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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 79.177.138.167 (talk) at 16:43, 25 January 2014 (→Semi-protected edit request on 25 January 2014: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Former featured articleIsrael is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 8, 2008.
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February 16, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
May 25, 2007Good article nomineeListed
September 4, 2007Peer reviewReviewed
September 30, 2007Featured article candidatePromoted
June 23, 2010Featured article reviewDemoted
April 20, 2012Peer reviewReviewed
Current status: Former featured article
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Tel Aviv as second capital in infobox

Although I do support the idea of Jerusalem being the capital of Israel, would it not be appropriate to also mention Tel Aviv as the other capital in the infobox as it is disputed? 23haveblue (talk) 18:02, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tel Aviv is not a second capital, or indeed any capital at all. —Ynhockey (Talk) 20:31, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, why bother having the word disputed in there? 23haveblue (talk) 02:32, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia content has to be presented in a neutral way. In Wikipedia's terms that means information must comply with WP:NPOV, a mandatory policy. After about a decade of dispute over the issue of how to present the status of Jerusalem, the community decided that using Wikipedia's unattributed neutral narrative voice to state as a fact that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel does not comply with policy. See Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Jerusalem for details. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:16, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Some countries and some authors claim that Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel. Their reasonning is certainly that given Jerusalem's choice was rejected by the international community the former capital had to be given. Anyway, this is a [unsignificant] fringe's point of view and that, as far as I know, no WP:RS has put forward for years.
Pluto2012 (talk) 06:27, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As an Israeli citizen, I've never heard that claim before. Historically, religiously, and legally, Jerusalem is the official capital of Israel. However, as can be seen in the article, Tel Aviv is indeed the country's undisputed financial capital. Yambaram (talk) 08:02, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I'm trying to suggest, we either remove the (disputed) from the infobox or we put both Tel Aviv and Jerusalem as the capital. Comments?23haveblue (talk) 01:37, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's not "getting at" anything. If Tel Aviv isn't the capital, it isn't the capital. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 01:56, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The capital is a city where the central government of a country, or part of a country, such as a state, province, or county, is. In the same aspect, Haifa is the capital of trade, Eilat is the capital of vacations, and so on. Hope that helps Yambaram (talk) 08:07, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This all affair reminds me the story that a Japanese newspaper, who "wanted to maintain NPOV" in Jerusalem as Israel's capital wrote that the Knesset is located in Tel Aviv. I don't know how many Japanese tourists visited Tel Aviv and searched in vain for the Knesset's building there. Jerusalem is the de-facto capital of Israel. MathKnight 12:19, 15 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@ 23haveblue
We agree for Tel Aviv.
The problem of stating that Jerusalem would be the capital of Israel is that no country in the world does recognize this choice because of the political situation and because of East-Jerusalem. So it is disputed because nobody recognizes this. Pluto2012 (talk) 15:20, 15 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I assume you're mistakenly calling the U.S., Israel, myself and millions of other individuals "nobody", so I just wanted to make this correction. The political situation regarding this topic is indeed complicated and if the Palestinians also want to call it their capital then so be it, but that won't change the reality. Yambaram (talk) 22:58, 24 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The US does not recognize Jerusalem as Israel's or anyone else's capital. Perhaps you should look into what/who it was that misinformed you and led you to believe something that isn't true so that you can avoid that source of information in future. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:03, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think Yambaram might have been relying on the CIA sourcebook which states (rather baldly) that Jerusalem is the capital, though it qualifies that in a footnote(much as we do, by the way). But then, I rather agree with Sean that the CIA is not a source to be relied upon. Ravpapa (talk) 05:27, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We explicitly mentioned that as part of the set of source summary statements for the Jerusalem RFC via "Many sources list Jerusalem as the capital of Israel when there is little room for nuance, but in prose, sources often use qualifiers which show that the status as capital was achieved unilaterally", citing the CIA Factbook. I think the CIA are quite neutral on these issues in terms of their products, much more neutral than many editors e.g. their interpretation/annotation of File:Greater Jerusalem May 2006 CIA remote-sensing map 3500px.jpg and File:West_Bank_July_2008_CIA_remote-sensing_map_3000px.jpg. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:00, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the CIA might be neutral in this case, but I would never call them reliable. I expect a reliable source to tell the truth most of the time, not just once in a while, when it suits. (anyway, this is neither here nor there). Ravpapa (talk) 15:34, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As I pointed out in this discussion months ago, April 2013 this article is quite worthy of noting the unofficial capital of Israel as Tel Aviv, for the reasons already argued, I see no harm in including it in the article as it would only improve the article by showing readers the unofficial capital which also serves as a major cultural hub for the Israeli populus. There's no intellectual reason to list an "official" capital that is highly disputed without listing the nation's unofficial capital for reference as well. Again, it's widely known as such,1. http://www.prima-hotels-israel.com/prima-hotels/tel-aviv-hotels 2. http://goisrael.about.com/od/JerusalemandTelAviv/Jerusalem-And-Tel-Aviv.htm 3. http://israel21c.org/news/tel-aviv-among-top-party-cities/ 4. http://www.chiff.com/travel/guides/israel.htm 5. http://www.go-telaviv.com/tel-aviv-israel.html Silvertrail (talk) 21:01, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yambarah the USA only recognizes a De Facto annexation of East Jerusalem. As I understand The Supreme Court of Israel only recognizes a De Facto annexation of East Jerusalem. A renamed West Jerusalem now known as Jerusalem may be the De Jure capital of Israel. Israel may have extended some De Facto control that it had over East Jerusalem to the Renamed West Jerusalem. However it's not clear if anybody recognizes the De jure annexation of East Jerusalem including Israel.198.45.184.25 (talk) 01:16, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Britain defeated the Ottoman forces in the Levant with the help of Arab fighters which it promptly betrayed. Unjust creations such as this propaganda article and it's subject require protection from open discussion.


British forces invading from Egypt defeated the Ottoman forces in the Levant with the help of Arab allies they betrayed.

Not done: please make your request in a "change X to Y" format. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 05:14, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

university info mismatch

The first paragraph under "Science and technology" says "Israel's eight public universities are subsidized by the state. The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel's oldest university, houses the Jewish National and University Library, the world's largest repository of books on Jewish subjects." However a quick check (List of Israeli universities and colleges) shows that:

  • The Technion was established over half a decade before the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
  • There are nine public universities

Am I missing something? --CyberXReftalk 05:30, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • There are now nine universities in Israel. Ariel was added in July 2012. Note that Ariel is located in Shomron (west bank) and as such is in disputed territory.
  • According to the Hebrew wiki, Technion was founded in 24 and Hebrew uni in 25.

It's probably time someone updated these. 109.186.29.25 (talk) 13:54, 21 December 2013 (UTC)Roy[reply]

Well 1912 and 1925. Thanks for the clarification. I will look for some references and update that section. --CyberXReftalk 16:27, 21 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Follow-up, I see what you mean about Ariel: JPost Article: On 17 July 2012, the Council for Higher Education in Judea and Samaria voted to grant the institution full university status. --CyberXReftalk 16:34, 21 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry guys but Ariel is not in a disputed territory but in an occupied territory and as such cannot be counted among the Israeli universities. The article [[[List of Israeli universities and colleges]] is clear and well-written regarding this issue.
Pluto2012 (talk) 16:39, 21 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The disputed territory issue left aside, it is a founded by Israel and in 2012ref it was upgraded to a University statues by the Council for Higher Education in Israel, thus making it a 9th public university. It's not up to us to excluded just because it's in a disputed area (WP:NPOV). --CyberXReftalk 18:06, 21 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Reading some more about this, by being upgraded it to a University status, Ariel gets a serious increase in Educational funding since it gets treated as another public university. This can not be overlooked and ignored, despite the fact it's the first beyond the Green Line. From all practical purposes it's certainly a ninth public university. (accreditation, funding, and status) --CyberXReftalk 18:25, 21 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It is not disputed that it is a 9th Israeli university.
Anyway it is no more disputed that it is not the 9th university in Israel.
A way to solve this is to add to avoid misunderstanding that it is in the occupied territories.
Nb: we have no time for childish quarrel. So, stop talking about "disputed territories" and don't try to use these wordings. You will be reverted.
Pluto2012 (talk) 17:46, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 2 January 2014

On the right part of the page near the top, there is an incorrect name for Israel. 71.93.199.253 (talk) 02:41, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Palestinian state

Some users have cited the General Assembly resolution that recognizes a state of Palestine in order to make edits that Israel shares borders with Palestine. Resolutions of the General Assembly are not binding, even at the United Nations. The United Nations Charter makes clear that only the Security Council can recognize states. (An editor made a baseless and unexplained accusation of "Palestine denialism" in his/her edit summary, which is completely unprofessional and non-collegial). Greater explanation of Israel's borders, the West Bank's borders, the status of Israeli–Palestinian negotiations, and Palestinian statehood is already included in the article, and in many cases already in the lead. We need not POV push when discussing which entities it currently shares a border with.

In addition, these territories are controlled by separate entities, with Hamas in effective control of the Gaza Strip and the Palestinian Authority (along with the Israeli military) controlling the West Bank. The World Factbook has no entry on the Palestinian territories; it has entries each for the West Bank and Gaza Strip. See its map of Israel and its neighbors here. Most maps likewise name those territories as such. For the sake of neutrality and readability, the article states that Israel shares its border with the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Symbolic UN recognition, though significant, is a side issue here. No mainstream news source systematically refers to the territory as the state of Palestine. For more information, see this article, explaining how "the gap between the symbolic U.N. nod and the reality on the ground remains wide." Indeed, mainstream news reports and comments by government officials all indicate that a Palestinian state has not yet been established. See examples below, all published after the symbolic UN nod:

  • "However, Palestinian officials close to the talks have said Israel proposed to keep control of the valley and of West Bank border crossings with Jordan for 40 years after a Palestinian state is established. ... The Palestinians seek a state in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem, lands Israel captured in the 1967 Mideast war." [1]
  • "The U.S. says a Palestinian state should be established alongside Israel, with the border between them based, with some modifications, on Israel's 1967 frontier, before it captured the West Bank, Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem." [2]
  • "The Palestinians want a state in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem, lands Israel captured in 1967, but are ready to accept some modifications..." [3]

--Precision123 (talk) 09:03, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Can you elaborate on why you want to remove the term 'Palestinian territories' ? Setting aside the mention of a State of Palestine, I am unable to understand why anyone would oppose a statement that said "the Palestinian territories comprising the West Bank and Gaza Strip on the east and southwest respectively" given the extensive use of that term to describe the West Bank and Gaza Strip by government, media and NGO sites. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:24, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your input. The first part of the sentence is about geography--Israel's borders/neighbors--not about choosing names for territorial entities. The West Bank and Gaza Strip are in a state of flux, with their final status to be negotiated. I strongly recommend following the examples set forth by CIA World Factbook [4], the Congressional Research Service [5], BBC [6], the Associated Press [7], Merriam-Webster [8], and others when it comes to this matter. Keep it simple, readable, and stick to the geography. As many of these maps note "Final status of Gaza and the West Bank is to be determined by Israel and the Palestinian Authority." (See, e.g., World Factbook and Merriam Webster).
This point has a lot to do with readability as well. The way it stood before, as you or another editor wrote it, was: "Israel ... is a country in Western Asia, on the south-eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea. It shares land borders with Lebanon in the north, Syria in the northeast, Jordan on the east, the Palestinian territories (or State of Palestine) comprising the West Bank and Gaza Strip on the east and southwest respectively, Egypt and the Gulf of Aqaba in the Red Sea to the south, and it contains geographically diverse features within its relatively small area." This is a run-on sentence. It should go simply in relevant order (i.e., north, south, east, west) as this is just about geography. Any editor could click either the "West Bank" or the "Gaza Strip" and see its status as a Palestinian territory--a status which is now different between the two of them. As I noted, this first part of the introduction is about geography. Any discussion of politics or greater explanation of who controls what and to what extent should follow in the next paragraphs in the article. --Precision123 (talk) 09:43, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But is going in order optimal if it means that readers are not made aware that there is an object called the Palestinian territories comprising the West Bank and Gaza Strip ? This seems like a rather important piece of information. The Palestinian territories, not "Palestinian territory", is a description at the same level as the other objects listed, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt which are also made up on sub-regions. The only difference for the Palestinian territories being that it is comprised of 2 spatially separated objects. Why the shift in regional level ? Do you not think that readers should be made aware that the West Bank and Gaza Strip are, as far as many RS are concerned, one entity called the Palestinian territories ? Why do you strongly recommend following the examples set forth by those samples when you could have picked other samples such as US State dept, BBC, UN etc ? There are many others of course. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:24, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 25 January 2014

where it says state of israel add dawlat israeil under it 79.177.138.167 (talk) 16:43, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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