Talk:Testosterone

Talk page archived

I archived the previous talk page because it was enormous. There were 40 topic headers, but no user signatures from 2009, so I assume none are current discussions. — VoxLuna ☾ ^orbit_land   05:45, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Testosterone and skin thickness?

Does testosterone make the skin thicker? Do men have thicker skin than women, in general? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.67.57 (talk) 08:07, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the question should be whether loss of testosterone leads to thinner or fragile skin and if testosterone replacement therapy then restores skin thickness. The answer to that, with older men, often is yes, and skin thickness and elasticity can be restored when T levels are restored. Thinning of of the skin is from collagen loss. It would appear that the thinning and fragility of skin that comes with old age may significantly a result of lost testosterone levels. As for your original question, women have softer plumper skin as a result of their estrogen levels and perhaps other factors. What do you mean by 'thicker skin'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by KSman (talk • contribs) 20:20, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Testosterone and corpus callosum

Claims regarding the sexual dimorphism of the corpus callosum did not seem to be supported by the corpus callosum article, so I removed them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.167.111.212 (talk) 14:24, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Not Enough Information for Physiology

THis article does not give key information such as where the hormone is secreted nor does it give the exact locations as to where it is produced and lacks alot of information on the role it has in homostasis or the source of control: the means by which the secretion of this hormone is regulated. Too much information is wasted on its use in sports and not enough information is given on the cells and glands invovled in it. In others words this article is highly uninformative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.157.159 (talk) 00:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

It also mentions nothing of the target tissues or organs nor what the response of the target tissue or organ is to the hormone. So much important information is lacking why hasn't this been fized yet????

Clearly this article needs to be expanded and reorganized, but at least some of the information that you have requested is already there:

* where the hormone is secreted – "testes" (Testosterone#Biosynthesis)

* nor does it give the exact locations as to where it is produced – "Leydig cells" (see Testosterone#Biosynthesis section)

* the means by which the secretion of this hormone is regulated – "Estradiol rather than testosterone serves as the most important feedback signal to the hypothalamus (especially affecting LH secretion)." (Testosterone#Mechanism_of_action)

* not enough information is given on the cells and glands invovled in it – "Sertoli cells" (Testosterone#Physiological_effects)

* mentions nothing of the target tissues or organs – "bone and muscle mass", "maturation of the sex organs" (Testosterone#Physiological_effects)

I have been meaning to improve this article further. In the mean time, please keep in mind the following:

Thank you for your suggestion regarding Testosterone. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to).

Cheers. Boghog (talk) 21:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Related Drugs

This section needs more references. I have a long list and will add them soon. In terms of finasteride, the NEJM Prostate Cancer Trial should be referenced. Drbarrywheeler (talk) 18:27, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your contributions, however any detailed discussion of finasteride really belongs in the article about finasteride rather than this article which is about testosterone. Finasteride is only one example of a 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor. Furthermore, the subject of 5-alpha-reductase inhibitors is somewhat peripheral to the central subject of this article. Hence the section on related drugs should give an overview of the classes of drugs that mimic or block the effects or biosynthesis of testosterone and/or DHT and not get bogged down in the details of any specific drug. On the other hand, citations to review articles which discuss classes of drugs related to testosterone and their pharmacological effects would be most welcome. Other more specific citations about individual drugs should be added to drug specific articles. Boghog (talk) 19:41, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

SHBG

SHBG bound T [SHBG-T], does not transport testosterone to any T receptors as the T is too tightly bound; and is thus not bio-active. SHBG-T delivers T to the liver for clearance. SHBG can transport and release estrogens and this leads to the misconception that it does the same for T. Bio-active testosterone levels [bio-T] can be determined with lab tests that report bio-T as the total of free T [FT] and weakly bound T. Weakly bound T is mostly T bound to albumin. Total testosterone levels [TT] include free T, weakly bound T and SHBG-T.

When SHBG levels are high, SHBG-T goes up and FT and bio-T go down.

As the definition of bio-T implies, SHBG-T is not part of bio-T and is thus not bio-active.

This content: "Like most hormones, testosterone is supplied to target tissues in the blood where much of it is transported bound to a specific plasma protein, sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG)."

Should be edited as SHBG-T does not deliver T to target tissue [receptors].

The article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_hormone-binding_globulin does not imply that SHBG-T delivers T to T receptors, only that most of the T in circulation is SHBG-T.

and "Like most hormones, testosterone is supplied to target tissues in the blood" should read "Like most hormones, testosterone is supplied to target tissues via the blood" - as target tissues are not in the blood

While the article does not state explicitly that SHBG-T delivers T to T receptors, it is unclear and perpetuates the often repeated mis-conception that it does. 68.91.152.231 (talk) 04:10, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

The "free hormone hypothesis" states that only free and albumin bound forms of sex steroid hormones are available for diffusion into cells (see PMID 16469688). This is certainly the generally accepted theory. However recent research suggests that megalin acts as a receptor for SHBG including a variant of SHBG called the androgen binding protein (ABP). Furthermore ABP/testosterone complex can be internalized into the cell by megalin where it is degraded in lysosomes releasing free testosterone that can bind to the androgen receptor (see PMID 16143106 and PMID 19646505). This theory is supported by the observation that megalin deficient patients display signs of androgen deficiency. It still may be true that the majority of testosterone is delivered to target tissue as in free and albumin bound forms, however this new research raises the possibility that at least some testosterone may be delivered bound to ABP. Boghog (talk) 19:53, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Castration, aging, and health

A section "castration, aging, and health" may be added in the content because although low testosterone may lead to aging and dementia, the castrated people in history could still live a long life which is relatively healthy and common. (Comment by User:Mzpediawiki moved from article --Aronoel (talk) 17:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC))

Prostate cancer in men using testosterone supplementation

This serious problem has been neglected in this article.

Prostate cancer in men using testosterone supplementation. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16006887

CONCLUSIONS: Prostate cancer may become clinically apparent within months to a few years after the initiation of testosterone treatment. Digital rectal examination is particularly important in the detection of these cancers. Physicians prescribing testosterone supplementation and patients receiving it should be cognizant of this risk, and serum PSA testing and digital rectal examination should be performed frequently during treatment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Linda Martens (talk • contribs) 07:08, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Two datum worth adding

• Serum testosterone has been decreasing over time (in the US), and it's not clear why.[1]
• Different races of people have different average serum testosterone levels. It is unclear whether this is genetic or environmental.

Where would be good places to incorporate these facts in the article?--Babank (talk) 22:27, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I'd be curious to see a citation for the second datum. Leadwind (talk) 13:24, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Recent unsourced additions

I have removed the following text from the article mainly since it is unsourced. In addition, much of the material strays from the main topic of this article, testosterone. Perhaps a condensed version of the text that focuses on testosterone and that is supported by reliable sources could be re-added. Boghog (talk) 09:14, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Text

However, the nature of the relationships and forms of love in which these hormonal changes occured is an important question. Oxytocin, a hormone that plays a large role in female bonding, requires the increase in receptor density created by the female sex hormones estrogen and progesterone to effect the brain. Testosterone has been shown to decrease the number of oxytocin receptors in the brain and oxytocin has been shown to decrease testosterone levels itself. It stands to reason that higher levels of oxytocin, like those present in a woman in a commited relationship, would result in, and require, decreased levels of testosterone. Endorphins, another hormone involved in attachment in women, are also regulated by estrogen, as estrogen increases the number of opioid receptors in the brain, while testosterone has no such effect. In men, love and attachment are triggered primarily by vasopressin, a hormone that maintains many male behavioral traits, which requires the increase in receptor density for it created by testosterone (with no such effect triggered by estrogen) to effect the brain. Additionally, the testosterone released in semen is unlikely to be of high enough quantity to trigger these hormonal changes by itself, oxytocin levels increase and testosterone levels drop after orgasm in women, and the male refractory period, during which oxytocin levels are elevated, does not persist long enough to trigger the observed hormonal changes by itself in men, especially considering that a man's vasopressin levels drop after ejaculation and return to normal after the end of the refractory period, causing a return of male, vasopressin-driven feelings of desire and affection. Therefore, it seems highly unlikely that a relationship would trigger a hormonal androgynization of this nature unless the nature of the relationship was heavily or partially biased in the direction of a reversal of gender roles. As such, the real implications of these studies are unclear, given that these hormonal shifts can't be completely automatic and independent of other factors like relationship dynamic. Increases the density of the peptide hormone vasopressin (also known as anti-diuretic hormone or ADH)'s receptors in the brain. Vasopressin has been implicated in aggression and social dominance, which may be the indirect mechanism by which testosterone increases aggression. Vasopressin is very similar in chemical structure to oxytocin, and, like oxytocin, has been implicated in bonding in romantic and familial relationships. In particular, it has been shown to cause aggression towards rival males and protective behavior towards women and offspring. Vasopressin has also been shown to increase generosity and altruism in the dictator game. Vasopressin has been shown to be a major component present in male arousal and an intensifying factor in male climax, but it has been shown to inhibit sexual receptivity in women. Vasopressin increases in response to drugs like methamphetamine, cocaine, and LSD, so it may also play a role in addiction. This particular effect of testosterone has complicated implications, as testosterone has been shown to increase promiscuity and selfishness, while vasopressin, a hormone made more potent by testosterone, appears to promote monogamy and altruism. This creates a potential for a separate, masculine model of caring behavior and monogamy that is not mediated by feminine hormones like oxytocin. However, this would hypothetically depend somewhat on the man's relationship with the mother and his status in the household, given the effect of status on testosterone levels. A more traditional status as head of household may not trigger the same hormonal change, especially considering that the effect of the primary hormone implicated in male monogamy and familial responsibility, vasopressin, is dependent on high levels of testosterone. Testosterone, then, likely only decreases if a male assumes a feminine role, in which his bond with his wife and family would probably be more driven by oxytocin, which requires low testosterone.

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Changes I made, What must have backup / validation of source, Additions needed, Wiki Article Cross-refs I deem lacking

I came to Testosterone:Article after reading Dihydrotestosterone:Article.
As with all Wiki pages, I try to ask myself a common sense question applicable to all encyclopedic information:
"What kind of person will most likely navigate to (any particular Article) and what does s/he most likely want or need to learn?"
I include "need", because there are cases in which a person taking the time to study some entry, might damned well better know some certain fact about it if s/he's going to explore it further. Is this concern for others' safety, etc, nannyism? Perhaps, but I hope not overly.
I offer an example: If someone makes the effort to navigate to the Wiki Article Everclear, it can do no harm yet save lives to briefly inform about the manufacturer's own statement that it should never be consumed neat (undiluted), due to the ease of inadvertent alcohol poisoning causing one to pass out and die before the party-goer ever got a chance to learn what happened.

Testosterone is of great public interest now (2012). Three main reasons:

1. Day and night T.V. commercials pushing Androgel and other transdermal gels for boosting men's testosterone levels. Classic American squeamishness about explicit and graphic T.V. talk of a man's sexual activity and performance (or not) has been pre-softened by E.D. ads for Viagra, Cialis et al.
2. A huge swell of male baby boomers and younger men fearing and/or having flagging T levels are all ears to Big Pharma's siren call to better --well everything, including youthfulness and pleasure, if they buy and apply their (exorbitantly expensive but cheap to manufacture) prescription TRT gels.
3. The advent of improved transdermal drug delivery gels and cremes allowing far more palatable, convenient and steady administration of certain medications formerly mainly given by injection.

IMHO there clearly ought to be cross-referencing between these two pages, since in humans at least, these two androgens are so closely related, the body converting a certain percentage of T into the 3x more potent DHT which it also uses and, unlike T, cannot be aromatized. Will continue later.. page already open two days.. Mykstor (talk) 05:39, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Dihydrotestosterone is mentioned (and wiki linked) in the metabolism and mechanism of action sections of this article. Boghog (talk) 08:28, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Citation re

I removed the following claim from the "Prenatal" section, since the book itself offers no evidence. The pages containing the note to this paragraph are omitted from Google Books. Does someone have access to the book and can look up the reference there? 87.79.92.34 (talk) 19:49, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

This period affects the femininization or masculinization of the fetus and can be a better predictor of feminine or mascular behaviours such as sex typed behaviour than an adult's own levels. A mother's testosterone level during pregnancy is correlated with her daughter's sex-typical behavior as an adult, and the correlation is even stronger than with the daughter's own adult testosterone level.

Just adding that the text above is about the second trimester (Prenatal). And I hope it's okay that I moved the text one step so it is readable. Plus added a reflist. Lova Falk talk 07:07, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

I can see the source on google books, and the text above is supported by the source. So I'll move the text back in. Lova Falk talk 07:12, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for putting that material back in. It's surprising and interesting. Leadwind (talk) 13:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Before vs. prior to

Dear Graham87, although I believe that you have made copyedits with a good intention, I think that you have some confusion about the application of before and prior to. I saw your edit that you have changed ..6 months prior to the study to ..6 months before the study. But I think it should be ..6 months before the study was carried out. I think the expanation on this page and this page would clarify things for you. I leave it to you to modify the terminology that you used in the article. Diptanshu^Talk 17:50, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

This page says that "prior to" should almost never be used, and cites references. I've copyedited the passage in question; adding a year fixes the issue entirely – the study almost certainly could not have been done in 2003 because it was submitted so early in the year. This article relies far too much on case studies rather than meta-analyses or systematic reviews. Graham87 02:40, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

WiseGeek on Testosterone

Here's a basic online article on testosterone: What is Testosterone. Our article should cover the basics as well as this article does. Our lead, in particular, could be a little more informative, and I think our leading definition should be "Testosterone is a principal male sex hormone" because that's its claim to fame. Leadwind (talk) 13:26, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Additional Source

So, I'm not entirely sure how to properly cite sources (sorry, new to editing here) and I'm not sure whether it is needed or not, but there is a page which mentions hormone treatment for transgender patients, and there is a sentence within it that says explicitly that testosterone is used for trans men - "a trans man (female becoming a male) will take testosterone" - and also there is reference to hormone blockers being used in children (although that is less relevant to the article). Here is the link, anyway; if it is useful, could someone add it in as a source/tell me how best to do so? http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Treatment.aspx Oneboikyle (talk) 02:03, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi Oneboikyle! Thank you for your comment, and I added your source. Lova Falk talk 07:13, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

 Done

Error found

Error found The following statement does not accurately describe what the study investigated. Someone with a log-in please correct or delete this. "A 2002 study found that testosterone increased in heterosexual men who had engaged in sexual activity in the past six months after brief conversations with women. The increase in T levels was associated with the intensity of "courtship" behaviours that the men exhibited.[52]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.114.165.83 (talk) 15:52, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi 98.114.165.83 and thank you for telling us. I now changed the text. Lova Falk talk 07:07, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

 Fixed

adverse effects section--should it be moved inside medical uses section?

A few weeks ago, "Adverse effects" APPEARED like it was written in regard to "Recreational use" since it was directly below Recreational Use section, and the headings were about the same size, and, the first sentences were very general and sanguine even though the citations for those sentences were only for males in therapy! I don't know if that confusion was intentional. In any case, shouldn't the adverse effects section be put up inside the medical uses section? After all, I think all the citations in "Adverse effects" so far are in regard to therapeutic(medical) use. --Richard Peterson70.57.88.158 (talk) 07:36, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Some citations for recreational use would be good. We do not typically bit adverse effects in medical uses per WP:MEDMOS Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:01, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Ok, but it seems seriously confusing the way the sections are set up right now, and it's not an article we should be languid about. How about we switch Adverse effects to become section 3 and recreational use to become section 4? thanks.65.130.253.244 (talk) 02:14, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Adverse effects section--copy of an exchange from a wikipedia editor's talk page

Because I think the Adverse Effects section still has serious problems that could mislead and lead readers to harm, I have copied the following exchange from my talk page to the discussion page of testosterone, so we can all discuss it.

References Please use high quality references per WP:MEDRS such as review articles or major textbooks. Note that review articles are NOT the same as peer reviewed articles. A good place to find medical sources is TRIP database Thanks.

Doc James

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

reply:

I will post both here and the same copy on your page...hi Doc James, thanks for your help on testosterone article. Please forgive-this reply will be written hastily--but i feel

that the types of information on TRIP:database are not for some purposes as good as that from the new york times(nyt), the popular press, which as you know, my edits in question were taken from, because: review articles require highly specialized training to interpret, and we wikipedians, whether we have that training or not, are requested not to make interpretations. in fact the type of comments that dr. anawalt made are likely not to be made in a review article on medline, but they are notable and of use. Particularly, the edits i made came from an article by a reporter(Roni Rabin) specializing in medical news, and were direct quotes. Now, direct quotes published in the nyt are highly reliable, as quotes, whether or not the quoted information is correct. One reason for this is the attention paid to the nyt as "newspaper of record" in the usa-faulty quotes are quickly spotted. So if reliability of quotation was your concern, that shouldn't be, at least in my opinion. Another thing, is as "newspaper of record", nyt is presumed to contact respected medical authorities, or when not, identify them as "alternative opinions, blahblahblah". Furthermore the authorities that were contacted, such as Dr. Anawalt, are then able to give general estimates of the testosterone situation in north america, that i would guess are unlikely to be found in TRIP:database, at least without the use of interpetation, using our own knowledge, of us as wikipedia editors, which is, I think, against wikipedia policy. When you questioned reliability, was it because you couldn't be certain that Dr. Anwalt was a respected authority, or that perhaps that what he said was opinion? But after looking at anawalts citaions on TRIP:database itself, (and straqightforwardly that he was in nyt) can't we say he should be given approximately the same authority as that of a citattion from TRIP? And if it's because it's just Anwalt's opinion , shouldn't the opinion of a respected authority, quoted in a major newspaper, be given some representation in a wikipedia article? [Of course, still another point is conflict of interest: the scuttlebut reported in the socalled(by WP:medrs) "popular press", that medical articles in medical journals frequently have conflict of interest--articles, maybe review articles also? may even be researched and written by pharmaceutical companies and signed by physicians, even without seeing the raw data.]

But here, for example, this is a previous version of "Adverse effects" section, from not long ago, at least nominally written with information from cited review articles: <<<<Whether or not testosterone causes important adverse effects is unclear.[98] In light of the above there is tentative evidence that it does not affect the risk of death, prostate cancer or cardiovascular disease.[98][99] It does increase hemoglobin levels and decrease HDL cholesterol levels but it is not clear if these changes are meaningful.[98] Testosterone in the presence of a slow-growing cancer is assumed to increase its growth rate. However the association between testosterone supplementation and the development of prostate cancer is unproven.[100] Nevertheless physicians are cautioned about the cancer risk associated with testosterone supplementation.[101]

Fluoxymesterone and methyltestosterone are synthetic derivatives of testosterone. Methyltestosterone and fluoxymesterone are no longer prescribed by physicians, given their poor safety record.

Ethnic groups have different rates of prostate cancer.[102] Differences in sex hormones including testosterone have been suggested as an explanation for these differences.[102] This apparent paradox can be resolved by noting that prostate cancer is very common. In autopsies, 80% of 80-year-old men have prostate cancer.[103]>>>>

This version above does not give understandable indication of what may be important adverse effects to the average reader like me. -It's good to mention the stuff about HDL etc, interpreted or not, but it means little to an important part of wikipedia readership. Also what interpretation is given seems to have been given by a wikipedia editor: "In the light of the above..."--wikipedia editors are asked NOT to put 2 and 2 together, NOT to make deductions, NOT to figure more out in the light of something. So it's good to have Anwalt's reliable "opinion" here from nyt on general considerations-it provides what we wikipedia editors shouldn't provide. Also, given the cautious nature of what Anwalt's statements, it can provide a safety anchor to future versions of this section, if for example you are hit by a truck or too busy to watch it. (Like, in this old version--suppose you[I think it was you] hadn't been around to find the citation enabling a warning of contraindication during pregnancy that you inserted later on:--Anwalt's cautious statements could have still have made women athletes foreseeing pregnancy to be rightfully more cautious.)I won't delve into the lack of mention that this was research on males in therapy, and the utter lack of mention that the citations were only research on males, not females, is a form of inadvertent interpretation by wikipedia editors.--we need general assessments and opinions from experts like Dr.Anwalt! Well, Doc James, thanks for your time, hard work, and skills, and i hope we can work this out.--Richard Peterson65.130.253.244 (talk) 01:12, 16 February 2014 (UTC)