part of the cultural wars, and a contradictory one since blacks are allowed to use it, but not whites.

White kids use 'nigga'

User:68.123.237.104 said: I do not believe that white kids use "nigga" as a "term of endearment". Show some evidence. This is really quite true. I'm Asian and all my friends are non-black and we all commonly refer to each other with this term. Back in middle and high school, everybody used it. Kent Wang 15:40, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

User:67.165.78.163 has gone ahead and deleted the following:

In some high schools the word nigger has become so commonplace that even "wiggers" are referred to as "niggers" within their own social groups even use the word themselves. However, this is not the way it is used in all high schools.

I agree that this at least needs a rewrite and probably doesn't belong in the article, but I thought it ought to be posted to the talk page for discussion in case others think it belongs. Tom 19:04, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The cultural impact of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas must not be overlooked. It has transcended usual limits of videogame fame, so many boys (often very young/underage for its content level) have played it that "talkin' hood" is now the new cool. Therefore, if blacks call each other niggers, and San Andreas has popularised "black-ese", therefore this word is certainly not being used in an objectionable context, unlike, say, the current use of gay in an expression such as "that car is so gay!" Master Thief Garrett 09:17, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, in an explicable way, one might say that San Andreas' "blacks are cool" pop-culture has helped improve blacks' status in the eyes of many members of the current generation. They might even be potentially idolised, like "Wow, that guy's black! I wish I was black, like CJ!" Is this the end of discrimination? Has Rockstar killed race hate? I really don't know, but it would probably be "good" in a way if they have. Master Thief Garrett 09:22, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

it's actually quite the opposite--it's a shame people think this. it's the shameless objectification of blacks just like of women in today's culture. i love san andreas. i'm not being PC, either, as i hate censorship. it's just the sort of "blaxploitation" our modern culture feeds off of. some black comedians are guilty of it too--the running "white people are stupid" jokes. And it's okay for them to do that--it's okay, sure--but the sad part is they're serious. And a serious black racist or a serious white racist are the same: stupid. anyway, i think it's a bad step for blacks in general. it's like "nice guys" who put women on a pedestal--this is almost as bad as treating them like shit, you're treating them like fragile objects; animals to be pointed at in the zoo. how about people? Lockeownzj00 01:44, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm in agreement, and yes, it is wrong to use gay in that context. And we can't only consider Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas as a negative towards black culture, even something like MTV is racist in a sense to portray blacks in the light that they do. Too often kids believe that blacks are all about "gangsta life," big booties, sportin' bling, etc. Just because something's in common use (which usually happens over a media blitz akin to GTA), doesn't make it appropriate to use. I, as well, enjoyed San Andreas, and don't think such a game should be censored, however, I also don't believe anyone should take it seriously enough to believe it's an accurate view of black culture. I mean, are blacks suddenly cool because they kill punk-ass bitches who get in their way, or because CJ wanted to be treated with the same respect as anyone else? The answer's obvious. --66.251.24.47 10:51, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

• Gay as in stupid is spelt Ghey. --User:Marc 3:10, 6 September 2005 (GMT

To say that Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas played that big of a role in influencing white teenagers to use the term is an exaggeration. I went to a rural, southeastern US high school '97-'01. White males were using the term to identify each other ("What's up, my nigger?") long before this game was made, and it wasn't a new thing then. White females do it very often now as well; I would doubt that any significant percentage of them have played the game. In any event, it's insignificant (practically nothing in my estimation) in comparison to the influence of hip-hop becoming accepted among white teenagers. (Forgot to sign - Slow Graffiti 19:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC))

Avoiding Offense

I'm of the opinion that recent additions to the first paragraph of Avoiding Offense, regarding similarity to the words "booger" and "teat", are unfounded and don't belong in the article. -- Yath 06:43, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

• Actually I'd say "tit" would be more offensive than "teat", but yes you're right, this is a cultural term. If anything I'd compare it to, say, calling Asians "yellow-skinned" or Maoris "darkies". So if someone feels similarities still need to be covered, cover those ones. There may be others I'm not aware of, I'm not exactly a fount of knowledge about oppressive slang names... Master Thief Garrett 09:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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Pleaaaaaaaaaase don't exclude females when speaking of video games (in ANY way) - this really gets my proverbial goat. The number of times I've had to explain to males my age (mid-twenties) what an rpg is, is unfathmnable to those of us who play them. It totally baffles my mind the number of dudes who think 'chicks' don't play video games. give. me. a. fucking. break. christ.

The most offensive word?

I'm not sure the claim that it "packs more punch" than other ethnic/racial slurs is accurate. Kike is pretty damn offensive to a lot of people. --Delirium 07:44, May 11, 2004 (UTC)

Kike is only offensive to Jews.--220.238.238.21 14:35, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

If you want to rework it, you'll get no objection from me. "Cunt", while not racist, is also up there with highly offensive terms. The article currently tries too hard to be superlative. --Yath 07:56, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

It's an open contest, I think. I know that, frankly, it's something most Americans do an instinctive double-take upon hearing; A "They actually fucking said that?" usually follows in some form. Kike is close, very, very close, but is not quite as used anymore even as an insult. Additionally, it hasn't had the (weird as hell for a white kid from the Northeast) rebirth in a vaguely sort of positive way. Which, it should be noted, creates a minefield. It's a very, very recent thing. Until maybe 5-10 years ago, if you ever said it, particularly in public, you might as well have set off a nuclear weapon.

Then we had the whole rebirth as sort of positive...which I will never understand, and which creates a very uncomfortable situation for most over, say, 20. --Penta 05:36, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

You know what make for a more offensive racial slur? Hard consonants. - Clarknova 06:34, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

That is so true. Plus it really helps to be monosyllabic. Like "daq" (i.e. "duck") Dustin Asby 15:05, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I too was going to mention "cunt." I think this is the most offensive word (according to a social majority) in U.S. English. True, "cunt" isn't a racist term, but it is often used as a disparaging term for women. Dustin Asby 15:05, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it's the most offensive word by any means, America is one country out of 192 countries in the world, this word only carries offence in America and even then (from the outside looking in) it is only middle and upper class whites that seem to have a problem with the word at all.

"…this word only carries offence in America…"? You're an idiot!--220.238.73.6 07:54, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

To me personally, it is the most offensive word that there is. But I cannot speak for those who speak another language, or really anyone but myself. As a matter of context, however, I see it on a level of offense far surpassing 'cunt'. If you call someone a 'cunt', they will at worst be disgusted with you. Call someone a nigger and you are likely starting a fight. More to the point, I like a good dirty porno as much as the next guy, but I don't know many that would get turned on hearing "Yeah, Baby. Stroke my nigger." User:Damien Qui 01:27, 12 Feb 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, I fail to see how it can be considered particularly offensive if the large majority of those who take offense only do so based on the race of the person saying the word - regardless of the speaker's intent. Rexmorgan 02:59, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

what about kaffir? thats pretty damn offensive apparently WookMuff 06:03, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I love this part--

However, some African Americans regularly use it almost as a term of endearment, as in "What's up my nigger?" (or nigga).

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That's rich. good stuff. thanks. I needed that laugh.

As strange as it sounds, this is *actually* true! I've talked to blacks who've said that it's OK among themselves. Indeed some of them want their white friends to feel free to talk similarly, but I can imagine the looks of horror from unknowing onlookers... Master Thief Garrett 09:11, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is true, in this case it is black people taking control of the word "nigger", making it their own and regaining power over it. Which is a good thing, well it would be if it weren't such an offensive word still JayKeaton 16:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

False generalization

(Excuse my poor English, it's not my natural language)

I don't agree with the ending of the sentence: "Nigger is almost always pejorative when used by non-blacks or those without dark skin, particularly white Europeans" (under "Modern meanings"). "White Europeans" there refers doubtless to English-speaking (white) Europeans. This reduces it scope to British and perhaps Irish people. I do not deny that, when "white Europeans" use the word nigger, it may be very often in a pejorative way. It's only that saying Europeans instead of British and Irish sounds like it is a commonly used word among Europeans. Actually, a great majority of Europeans do not use the word nigger in a pejorative way, since we do not use it at all. In the same way, we do not speak English among us. I would really like to see this sentence reworded. It's somewhat offending to see it as it is. --Euyyn 11:35, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I believe "White Europeans" was meant to specify ethnicity/origin, not current habitaiton. Just as people in the States sometimes avoid the colloquially common "black" in writing (preferring African American), they also substitute "European" or "European American" for "white." In this case "white European" is a bit awkward, but not, I believe, intended as you've interpreted. My inclination would be to change it to "white" or "caucasion", since it really refers to race, but if others have strong objections or can point to a style-guide recommendation on race, then I'd follow their lead. Tom 20:47, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I removed that part of the sentence, it was patent nonsense. I have seen Asians use the term, Mexicans, Pakistani’s, etc..., and it was at least as offensive (if not more so) to blacks than when some Euro-American wigger uses it. It’s all about context. A black person can offend another black person by using the word, if they say it right, and mean it in a certain way. I say the word around black people in context (telling a story about those Mexicans or the Pakistani guy using it) w/o offending them at all. The problem, as I see it, is PCBS clouding the judgment of ivory tower intellectuals who have no idea how the term is "nigger" is actually used. There are a lot of ethnic slurs, and there is nothing special about this one. Sam [Spade] 21:29, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure how the "Ivory tower intellectuals" are involved here -- I'd prefer to avoid the anti-PC smokescreen and look at the issue at hand. I don't think it's "patent nonsense" to say that "nigger" is more offensive when used by whites in the U.S. than by another minority group. There first reason this might be is that whites are the ones who enslaved Africans in America and created the racist ideology which the slur is a remnant of -- so it makes sense that the word would be more offensive when used by whites than by others (though of course the word can be offensive when used by anyone, as you point out here and as the article already made clear).

It's racist to say that its more offensive for someone to use the word nigger based solely on the color of their skin. You can't say its more offensive for caucasoids to say niggers than it is for mongoloids or negroids without being a racist. I am changing this sentence as it is possible for it to be used pejoratively by negroids. There is such thing as self-hate and much literature documents this. The word nigger being used as an insult be people of mixed negroid-caucasoid descent to make themselves feel superior, and used by negroids themselves referring to themselves detailing the level of pervasiveness that the racial ideology penetrated.-Joe

It is most definitely NOT racist to say that the word is more offensive when said by a non-Black American. At best, the word is even becoming more and more antiquated and controversial in the Black community. Outside of its historical use, or to put the word into some type of historical context, what other reason would a non-Black American have to use the word? I find that many are simply angry that people ruined the word in the past, for which you only have those people to blame. Sorry, but this is not the first, nor will it be the last, taboo word that will eventually die like many other antiquated terms. It is my opinion that it is great to see groups taking back words meant to mentally harm and demean them, changing them, and then finally giving them their proper burial in the language graveyards. To wrap it all up, again, it is completely relevant to say that when the word is used against a Black American by a non-Black American, it has a lot more negative baggage attached to it rather you choose to accept that fact or not. - Critical Thinker

rudely specific terms

I have removed or 'faggot' for homosexuals. from ...are far more rudely specific terms such as 'greaser' for Latino/Hispanics, 'Christ-killer' for Jews, or 'faggot' for homosexuals. This is not a "rudely specific term" in the sense of the others. British English does have rudeley specific terms for homosexuals (fudge packer, bum chum, shirt lifter, etc.) but since this was specifically about American English and I don't know if the terms are used there I did not put a substitute. -- Chris Q 06:26, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Could you clarify why "faggot" is not a "rudely specific" term in your view? In American English, "faggot" only refers to homosexuals & is highly offensive (as are the others listed). Tom 09:18, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A faggot is also a bundle of sticks, which since it is in The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition [1] I assume applies to American English also. -- Chris Q 11:13, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The other terms specify a specific perceived unpleasant characteristic of the group in question - e.g. that Latinos/Hispanics are greasy. The British terms mentioned above refer to anal sex (ignoring the fact that not all homosexuals indulge in that practice), a subject which disgusts many people, and is used to infer that homosexuals are dirty and disgusting. The term "faggot" does no such thing, there is no characteristic of homosexuals that is "faggoty" that would invoke an immediate derogatory picture of a homosexual in someone who had not heard the term before. It is the same as "Kike" or "heeb" for jew, someone ignorant of the words would have to look to context to find out whether they are derogatory terms, or merely synonyms. With "Christ-Killer" we are left in no doubt as to the speakers opinion of the group in question. PRB 11:15, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Faggot is based on the concept that homosexuals will be the kindling wood, or faggot, with which other sinners will be burned on the day of judgement.

fag·ot also fag·got n.

• 1. A bundle of twigs, sticks, or branches bound together.
• 2. A bundle of pieces of iron or steel to be welded or hammered into bars.

tr.v. fag·ot·ed, also fag·got·ed fag·ot·ing, fag·got·ing fag·ots, fag·gots

• 1. To bind into a fagot; bundle.
• 2. To decorate with fagoting.

(Middle English, from Old French, from Old Provençal, possibly from Vulgar Latin *facus, from Greek phakelos, bundle.)

Sam [Spade] 12:34, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Err, no. That's false etymology, the bit about kindling. Imaginitive, but false and based on a woeful misconception of Christianity --JamesTheNumberless 09:01, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth in the "nigger" article "faggot" is also a term for cigarette in American English prior to maybe the 1950's or 60's. Just wanted to throw that in. The parts of the article that expand on the usage of "nigger" such as "wigger" and such, do a disservice to the meaning of the word "nigger" and should get their own article with a link maybe and not get so much space in this article. I rarely use the word myself, It is offenesive in the U.S. I have been referred to as a "nigga" (I am white) by friends who are not white and that's fine, in that usage it means "one of us" but in a encyclopedia so many of these facts should not be mentioned. this is not a how to guide on how to be "street" or "down" or "hip", This whole article needs to be gone over and tightened up. It blows like the wind! Maybe Encarta removed it because it's just too much! I know about empowerment, I know about taking ownership of terms and I respect it, but for an Encycopedia to minamize the racist,hostile meaning of this word because of a realitivley short lived adoption by current culture troubles me. Bad Dog 21:06 CST

Also B/4 I get slammed, I disagree with any part of the article that says that "nigger" was just an I dentifacation not hostile or offensive. In the U.S. up until the 1860's those people who were referred to as "nigger" were owned by other people, were sold traded, raped, beaten and whipped by the people who called them "nigger". So if actions speak louder than words it has always been highly offensive! to say otherwise is absurd. Bad Dog 21:20 CST

"Colored"

I grew up (in the 80s and 90s) in a middle-class white neighborhood in North Carolina, but there were always a lot of black kids at school. In my experience, "colored" (as an adjective or noun) was definitely pejorative, probably worse than "negro." The names of the NAACP and United Negro College Fund always sounded counterproductive to me, as a kid. "Person of color" sounds respectful but archaic; I've only heard my dad use it. In general, the two acceptable terms were "African-American" or just "black." Just my two cents. -leigh 22:32, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)

In the UK, coloured is not commonly used and I'm quite sure is not acceptable. Most people use only "black". Bush Me Up 02:17, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The article is misleading. "Indegenous Africans" aren't all black. Arabized berbers and other semitic peoples have been in Africa so long they are for all intents and purposes indegenous (especially as all peoples are originally from Africa anyway). The article needs to make clear the word does not refer to Arabs, berbers or any other non-black Africans (unless there is the adjective "sand").

I therefore think we should add the word "colored" or "black" or anything else which makes clear that its physical appearance which matters, not the fact that a person is from so or so continent.

--CJWilly 14:17, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've deleted "colored" (again). See the note accompanying the edit. And, no. Physical appearance is not what matters; what matters is bloodlines. There are plenty of black folks in the U.S. who are as pale as white people. Assuming they're not "passing," a racist would still consider them "niggers." Back in the day, they'd be slaves, just like their blue-black brothers and sisters. And in the U.S. "colored" is considered offensive. Besides, as my note mentions, there are no white people indigenous to Africa. Everyone is "black" by the old U.S. one-drop rule. Take Prince Bandar out of Saudi Arabia, put him in FUBU, and he's one of us. Afro-Semitic peoples and Semitic peoples all have black African ancestry; it's what makes them Semites -- and black Africans and Semites (to the extent that they have black African blood) are the only people indigenous to the African continent. The term "sand niggers," though crude and racist, very clearly makes that connection. deeceevoice 15:51, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

North african arabs consider themselves white (look into the genocide in Sudan), and Prince Bandar is legally white according to the US census. If you are interested in bloodlines, most "african" americans are vastly more euro than african, its simply the racist one drop rule which says otherwise. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 13:40, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What's any of this got to do with the price of rice? We're talking about crude, vulgar racial slurs. Osama bin Laden and Prince Bandar are as black as a whole lot of African-Americans are. And you can bet the same ignorant, redneck GIs who went to Iraq during Desert Storm and called the Afro-Semitic types they came across "sand niggers" would use that term to refer to Bandar and bin Laden, too. And it doesn't matter one whit to a bunch of rednecks from Kansas (or wherever) what North Africans consider themselves. And, no. They don't consider themselves "white"/European; they simply consider don't consider themselves black. They are Semitic or Arab and recognize themselves as such. Further, the religious schism between that part of the world and the West further encourages them to make that distinction -- in addition to their bloodlines. deeceevoice 14:36, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Furthermore, "most 'African' [A]mericans" are most certainly NOT more European than African. I don't know where on earth you got that ridiculous bit of misinformation from. Even the most generous estimates put us at generally between 13-19 percent white. And that certainly does not make us "more" European than African. deeceevoice 14:50, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ask a N African, they tell me their white (more than once). Since "race" outside of blood type, chromosones and other genetics and language group is largely pseudo-science, a persons opinion is of value. Its what most data collecting survey organizations go by. On the subject of % african heritage in african americans:

"of the several thousand people he studied who identify as African-Americans, about 90 percent are at least half black genealogically (and thus genetically). On average, about 82-83 percent of the genes found in African-Americans are indeed from Africa. Still, the odds that a Y-chromosome test will find a forefather from Europe are significant. Kittles noted that about 30 percent of African-Americans' Y-chromosomes originated in Europe."[2]

(Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 15:30, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Its appearance which counts. To a racist, black is defined as anyone with with slightest trace of African features. Technically, we're all descended from black Africans anyway, so its not like there's much sense in the genelogical argument.

--CJWilly 15:00, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sam, 82-83 percent and then 30 percent. Assuming these figures are accurate -- just for argument's sake -- how the hell does that translate to "most"? Answer: It doesn't -- not by a long shot. Further, no one I've ever known from North Africa (Egyptian, Algerian, Moroccan) has ever referred to themselves as "white." I suppose it all depends on what categories those questioned in the information you read (or in your experience) they were given to choose from and where their heads were. The people I've known have all been Muslim and somewhat (or very) leftist politically -- and wouldn't ever, ever, EVER call themselves "white." deeceevoice 19:14, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Its not terribly relevant, but that "out of africa" idea is dated. Current research seems to show people springing up in China, India, and Africa seperately, but its hotly debated and inconclusive.[3]

About "Mungo Man": When quoting archaeological information, it's always helpful to refer to the latest research. Mungo Man was discovered in Australia around 2001. Two years later, it Mungo Man was found to be several thousand years younger than originally suspected -- and Africa still remains the site of the discovery of the oldest human remains on record. If you're really interested in the latest, Google Spencer Wells' DNA research that traced, via San bushman DNA, what is surmised to be the earliest successful migration of humans from Africa to southern India to Australia and then subsequent migrations to points beyond. deeceevoice 19:14, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This article isn't about who is white, it's about who is black. North Africans do not consider themselves black and they are not referred to as niggers (though, like Native Americans, they are sometimes called niggers with an epithet like Sand or Prairie). It's not about African descent, a racist would call someone a nigger if they correspond that person's preconceived stereotype of a Black person. That's it, or that's my experience of it. But that might be because, here in Britain, most Blacks are from the Caribbean and usually have a very complicated genealogy (with white, native American and East Indian thrown as well as African ancestors).

--CJWilly 22:28, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

What? You've never heard the term "sand nigger"? That's what they're called by ignorant people. Besides, many North Africans are notoriously racist, so of course they wouldn't want to be considered black -- though some of them clearly are. Lots of Saudis and Egyptians are as black as I am, and I'm a tan/brown-skinned African-American with with clearly Africanoid features. Prince Bandar is a soul bro. Further, you apparently don't know much about blacks here in the U.S. We are a highly miscegenated bunch -- usually with a mixture of African, white and Native American ancestry. A New York-based African-American paper reported in the mid-1970s that the number of African-Americans with Native American ancestry numbered in the upper 80th percentile. Still, in the U.S., we consider ourselves, and are considered, "black." deeceevoice 15:45, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

These racial categories are ridiculous. Black (or nigger) vs White (or honkey) only has relevance in the US. While slavery existed across the world, in the US it was clear - dark = slave, light = free, or more widely, that the lower social classes would be of mixed race between the Natives, Africans and British and Irish convicts and indentured labourers. Darkness showed low birth. The racism developed because both white and black had a part of each other in them. It was that closeness which created the disgust involved in racism. Same as South Africa. You Americans, white or black look more like each other than anyone else on earth. Your words and hatred, although exported, have no real meaning elsewhere. Not that there is not racism, it's just we have our own peculiar brands.

Secondly. This white vs back trip does not exist in Africa. The (white) Berber tribes of North Africa are as indigenous as any other Africans and are not Semitic or Arab. The Arabs invaded in the 8th Century. In addition to this are the Bantu peoples originating from West Africa, that is, the race most commonly taken to America. But these black people are distinct from the Nilistic (eg. Ethiopian) peoples as from Whites or Aborigines. The Ethiopians are darker skinned but with more domed heads, long narrow noses, taller and thinner boned. Both these groups are racially distinct from the Pygmies of Congo, as distinct as white from black. All these groups are different from the San/Khoi/Bushmen of South Africa who are golden coloured and again completely different from Bantu peoples. ie. 'African' is 4 distinct racial groups with other ancient immigrants - like Arabs, Copts (Egyptians), Afrikaaners, etc...don't start with this we were all black once thing, as if we were all like African-Americans once. The Bantu only expanded from West Africa about a thousand years ago, killing all other types and tribes along the way. What is the origin of man? who knows...Sahara rock paintings show white and black peoples over tens of thousands of years, alternately killing each other. (Isn't the human race nice?)

Usage

does anyone have any evidence regarding frequency of usage? I've heard the word plenty, publically and otherwise, by people of all races. I've known a handful of people (one pakistani guy in particular) that used no other word for black people other than "nigger" or "niggers" (usually along w other expletives). Along w my personal experience, I find it highly speculative to suggest that the word is not used by "most" people, or whatever. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 23:01, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The hackneyed wigger "community"

I used this turn of phrase because it seemed both appropriate, and extremely funny (to me at least). It survived for a VERY long time, so I doubt it was particularly inapt. If their can be a "gay community" or an "online community", why cannot their be a "wigger community"? Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 21:20, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

B-Real of Cypress Hill

Good addition regarding the Beastie Boys and Eminem. But I'm not so sure about B-Real. Is he really completely devoid of African ancestry? It's highly doubtful, given the ethnographic history of Cuba and how miscegenated bloodlines manifest over time. He certainly doesn't look straight-up white,m and his swarthiness ain't from Arawak/Taino blood. Unless B-Real has personally disavowed any African ancestry, I definitely wouldn't include this example. And even then, it's likely not so that he's as "white as the driven snow." deeceevoice 08:37, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think the point is that he's not exactly black, but more of a latino. The suggestion is that amongst certain non-african ethnicities, the term might be more acceptable. I can assure you however that the mexican and pakistani friends I have heard to say "niggers" did not mean it in a spirit of comraderie, and it was absolutely not self-representational. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 12:10, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Latinos are generally allowed to use the term nigga, since they have significant African ancestry. However, not all Black people share that view; many will still tear down a Latino brother or sister for using the term. --b. Touch 15:00, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well some blacks (heck, some white people for that matter) will "tear down" a black person using the term too, its not certainly a unanimously popular word, no matter who uses it. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 19:29, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have a number of Latino friends and speak with them often -- in English and Spanish. And I can assure you. They'd damned better not use "nigga" in my presence. Ever. Don't over generalize, BTouch. We all recall the controversy when Jennifer Lopez used it in a song, and that idiot P Diddy said he'd give her a pass -- just once. (Like he had the authority to speak for the entire race 'cuz she had his nose wide open.) Most black folks I know detest the term and use it, if ever, primarily to describe a backwards mind-set. And will absolutely not tolerate its use by a nonblack. Furthermore, even black folks ignorant enough to allow nonblacks to use the term know that not all Latinos are cool on matters of race. Chicanos and Cubanos are notoriously racist -- and just about all of them are infected with the same sickness that people of color are all over the world; they're "color struck." Pathetic. You ever watch Univision? Blacks are virtually nonexistent; you'd think all of Latin America was blanco and mestizo. The few blacks they do show are often just buffoons. And they love to refer to blacks as "monos" (monkeys) and all sorts of things. Among the black folks I know, a Latino who parts his/her lips to say "nigger," "nigga" or any variant of the word, they'd better be ready to run -- and run hard -- or suffer the consequences. deeceevoice 22:25, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nigger/nigga

Dude, if I ever said "nigger", I'd pronounce it "nigga" and so would everyone I know. That's because in standard English, final "-a" and final "-er" are pronounced the same, as a schwa (a backwards, upside down "e" in IPA). Clearly, "nigga" is just a kewl way to write "nigger" (surely you remember "Niggaz with attitude"?). I think we have to take a bit more care in Wikipedia not to make assertions that are a bit silly, or go without saying. This is one. I didn't scrub it but those editors who work on this page regularly might like to give the idea some thought. Dr Zen 07:36, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Um, the nigger/nigga issue is a well-documented issue with African-American people. Many (most?) young Black people really do believe that the two words have completely separate meanings, and they use them as such. --b. Touch 08:23, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Dr Zen, in most dialects of American English they are quite distinguishable. -leigh (φθόγγος) 04:48, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

The article is correct as it stands. However, I moved a section I wrote earlier about the self-referential use of the term to the "Nigger versus Nigga" section, where I thought it was more on point. I do not happen to believe, however, that "most" African-American youth use the term self-referentially. After all, the attempt to legitimize "nigga" is simply ignorance -- and, thankfully, not all black youth are ignorant of their history, naive or arrogant enough to believe the silly hype around the overuse of this word. Many do not strive to emulate "thug" culture or accept the fake gangsta garbage/self-destructive images of rap music and hip-hop culture in all their negative permutations. They have some common sense, vision and self-respect. deeceevoice 09:07, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree with all of you, and insist that until we have some surveys, polls, or whatnot regarding the opinions on using the terms "nigga" and "nigger", we shouldn't speculate on what most people think. The nigga / nigger dichotomy is a very real one, and although ridiculous to me, has a lot of import to many people. I remember a rather vacuous girl I knew telling me about how some black friends had explained to her that: "they don't like it when you call them "nigg-ers", but "nigga" is ok. Its the "er" part they don't like". I just shook my head and laughed. IMO "nigger, nigga, etc.. is much like other insults, and within certain groups they are acceptable. Compare "motherfucker" "mother..." and "MOFO". All have the same basic meaning, but are differently acceptable in differing circumstances. There is no hard and fast social rule, its something entirely circumstantial. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 12:04, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Why doesn't nigger redirect to nigger (word)?

Everything else listed on nigger refers to the word; this seems like a clear case for primary-topic disambiguation, with nigger redirecting here and what's currently at nigger moved to nigger (disambiguation). --SPUI (talk) 16:15, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Fixed. --brian0918&#153; 17:00, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

(See Tupac Resurrection) In an Interview Tupac Shakur gives an explaination to the use of the words "nigger" and "nigga". Tupac: "Nigge-rs were the guys with ropes around their necks, hangin' out of poles. Nigg-az, where the guys with gold ropes, hangin' out at clubs"

Wigger

I edited the statement on "wiggers" (The word is considered offensive [...]) to say "The word is sometimes considered offensive[...]", but it was reverted. The reason I made the change was because many people don't consider the word offensive at all, and so the article should reflect that. I know many people who would without a thought say "wigger", but who would never dream of uttering "nigger". Any thoughts? Rep 23:18, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I changed that after the revert to read "often" or "usually" (can't remember which) - definitely saying "considered offensive" is POV. --SPUI (talk) 00:05, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Oops, I must be very tired to have missed that - sorry. But thanks, it looks good now. Rep 00:28, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

POV

Opponents of this view argue that nigga is simply "nigger" pronounced with a southern accent, and the revisionist spelling is simply a phonetic representation of the word as it always has been pronounced in African American Vernacular English. "Nigger" is also "nigga" pronounced the same by many whites who intend it as a racial slur. Opponents contend the explanation of the new revisionist usage by a relatively small segment of the population has not changed its centuries-old, racist nature. The majority of African Americans, including many youth, still consider the term offensive and inappropriate in most, if not all, contexts— and never acceptable in any context when used by nonblacks.

Cite a study showing what "The majority of African Americans" think. Otherwise the above is unacceptable. Sam Spade 16:24, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Progress is being made. I have an issue w singling out races in regards to use of the term. A particularly good example of this is muslims. I knew a pakistani guy who hated black people despite the fact that they embraced him. This was especially obvious because black co-workers (I worked w the guy) often wanted to shake his hand, and otherwise greet him warmly. This made him quite angry, as he deeply disliked black people, and considered himself white. Indeed he never used the word "blacks" that I can recollect, only saying "niggers". My black coworkers on the other hand seemed to feel a brotherhood with him, sometimes referring to him as "my brotha". To top off the awkward humor of the circumstance, our upper and middle management was overwhelmingly black, and one of his complaints was that they might have hired him due to his race! All of this in the year after 9/11, when muslims were especially unpopular in the USA (this was in Dayton, Ohio). Funny stuff, if your completely un-pc (as I am). Sam Spade 12:46, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Just getting around to visiting talk. Yeah. 'S funny. Kinda like Steve Martin suddenly realizing he's not black in that film way back when. The Pakistani guy must've been absolutely beside himself. Kinda tragic, too, though. Poor thing. Despising black folks and after these years, only just now finding out he's a "nigger." ROTFLMBAO. Life's a bytch, ain't it? deeceevoice 00:59, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Last i heard from him he was about to be deported back to pakistan, so yeah, i think thats probably a good summary ;) Sam Spade 08:54, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

New meaning for word "Nigger"

Burnout Magazine is reporting a new use for the word:

http://www.burnoutmag.com/article.cgi?article=3&s=

Obviously a joke, incase anyone takes this seriously. :) Haddock420 03:48, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Dead supremacy

More passionately, the term 'Nigger' may also refer to the rarely understood 'dead supremacy.'

Can someone tell me what this means? A hint? A vague outline? Anything? JP | Tark 21:38, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

What? *scratching head* (I hope that's not in the text of the article somewhere!) deeceevoice 23:21, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "nigger"

I have heard a lot of Southerners say "nigger", and with a drawl, the "r" is very clearly pronounced. I think it's ridiculous to say that "many whites who intend it as a racial slur" pronounce the word "nigga", because I can only ever remember white people pronouncing it that way deliberately, in a more "thug" context. Flillibridge 04:26, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

I'm from Louisiana. In southern drawl, the "er" ending is not pronounced. "Jimmeh Cartuh," "flah swattuh," "cahpet bagguh," "nigguh" -- same thing. I don't know who you been listenin' to, but tha's jus' the plain fact of the mattuh. :p deeceevoice 23:19, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

You've never heard someone from the South drawl "nigg-er" real slowly and deliberately? I'm from central Texas, originally, and there are lots of people there who pronounce the "-er" in that and other words who have a clearly "Southern" accent. I just don't think it's really relevant to the article to have this kind of point-counterpoint stuff in there with such sketchy factual information. I'm not going to change anything, I just thought I'd say something. Flillibridge 23:29, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

(chuckling) Chances are I've heard "nigger" pronounced every possible way under the sun humanly possible. You say "...real slowly and deliberately" -- that's purposeful. One can pronounce anything any kind of way -- purposefully. Fact is, in casual speech, the tendency in the South is to drop the "er" and replace it with an "uh" sound. deeceevoice 07:23, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

It's pointless to argue this, because obviously we're talking about different groups of Southerners. I know what's more common where I'm from, and you somewhere else. The original point of this has been lost. Flillibridge 07:44, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. But this article doesn't say that every nonblack to pronounces the word "nigga (nigguh)" intends it as a racial slur, or that everyone who does, does, now -- does it? After all, it's an ugly word used 'round the world and people with all kinds of accents sling it around. And that's not the point, anyway. The point is the word has been pronounced "nigga" for centuries -- before naive/ignorant folks like Tupac came along and decided, in their arrogance, that they were somehow changing the meaning of the word by pronouncing it that way, that there is somehow some inherent difference in the relative powerlessness of a person in the face of racism based on whether they "thug" or not. The funny thing is folks livin' the kind of hardcore ignorant, self-destructive, violent thug life that this almost deified entertainer glorified (and which eventually claimed his own life -- ironic) are more likely to be treated like "niggers" -- incarcerated, shot dead like a dog -- than the "niggers" he so glibly dismisses. The point is, pronounced "nigger," "nigra" or "nigger," the word is offensive as hell. It's gonna take more than some uber full-of-themselves young folks unschooled in and insensitive to their own history to dissociate centuries of negativity -- of violence, lynching, racism, discrimination and hatred -- from the word. The word is no more a positive than the use of "bitch" to refer to a woman. It's nothing but unmitigated ignorance and, often, self-loathing -- an internalization/assimilation of white supremacist dogma -- disguised as bravado. deeceevoice 13:27, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Interwiki

Hapsiainen: I understand your poin of wiev and where it is coming from. Even thou you think word can be used in neutral way in Finland, there is no public media that would agree with you. There is no people in government office that would agree with you. Even in finnish wikimedia, there is not people besides you, who would share you opinion (execpt few vandals). In this article it is said that "nigger" has been neutral term before (Mark Twain etc.) but it is not any more. Exactly same has happen to "neekeri" in finnish. Only problem is that meaning has chaged shorter time ago (some 10-20 years) in finnish and there is still people alive who are not aware of that. They might still use word without knowing better. You would like to defend their right to use that word in neutral way. Well it will not work on that way. If term what I say will hurt you, even thou it is not ment that way, it is not neutral way of saying things. Other problem is that there is still so few black people in finnland, that moust of the people do not need to think what is politically correct way of talking about them. (excuse my english!)--Lemmikkipuu 11:39, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have to re-post here excerpts from an article about such words by Jukka Korpela. This is my translation:

"Words, that nowadays can be perceived as insulting, are neekeri and "vanhus". Earlier they have be used as descripting words, without valuation or with positive valuation. --- Nowadays many people perceive such words as labelling, even attacking. --- People intend to solve the problem by avoiding such words and replacing them with other expressions. Neekeri becomes mustaor "tummaihoinen" and "vanhus" changes into "ikäihminen" or "seniori".

Sometimes it seems like an easy solution that one stops using word that is stated offensive, and replaces it with another, recommended one. But sometimes not everyone thinks the recommended word is correct, either. Some people may think that it is actually worse. --- The meaning of the new word may be samothing else than intended for some readers. For instace, musta can be interpreted to mean a Roma or even a black-haired person."

I don't think that the Finnish word neekeri is in similar position that English nigger. It isn't only used by old people living some outlying villages. There is critique against the practicality of the Finnish newer words, musta and tummaihoinen. There isn't such critique in the English article about Blacks. But if you want to have interlanguage links, put them between neekeri and negro. The article about Negro has also text about similar, controversial words in other languages. The Finnish neekeri can go into the same bunch. -Hapsiainen 12:48, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

White ignorance, white arrogance that they can presume to use such racist words with impunity -- until, of course, some knowing blackman with a sense of himself hears it and beats the holy crap out of 'em. :p deeceevoice 15:53, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

White Dawg

File:Whitedawg.jpg

White Dawg

White Dawg, the notorious "gangsta rappa" uses the term "nigga" as often as humanly possible, w no known repricussions. I figured this should be mentioned in the article, but i can't find the earlier mention of wigger usage of the word. Please find a way to fit this info, and possibily his funny face in this article as soon as possible. heck, maybe DC can even arrange for an arsewhup? Cheers, Sam Spade 21:02, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Uighurs

The word is pronounced "Weeger", it has no connection whatever with nigger, whigger or anything else, no-one has ever confused a Uighur with an African-American, and the whole paragraph is ridiculous. Adam 00:41, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There's nothing absurd about this entry. As a "near-homophone," it qualifies for inclusion. Restored. deeceevoice 03:07, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The whole concept of "near-homophone" is ridiculous. Why don't you list every word in the dictionary which begins with n-i-g or ends with i-g-g-e-r? Bigger, figure, rigger, trigger? For a "near-homophone" to be worth commenting on, you have to show some actual connection, as with the case involving the word "niggardly". When has there been a conflict between Uighur and nigger? Show me a citation. Otherwise I will continue to delete it. Adam 03:43, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You've got a point, and I don't care (frankly :p). I didn't write the section and don't see the value of the entire subsection, particularly. I generally almost always revert something like this once -- to test the intent of the person doing the edit and in case the person who inserted it isn't paying attention the first time; it gives them a little more time to notice the change and respond in defense of their contribution. Hey, if they don't revert your excision of the text, I'm certainly not going to bother doing so. deeceevoice 12:49, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Fan Mail

I just wanted to say that this is a really good balanced article on a very controversial subject. Informative and balanced (IMO). Congratulations to all involved. Gypsum Fantastic 22:35, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Origins

"Two 16th-century uses of the term commonly cited in dictionaries are actually taken from scholarly tracts." Can anyone explain to me how this integrates into the paragraph on origins. It was originally a fragment (no "are") and made no sense to me, so I took it out. Someone else put it back in, so presumably it made sense to them. To my mind, this still breaks up the flow of the paragraph and makes no sense, but I didn't want to start an edit war so I thought I'd post here first. I believe this needs smoothing/integration, but I don't know how to integrate it since I have no idea why the article suddenly refers to "two 16th century uses of the term" and then fails to say what those uses are or what they suggest.

i dont like them, they smell bad and wreck our economy FarQPwnsJoo

# 4.4 "Nigger" versus "nigga": the new revisionism

Nigger Vs Nigga

Explaination from interview with Tupac Shakur (See Tupac Resurrection. Tupac: "Nigg-ers were the guys with ropes around their necks, hangin' out of poles. Nigg-az are the guys with gold ropes, hangin' out at clubs"

"especially" in opening paragraph 2

The "especially" was removed from the following sentence:

"Generally, "nigger" is considered a highly offensive racial epithet, especially when used by non-blacks."

I have restored the "especially"

You should take it back out, because it is only offensive when non-blacks use it to refer to themselves. It is offensive because we were called nigger from the time indentured servitude was changed to chattel slavery for Africans, and even today we are still called nigger, with the same intent and meaning it had back in the 1700s. This little game you folks are playing would be hilarious if you were not so ignorant of the truth about this subject.

A non-black person cannot ever be a nigger, because they have never been subjected to chattel slavery. Forget all this stuff about when it's appropriate for you to use it, because it is never appropriate. You only use it when you wish to remind a black person that we were owned by whites for several generations. It's meaning is immutable. When a black person hears it, he or she is reminded of the hell that was slavery.

Yes, whites were indentured servants at one time. The institution came to America from Europe, and Africans were also indentured until the lust for profit won over the humanity of those who were served. Because we looked so different, and spoke unknown languages, we were called savages, monkeys and worse, and it became "the white man's burden" to civilize us through slavery.

How can you even pretend to share this history, these nightmares that arise whenever a white, or a mexican, jew, european or asian calls a Black Person a nigger? How ignorant you must be to call a Black Person racist because we will not allow you to control us with that word any longer? Do you expect Hispanics to tolerate you calling them spics? Can you call a German a Kraut without risking getting your ass thoroughly whipped? So why do you expect anything different from us?

Now, I'm sure what I've said will be ignored, and you will go on pretending that you are experts in the usage and history of this word, but I'm duty bound to clear this up:

Niger and Nigeria were the main slave trade ports in West Africa. Like Nigeria, Niger is pronounced "Ny-ger". We were called Nigerians before Greece was great and Rome became an empire. Of course, sailors were not known for their educations, and nigger is a bastardized form of Niger/Nigerian. Negro, on the other hand, came into the English language from Spanish.

Nigga, like hip-hop, is a style of rap, which is a descendant of verbal history.

I'm not going to provide citations and references just yet, but you can see the change from indentured servant to chattel slavery in many places, http://spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USASlavery.htm is just one of them.

So please, stop pretending and regurgitating things you've heard without researching them. Hopefully, you'll accept what I've said in a generous spirit, and allow it to put these questions and false debates to rest. You don't have to be the 7 blind men describing an elephant any longer.Juan 00:33, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. You write as if you yourself had felt a whip on the back instead of having been summoned into existence at some stage in the later 20C. Or more accurately, like a feminist bemoaning 5000 years of male oppression as if I myself had done it and better damn sure make up for it. Thing is, I'm me. Never oppressed nobody. The only hold 'slavery' has over you is in feelings of impotence, rage and inferiority. And bing! The racists have you. They just burrowed into your mind and grabbed you. You gotta liberate yourself from this negative thinking.

As to slavery. Africans (Moroccans) were still enslaving white Europeans in raids until the 19th C. They took them to Morocco and were overseen by black people. The slavers were called the Barbary Corsairs and they were destroyed, finally, after several centuries by the good old US Navy. And for the record, when the Romans conquered England in the 1st Century AD they used black troops and then enslaved the population and lived under Black-Roman, becoming more and more white for 4 centuries. And boy. Am I still angry at that? No. I was summoned into existence at some stage in the late 20C. Never happened to me. hickster

To remove the "especially" changes the sentence so that it makes the claim that the term "nigger" is only offensive when used by non-blacks. This is an interesting claim which is discussed at some length later in the article in various other guises, but it has no place in the introductory paragraph, especially not as a bald statement of fact. If others agree that "especially" does not belong here, the sentence should be revised simply to something along the lines of, Generally, "nigger" is considered a highly offensive racial epithet.. This would avoid raising the issue altogether.

That said, I've restored the "especially"because I believe that as written -- "especially when used by non-blacks" -- the sentence represents a neutral point of view.

All would agree, I think, that the term (like any racial slur) is especially offensive when used as an epithet by an outsider against the targeted group. I think the widespread avoidance of the word in print media etc. is evidence that the word itself is considered highly offensive no matter what (even when the speaker is anonymous or unclear). Whether or not the term is offensive when used within the group is up to more debate -- debate covered in discussion which belongs later in the article. Of course, I would argue that existence of said debate is evidence that at least some people consider the word highly offensive even (or perhaps especially!) when used by other blacks -- there are quotes to this effect in the article as well. Tom

I, as a white person, am offended by the word, ESPECIALLY when used by "blacks" why? because of their skin color, it is less offensive. That in and of itself is freaking racist. IreverentReverend 2 July 2005 05:52 (UTC)

I second that MessedRocker 23:57, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this really does need to be fixed "Generally, "nigger" is considered a highly offensive racial epithet, especially when used by non-blacks" should be "Generally, "nigger" is considered a highly offensive racial epithet," otherwise this article is racist by saying skin color matters in what words you can use. IreverentReverend 3 July 2005 23:41 (UTC)

Frankly, skin color and any other number of factors do matter in what words you use. There will always be contention on whether or not it is appropriate, but look at Dave Chappelle who uses the word bigger througout his comedy, and who in a 60 Minutes interview straight out said that it was ok for him and other black comics to use it and not ok for a white comic to do the same. Judging by the content of the performances of a number of black artists, a large contingent of the black community agrees with this assesment. Admittedly, not all do, as Bill Cosby has come out directly against the use of the word nigger by blacks. It's worth pointing out that blacks are not alone in this double standard. There are plenty of comedians, (jewish, asian, latino) who play off of racial sterotypes all the time, but if a white comedian were to do the exact same act, it would probably be considered racist and offensive. Another example, gays can generally get away with calling each other faggot, but it would be inappropriate for anyone else to do so. You can argue that all of these examples are unfair, particularly to whites, but they are, for the most part, true. --CVaneg 5 July 2005 19:31 (UTC)

It is not the fairness I am debating, but the downright racism of the article. To say one word is ok for one person and not ok for another based on SKIN COLOR is downright RACIST, something wikipedia should avoid. IreverentReverend 6 July 2005 02:46 (UTC)

The article does not say that the word is offensive when used by non-blacks: it says that it is considered offensive when so used. The former is an opinion, the latter is a fact. Mark¹ 6 July 2005 02:56 (UTC)

It is "considered" offensive no matter WHO uses it, for the very reason Chappelle states: skin color matters! Implying that it is less racist for african americans to use the word is wrong to do. perhaps "Generally, "nigger" is considered a highly offensive racial epithet, especially when used by non-blacks, by the black community, and that is racist to the non-black society" or something along those lines. As it is now, it implies it is cosidered less racism when "blacks" say it. IreverentReverend 6 July 2005 03:11 (UTC)

Implying that it is less racist for african americans to use the word is wrong to do. We're not implying that. We're saying that some people believe that. Mark¹ 6 July 2005 03:24 (UTC)

then say "Some people think the term is less racist when used by blacks" not that it is racist "especially when used by non-blacks". While the intended meaning is the same, the former does not imply that it is WORSE for non-blacks to say it. it is the conotative meaning that matters here. IreverentReverend 6 July 2005 03:30 (UTC)

"Is considered" does not mean "is". Mark¹ 6 July 2005 03:35 (UTC)

Looks like we're on the verge of an edit war here. As I originally stated, I really don't like the version currently on the page. I believe it should either have the "especially" intact (which implies it is always generally considered offensive, but moreso when used by non-blacks) or should have the entire "when used by non-blacks" clause removed. As it currently stands, it implies it is not considered offensive when used by blacks, although as stated earlier in this discussion, it clearly is considered offensive by many regardless of who uses it.

I continue to contend that keeping the especially is the best solution -- I imagine even those, like Bill Cosby, who prefer blacks don't use the word would recognize it as more offensive when used as a slur by a white supremacist than when used by e.g. a black comedian. I am unmoved by IreverentReverend's claims that this makes the article "racist." It seems to me perfectly clear that the offensiveness of a racial slur is dependant on the race of those using it and patently absurd to claim that pointing out this difference represents some kind anti-white racism. Tom

I think that the current version by Tom is good, for all the reasons he and everyone else gives --CVaneg 6 July 2005 20:34 (UTC)

Intent makes a word racist, not skin color of the speaker. To say it is automatically more racist if a white person uses it is racist. to say t is more racist when used in a derogetory term is not. If you were to go onto a random BBS online, and see someone saying "nigger please" and "nigger" this and "nigger" that is it racist? Would your opinion of that change if I told you the author was white? what if i said he was black? asian? It shoulden't as, accourding to this article, those appear to be ok uses. would it be racist if instead, you found the phrase "shut up, you are nothing but a dumb-ass nigger"? was that racist? it is suddenly NOT racist if the author was black? get with the program. If you believe the color of your skin makes a word more or less racist, you are racist. Hell if you believe the color of skin MATTERS in a social setting you are racist. Lets move into modern times. IreverentReverend 7 July 2005 16:36 (UTC)

I think the point being made here is that it is far easier for people to misunderstand intent when the speaker is not black. Also, we should make a distinction between racism and offense. Racism is something internally defined, that is to say, a given person is racist if he or she makes certain judgements solely on the basis or race, on the other hand offense is something that is defined by the people around you. So it's entirely possible that a white person uses the word nigger without any racist intent, but that does not mean that the people around him or her will not be more offended than they would if a black person used the word (with racist intent or not). --CVaneg 7 July 2005 20:38 (UTC)

so... you are saying that people are judging others based on the color of their skin, and using that to decide wetehr a word was racist or not? gee that sound pretty darn racist.... like I have been saying.... IreverentReverend 8 July 2005 05:57 (UTC)

In fact, that is exactly what I am saying. Society, at least to some extent, is racist. Regardless of your own lack of any racial preconceptions, it would be foolish of us to assert that all of society is completely color-blind. --CVaneg 8 July 2005 17:10 (UTC)

Other uses

People use 'nigger' to refer to people from the middle east in the term 'sandnigger'. I wonder if anyone else thought that should be added to the page or not. --PirateMonkey 7 July 2005 21:56 (UTC)

Robert Byrd quote without citation

• I've removed the bold text from the following sentence: "When it was translated into English, it was published under the title White Niggers of America (incidentally, former Klu Klux Klan member and current Democratic U.S. Senator of West Virginia Robert Byrd used the term "white niggers" when asked in an interview about the state of race relations in America)."

I have no doubt that Byrd said that, but a) the article doesn't specify when and where Byrd said it, or provide a citation for it and b) it makes no sense as a parenthetical clause of that sentence. Please put the quote back if a citation can be found and note the citation under References at the bottom of the article. Thanks, Fernando Rizo 9 July 2005 02:44 (UTC)

The GNAA

Some editors seem not to like a link to the GNAA in this article. Can I give the reason why I think it is highly relevant? The article centres on the fact that the word nigger is normally regarded as highly offensive. The GNAA is an example of deliberate, but non-racist, use of the word nigger to cause offence, something not mentioned in the article. I can't think of another example but if there were one, then that would have a place. Having mentioned it in the text obviates the need to put a 'see also' section in the article and I have moved the reference, but in my opinion, provided the GNAA article itself is kept (which is looking increasingly likely), it has a relevance to the contemporary usage of the word nigger. For the record I am not a member of the GNAA and I would consider anyone who implies that I am as making a personal attack. David File:Arms-westminster-lb.jpg | Talk 21:19, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Good point there, when referring to the offending part of "nigger" (as opposed to the racist part of "nigger") MessedRocker 00:03, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Howard J. Ehrlich quote

The Ethnophaulisms section looked like this prior to my edit: Social scientist Howard J. Ehrlich has said "ethnophaulisms are of three types: disparaging nicknames (chink, dago, nigger, and so forth); explicit group devaluations ("Jew him down," or "niggering the land"); and irrelevant ethnic names used as a mild term of disparagement ("jewbird" for cuckoos having prominent beaks or "Irish confetti" for bricks thrown in a fight). Virtually all racial and ethnic groups have been the subject of racial slurs; but few, if any, racial or ethnic groups have had as many racial slurs associated with them as blacks. As you can see, the Erlich quote has not end quotation mark, and I don't personally know where the reference comes from, so I've removed the quotation mark. Fernando Rizo 23:30, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

what does it mean?

The word "nigger" is an extremely controversial term used in many English-speaking countries, including the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia (but also in other countries where English is known such as Germany, specifically)

I do not understand it

(Assuming you are a native English speaker) Get on a plane, fly to Frankfurt airport. Disembark, then go to a concession stand and say loudly and clearly "God, I'm glad that flight's over - the plane was *full* of niggers!". Observe the look of shock and disbelief on the face of the concession stand owner. German nationals (generally) speak and comprehend English well enough that they are aware of and understand the full impact of the word "nigger". This may well be the case in other countries where English is a popular second language. I suppose the point is that the word has force in places where English is not the first language?

More modern usage

I have found personally, and also in much black stand-up, that nigger/nigga is beginning to become the black equivalent of white trash. This is especially evidenced in the infamous/notorious Chris Rock routine, Niggas vs. Black People, which he seems to stand behind as a true political statement as opposed to purely a comedy routine. Perhaps the "evolution" of the word ought to be addressed in the article?70.243.32.96 03:14, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

????

"I do not fully understand the term. If a person is born white, but eventually goes black maybe from a tan..."

WTF?!? Not possible! No Way! No How! 24.127.63.68 07:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)emantic57

There was a case in Apartheid South Africa, a white woman turned black, really quite dark black and was forced to register as 'coloured' (not black) and live, etc. in their neighbourhoods.

Similarly, what about Michael Jackson? Can he say it? Or albinos? 194.112.59.141 01:21, 26 January 2006 (UTC) ...sometimes i despair of humanity...

possible addition

'In the 1997 film Gridlock'd, Tim Roth's character justifies his use of the word by referring to it as "a term of fuckin' endearment".'

I think this should be added somewhere. 86.136.113.191 10:56, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Etymology

I can not edit this article at the moment since it is protected, however the second paragraph must be titled Etymology. (eg the paragraph that starts w/ "The word originates in from French..."). This seems like a term mostly originating in U.S. Could someone take a look at those 1882 cards [4] and determine if they are of historical/etymological significance?

Near homophones

"As such words are easily mistaken for "nigger," their use is frowned upon and sometimes seen as offensive."

By who? Illiterates? Niggard is a perfectly good word. How can anyone take offence? Avalon 11:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you and was glad to see someone else picked up on this. It is very offensive when someone tries to dictate nonsensical rules. I guess the use of any word could be "frowned upon"--like bigger--and "sometimes seen as offensive", even though the people who have taken offense were ignorant of the meaning of the word "niggardly". The word "niggard" could be offensive if it were intended to be a substitute for "nigger". Just because someone somewhere considers something offensive does not make it "frowned upon" except by the people who see it as offensive.

The phrase could read, "their use is frowned upon by people who are ignorant of the words' meanings and thus see them as offensive".

To illustrate, I have no problem with British people using the word "faggot" to refer to a cigarette--even though it's the SAME word as that which has an offensive meaning "homosexual" and not just a NEAR-homophone. To then say that to use the word faggot (cigarette) is frowned upon is ridiculous.

Conversely, if someone used even a nonsensical word in a manner intended to be offensive, it could be taken as offensive. The offensiveness is not inherent to the word but in the intent of the speaker and/or in the perception of the hearer and that is why a word's offensive or non-offensive status can change over time or in different contexts. THB 03:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Just a minor point - British people never call a cigarette a "faggot" - you are thinking of "fag", which is a very common word for a cigarette. A "faggot" is a type of round ball of minced and processed meat usually eaten with chips and peas. TharkunColl 10:11, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

sociologists and gangster rap

I removed the following text:

Sociologists commonly point to black-on-black violence and its association with [[gangsta rap]] -- the phenomenon most responsible for the rise in the revisionist use of the term among some black youth -- as a manifestation of the self-destructive, self-loathing mind-set referred to above.

It may be that sociological studies have found a link, but I'm sure that even social scientists dispute the correlation between gangster rap and violence. I'm interested in reading your sources, so please cite them. --Defenestrate 23:57, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Definitions section

What's going on with the "Definitions" section in this article? It doesn't appear to be very encylopedic in style. --Takeel 01:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Used in UK?

I would dispute that this term is commonly used in the UK. Maybe by a tiny minority, but the more common pejorative term in the UK is "Black B..." I've never in my 42 years heard anyone in the UK use this term, even virulent racists us BB, rather than this "Americanism". Camillus (talk) 03:34, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

The word Nigger probably became offensive than the "C-word" in the UK a few years ago (political correctness). However this fact has been picked up by black youths who now use the term freely within there own groups. The definition has changed somewhat, rather than meaning the colour brown it means "Lazy person", or someone who is just "Ambitionless".

In London suburbs you can hear the term used freely (by blacks) who obviously take some delight in the ownership of the word, since white people have a reluctance to use the word.

Whether the word will come back into the mainstream is quite possible. I could call a white friend a "Lazy Nigger" without causing offense, if this new definition is picked up by media (TV/Films) then the stigmatism surrounding the word (mostly seeming to come from American usage) should disapear.

I'd agree with CPMcE that if (in the UK) you wished to purposely offend in a racist manner, you might use "Black Bastard". Simononly2 24 March 2006

I agree, its use in the UK would more commonly get you laughed at, much like calling somebody a "jerk off", "nigger" sounds a bit weak and ineffectual as it's an overt Americanism. I don't think I've ever heard it used to describe a black person in the UK, although my White and Asian friends at university and I used to refer to inanimate objects or difficult situations as "niggers" and occasionally insult eachother. --JamesTheNumberless 17:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

The rate of vandalism to this article is very high. Would it help the situation any if edits were restricted to registered users? --Takeel 13:19, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe it should and have added the Sprotect, much like the George Bush article, this article is highly sensitive and emotionally charged and needs to be protected. Jeffrey 04:56, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

It's a word like any other

I am white and the word nigger has a specific meaning to me. I grew up in a predominantly white town in NJ. I lived directly across the street from a A.M.E Zion Baptist church- "the Black Church". I learned that a "nigger" was a low-down scumbag of a person- who happened to be black. A person is not a nigger just because he or she happnes to be black. And while I have used the word nigger, I don't know that I ever used it without prefacing it with "piece of shit..." It has been so rare for me to use it, I don't know that I can even think of the last time I said it.

Nigger is offensive if it is used offensively, just like "ass" or "bitch". Examples: "I have an ass to plow my field." "She has a nice ass." "Don't be an ass!" "That test was a bitch." "I bred my dog with Mr. Wilson's bitch." "You're a bitch!"

The argument or position that blacks don't say "nigger", but rather "nigga" is a bunch of crap. Put a slang on it, but it's the same word. It's also a bunch of crap that only blacks can say nigger or nigga. It's how you use the word.

We know that nigger is used as an insult (to say the least), but it is also used as a sign of friendship ("He's my nigger/nigga"). I don't know this definition. That is, I don't have anyone in my life that I would call "my nigger/nigga".

There have been moves to remove books from reading lists and libraries that contain the word "nigger". Would you take "To Kill a Mockingbird" off the shelves because the word "nigger" is in the book. How else does Atticus teach his daughter, Scout, that what is being said in this case is very wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomasb113 (talk • contribs)

Page vandalized

Someone wiped out the whole page. You really need to restrict this to registered users or else it's gonna happen again.

I agree with the above unsigned comment that edits to this article should be restricted to logged-in users. The vandalism is very heavy. --Takeel 00:44, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I added the protect, I agree that it needs to stay because the Vandalism is rampent. Jeffrey 04:58, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

It looks like your protect template was removed because it wasn't run through Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection. I have requested protection there for this article once before and my request was rejected. The rejecting admin said there wasn't enough vandalism. I don't agree. --Takeel 14:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

To my mind the word Nigger is racist period, but i still think it's stupid to censor the word when reporting on somthing. Fro example this:

"A Washington Post article on Strom Thurmond's 1948 candidacy for President of the United States went so far as to replace it with the periphrasis 'the less-refined word for black people'." Now that's just stupid, i can't imagine any rational person being upset at the Post for printing "Nigger" in relation to thurmonds Candidacy

Reversion

Hi,

My sourced additions to the article were just reverted and no explanation was given, so I'm re-instating them.

Primetime 05:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Former USSR

In Russia and the former Soviet states (Ukraine, Armenia, Georgia, Belarus etc.) the word "negr" is used to refer to people of sub-Saharan african ancestry. It is not a derogatory term. To US ears it of course sounds like "nigger". Shouldn't this be mentioned?--Eupator 19:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

True for Estonian 'neeger' also. There are people though, who, influenced by English language, now consider the word derogatory. Some suggest, we should prefer the word 'must' ('black'), which has been used to refer to people from Caucasia so far (they've got quite dark skin you know, American use of 'Caucasian' sounds peculiar for Estonians at least), or 'Afro-American' which is plain silly, because most of the people referred by term 'neeger' have nothing to do with Americas... So I guess that the only way to be politically correct "globally" is to use terms like 'people of Sub-Saharan african ancestry'... --194.126.101.137 13:50, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Delete this page

This article is absolutely offensive and has no place on Wikipedia. It should be deleted and replaced with an article that does not spell the actual word. 68.22.252.165 03:13, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

---

You MUST be kidding. It has often been said, and is widely agreed upon, that knowledge of history is the only hope we have of not repeating the mistakes held therein. Do you honestly believe that ignoring the mistakes we have made will make them disappear? We must aknowledge usage of the word in a historical context as well as its contemporary appropriation by the people it claims to represent. if you have such a big problem with the term, you should be happy that it's being discussed so extensively - in a manner which allows it to be examined and re-examined. In a way which allows it a chance at over-coming the traditional ways in which it has (mis-) represented diasporic african-american population.

If people don't stop removing my tags that this page should be reviewed I will have to find someone myself and I won't stop until this article's name is changed and all uses of the N word are removed. 68.22.252.165 03:40, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

• Simply put: this will not happen, so it is a waste of time for you to try. While you are welcome to suggest ways to clean up this article, it is unlikely that the article will be redacted to remove the word. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:43, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

It's a word that gets used everyday in the English language by (at least) thousands of people. Being politically correct to the point of absurd censorship as your recommendation to delete this article suggests is counter-productive. Also, the suggestion to replace this article with one that doesn't spell the actual word made me laugh. Real hard. --24.43.202.109 10:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

How is it offensive? It's informative. A word is only offensive if it is said and actually meant to cause offense. Do you just want to pretend the word doesn't exist? Will not spelling it out remove the connotations? We all know what its supposed to be when we read a censored word, so what's the point in censoring it? Should we call this article "the N word"? I suggest you please stop being.. well, stupid. --Casiotone^talk 13:45, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The article is about 10,000 times longer than it needs to be, so it should be severely truncated and reduced in size to one or two sentences. Superslum 15:35, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that the article read this way: Nigger is a word of slang that is the commonest word of slang used ubiquitously in the United States in place of the accurate word Negro. Nigger is used to "signify" on colored people.

There you have the succinct, terse, accurate, and adequate passage. You don't need 10,000 words, links, citations, quotations, references, cross-references, sources, and other gobble-de-gook.

(Webster's Collegiate Dictionary defines gobble-dy-gook or gobble-de-gook this way: "wordy and generally unintelligible jargon"). Stop all of the signifying on the colored people that is completely out of control in Wikipedia. Superslum 01:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is here to teach people things they don't know. Everyone knows what you just wrote. I know a few of the things in the article are not widely known (e.g., old spellings, the sense of being used as a friendly term among white people, etc.) Your abstract statements sure haven't convinced me that the article should be shortened. You're going to need to give some actual examples and explanations of exactly why they should not be in the article including what deleting them would accomplish.--Primetime

03:06, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Dago, Spic, and Kike are three articles that are properly sized for ordinary topics called "ethnic slurs." Why is it necessary to explain and to illustrate "nigger" ad infinitum?Superslum 00:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

NO entries at all are on the talk page at Dago. Why are there so many at Nigger? Superslum 16:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Usage by members of other ethnic groups

In the article it claims that the use of the word 'nigga' is still found to be offensive by blacks if said by non-blacks, shouldn't it be noted that several hispanic rappers have used the term without much criticism if any i.e Big Pun, Fat Joe.

But the article does mention Fat Joe. Phiwum 08:02, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

first sentence assumes reader isn't black

Nigger ... [snip] ... is a derogatory term used to refer to black people.

This sentence assumes the reader isn't black, since the word often isn't considered derogatory when used by black people. It's even mentioned later in the article that black people often use the word "nigga" without any negative connotations. This sentence should be appended with something like "unless used by black people, in which case it is often neutral." Please remember that we black people also read and contribute to Wikipedia.

Understand that just because some find it not offensive in the Black community there are others that do.--Gnosis 01:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes and on behalf of all computer programmers I object to the article on software developers assuming that the reader is not a software developer. How dare they! Furthermore it is utterly disgraceful that the article on Svalbard assumes that the reader doesn't live there - preposterous! --JamesTheNumberless 08:49, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Good article

Hey, I was amazed to see this article here, and I read every word. I'm fairly new to Wikipedia, and I think this article is a great illustration of Wikipedia's value. Other reference sources don't even mention the word. Wikipedia mentions it, talks about it from many angles, dissects the bad, presents the rest in neutral terms, etc. Even references the book "Nigger," which is a pretty good thoughtful book (I've read it. Imagine the awkward moment when I asked the public librarian about it over the telephone), but not as broad as the Wikipedia article.

---

please don't use the word "neutral"; the term and idea behind it are totally bogus. no one is neutral. the world is full of subjective realities - situated knowledges. oh, and please don't give the ridiculous, catch22-causing, universalist argument that such a comment is universal in itself. get a life.

---

"Totally bogus." How thoughtful. You must be a true intellectual. Maybe you are bell hooks, considering your use of upper case letterz.

Dago is an "ethnic slur"

Why is the talk page at Dago still blank? Nigger contains 10,000 times more comments and opinions than does Dago. What causes so much spellinding interest in Nigger? The word is a common expression, so why is there so much curiosity about it? Nigger is a very dull subject of no interest to me. Please place some comments at Dago, Spic, and Kike, too. Superslum 05:49, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Could be because it's a British word and the Brits on Wikipedia are either not very well represented in numbers or not particularly hung up on ethnic slurs. --JamesTheNumberless 17:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I have submitted a comment to dago {talk}. There was a vacuum on the page. It was spooky (I think). Superslum 18:09, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Beastie Boys

Removed this content which I couldn't verify:

"The Beastie Boys, an all-white hip-hop group, were forced off-stage after using the word in a non-hostile context to refer to their audience."

Did this really happen? When and where? SpuriousQ 01:21, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Beastie Boys

http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=64443 Quotes a Spin article from 1998, See posts 5, 6, and 7 for scans of the pages.

Doctor Dre: I was onstage at the famous we-almost got-killed concert at the Apollo Theater, opening for Run-D.M.C. Everybody was like, "Look, whatever you do, don't say 'nigger'"-because it was part of what we did, before a lot of people were doing that in hip-hop. They didn't mean it in a negative way, they meant it as something warm and generous to their audience. But Russell grabs me and says, "Don't let 'em do it." And I'm like, "What am I gonna do? I'm in the back DJing." So they're out there doing "She's On it," and Ad-Rock says, "All you niggers, wave your hands in the air!" I've never seen so many blank stares! Mike looks back like he doesnt know what to do, but Yauch was like, I'm out of here! And Ad-Rock's going "Come on y'all, come on y'all," and nobody's waving back. They finished the song, dropped the mics, and ran off the stage. I'm still out there, and everybody's kind of looking at me. I run upstairs to the dressing rooms, and everything's gone. They werent even on the tour bus. They all jumped in a cab and went home.

Zeabrid 23:06, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey, nice research, that looks legit. I'll put the content back in. SpuriousQ 10:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Kudos

IMHO, this article is a tribute to the excellence of Wikipedia. It's a truly excellent expostion of a subject that lesser sources won't touch. And what a miracle that the constant vandalism is kept almost totally in check by the flock of unpaid folk who watch over Wiki-land. Truly amazing.

Use of Word by People of varying races

I think this article is excellent, but one thing I feel it is missing is a proper section on how offensive it is when used by people of varying ethnicities. Round my part of England, loads of the black guys call each other nigger without meaning offense, and a few white guys they respect can get away with it, but most white people couldn't get away with it. A good example being the film Rush Hour, where Chris Tucker goes into his cousin's bar and starts chatting to the barman with the phrase "Whassup, my nigger?". Rock leaves the room, and Jackie Chan attempts to start a conversation with the barman using the same phrase and is attacked by most of the black characters in the bar.

England/Ireland

If someone in America is called African-American what are they called in England or Ireland?

Afro-Caribbean is the closest equivalent, I suppose. Though if they're actually American, then African-American will do. Most Brits (of any colour) say black without worrying too much about hyphenated descriptions. 86.132.137.150 03:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Chinky?!

'Similarly, other portmanteaus formed from nigger, also considered offensive, are used to describe other groups. These include combining nigger with Chinky, (Chinese), to produce chigger,'

I'm not sure we really need the 'Chinky'. I suggest the more simple 'These include combining nigger with Chinese to produce chigger'. I don't suppose many people look at the word 'Chigger' and think 'oh Chigger, that must be a combination of Nigger and Chinky'. Chinky is not common parlance for many people. Maybe my Grandma, and that's about it. In fact, if you keep Chinky in there, the article reads like my Grandma probably wrote it. I made an exec decision and changed it, hope no-one minds! 88.104.163.180 02:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Snigger

The "Near-homophones" section mentions niggardly and snigger as "frowned upon and sometimes seen as offensive" because of their pronunciation. Here (Britain) I've heard that occasionally about "niggardly", but never, ever about "snigger", which is the standard word for that type of laugh (far more common in British English than "snicker"). Loganberry (Talk) 03:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)