Talk:John Stossel

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Bet with T. Boone Pickens

I really think this article should include the results of Stossel's legendary bet with oilman T. Boone Pickens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ALfilH4RFs&feature=related JettaMann (talk) 20:02, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

I would also like to include this, provided that there are outside sources that discuss this information. 129.120.176.206 (talk) 22:05, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Edited article John Stossel

I edited the article John Stossel by updating four introductory paragraphs of the article, primarily current resume information, to reflect current positions at Fox Business Channel and Fox News Channel after departing ABC News. I also added outside link to reference Stossel's blog.

--ScottSchaefer (talk) 12:59, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

ScottSchaefer (talk • contribs)

Suggest removal of previously existing section

This talk page contained a section which made reference to inclusion of information regarding John Stossel and Boone Pickens and an alleged bet between them. The section included a link to a YouTube video which does not exist. Further, the YouTube user who published the video was deleted by YouTube for multiple copyright infringements.

--ScottSchaefer (talk) 12:56, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

His religious beliefs

I have no idea how to cite this, but I just watched his show and he said that he is an agnostic. I changed his religion from Jewish to Agnostic.

I've done it. Bastin 11:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Watchdog groups

The section entitled "watchdog groups" highlights the accusation by the leftist FAIR.org web site that, contrary to Stossel's Oct., 1999 assertion that Parkinson's kills more people than HIV/AIDS, the reverse is true. FAIR is quoted as saying:

"In fact, AIDS killed more than 16,000 people in the United States in 1999," whereas Parkinson's averaged "a death toll in the United States of less than 4,000 per year."

There are several problems with that. One is that FAIR.org and MMfA are not reliable sources. Another is that the FAIR.org accusation is allowed to stand unrebutted, which strongly suggests that it is true, and gives a heavy POV imbalance to the section. Another is that the statistics which FAIR gives are contradicted by the CDC (which is a reliable source).

I don't know whether we should leave the FAIR.org accusation in the article or not, so I left it there. However, I added the actual CDC statistics for the United States, with references to the documents on the cdc.gov web site which contain the figures. The CDC says:

In 1999 HIV/AIDS killed 14,802 Americans, compared to 14,593 killed by Parkinson's.[1]

In 2000 HIV/AIDS killed 14,478 Americans, compared to 15,682 killed by Parkinson's.[2]

Clearly, FAIR.org was way, way off the mark. But was Stossel right or wrong?

That's a closer call. The U.S. mortality numbers were very similar for the two diseases, with HIV/AIDS deaths higher in 1999 but Parkinson's higher in 2000. Since Stossel used the present tense ("Parkinson's kills more people") the question is, which disease was killing people at the higher rate when the program aired, on Oct. 11, 1999?

A simple linear interpolation to estimate the daily death rates from each disease gives the most likely answer. (Imagine a graph, with lines drawn for the two diseases' death rates, from the middle of 1999 to the middle of 2000; the question is, which line is higher at the date Oct. 11, 1999?)

10/11/1999 was 102 days after the mid-point of 1999, so here're the linear interpolation calculations:

Parkinson's interpolated daily death rate 10/11/1999: ((102 / 365) * 15682 + (((365-102)/365) * 14593)) / 365 = 40.815

HIV/AIDS interpolated daily death rate 10/11/1999: ((102 / 365) * 14478 + (((365-102)/365) * 14802)) / 365 = 40.305

The two numbers are close, but the daily death rate from Parkinson's was 1.0% higher than from HIV/AIDS. So, if we trust the CDC's statistics, we have to conclude that Stossel's claim was most likely correct for the United States, when the program aired. So this is what I added to the article:

Interpolating the CDC figures suggests that by the date the program aired, Stossel's assertion was (barely) true.

However, though FAIR.org assumed (probably correctly) that Stossel was talking about death rates in the USA, Stossel actually didn't say that. If he was talking about worldwide death rates, then he was very wrong. HIV/AIDS kills far more people, worldwide, than Parkinson's does. So, for balance & clarity, I also added this to the article:

(However, worldwide HIV/AIDS deaths were far higher than Parkinson's deaths.)

Does everyone agree that this is a good, balanced, factual treatment of the argument between Stossel and FAIR.org? NCdave (talk) 07:49, 28 January 2012 (UTC) I think what you stated seems good although I'd be interested in the 1998 numbers since those would be the most recent complete numbers available to Stossel and maybe even further back to see if 1999 was some sort of anomaly. Also considering how wrong the fair numbers were it seems unreasonable for their criticism to be mentioned at all especially considering the biased nature of the organization and their grossly inaccurate numbers. Drewder (talk) 02:40, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

This is a year old so I don't think it is worth spending time researching, that said Fair.org is certainly not a reliable source. Based on my experience I would guess that if someone said something about 1999 that the data would likely 2-3 years old at the time. The right thing to do is research Stossel actual comment and see where he got his numbers from. Regardless any info from "Fair.org" is not worth sharing.Mantion (talk) 05:01, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Inconsistency

Does this interview provide a noteworthy enough insight into Stossel's ethics and reasoning skills to include in the article? EllenCT (talk) 05:27, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

The WP:RS for his remarks is the Fox interview. C&L simply wants to put in its own opinion, but does not qualify as RS in this regard. Don't use. – S. Rich (talk) 14:35, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

To what opinion of C&L do you refer beyond that stated by Stossel and his Fox interviewers during the interview? This is, in my opinion, an exemplary insight into how the libertarian rich refuse to practice what they demand of others. How would failing to include this perspective improve the article? EllenCT (talk) 10:01, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Note, I clarified my statement to say that Crooks & Liars does not qualify as RS. What Stossel says in the Fox interview is fine because it explains his views. But seeking to describe him as a crook or liar is inappropriate. Edits which combine his political views with his daily life (or whatever) is WP:OR, and do not explain his reasoning skills or ethics. Moreover, WP is not to be used as a WP:SOAPBOX. – S. Rich (talk) 14:24, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Again, is there any reason that omitting Stossel's own statements about accepting a multi-million dollar FEMA bailout while wanting to abolish it or otherwise make such bailouts unavailable to others would improve the article? Which is worse, soapboxing or whitewashing? EllenCT (talk) 16:18, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Soapboxing, particularly in WP:BLPs. – S. Rich (talk) 16:31, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I really don't think it can be said with such certainty that looking at someone's stated views, as well as their daily life, "do[es] not explain his reasoning skills or ethics" - 101.169.127.227 (talk) 12:10, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Fairtax

the article currently cites a 2006 interview for the support of a fairtax. i suggest we remove it as a more recent interview appears to contradict such. perhaps we could say he is for lower and much simpler taxes instead? [3] There's always danger in proposing a replacement for the income tax: We could end up with two taxes. I wouldn't put it past our greedy Congress to promise that a national sales tax — or worse, a value-added tax — would replace the income tax then, once the new taxes are in place, to say that the need for revenue is so great that they must retain the income tax, too. Darkstar1st (talk) 07:47, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

He has expressed an open-mindedness to different solutions to the issue of taxes, including both a Flat Tax (like the one Hong Kong has, as he pointed out in his 1999 special, Is America #1?), and a Fair Tax, as guests have suggested on his show. Overall, he thinks taxes should be lower. I've added both your information and cite and the flat tax info from that special to the passage. Nightscream (talk) 11:50, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Dead Link/potential POV content in lede

I edited a dead link's content, partially because there was no way to verify it, and partially because it seemed a questionable inclusion to begin with. This was reverted without a note being added indicating the link was broken (thank you for posting an explanation on my Talk page. I do think we still need to address the original issue though.) The content in question is:

"ABC is reported to believe "his reporting goes against the grain of the established media and offers the network something fresh and different...[but] makes him a target of the groups he offends."[6]"

The wording itself is somewhat odd..."ABC is reported to believe.." seems an odd way to cite an ABC article, or to describe ABC's reaction. ABC is a corporate entity...it's somewhat awkward to say it "believes" something. The elipsis and general shading of the quote make me wonder whether there is a bit of (again, assumed unintentional) pick-and-choosing going on. Regardless, I'm not sure that a specific quote, in odd context, that seems to imply a very favorable statement on Mr. Stossel, belongs in the lede to begin with. I'd suggest it's superflous to the summary nature of the lede, and lacks citation. I don't think we need to find a citation because the better option would be to simply remove it. It doesn't add anything to the lede.AT worst, why not replace it with a more generic summary statement, and add some citations?76.238.186.96 (talk) 02:20, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

This comment has nothing to do with my opinions on the appropriateness of using the quote. But it is fully cited and there are no grounds for removing it on that basis. A broken link does not invalidate a citation. The title, date, and name of the newspaper are more than sufficient for both citation and verification purposes. Gamaliel (talk) 03:00, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Womens' health

"John Stossel thinks women should pay more for health insurance because “women go to the doctor much more often than men,” possibly because “they’re hypochondriacs,” the Fox Business host posits."

• Fox News: Women should be charged more for insurance because they are women! salon.com. 84.152.39.26 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:41, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

FAIR and MMfA

@Nightscream:, you reverted this edit, but I can't find the FAIR reference in his books in a Google Books search. I may be doing a poor job searching, can you tell me where that cite is? Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:55, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

His books were not the cited source. FAIR was. I merely commented that Stossel mentions their criticism in his books, not that I was citing that as the source.

Page 198 of Gimme a Break mentions their complaints about his 20/20 story on organic food. Nightscream (talk) 18:33, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

My apologies for that confusion. A Google Books search for FAIR or "Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting" or the like doesn't turn that up. Do you know what the text is of it? We should probably keep the criticisms to actually noted ones. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:50, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

It is a noted one: Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting.

As for the text, this is it: "In a headline, a far-left group called Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting distorted my mistake into intentional deceit: 'Stossel Fabricated Data'." Nightscream (talk) 20:43, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

By "noted," I mean "someone noticed the criticism," not just that a noteworthy person said it. Much like we wouldn't put every monologue from a radio or television host in the articles about people or issues, so too we should be careful about things like this, no? Thargor Orlando (talk) 22:16, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

The material is relevant and sourced, and therefore, appropriate for inclusion. It is not a requirement that "someone else" notice the criticism (although that wouldn't hurt), nor is this comparable to "every monologue" from a TV or radio host, since there are only a few notes of criticism in the section. If you want, you could broaden the citations by adding the criticism on Stossel's 20/20 report on organic food, since according to Stossel, he was criticized not only by FAIR, but by CNN, USA Today, the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, the Chicago Tribune, The Nation and The New York Times. If you feel the material is not broadly-enough sourced, then the solution is to add more citations. Not blank it. Nightscream (talk) 03:51, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

I am more than happy to replace the citation with noteworthy criticisms. Are there specific links you're in favor of? Thargor Orlando (talk) 15:59, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. None in particular, as long as they adhere to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Nightscream (talk) 16:16, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree, which is why replacing this is important. Which criticisms on organic food by those outlets you linked are ones you believe meet that threshold? Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:20, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Re "discredited" before "journalist"

Mother Jones and other left-leaning but objective news outlets have documented Stossel's taking funding from libertarian groups to promote such projects as his "Stossel in the Classroom" video series. Stossel has long stood far outside the bounds of what one might consider investigative journalism, regardless of one's politics. Thus Stossel as an "investigative journalist" is quite arguably too POV for Wikipedia. I maintain that "discredited" is not POV but representative of the facts. However, rather than this loaded descriptor, might we change Stossel's central description to "Fox News personality"? That is objectively true and a much fairer and less POV description of who he is at this point in time. {{Johnpdeever (talk) 09:41, 17 November 2014 (UTC)}}

If you have facts supporting the changes you propose, please provide reliable sources to support them. Injecting the term "discredited", as you did, is purely POV on your part. – S. Rich (talk) 18:45, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Given the fact that Stossel has received numerous news-related awards, I think the WP:BURDEN is on other editors who propose to describe him primarily as a "television personality". The consensus version of this article has been and is "consumer reporter, investigative journalist, author and libertarian columnist." Consensus can change, but it is up to other editors to bring the issue to this talk page, discuss, and garner support for the changes. – S. Rich (talk) 03:03, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

The Criticism and Controversy seciton of this page deserves to be updated with more recent material. Regardless of what Stossel did in the past for ABC, what he does these days should not be described as "investigative journalism." Here is a citation for his "reporting" being funded by right-wing donors: [4] Further information as a reference to my fairly obvious description of Stossel as an advocacy pundit or personality, not a journalist, is detailed here: [5] In a recent report, he cites his own brother, Dr. Tom Stossel, "a visiting professor for health care studies at the American Enterprise Institute," who happens to share his views on what ought to be done about the Ebola crisis; is asking one's relatives via your television program about policy options really journalism? Yet another of his "investigations" a year ago involved pretending to be homeless in order to "report" that homeless people are doing just fine and do not deserve charity or other attention from policymakers; such shenanigans are far from reporting. His lack of credibility as a journalist is evident in many other places. [6] Johnpdeever