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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Richfife (talk | contribs) at 19:54, 20 January 2017 (→‎Worth noting?: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Lead

Is a summary of the body of the article. If one wishes to add material to the lead, it ought to be first placed in the body - seems simple. Collect (talk)

Just a quick note that the username of the user who has been adding material to the lead suggests that he is the author of the article he's citing - which is not against the rules, but is reason to be cautious. --Nat Gertler (talk) 03:29, 16 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Re link to "citizenfreak.com", which is the Museum of Canadian Music: We dealt with this before. See Talk:Yank_Barry/Archive_1#The former awards section, at "I have now corresponded with the contact for the museum. He says that what is up for Barry is what one of Barry's associates sent them. As such, any information being there cannot be presumed to be accurate, much less of import. --Nat Gertler (talk) 13:51, 25 April 2014 (UTC)" This article has been heavily fact checked in the past. Check the archives before anything new goes in. Thanks. John Nagle (talk) 20:27, 16 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Former musician"

I am not fully comfortable with the addition of the word "former" to the "musician" description. That he is a former one is unsourced... it doesn't look like that's his business at the moment, but musicianship is not limited to the professionals. Additionally, he does seem to have performed in public within the last few years. --Nat Gertler (talk) 04:19, 17 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's not really unsourced. There are two sources cited for that sentence. One of them calls him a "one-time 'Louie Louie' crooner for The Kingsmen" and makes no other mention of being a musician. The other says he is a "former member of the 1960s Kingsmen band" and that he "has been many things: singer, music producer, ..." Thus, both of those refer to his status as a musician only in the past tense. That second cited source describes his current status only as "businessman". The section of the article that discusses his musical career ends 37 years ago in 1979 (and the 1979 work was as a producer, not as a musician – it looks like the last work mentioned that is about being a performing musician and is reliably sourced is for his touring with a band that ended in 1970). Several other sources refer to his status as a musician in the past tense as well. Some of them just refer to him as a businessman and do not mention anything about him having ever been a musician at all. (The infobox already said "former musician" before that change.) —BarrelProof (talk) 05:08, 17 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That he is no longer part of The Kingsmen does not make him a former musician; Beyonce is a former member of Destiny's Child, that doesn't mean she's a former musician. And listing thing that a person has been does not mean they are no longer all the things on the list; over the years, I've been a student, a programmer, a writer, a publisher, a husband, and a father. Some of those things I still am, some I am not. --Nat Gertler (talk) 05:27, 17 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt that any random scanning of sources that discuss Beyoncé would find her status as a music performer described only in the past tense, but if your judgment differs from mine, I respect that. I don't plan to get into an edit war with you over it. —BarrelProof (talk) 06:32, 17 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Give the our current lead photograph is of him singing, and appears to be taken well after 1979, it would seem he still generates music, if perhaps not on a professional basis. I'm removing the former. --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:44, 17 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the word former should be removed as well based on the facts that he's listed as a current member of The Kingsmen on their webpage, and that there is video footage and media covering the band's reunion with Yank 2 years ago. --JustAnotherNerdWithWords (talk) 19:39, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Compare the Kingsman lineup page from 2013 ("If your name is not here, you were never a Kingsmen!") [1] with the current page [2]. There seems to have been some rewriting of history. However, he has been on a stage singing in recent years. Here he is, in 2013.[3] John Nagle (talk) 20:22, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Former former musician"? :) - Richfife (talk) 21:42, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a little bit confused as I see Yank's name on the archived Kingsman page as well, with an update to it on the current one stating that he's become an active member again. Just seems to me that there were issues between the band members at some point (probably related whats illustrated in the music career section) but once those issues were resolved with the Kingsmen, they updated the page to the most recent information. More than enough bands break up over problems, members will take a break from music and come back to rejoin the band at a later date when those differences were resolved. But to get back on the actual topic, if Yank has performed in recent years and does not consider himself retired, I'm going to remove the word Former and make it my first official wiki edit :). Totally off topic quickly (I hope I'm not breaking etiquette here still very new), I'd LOVE to talk video games and MPEG tech with you Richfife. Gaming history (MUDS/MUSH) is the main topic I plan on focusing on, and MPEG tech is an old love of mine as well. -- JustAnotherNerdWithWords (talk) 18:53, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Congratulations on your first "mainspace" Wiki-edit! (Incidentally, though, and I'm not saying it makes any difference to that edit, but I suggest carefully reading the part of this article that discusses Barry's relationship to the Kingsmen.) —BarrelProof (talk) 20:04, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you BarrelProof and please do continue to make suggestions on checking on what may be related content and other wiki tips. It'll help me get familiarized with how the site works. I have read it over a number of times and some time in the future would love to discuss the topic more in depth as I get more comfortable being member of the wiki community. Its why I referenced it in my last message when I mentioned the issues illustrated in the music career section. But if there is enough proof that those issues have been resolved and the updated Kingsmen page reflects that Yank is a recognized member of the band both in the past and present, shouldn't that information be added to the section as well? --JustAnotherNerdWithWords (talk) 21:15, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have any special knowledge of the subject. My understanding is that what the article says is basically true – i.e., that Barry was authorized to perform using the Kingsmen's name, at a time when the original group was on hiatus. According to the current band web site content, that incarnation of the group was authorized by at least some band members as well as the band's business managers. Whether the band members authorized those performances (and whether they even knew about them) is the part that seems to differ on the current web site, relative to what it said a few years earlier. The original band members later got upset with the business management (apparently over lack of getting paid) and demanded that the performances stop. At that point Barry may no longer have been one of the performers. As best I can tell, the band members never got upset with the performers – only with the managers. Four decades later the band members expressed support for Barry's charity efforts, and performed together with him once in 2014. It's hard to tell some of this for certain. It would be nice to find some independent sources that are from the '60s and '70s that talk about those events, but we don't seem to have them. There seems to be no record of who the other people were that performed with Barry as the Kingsmen, and the band's web site says he doesn't remember them. What a self-published web site said 40 years later and how that site changed another few years after that is not really as strong a sourcing as any of us would like. —BarrelProof (talk) 00:45, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I let my mom choose the first page to edit, she turned on her web radio station heard Louie Louie and said "Oh I remember the Kingsmen, go look them up", and now here I am Googling the day away. I'm getting myself familiarized with the story as I go along myself so I appreciate the summary. Using the same train of thought regarding the self-published site for a source, shouldn't the same line of thinking be applied to the cease and desist order paragraph as it's coming from an archived copy of the same page? The only other source used on the topic off the Kingsmen Wiki page [1] doesn't really shed any light on the story either and doesn't even reference the cease and desist. It just loops back to him not showing up on the Kingsmen webpage 14 years ago. Since we've somewhat hijacked this Talk section with a somewhat unrelated conversation, I'd love to take my next step in Wiki editing and start a Talk thread about the Music Career section of the Wiki page and begin to learn the process of sourcing information and making a real edit. --JustAnotherNerdWithWords (talk) 05:01, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://web.archive.org/web/20020802014803/http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20020421/ctvnews859549/
You may wish to look at this thread here. - Richfife (talk) 02:38, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Richfife I'll take a look through. Appreciate the additional resources. --JustAnotherNerdWithWords (talk) 05:09, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Editing of the "Musical Career" section

Hey Everyone, first off I'd like to thank both Richfife and Barrelproof for starting me on the way to learning how to Wiki edit. I looked over the thread and vote you showed me Richfife and I'd still like to reopen the conversation regarding Yank being a member of the Kingsmen before making any additional edits. There are a number of reasons I feel an edit is in order. The first is based on some of the sourcing used for the section: If an archived version of louielouie.org is a valid source for the section about the cease and desist order [1], then why wouldn't the current version be a valid source to reference to add that he is now recognized as a member[2]? The other reason I'd like to see an edit done are a couple articles I found regarding either Yank or his involvement in the Kingsmen [3] [4]. After going through everything I've found and the article you provided Richfife, I feel like this is a story that hasn't been told in it's entirety or with complete accuracy. --JustAnotherNerdWithWords (talk) 02:03, 10 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://web.archive.org/web/20110316060331/http://www.louielouie.org/modules.php?name=Kingsmen_Lineup
  2. ^ http://www.louielouie.org/modules.php?name=Kingsmen_Lineup
  3. ^ http://thehotelalbert.com/download/eye_magazine.pdf
  4. ^ http://www.mtv.com/artists/the-kingsmen/biography/
That MTV page does not meet Wikipedia's standards as a reliable source, as it's fan generated content not actually backed by the publishing site (as can be seen at the bottom of the page). I've not reviewed the other source. --Nat Gertler (talk) 02:16, 10 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you NatGertler. I totally missed that part of the small print. Looking back I've seen you've been involved in this wiki page in a while. Maybe you'd be able to answer my question regarding the archived Kingsmen page being a valid source for 1 part of the article but not the current one. --JustAnotherNerdWithWords (talk) 17:37, 10 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest reviewing WP:SELFPUB. Basically, the band's web site is self-published, and self-published sources tend to not be fully objective and reliable, although they may be reasonable places to look for basic uncontroversial facts. They tend to sometimes bend the truth here and there, and to leave out some things that most people would consider important and relevant. It would be much better to find independent sources that are reliable, and when we're talking about things that happened decades ago, it would be nice if those sources are old too, or at least if the source would clearly describe where they got the information they are reporting. Often, sources just repeat what people tell them without making it clear whether they checked it for precise accuracy, and sometimes a source will consider some side remark (e.g. as background info about someone) to be unimportant detail without realizing that someone else may look to that remark as a key fact to focus on. (Truth be told, "reliable" sources will often get some details wrong even if they're given all the correct facts, but there are some problems Wikipedia just can't solve.) —BarrelProof (talk) 18:48, 10 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Guys let me just say, please keep making this as difficult a challenge as you can. I'm loving how hard you're making it for me to validate my first real edit to a wiki page (Plus my mom is enjoying seeing me go nuts on Google!). Even after reviewing WP:SELFPUB I still think that a change should be made to reflect the updated information that's been provided from the same (and only) source of the original article. If an update isn't made based on WP:SELFPUB, shouldn't the original update to Yank's page also fall under that category as well (or even WP:EXCEPTIONAL as it's the only source of the claim). I don't think that the part of the Cease & Desist order should be removed as it's obviously a valid part of the story of Yank being a Kingsmen. What I do believe is that a change to the article that reflects the band's "Clearing the Air" section (Right side bottom of [1]) should be made stating something along the lines of "While it was originally thought that Yank was part of the Cease & Desist order that members of the band sent [2], it was later clarified that Yank was not part of the Cease & Desist order and it was only sent to their managers after the band stopped receiving their royalties. By then Yank had already left the Kingsmen."[3]. As always, a pleasure and can't wait to get my next "wiki schooling". --JustAnotherNerdWithWords (talk) 16:41, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.louielouie.org/modules.php?name=Kingsmen_Lineup
  2. ^ https://web.archive.org/web/20110316060331/http://www.louielouie.org/modules.php?name=Kingsmen_Lineup
  3. ^ http://www.louielouie.org/modules.php?name=Kingsmen_Lineup
I support your opinion that some refinement of that part of the article is desirable. However, I suggest not to say "what was originally thought". That would invite the question of who was doing the thinking that is being described, and I don't think we really have sources that we can cite to discuss what people were thinking. I think we should just give the facts that don't seem to be disputed (and we should try to not leave out any of the key facts). Barry was the lead singer of a group that toured as the Kingsmen and played the Kingsman's music. That series of performances (which apparently didn't include releasing any new recordings) was authorized to use that name and to perform that music by the original group's managers. That group didn't include any of the original band members. Later, that group was shut down due to a dispute between the original band members and the management team. The prior band members demanded that the performances stop because they were not getting paid for them. By the time those performances were stopped by the dispute, Barry wasn't part of that group anymore. When it comes to the question of whether the prior band members knew about the separate group that was using their name and whether those band members authorized that to happen, there seems to be a contradiction between the old band-site content and the new band-site content, so I suggest that the article just not talk about those aspects, since we don't have a reliable source of information about that. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:06, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The strikethrough above is because the 2011 site content does not say that the dispute was over payment. It gives the impression that the dispute was primarily about a lack of authorization and awareness rather than a lack of payment (although it does also mention that the management was "pocketing the remainder"). —BarrelProof (talk) 21:15, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A second strikethrough above is because the statement saying that Barry was no longer one of the performers when the alternative group was shut down is also missing from the 2011 site content. That version of the site just refers to "These five musicians" and flatly says "Yank Barry sang lead for that group", without any hint at a personnel change during that period. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:28, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
BarrelProof, thank you for the tip on wording. I love the phrasing you've used on this both for it's accuracy as well as how you've phrased it. If you want to use this for the edit I think it's great, but I'd love to spend a few days and try to come up with something as well. Working on this has really been fun and I'd like to make this my first real edit (especially since finding sourcing on my other project has been even more difficult than I thought). As always, really do appreciate you all entertaining this wiki newbie. --JustAnotherNerdWithWords (talk) 03:58, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Worth noting?

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/yank-barry

- Richfife (talk) 19:54, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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