Talk:Agnosticism

Problem with the Euler diagram

You can have knowledge of the subject or not have knowledge but as agnostic/gnostic is defined can there be a third state? What does the yellow area labeled 'Atheist' that lies outside knowledge/lack of knowledge represent? Wouldn't a more appropriate diagram be one with a line bisecting the Y-axis with agnostic taking the upper or lower half and gnostic the other half? A person either claims some evidence for belief or fails to claim evidence or claims no evidence but the person's failing to claim evidence are still agnostic. The article should make reference to the yellow and pink sections of the diagram as to what they represent. It only focuses on the intersected areas. Alatari (talk) 07:29, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Those areas represent a space where the word is written, not as an actual third category. It's not the most helpful diagram. NaturaNaturans (talk) 01:43, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Please, can we remove the diagram? It is not helpful. There is no belief axis in Agnosticism! I despise this orthogonal view of agnosticism. Agnosticism is about knowledge, that's it... Once there is knowledge, a belief statement can be made. There is no need for this kind of chart! Furthermore, it is not neutral. It's taking the atheist orthogonal chart and attempting to display it in a way that agnostics will be ok with (since there's a bubble there marked "Agnostic" with no overlap), but the chart doesn't make sense: No one is just Gnostic. It's pointless trying to represent agnosticism in this kind of chart. Szkott (talk) 07:27, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Agree that the diagram confuses the agnostic subject by mixing in belief and using the Euler diagram allows for agnostic, gnostic, atheist, and theist as stand-alone positions within the multi-axis of knowledge and belief. Ffuege (talk) 00:24, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

How about using this diagram instead

Theological positions - alt version.svg

Marekich (talk) 04:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I like the diagram but I don't believe the categories are to be capitalized. They are not proper nouns so if you make all the letters lower case there likely will not be objections. I do not have a source but in many forums usage of Atheism denotes a gnostic atheist and usage of atheist is short hand for an agnostic atheist. It's like religion discussion slang. Alatari (talk) 10:17, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I think it’s an improvement on our present one. I agree with Alatari that lowercase would be preferable, however. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 20:19, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

The chart above does not have the Rowe area that agnosticism is a possible separate position. So while this diagram would be useful to present the Smith view we would need a diagram for the Rowe view to satisfy IIXVXII's (and some others that have chimed in) objections. Alatari (talk) 02:28, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Two items possibly needing relatively urgent fixing

At least in my humble opinion, there remain several unsatisfactory (inaccurate, incomplete, misleading, etc) aspects to this article, which I may or may not eventually get round to trying to fix myself (if I have the time and am sufficiently interested, etc). As already discussed at greater length in the previous section, it is quite likely that the ones that I may want to see fixed first are those errors (or inaccuracies, etc) that I think are liable to cause unnecessary offence (rather than the seemingly less urgent ones that seem unlikely to cause offence). At present I have noticed two of these, which I'm mentioning (both here and already in the previous section) in case somebody else wants to fix them. One is the frequent unqualified repetition as if it were fact that Atheism means believing there are no Gods, whereas many (and perhaps most) Atheists would say that is only one kind of Atheism (usually called Strong or Hard Atheism) - I know from experience (and you can also see clear evidence of it elsewhere on this Talk page) that this kind of unqualified assertion can offend Atheists (especially 'Weak' or 'Soft' Atheists), that the unqualified assertion is basically wrong, but that fixing it satisfactorily and accurately (with the backing of 'reliable sources') is liable to be quite difficult. The other is the bit about 'Agnostic Atheism', which is liable to offend many Agnostics who see it as describing their position, but who reject the label of Atheist (one of whom would perhaps have been T.H.Huxley himself, judging by what he has to say about Atheism). The fix may well be to clearly spell out that this is a classification invented by atheists and frequently rejected by agnostics (always assuming that it actually is all that - its sole supporting quote is one book by one atheist who, for all I know, may well not be a 'reliable' source), but finding reliable sources for any of that may not be easy.Tlhslobus (talk) 04:33, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I know more than a few agnostics who self-describe as “agnostic atheists”. However, no doubt some closeted atheists prefer the label “agnostic” to “atheist” to evade social stigma from atheophobes. Let's not put any unqualified generalizations in the article about how people label themselves. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 23:54, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

@Robin Lionheart "Let's not put any unqualified generalizations in the article about how people label themselves." Yes, let's not. Therefore, we shouldn't put the "agnositic atheist" self-label in there either. I have a fear that this article is becoming a political statement made by atheists, who wish to view all agnostics who lack beleif in god as "agnostic atheists" - such a statement however is full of bias, because it assumes that the only reason for wishing to self-label as such is to avoid the "stigma" of being called atheist. This classification system (orthogonal chart) was clearly invented by atheists and has no place on an unbiased page concerning agnosticism. The problem is that most agnostics don't care enough to bother and most of the edits here are made by atheists, who think they understand what agnosticism is. Unfortunately they only understand it as a self-invented relationship with atheism.Szkott (talk) 07:44, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

All agnostics who lack belief in any gods are “agnostic atheists”. No bias — that’s simply what that term means. You keep complaining about atheists speaking about agnosticism, but a majority of those atheists are agnostics. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 20:03, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

The Duty to Information - New notions to agnosticism - Slipstream

I believe that this article has the duty to inform its readers that the Agnostics, theoretically, at least, by a kind of "Slipstream Argument", necessarily enters the religious people as group and that Agnosticism as such, whether theoretically or not, is diminishing in both force of message and numbers. This may alter the (voluntary/uncoerced) view of any reader, and therefore the duty. You? 109.189.211.11 (talk) 10:16, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

What, pray tell, is a “slipstream argument”? I don't know what your local demographics are, but in my country, surveys show Nones are on the rise, so agnostics would seem to be growing in number here, not diminishing. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 23:42, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Only that the Slipstream Argument demands the one who is seriously considering the idea of God, to enter the 4 entities, whether two of them are in this fashion or other, but that they list as follows crudely, Meaning, Ethics (10 Commandments), Description of God and Heaven as Affirmable Knowledge in order to get to God at all. So the only way for the credible Agnostic (to Christianity here) is to follow these 4 entities as the Path to God, and no way around them either. (At least, this is what it, the internet, says out there in the vastness of information.) 95.34.121.16 (talk) 23:31, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

What you vaguely describe seems related more to conversion to Christianity than to agnosticism. I don’t see anything there that would improve this article. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 20:13, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Page Protection?

It seems this page may need protection. WP:RFPP NaturaNaturans (talk) 20:55, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Agnosticism is not a belief

The page should make it clear that there are different views about the definitions: Agnosticism is not a belief, in fact, it is the pure absence of all beliefs (i.e. is equivalent to being Faithless, Unbeliever, or Infidel). By contrast, Atheism is the belief of the non-existence of gods, therefore Atheism is a belief system. Thus, to clarify:

1) People can be divided into two groups: Believers and Non-believers (Unbelievers, Agnostics, Infidels). 2) Believers can be divided into two further groups: Believers in the existence of gods (Theists) and Believers in the non-existence of gods (Atheists). 3) Theists can further be divided into: Believers in one god and Believers in more than one god, etc. Non credo (talk) 15:13, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Like our atheism article explains, atheism can mean either an affirmative belief that no deities exist, or an absence of belief in deities. Freethought groups generally describe the difference differently:

Theism/atheism has to do with belief, gnosticism/agnosticism has to do with knowledge. If you think you know whether or not a god exists, you're gnostic; if you don't know, you're agnostic. And you either have a belief in deities (theism), or you don't (atheism). These intersect in four ways:

• A gnostic theist thinks they know that a god or gods exist.
• An agnostic theist doesn't know whether any gods exist, but has a belief in them. Ex. Fideists are agnostic theists.
• A gnostic atheist thinks they know that no gods exist.
• An agnostic atheist doesn't know whether any gods exist, and does not have a belief in them.

Theists can be further categorized (monotheists vs polytheists) and so can atheists (implicit vs explicit atheists), but that's not particularly relevant to this article. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 21:18, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

I have to disagree. "Knowledge" cannot be brought into religion. There is no person who "knows" whether or not gods exist. Religion is purely a matter of faith, a matter of the existence or non-existence of "belief". Therefore, from a pure logical point of view, the notion of four possible combinations between "knowledge" and "belief" (colorfully illustrated in the figure in the wiki page) is ill-defined and must be discarded. It is not a two dimensional space (with "knowledge" & "belief" as the axes; as depicted in the figure) but rather a one dimensional space (just "belief" as the only axis, one side denoting its presence, and the opposite denoting its absence). The point where this becomes contentious is the issue of properly naming these two cases. A more purist approach of defining them would be "Believers/Faithful/Fidels" and "Unbelievers/Faithless/Infidels". In the most common definition, Agnosticism is also understood to mean the latter. The opposite of Agnosticism, i.e. Gnosticism is a fallacy, because, once again, one cannot "know" of the exitence of gods, but rather can only "believe that he/she knows" which in fact is nothing but a "belief". Therefore, the opposite of Agnosticism (i.e. "that does not know") is not Gnosticism (i.e. "that one knows"), because such "knowledge" does not exist, but is rather "belief". And "belief" itself can then be divided into "the belief that gods exist" (Theism, further consisting of Mono- and Multi-theism) and "the belief that gods do not exist" (Atheism). It is a difficult subject because of the ambiguity of definitions. Therefore, perhaps a better illustration would be thus:

• An Agnostic/Unbeliever/Faithless/Infidel would say "I do not know if gods exist", "gods may or may not exist", or simply "I do not believe" (whether or not gods exist).
• An Atheist would say "I do not believe gods exist" (soft Atheism, which does not rule out the opposite case of non-existence) or "I believe gods do not exist" (hard Atheism, which is now a statement of belief).
• A Theist would say "I believe gods exist"

This point of view may be worth expressing for the benefit of those who would be interested in such a discussion. Non credo (talk) 15:13, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I do not know or believe whether or not this guy is real... The gap between knowledge and belief is somewhat arbitrary, if only because beliefs tend to be irrational and knowledge itself is a belief in facts. Note however that popular agnostics that don't explicitly reject theism are still implicit atheists and are therefore firmly within the agnostic atheist category as such, but atheism definitions differ in this regard. Thus, the popular sense definition that is in the lede could be placed in the body proper under the heading Agnostic (popular sense) within the types section. Also, I wouldn't scrap the diagram since the agnostics which are NOT atheists, theists or gnostic are represented by it. -Modocc (talk) 08:13, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

The diagram does not imply that any section is actually populated (though it does not shade out any sections either). BUT there are agnostics who neither clearly believe in a deity, nor clearly reject belief in a deity, they have not or cannot figure out whether they believe or not - or their position may change hourly - so (unless one advocates implicit atheism as the "correct" definition of atheism [in my view, this definition has such major problems that IT should be rejected, btw]) that section would be populated.--JimWae (talk) 19:28, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

An XY diagram with labelled quadrants might be preferable, and less easily misread as a Venn diagram.

Vacillating, indecisive agnostics pose no problems for the dichotomy; they may indeed be agnostic atheists one hour and agnostic theists the next. At any moment, you're either a theist or you're not, however tentative your belief may be. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 22:37, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

An XY diagram is wrong, since agnosticism only concerns itself with the knowledge axis. Remove the Venn diagram and do not replace it with any diagram. Anyone vacillating should be considered an agnostic theist one day an an agnostic atheist the next. The term Agnostic should be kept for people who have a better understanding of what it means. Lack of knowledge, therefore no belief. Agnosticism is only defacto on the orthogonal chart at 0,0. The chart is useless for understanding what agnosticism is and how it relates to Theism and Atheism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Szkott (talk • contribs) 07:52, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Richard Dawkins had another view regarding agnostics all together... :-) Although I disagree with Dawkins' scale because for me, someone who thinks a god is 50% likely is really just an uncertain theist that thinks a god is very likely. So our definitions and their usage varies. The diagram could be misread as a Venn diagram (it doesn't have enough overlaps), but it is a Euler diagram. Which sets are populated really do depend on the definitions used and this fact might be made clearer in the caption. The only possible unpopulated position I don't quite see being occupied is the gnostic position (maybe knowledge of a pseudogod?). If an XY diagram is created, it must be constructed such that it is abundantly and explicitly clear which definitions are being used. Non credo's suggestion of creating a diagram that confers no overlaps is possible I think, and can be sourced. Perhaps what is needed though is for the current diagram to be replicated and shaded in accordance with different definitions to allow a visual comparison of the different predominant viewpoints. -Modocc (talk) 00:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Knowledge == v. strong, justified (to the subject) belief, the distinction being unimportant. Among those with an opinion, we have: Theists ("we are convinced God(s) exist(s)"), Atheists ("we are convinced Gods do not exist"), Agnostics ("we are convinced that we cannot know that"), Ignostics ("we believe the question is too poorly defined to address"). The latter two may overlap a bit with others, but it's their strongest opinion that defines them. That most agnostics tend towards atheism, I attribute to Occam's Razor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grey.dreyk (talk • contribs) 16:02, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

"Agnosticism is not properly described as a "negative" creed, nor indeed as a creed of any kind, except in so far as it expresses absolute faith in the validity of a principle, which is as much ethical as intellectual. This principle may be stated in various ways, but they all amount to this: that it is wrong for a man to say that he is certain of the objective truth of any proposition unless he can produce evidence which logically justifies that certainty. This is what Agnosticism asserts; and, in my opinion, it is all that is essential to Agnosticism. That which Agnostics deny and repudiate, as immoral, is the contrary doctrine, that there are propositions which men ought to believe, without logically satisfactory evidence; and that reprobation ought to attach to the profession of disbelief in such inadequately supported propositions. The justification of the Agnostic principle lies in the success which follows upon its application, whether in the field of natural, or in that of civil, history; and in the fact that, so far as these topics are concerned, no sane man thinks of denying its validity." Thomas Huxley, Agnosticism and Christianity

The original definition, as per Huxley, was NOT compatible with The-ism or Athe-ism (as per etymology, and original usage). He berated both of those positions.

"The extent of the region of the uncertain, the number of the problems the investigation of which ends in a verdict of not proven, will vary according to the knowledge and the intellectual habits of the individual Agnostic. I do not very much care to speak of anything as "unknowable."2 What I am sure about is that there are many topics about which I know nothing; and which, so far as I can see, are out of reach of my faculties. But whether these things are knowable by any one else is exactly one of those matters which is beyond my knowledge, though I may have a tolerably strong opinion as to the probabilities of the case. Relatively to myself, I am quite sure that the region of uncertainty–the nebulous country in which words play the part of realities -is far more extensive than I could wish." Thomas Huxley, Agnosticism and Christianity

Huxley also did NOT hold the position that anything was unknowable, except maybe to him, personally. Nothinheavy (talk) 20:56, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Euler Diagram

This is very simple and clear. If you say agnostic atheist, then agnostic is an adjective, not a noun. The noun is atheist. However, if one defines themselves as an agnostic, then agnostic is a noun. Huxley clearly defined agnosticism as a noun. People who identify with agnosticism, use it as a noun. The entire page is supposed to be about agnosticism, the noun. If you atheists that dominate this page do not agree to removing the fallacious Euler Diagram, then you will agree to have a qualifier that agnostic doesn't mean agnosticism as defined by Huxley, just like you do with the qualifier that gnostic doesn't mean Gnosticism. Cleary, without doubt, the Euler Diagram says Agnostic Atheist, which misleading treats agnostic as an adjective without any clarification.

You misunderstand the concept of agnosticism. If one defines him/herself as an agnostic, that doesn't mean that he or she isn't also a theist or an atheist. Agnosticism is not a third position in regard of belief - agnosticism deals with knowledge, not belief. If anything, the diagram is wrong in a way that it visually allows people to identify themselves only as agnostics, because you are never agnostic without at the same time being a theist or, more commonly, an atheist. You can think of it this way - the temperature of your drink is hot or cold, and regarding the content of your drink it is alcoholic or nonalcoholic. You have two independent axis' about your drink (the same way you have two independent axis' in relation to gods). If you only say that your drink is hot, that doesn't mean that at the same time it is neither alcoholic nor nonalcoholic. The fact that your drink is hot does not mean that it has no alcohol in it, or that it has alcohol in it, nor does it mean that it has alcohol somewhere between nonalcoholic and alcoholic drink (because that is impossible). The drink is never only hot - it is also alcoholic or nonalcoholic, transparent or has some color etc - it doesn't matter whether you specify its alcohol content or color, it it never only hot (or only cold). The same thing is with religious and philosophical categories - you are never only an (a)gnostic - you are also an (a)theist, whether you specify that or not.

BTW you commented Huxley's definition - Huxley said "Agnosticism, in fact, is not a creed, but a method, the essence of which lies in the rigorous application of a single principle." which basically means that agnosticism is not a thing, rather it is a method skeptical inquiry, and in that sense it should be used as an adjective. Marekich (talk) 04:52, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

"You have two independent axis' about your drink..", I agree and every axis has a null vector, which in your analogy is agnosticism. What if I ordered my drink and hadn't received it yet? I'm supposed to form a belief on the temperature of my drink even though I haven't received it yet? That's irrational, the logical course of action would be to suspend judgment due to lack of evidence, ie, the null vector in your axes analogy. When you don't have enough evidence to take a position, the logical course is to suspend judgment, not drum up some faith that your drink will be cold and then stick to that.

"Either the thing is true or it isn't. If it is true, you should believe it and if it isn't, you shouldn't. And ah, if you can't find out whether it's true or whether it isn't, you should suspend judgment." -Bertrand Russell

Agnosticism is, in general, the position of suspending judgment. And many people suspend judgment every day on many varying issues. And some times, suspending judgment is the logical course of action. Yet, when that suspension of judgment comes to the question of a gods existence, then all the sudden the atheist comes arguing that suspension of judgment is not a valid position. This is obviously the fallacy of special pleading, that somehow suspension of judgment is valid, unless the topic is god.

The Wikipedia page about shrimp doesn't mention anywhere the other meaning of shrimp as being a person of small stature, because the page for shrimp is about shrimp, the life form. The Wikipedia page about worms doesn't mention the other meaning of worm as being a deceitful individual, because the page is meant to be about worms, the life form. This page is supposed to be about agnosticism, the noun. People come here, because of agnosticism, the noun, just like people goto the page on shrimp, because they are interested in the life form, not the other meaning. And this page should represent what agnosticism is, not what atheists think it should be. That's the issue here. Atheists do not find the agnostic position philosophically pleasing and instead of just rejecting the position, they have some motive, some need, to redefine it.

I will be continuing to clean up the atheist propaganda on this page and you better be coming back with better arguments then Huxley saying agnosticism is a method, thus should be an adjective, when the 'scientific method' is clearly a noun. Next, the atheist will define themselves as scientific method atheists and then claim 'scientific method' the noun, doesn't exist anymore.IIXVXII (talk) 05:23, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Neither Huxley nor Russell are the last word on what agnosticism is, nor on what atheism is, nor on how they contrast. Agnosticism is what reliable sources say it is. One thing reliable sources say is that agnosticism is about knowledge. Some reliable sources indicate it also has some relevance to belief. We do not get to decide which reliable source is correct. This is an encyclopedia, which means that it aims to be comprehensive, including the views of all reliable sources & not restricting itself to any one.--JimWae (talk) 10:39, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Really Jim? So Wikipedia, as you say, IS an encyclopedia. Yet, when you look at dictionaries, you find a clear distinction being made between the noun and adjective meaning. Not here. When you look at encyclopedias like encyclopedia.com, brittanica.com, plato.stanford.edu you find no mention even of the term agnostic atheist under agnosticism. You do here. The label agnostic atheist, is not from agnostics, but from atheists. Under the noun definition of agnosticism, it's impossible to be atheist. Agnostic atheists deny the very existence of agnosticism. Agnostic atheism is not a 'Type of Agnosticism". It is the atheist objection to agnosticism.

Where is the atheist propaganda, so called, 'Euler' diagram on the Wikipedia Gnosticism page? The diagram is equally gnostic in representation as agnostic, why isn't it there? Because gnostic atheism is not a "Type of Gnosticism". Hence, why there is no category, not even the mention of the label on that page. But atheists don't feel threatened by gnosticism, so they don't try to change things there.

Can you even offer any logical reason, why a termed coined by atheists, defining a position that denies the very existence of agnosticism, is a type of agnosticism? How, in thee world of critical thinking, is it even possible, for a group of people that claim one is either theist or atheist to be put into a category that they don't even believe exists? Can you explain how this ludicrous reasoning has continued for so long on this page?IIXVXII (talk) 05:33, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

@IIXVXII - Regarding two independent axis - you either did't understand my analogy or you made a straw man argument. That analogy is about the drink you already have - work from there - realize that and think it over. If you still cannot understand the analogy, I can make you another kind analogy that might be easier for you to understand. The point is in two independent axis - something which you do not or do not want to recognize - one axis is belief (which you actually act upon), and the other is knowledge or relevance.

Regarding Bertrand Russels' quote - It either makes no sense (if you know something is true or false what is the point of believing one way or the other when you know?) or he uses different meaning of the words know and believe (I would argue this is the case). Not believing unsubstantiated claim is very similar to suspending judgement. Also, people act whether they believe something is true or not. For example, religious people pray to their gods even though they do not know that their gods exist! So you see - they might have "suspended their judgement" due to lack of (positive) evidence, but they act as if the claim of their god's existence is true!

While agnosticism might be suspending judgement about existence or relevance, that doesn't exclude the fact that you also either believe or do not believe. Are you not aware about courtroom analogy? It is usually used as analogy for a/theism, because many people do not realize that atheist does not necessarily believe no gods exist. In the court jury (or judge - whatever) judges the guilt of a person. They judge whether one is guilty or not guilty - they don't judge whether one is guilty or innocent! So you see - if someone is "accused" of theism, he or she is a theist or not a theist (an atheist). By this example you can tell that believing no gods exist is not necessary to be labeled as an atheist - it is enough to not have positive belief that at least one deity exists.

But let's apply courtroom analogy to agnosticism/atheism relation. The jury is AGNOSTIC about one's guilt (they weren't next to the person when the crime was committed)! They DO NOT KNOW whether one really committed the crime or not - they judge by what they believe. So, they can put innocent person to prison, and let guilty person go free. Do you finally understand the relation between knowledge (a/gnosticism) and belief (a/theism)? I would also advise you to read this relatively shor article: http://wiki.ironchariots.org/?title=Atheist_vs._agnostic Marekich (talk) 20:43, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

You cannot create independent axes (otherwise known as a vector space) without a null vector. You tried to create a vector space with no null vector, which is impossible. You can't just graph something and think it has meaning. You can't just assign things to axes and think people should care, when it doesn't satisfy the axioms for employing such tools. If you deny the null vector, then you are denied the use of these tools. It's that simple. Do you deny a null vector exists in your axis analogies?

You didn't address my comment on what I should believe about the temperature of my drink, when I haven't even received it yet.

"While agnosticism might be suspending judgement about existence or relevance, that doesn't exclude the fact that you also either believe or do not believe."

If you suspend judgment on whether to believe or disbelieve in God, then how can you also believe or disbelieve in God if that's exactly what you are suspending judgment about? How do you explain your contradictory reasoning?

You make a courtroom analogy and ignore the outcome of a hung jury.

" They DO NOT KNOW whether one really committed the crime or not - they judge by what they believe."

So you're claiming that the jurors verdict doesn't depend upon any of the knowledge they gained in the proceedings of the court? Then what's even the point of having a trial? Why even produce evidence, rational arguments...knowledge? Because belief is based upon faith and/or knowledge, not just faith. I don't know for certain that humans will ever travel to the second closest star, but I have knowledge of what humans can achieve. I have knowledge on what physics allows us to do. And this knowledge leads me to believe we will someday get to the second closest star. We want people to believe things based upon what they know. We don't want people believing things based upon nothing. Is that what you're advocating? That we should have beliefs based upon no knowledge? It is, because as an average atheist, that's exactly what you want agnostics to do. You want agnostics to form a belief about God, when agnostics are telling you, they lack the knowledge to form that belief and reject forming that belief on faith.

I claim 27 hangers exist in my closet. I want you to think about this, gather as much knowledge about how many hangers I have in my closet as you can and then tell me what you believe about my existence claim. Will you believe these 27 hangers exist (theist)? Will you disbelieve these 27 hangers exist (atheist)? Or is there a third alternative?

"Either the thing is true or it isn't. If it is true, you should believe it and if it isn't, you shouldn't. And ah, if you can't find out whether it's true or whether it isn't, you should suspend judgment." -Bertrand Russell

Do you understand Russell now? We will see, when you answer my claim. By the way, no matter how much you think, no matter how much you search, you will never find any knowledge on how many hangers exist in my closet. How do you answer my claim?IIXVXII (talk) 05:33, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

The 3rd alternative is to reject any belief about the number of hangers in your closet, including 0. Rejecting all beliefs about how many hangers exist in your closet is not the same as believing the number is 0. While hangers are physical, not metaphysical - still, rejecting any belief about the number of gods is not the same as believing the number is 0.

Neither Russell nor Huxley have a monopoly in this area. The diagram reflects the sources - except that it should be "Does/Does not claim knowledge" instead of "... proof exists" -- for which reason the previous diagram was better.

Kierkegaard is a prime example of an agnostic theist

In the current diagram, the way you want to use Agnostic is in the blue region on top. Some sources say this region is populated, some say it is not. The diagram makes no claim about which are populated --JimWae (talk) 05:57, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

" ...still, rejecting any belief about the number of gods is not the same as believing the number is 0."

Exactly, hence the difference between agnosticism and atheism. Agnostics reject all beliefs about God, while atheists hold a belief that leans towards 0.IIXVXII (talk) 07:01, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

• One of the definitions of atheism is rejecting belief -- w/o claiming (either to know or to believe) that no gods exist.
• Btw, what is the 3rd agnostic alternative to 1. believing in the existence of a deity, but not claiming to know such exists & 2. rejecting belief that any deity exists, but not claiming to know if any exist or not?----JimWae (talk) 07:06, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
• It is patently false that all "agnostics reject all beliefs about God" (as you say a few lines above). Kierkegaard is a primary example of an agnostic theist - and there are multitudes of theists who do not claim to know a god exists. You are claiming a privileged usage of "agnostic".--JimWae (talk) 07:14, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

---

Where does the diagram represent agnosticism? If the union is defined as agnostic atheist, then clearly, the adjective meaning is being used and the blue region becomes nonsense, because one can't simply be an adjective. The diagram was produced by atheists that don't believe agnosticism even exists, hence why it's not represented in the diagram. That's hardly neutral. The diagram may not explicitly say agnosticism doesn't exist, but it's clearly designed to imply that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IIXVXII (talk • contribs) 06:21, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

But one can be AN agnostic, no? The old diagram was better & I have changed the caption --JimWae (talk) 06:24, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Let's not argue the intent of persons not present and/or unknown--JimWae (talk) 06:26, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Btw, what is the 3rd agnostic alternative to 1. believing in the existence of a deity, but not claiming to know such exists & 2. rejecting belief that any deity exists, but not claiming to know if any exist or not?--JimWae (talk) 06:33, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

If the unions were labelled atheistic agnostic & theistic agnostic, that would not imply none of atheism & theism & atheists & theists do not exist--JimWae (talk) 06:37, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

You've got to be joking. How can I take you serious when you revert to a previously problematic diagram. I shouldn't talk about people's motives when you insist upon displaying atheist propaganda? One cannot have an Euler diagram when the yellow region is agnostic the noun and the union is agnostic that adjective. That is obviously the fallacy of equivalence and the fallacy of ambiguity. You offer no logical reason why you continue to support these obvious fallacies. Having something isn't better than nothing when that something is fallacious. IIXVXII (talk) 06:37, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

If the unions were labelled atheistic agnostic & theistic agnostic, that would not imply none of atheism & theism & atheists & theists do not exist----JimWae (talk) 06:39, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Look at the comments here --JimWae (talk) 06:42, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Can you name the people who made the diagram? On what basis do you determine their position? Actually the maker of the worse one identifies as agnostic.--JimWae (talk) 06:44, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

---

Euler-break-1

The source of the image clearly says Marekich.IIXVXII (talk) 07:01, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

• and you have a source for his theological position?--JimWae (talk) 07:06, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Marekich clearly said, in this very category, "Agnosticism is not a third position..." And this person edits and offers images to agnosticism? A person that denies agnosticism even exists.IIXVXII (talk) 07:31, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

• Actually the maker of the older one (the one that does not even include the word agnostic) -- upon which the newer one was based -- identifies as agnostic.
• What policy or guideline justifies "One cannot have an Euler diagram when the blue region is agnostic the noun and the union is agnostic the adjective"?--JimWae (talk) 07:10, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I can't believe these are your rebuttal arguments. "What policy or guideline justifies "One cannot have an Euler diagram when the blue region is agnostic the noun and the union is agnostic the adjective"?" Clearly, without doubt, WP:POV.

"NPOV means that people should write the things that almost everyone agrees about..." and most people do not agree with the use of logical fallacies as a means of informing people. You cannot have a diagram where agnostic means two different things and portray it as one. This is the fallacy of equivalence and the fallacy of ambiguity. When do you actually offer a rebuttal to my claim that the diagram is fallacious?IIXVXII (talk) 07:31, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

If you've ever taken some time to actually read WP:NPOV you'd see that you have not properly characterized NPOV. As WP:NPOV says in the very first paragraph: NPOV means that ALL significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic are to be represented fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias. There's absolutely nothing about adjectives (nor compound nouns, btw)--JimWae (talk) 07:37, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I am seriously shocked at your behavior. The diagram is a textbook fallacy and you're going to try and hide behind the Wikipedia rules? I have no doubt that they would agree with me, that the use of logical fallacies is not an acceptable means of informing people.IIXVXII (talk) 08:08, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

• It was you who appealed to the WP:NPOV policy to justify a revert. If you better understood NPOV, it would eliminate many of your objections (such as wanting to have everything conform to the "most popular" definition). The wiki policies & guidelines are not things to hide -- nor to hide behind -- nor to ignore -- nor to MISREPRESENT. Your objections keep changing. The caption I rewrote for the better diagram talks about theological positions. The positions that can be taken are those of an agnostic, a theist, an atheist, a gnostic, an agnostic theist, an agnostic atheist,... I worked on the wording to deal with your objection. If the 4 circles had been authoritarian, libertarian, capitalist & socialist, then just because the intersections would be authoritarian capitalist, authoritarian socialist, capitalistic libertarian, & socialistic libertarian (note that everything is used as an adjective somewhere [alternatively, they could be seen as compound nouns ]) would not mean that NONE of the nouns "exist". The caption I wrote specifically says that which regions are populated depends on how agnostic & atheism are defined/understood. One could take the position (which seems to be yours) that none of the intersections are populated. I believe all your objections have already been met, that you have NOT properly presented any wiki-guideline to support your bold assertions, that nobody else is supporting what you say, & that it is time to stop your BEHAVIOUR of reverting everyone else here.--JimWae (talk) 08:19, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

The diagram is not in fallacy. The usage is consistent along the same lines as having the circle of all FAT things and intersecting them with FAT PIG, FAT COW and FAT HEAD. In other words agnostic is consistently being used as an adjective to form a compound noun. The noun of Agnostic has the assumed second word god included and by some definitions it is equivalent to agnostic atheist where the atheist is dropped off or possibly the apatheist (agnostic) which just doesn't entertain the concept of deities. JimWae is correct about the NPOV policy. It is about placing all the common POV's into the article at some point but it does not require removal of all but the most common POV (if that can even be proven) or making sure all POV are covered in any one diagram or any one paragraph in the article. Whether you capitalize the word Atheist or Agnostic can have meaning in these discussions. Alatari (talk) 10:50, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I was trying to develop a Eulern diagram which also included ignostic and apatheist along with strong and weak agnostics because I'm a very visual person and it would cement the concepts for me best but I gave up. Alatari (talk) 11:05, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

If a person has never encountered the concept of a deity wouldn't they be a default agnostic to that deity? Some people may have not heard of Amitabha celestial Buddha and so for all of their lives (using algebraic function notation) they would have been agnostic[Amitabha] from lack of knowledge as well as atheist[Amitabha] from lack of belief. Here comes the tricky part. Once someone has had the deities concept described to them and seen the source materials and witness testimony about Amitabha but they lack a personal exposure to the deity (no visions, no voices, etc) what type of agnostic are they at that point? If they consider the source material and the Sutras valid enough evidence for the existence of the deity then they can leave the realm of agnosticism and become gnostic-theist[Amitabha]. If they do not believe there is enough evidence for Amitabha but have a enough belief that they chant his name and wish to enter the Western Paradise someday and continue to seek more knowledge of him then they would be agnostic-theists[Amitabha]. Even after reading the Sutras and evaluating them as inconsistent or insufficient then the person can be gnostic-atheist[Amitabha] or if they are willing to allow that further knowledge may bring the realization that Amitabha is real they would be agnostic-atheist[Amitabha]. There is an underlying belief in sufficiency of the knowledge/evidence that is in play here that I'm not in complete understanding of and what words to use to describe it. Beliefs or faith about what is sufficient evidence or what sources are to be trusted are in play when a person is to cross between the diagram positions. Alatari (talk) 11:59, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Fine, I'll play your Wikipedia rules game. I tried to be reasonable with you, but you're clearly not interested in that.

Concerning original images, Wikipedia says " Original images created by a Wikipedian are not considered original research, so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments..."

There is no source that suggests agnosticism overlaps with theism and atheism, as the diagram had. There is no source that defines gnostic like the diagram had. There is no source that says this unsourced definition of gnostic, then overlaps with theism and atheism. There is no source for anything the diagram represented. The diagram is illustrating unpublished work and is thus, original research.

Further, articles should not give minority views as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views. Agnostic atheism, as described by the Smith source, carries with it that agnosticism is not a valid third alternative. The more widely held view is that agnosticism is a valid third alternative, as expressed in the rest of the sources. Yet, the minority view gets the privilege of not only having its own diagram, but to be the only diagram in the entire article. Giving the minority viewpoint such a privilege, gives it undue weight, violating a neutral point of view.

Finally, the diagram and caption suppressed information. No where did the diagram or caption let the reader know, that the term agnostic atheist uses the adjective meaning of agnostic and that it's position carries along with it, as described by the Smith source, that agnosticism the noun, is not a valid third alternative. Suppression of information violates the neutral point of view.IIXVXII (talk) 14:16, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

• You seem to be repeating arguments that have already been answered. The new one is that "there are no sources for the intersections". There clearly are, though more than one needs to be presented.
• Btw, to answer my own Q which seems to have been ignored: what is the 3rd agnostic alternative to 1. believing in the existence of a deity, but not claiming to know such exists & 2. rejecting belief that any deity exists, but not claiming to know if any exist or not? The answer is 3. Not claiming to know whether any deity exists (or not) and SUSPENDING belief (not rejecting it). This may not be your position, but it is a position that has the blue area at the top populated. As such, atheism is defined as rejection of belief - not just absence of belief. The diagram takes no position on any definition or on what regions are populated. It supposes only that the overlaps make sense under some definitions.
• Btw, Rowe has 3 catefories of agnosticism weak, moderate & strong based on different attitudes to belief. What is common to all 3 of his is that agnosticism is differntiated as being about knowledge. His categorization differs from the weak/strong presented in the article & it needs to be added------JimWae (talk) 17:29, 20 July 2013 (UTC) (signed after posting)

Again, the Euler diagram categories are ALL adjectives. The subject modified is PEOPLE. The top circle is the circle of all Agnostic PEOPLE. The intersection is Agnostic AND Atheist PEOPLE. You object strongly that there is a missing Euler for the sources you can always create another diagram. Alatari (talk) 19:26, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Alternate Eulers'

Do any of these appear to fit your concept of this topic better than the one currently in the article? I suspect there exists an actual philosophy text book used for a college course from the last decade with a prepared Euler diagram but I can not find one sourced. These are grabbed off the web and ownership is unknown:

• Single axis belief tri circle: [1]
• quadrant with gnostic/theism axis [2]
• another quadrant: [3]
• tri-circle in implicit non-believer (babies, and lower intelligence like I described above in levels of belief) universe each intersection explained: [4]
• similar to above with complete explanations: [5]
• an odd one: [6]
• An attempt at a much more complete overall Euler: [7]
• I wish we could use this one: [8] Alatari (talk) 19:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

So none of my objections were answered, nor has anyone named any source for the diagram. It's pointless debating theology with you people, because you're only concerned with what the rules allow. And the rules do not allow you to generate images that have no source. The rules do not allow you to give undue weight to the minority view by giving it the only diagram in the entire article. Nor do the rules allow you to suppress the information about the agnostic atheist position being one of denying the agnostic position. If these objections are not taken more seriously than I will put a NPOV:Dispute on this page.IIXVXII (talk) 22:36, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

• The last diagram that was in the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Theological_positions.svg is better than any of the above - and quite adequate. It does indeed have a region of agnostics that are neither agnostic theists nor agnostic atheists - and thus is already NPOV.

As the Smith source clearly states, agnosticism is not a valid third position. Creating a diagram that has agnosticism as a third position means, you cannot use the Smith source. The diagram is original research, it suppresses information and gives undue weight to the minority viewpoint by being the only diagram in the entire article, putting forth the agnostic atheist position and not the traditionally accepted academic definition.IIXVXII (talk) 22:56, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

• IIXVXII, you have violated WP:3RR and are liable to a 24 hour block. If you revert yourself you might be OK...--JimWae (talk) 00:29, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Ohhhhhh, I'm so scared.IIXVXII (talk) 22:56, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

You are under the burden to provide a diagram that you feel support the majority POV since you are the one pushing for it. I placed a series of various diagrams above for you to critique and suggest if any are closer to your position if you do not wish to create a diagram. We can get permission from an author or recreate our own if any are suitable.

You are the one putting up the diagram, it is your burden of proof.IIXVXII (talk) 22:56, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I have already countered your objection that the diagram is a logical fallacy because all the words are adjectives in the Euler diagram. It is unclear where we are suppressing the agnostic atheist position since we are just discussing this one diagram and the two positions are distinct on the diagram. Each person that takes a position in the diagram is capable of denying the other positions. Denying is an action verb which is is hard to represent in a 2 dimensional non-moving diagram.

I'm sure this diagram has been debated many times before on this talk page and I'll dig up the archives. Alatari (talk) 00:33, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

OK, it looks like you came in about a year ago with this same exact dispute and was opposed by several editors and the diagram was retained. Has some thing changed in the last year? Alatari (talk) 02:06, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I was the one that fixed the Huxley quote from the standard misquote found on atheist websites.IIXVXII (talk) 22:56, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Is this the position you are pushing? Agnosticism of Rowe that is a distinct position. Would it help if the agnostic area was a single color? It seems you did not even take the time to review the alternate Euler's I posted. This Euler diagram curerently used in the article does have a distinct area of a single color for agnostic people and it could be labeled as the Rowe area. I do not sense a spirit of cooperation from you as an editor on this article. Alatari (talk) 02:18, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

There is one thing missing from the current diagram Venn diagram and that is the position of babies, animals, rocks as this one does (except it spells belive lol). They can not have knowledge nor belief in a deity and a good comparison baseline for someone trying to learn these concepts. Alatari (talk) 02:43, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

• Babies & rocks cannot be agnostics, since they cannot take a position (btw, I (& others) contend atheism is also a position - i.e. rejection of belief). Since this is the agnostic article, not the atheism article, the diagram should focus on agnosticism (as the latest does) & not on extraneous topics. XVIIVXXIIXXIIVV has violated WP:3RR & can be blocked if he continues to revert.--JimWae (talk) 03:04, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

I think the objections of XVIIVXXIIXXIIVV could be ameliorated by labeling the diagram Agnostic section with a label to the Rowe source. Alternately an Euler diagram with a single horizontal axis belief and three circles could be used to present the Rowe view. It would take minutes to create. Alatari (talk) 06:54, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

I see, so now you're going to mock my name and you think that makes you look intelligent? That tells me I'm dealing with the mentality of a child.IIXVXII (talk) 22:57, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I know this is very late but I did not mock you. I copied your name like so User:IIXVXIIIIXVXII, deleted the User: part and in my haste forgot to delete the redundancy. Now, I will say that it appears you have an unsteady control on your emotional release. I did not hold any animosity towards you throughout the debate as I am very used to this kind of give and take on atheist Facebook forums. They can be very contentious. 97.85.168.22 (talk) 05:31, 3 October 2013 (UTC)