Talk:Easter

Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2014

I find:

"The date of Easter therefore varies between 22 March and 25 April."

Please add "inclusive" at the end of that sentence, because Easter can fall on March 22 and on April 25. (It was March 22 in 1818 but that won't happen again until 2285. It was April 25 in 1943 and will be on that day again in 2038. Check list of Easter dates.)

128.63.16.20 (talk) 20:30, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Question: How about: "The date of Easter can be on any date from 22 March until 25 April."? — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(t • e • c)} 20:47, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

 Done - the phrase in the Date section was already "between 22 March and 25 April inclusive", which initially confused me - it is just the lead that needed altering and it seems sensible to use the same phraseology. Arjayay (talk) 14:25, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Christian dogmatics - vs. a full scholarly review of other-cultural roots of Easter: Eostre, Ishtar, Eos/Dawn, Vernal Equinox

As a Culture Studies PhD with some particular interests in this area, I am offended greatly by this article. Which seems clearly written by a religious dogmatist.

This article clearly to be sure announces its aim: this is an account it tells us, of the "Christian" celebration. But clearly it has left out dozens of other-cultural predecessors, the larger anthropological/mythic context, and them dozens of historical traditions that lead up to this holiday.

This is NOT a scholarly article; it is an exercise in church dogmatics, that asserts no other origin for this typical spring celebration than God, or Jahweh.

We need a few ANE historians and cultural anthropologists, to fill this account out. By looking at results from many other cultures in this area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.111.98.158 (talk) 13:59, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Seriously. This article is the biggest load of bull I've seen here, and I remember the Ellen White wars. Good luck. These dogmatists will give you hell before they give you neutral tone. --75.185.43.139 (talk) 23:22, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

La-dee-da. If you're such an awe-inspiring scholar, FIX IT and cite things with appropriate sources. Wikipedia is designed to permit this instead of only allowing empty, pointless whining.Dogface (talk) 20:33, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

So make an article about it's predecessors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.1.124.211 (talk) 00:43, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

The point being made is sound - SOMEONE with the appropriate knowledge and time needs to rewrite this pretty awful and biased article. Me, I'm just here because it's Easter.. ;-) The most blatant clue to the bias is in the first sentence: "Easter"... "is a festival and holiday commemorating the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead", when clearly the very word "Easter" refers to a pre-Christian festival (as explained under etymology), and most of the things that most people in the English speaking world associate with Easter (eggs, bunnies etc), have far more to do with a fertility festival than they do with the Christian one.Spiridens (talk) 11:34, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Made some changes yesterday that were immediately reverted by a Christian loony. This is the problem with wikipedia - it will always have an undeclared agenda set by 1) well-organised special interest groups (such as religions) 2) the dominant cultural assumptions of the west, particularly the United States where most users are based. I give up on it, it's a joke. Perhaps someone else has time to fight the god squad here and create a decent non-biased article about Easter. I have better things to do.Spiridens (talk) 08:14, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, some of the Christians here don't behave in a very Christian way. I'm not sure what they feel their mission is. Lying for Jesus? Have a look at Systemic bias, and see if that helps lead you (and Wikipedia) on a healing path. HiLo48 (talk) 08:54, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Ronald Hutton & Hans Hillerbrand

Hello folks. There's been an exchange between myself and another user on the article space regarding citing Ronald Hutton's Stations of the Sun and Hans Hillerbrand's Encyclopedia Brittanica article as minority views against the generally accepted etymology. The problem is primarily this; neither Hutton nor Hillerbrand have the historical linguistics background necessary make a call like this and should not be cited when discussing this etymology. The Encyclopedia Brittanica article is also problematic beyond this. Right now, "generally accepted" is wording that implies that there is some dissent, but that this is the majority view. Isn't that enough for a summary? :bloodofox: (talk) 19:51, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Unless you are saying this minority view doesn't exist, the objection is invalid. The material I restored was changed to specifically say it was a minority view, and to attribute it to the scholar who reported it. This is a comprehensive encyclopedia. If there's a better source for the view, suggest and add it, rather than simply deleting an attributed view. μηδείς (talk) 20:56, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Please read WP:UNDUE. Here we're essentially giving a minority position equal footing to the majority. And these are scholars, sure, but they're not linguists, and this section is about an etymology. It's an inappropriate citation, especially the Brittania source. The section is a summary where we don't need to go into any real depth. All of this is handled far more extensively at Ēostre. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:32, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

I'd be reluctant to dismiss Hutton's generally solid historical work, just because he isn't a specialist in etymology. Although I'm not convinced by his discussion of Easter, he does present a serious minority view which should be restored. SteveMcCluskey (talk) 13:03, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

The issue isn't that "he isn't a specialist in etymology", the issue is that he doesn't seem to have a historical linguistics background. He's therefore a poor source for historical linguistics, which is a major problem. Historical linguistics, as a field of linguistics, is not something that can be approached simply with a background in history. He's also generally a poor source regarding Germanic paganism, and certainly a poor source when it comes to Indo-European studies. Hutton is still mentioned here, but there's really no reason for it. :bloodofox: (talk) 02:58, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Having again looked over the cited section of Hutton's Stations of the Sun, it's exactly as I recall it being. We can do better than that. The section we have right now is well referenced to authorities on the topic. Hutton appeared at the time to be unaware of some key evidence on the matter, such as the matronae Austriahenea and important comparative stuff. I've gone ahead and removed it on these grounds.There's no reason to give equal footing to Hutton's overview. If people want more information, they can always go to Ēostre. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:41, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Where's Secular Easter?

Like Christmas, and especially in America, Easter can be quite secular. Many families celebrate Easter with a gift basket of candy and an Easter egg hunt, totally devoid of mention of anything Christian. We really need a section on this. Right now the article has nothing whatsoever on it. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:48, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

So the last paragraph of the lede is "nothing"? There was a section on "secular" Easter customs a couple of years back, but discussions and multiple to and fro edits caused the decision to split it to a separate article at which point I added a hatnote pointing to the new article. I see the hatnote has been generalised since then. Would a second hatnote for Easter customs work? Beeswaxcandle (talk) 05:14, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

"Additional customs that have become associated with Easter and are observed by both Christians and some non-Christians include egg hunting, the Easter Bunny, and Easter parades." is next to nothing. Essentially, in its current state—whether intentionally or not—the current article whitewashes the secular element of the holiday out in favor of a purely Christian article, which is not at all the reality of the situation nowadays. In fact, in many mainstream cases, a Christian element is completely missing but it's still very much Easter. I think the article needs a sizable section discussing what Easter is in parts of the west rather than treating the article with a purely Christian lens. :bloodofox: (talk) 06:59, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

I tend to agree with bloodofox. In most western nations, Easter is MORE a secular holiday period than a religious one. To have our primary article concentrate on the religious aspects is not delivering an accurate picture of Easter. HiLo48 (talk) 07:06, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Agreed with others here that the secular element of Easter needs to be expanded... the Christmas article does a pretty good job of addressing that holiday's situation, but I'd certainly concede that Christmas is much more popular amongst secular people and is more widespread into non-western non-Christian societies as such than Easter. I'll do a hunt (pun intended?) for some sources about secular celebration and try to incorporate some sourced changes into the intro and/or body, but the hard part with Easter is that the secular elements of celebration are not as widespread as those of Christmas, AFAIK, and we need the article to reflect Easter as a worldwide celebration without being geographically biased. If I make any significant edits that are disagreed with, please respond here and we can discuss further. If anyone else here wants to dedicate themselves to expanding this as well, particularly before Easter arrives, it'd be a good project to undertake. Crumpled Fire (talk) 14:20, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 March 2014

This page needs to be edited because it contains information which is completely false. Easter is NOT a Christian festival and holiday celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ on the third day after his crucifixion at Calvary as described in the New Testament. The Christian festival and holiday celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ on the third day after his crucifixion at Calvary as described in the New Testament is called the Resurrection celebration or the anniversary of the Resurrection. It has nothing to do with Easter, which is a pagan holiday celebrating and worshipping the pagan Teutonic goddess Eostre, the Anglo-Saxon goddess of springtime, fertility, and motherhood. This pagan celebration has as its fertility symbol a hare in Europe and a bunny rabbit in North America, because of their rapid fertility rate, symbolized by the Easter egg. However, this is also a wrong symbol to associate together with a hare or a rabbit because they do not lay eggs. They are viviporous (like humans) not oviporous. The females have eggs, but they carry them inside their bodies full term until their water breaks and then the offspring emerges. So hares and bunny rabbits do not lay eggs! What is said in this article about the Christian festival and holiday celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ on the third day after his crucifixion at Calvary should be listed under another article entitled "Resurrection celebration" or "anniversary celebration of the resurrection". Somebody who was very confused about these two completely separate events and festivals has mixed them together as though they were one festival or holiday. They are instead two completely separate festivals or holidays with completely separate origins and are celebrated by different groups of people. Easter is a pagan celebration which is observed by pagans and those who hold to ancient and classical mythology of polytheism. Christians, on the other hand, do not celebrate nor worship pagan idols nor the gods or goddesses of mythological polytheism. Instead, they celebrate and worship the risen Savior and Lord Jesus Christ, whose resurrection is celebrated annually on the anniversary of it in the spring. These two fetivals and holidays should not be confused as they have in this article. Kerryyarbrough (talk) 00:30, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(t • e • c)} 01:20, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

There are ample sources which describe Easter as a Christian holiday. Like Christmas, it now has heavily secular elements. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 01:22, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Starting a FAQ

Each year around this time we get the same questions regarding the etymology, origins and history of Easter, and many of us spent time hunting down previous discussions in the archives to point people to. I've added a FAQ template, and will be filling it with some of the headers I've proposed in the past, including the four mentioned in [1] as well as "This article doesn't match what I read on ReligiousTolerance.org". -Ben (talk) 13:53, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Looks like I'm nearly incapable of figuring out the FAQ template syntax. Any help would be appreciated. -Ben (talk) 14:13, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

You're not alone. {{FAQ row}} is either broken or needlessly convoluted, so I just bypassed it. No such user (talk) 06:52, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Paul's quote source

The article is protected, therefore could somebody please add the source to Paul's quote from the etymology secion ("Christ our Pascha has been sacrificed for us"). It's from 1 Cor. 5:6-8. The wording is different in different translations, people may want to check it out. Also, is there a consensus on Wikipedia which translation should be used? 37.144.73.59 (talk) 08:55, 13 April 2014 (UTC), Alexander

I have edited the section in view of your observations. There is no consensus about which Bible version to use in Wikipedia, nor is there any need for it. If a bibleverse link is given to any English version of a verse, you get to a page on which there is a link to "all English translations" included in BibleGateway. Esoglou (talk) 14:04, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 April 2014

There is no reliable source quoted for the Ishtar origin of the word Easter. There's only a link to http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract1.html. Please remove that or produce a reputable quote. Deroude (talk) 12:01, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

:Done -Ben (talk) 12:32, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

marking template as done by Ben Cannolis (talk) 13:17, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Easter - History

I can't believe that, with all the information available, some people are still attempting to downplay or even deny the obvious Jewish and pre-Christian ('pagan') roots of the European celebration of Easter. It didn't spring from the earth fully formed in AD 50 and maintain that form unchanged until today, yet that is definitely the tone of some people's writing. I have looked through a number of Easter-related Wikipedia pages, and it seems to me that this is a problem common to most of them. Heavenlyblue (talk) 23:33, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

There are definitely some Christians here who cannot handle the possibility that anything associated with their god is wrong, and will fight in very un-Christians ways against any such suggestions, but there are also some very reasonable Christian editors, who will discuss rationally. We are also bound by Wikipedia rules, whereby well-sourced material must be considered. So don't give up. Keep it civil, and well-sourced. HiLo48 (talk) 23:42, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

The Easter festival obviously did not spring from the earth fully formed in AD 50, but within a few decades it developed from the Jewish Passover festival (whatever that may have developed from, and this is a matter of conjecture) into something with a completely changed focus and not at all identical with the Jewish Passover. It does not seem to have developed from any "pagan" festival. Esoglou (talk) 12:46, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Really Obvious that Easter has Pagan roots, along with a lot of other Christian holidays. The name its self comes from a Eostre, a fertility Goddess. The Egg is a symbol of fertility, so is the Easter bunny. In a lot of areas if the Christians could not stop the Pagans from celebrating their holiday they incorporated those holidays into their own. Renaming a tradition Christian does not make it so. DarkMystik1 (talk) 19:51, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that those who in the second century were celebrating the feast (and disputing whether to hold it on the same date as the Jewish feast or on the following Sunday) were influenced by the fact that, centuries later, some Germanic tribes would call it by a name that some would link to a goddess, or that they were influenced by the fact that, again centuries later, people would associate eggs and bunnies with it. But it seems that others, God bless them, do hold that idea or something like it. Esoglou (talk) 07:48, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

The Eostre article claims that Bede is the first written recording of the word 600 years after the first written mention of Pascha. The pagan roots of Christmas, in stark contrast, have substantial support for a pagan origin. I would be very much interested in a Latin source that describes pagan spring festivals before the 8th century that would indicate some sort of connection. The people who argue for a pagan origin of Easter usually cite modern sources for the idea, but where did this idea come from? Is there any indication before Bede that makes this theory more than speculation? 69.116.158.191 (talk) 13:15, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

I have seen television series that link the timing of Easter to pre-Christian change of season, start of harvest season, and Spring equinox celebrations. I find it odd that this article makes no mention of that. It can't be that hard to source? Wikipedia should represent a neutral point of view (NPOV): "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." dissolve^talk 15:14, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

The etymology of Pascha

This is obviously Aramaic, not Hebrew. Why does Wikipedia in various languages stubbornly say that it is Hebrew? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omegsi1 (talk • contribs) 14:40, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Try the wiktionary[2]. It shows the progression from Hebrew to Aramaic to Greek and finally to Latin. I suppose you could insert the Aramaic between the Greek and Hebrew, but the word isn't Aramaic in origin. 69.116.158.191 (talk) 15:07, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps Omedgsi1 was objecting to the expression "through Aramaic from Hebrew", rather than "from Aramaic", which is in fact what it the Greek word was derived from directly. It is derived from Hebrew only if we rightly or wrongly suppose that the Aramaic word was derived from the Hebrew word and was not a parallel development. I think there is no harm in responding to the complaint by rewording as I have now done. Esoglou (talk) 15:44, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

The word is plainly Aramaic, and unless I missed something, whatever Wiktionary has, Wikipedia in various languages says that it is Hebrew. Of course, this is a detail, and of course the Aramaic word may have been a calque on the Hebrew, but it plainly is not Hebrew. The source moreover that is repeatedly cited in Wikipedia for it being Hebrew is a survey of European history by a well-known historian (though one much criticized precisely for numerous errors of detail, and not any respectable source on Semitic languages and etymology. In short, this is a minor but I submit striking example of how Wikipedia recycles published errors. The word anyway is Aramaic, and I hope no one disputes this. It may be that its usage was influenced by Hebrew. But it wears its Aramaic origin on its face: it is NOT a Hebrew loanword in Aramaic, which is what "through Aramaic from Hebrew" would tend to suggest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.247.243.1 (talk) 16:42, 21 April 2014 (UTC) So I just sits and waits to see if anyone authorized to edit this page--since of course I am not--will ever change this error. Just saying...