Talk:Murder of Seth Rich

Profiling Project report

@Calton: Re[1] Care to explain why you don't think so? It's what the report says.Terrorist96 (talk) 06:23, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Not my job, yours: if you want to add material, you have to explain why. Particularly if you want to shoehorn in some drivel propping up a conspiracy theory. --Calton | Talk 06:30, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

I thought I did a pretty good job explaining with my edit summary. Doesn't seem like you even looked at it based on the knee-jerked revert (one minute after my edit). Please actually look at the edit summary, the DC ABC article and the actual report itself (all linked in my edit). The report mentions it on page 2 under the executive summary (#3 under "what we found"). And I'd like to remind you to AGF.Terrorist96 (talk) 06:35, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

You appear to not understand how a talk page works. Do you need advice? --Calton | Talk 07:08, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Umm... I don't even understand your objection to begin talking about it. I've been on Wikipedia for 10 years, so no, I don't need advice on how a talk page works. Please drop the snark. All I did was add information, included two sources for it (the primary source and a secondary source reporting on it) and you just came in and said "No, I don't think so" without explaining what was wrong with my edit and why you saw fit to revert it without even looking at it. If we're going to mention the Profiling Project report, it's important not to WP:CHERRYPICK.Terrorist96 (talk) 07:21, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Umm... I don't even understand your objection to begin talking about it Since I've made no such objection, I can see why you're confused. And referring to an edit summary -- not even quoting it, even -- is not "talking about it". Which, once again, is YOUR job, as someone who claims to have been editing Wikipedia for ten years should be familiar with. And since you also invoke WP:AGF, perhaps you should have some understanding of, given YOUR immediate assumption of bad faith a couple of sentences previous to that.

Are you SURE you don't want some pointers? --Calton | Talk 07:29, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Dude, you're going in circles. I described my edit summary to you. But here it is again: All I did was add information, included two sources for it (the primary source and a secondary source reporting on it) and here is the actual edit summary, since you didn't read it before reverting (otherwise why are you asking me for it?) Noted that the report says his "death was more likely committed by a hired killer or serial murderer" and included link to local DC ABC news story plus the report itself for verification Now stop being difficult and tell me what is your objection. The only assumption I made was that you knew what your were reverting.Terrorist96 (talk) 07:43, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

That this "Profiling Project" exists and has conducted its own investigation is of slight relevance to the article, so it got a brief mention in the "Aftermath" section. Their findings, whatever they may be, are not really relevant. They are not an investigative body, they are just a group of fans, onlookers, busybodies, what term you'd prefer. This is like 4chan"investigating" the Boston Marathon Bombing; somewhat mention-worthy that the case attracted internet sleuths, but their "findings"? Not important. ValarianB (talk) 15:09, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Speaking of conspiracy theories, is there any reason why the term is used in this article twice as often as in "911 Truth" or "Moon landing hoax conspiracy theories?" It seems that the emphasis is so shrill it weakens the case we want to make. TFD (talk) 07:15, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

"Conspiracy theory/theories/theorists" is mentioned 28 times in the article body by my count. What some elements of the right-wing have done regarding this case is certainly conspiracy theorizing, but we could be a less wordy about it. ValarianB (talk) 15:09, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

• If we're going to include the Profiling Project report--I take no position on that at this time--then we should accurately reflect what the report says according to reliable sources. Terrorist96 has provided what appears to be a reliable source saying that the report concluded that the murder was "more likely committed by a hired killer." --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:09, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Which is misleading because the report also rules out assassination by both Democrats and the Russians, favoring a serial killer instead. Yet, it also considers a "hired killer", which is why the report is going viral in right-wing sources: because it blows a dogwhistle for conspiracy theorists while ostensibly running away from their conspiracy theories. You should read the report for yourself, you'll find that it adds absolutely nothing useful to the discussion. Reliable sources or not, I don't knowingly add stuff to articles that is false or misleading. Others may have no problem with that. Geogene (talk) 05:27, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

I am not sure your ability to hear high-pitched whistles is a verifiable thing. The quotation within the report-- as reported by Newsweek-- says "[D]eath was more likely committed by a hired killer or serial murderer." That is the quotation. As noted elsewhere, a preceding clause that makes clear their belief that conspiracy theories are unfounded is perfectly appropriate. Seeing how they are hypotheses. But omitting their own language about a hired killer is clear bias based on the auditory powers of particular editors.--72.94.247.243 (talk) 21:47, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

How many Talk Page sections do we need to discuss the same content? See [2]. This seems to add nothing to what has previously been presented. It's so little, in fact, that I can copy-edit ALL of it into a relatively short paragraph, here...

• WASHINGTON (ABC7) — The investigation into the death of Democratic National Committee worker Seth Rich is still an open homicide case 10 months after he was murdered in the District's Bloomingdale neighborhood. A group of George Washington University graduate students have spent the past few months probing into Rich's death. Only on ABC7 News, I-Team Investigator Scott Taylor takes us inside the Profiling Project for an exclusive look. A group of GWU grad students are taking a forensic look through link analysis in the murder of Rich at an undisclosed location. "We are trying to figure out persons of interest in any areas that the police may have overlooked," Kevin Zhang, a volunteer with the Profiling Project, said. GOP lobbyist Jack Burkman, who put up $105,000 of his own money as a reward to help solve Rich's murder, is also funding the Profiling Project and made the announcement of its creation months ago. The students working on the project are volunteers, studying criminal investigation and forensics. "This is a skill set that they have. These folks are going to become profilers. They are going to become Lead Investigative Agents," Kevin Doherty, who’s also a volunteer, said. They are developing a profile of Rich in three stages like any other murder investigation. The first stage is to identify the Seth Rich people know. The second stage is to discover the private side of Seth Rich and the last stage is to discover if there is any secret side to the murder victim. All the while, making sure they respect the wishes of his family. "It's very important to remember as an outcome of this whole situation. We want to kind of keep his family in mind and give his family some closure," Volunteer Sarah Tahmourpour said. The Profiling Project's main goal is to find at least one piece of new information that has practical value to the murder investigation. "What we found is there actually is possibly another surveillance camera that may have been missed in the initial investigation so we have turned that over to the police," Zhang said. The reward for solving Rich's murder is now up to $250,000. ABC7 News reached out to D.C. Police. Detectives on the case are in contact with the Profiling Project.

If anything from this is deemed WP:DUE, I agree with Shearonink [3] that it should be accompanied by an inline attribution to Jack Burkman..."GOP lobbyist Jack Burkman, who put up $105,000 of his own money as a reward to help solve Rich's murder, is also funding the Profiling Project -- DN (talk) 10:37, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Needs serous POV fixes

This article is overblown with statements poisoning the well by mentioning pizzagate conspiracy theory all over the place. These references should be removed, or the entire article deleted. It doesn't read anything like a an unbiased encyclopedia entry, but an overly defensive propaganda piece. Squ1rr3l - Talk to me! 17:39, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

If there's passages that you find problematic, by all means present them here for analysis, waving a casual hand at the article and declaring "it is all biased!" is unhelpful and off-putting. Make sure to check through the talk page archives though and see if your complaints have been raised before, as this article follows what reliable news sources have to say, and does not and cannot include material from unreliable sources, such as the Breitbarts of the world. ValarianB (talk) 18:31, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

I thought I explained the issue very well - there are lots of references to pizzagate and theorists promoting it that really have nothing to do with the alleged murder or the conspiracy theories that have grown up around it. But, if you want details, I will reference the specifics of the article and where it goes off the rails, and clearly violate POV by poisoning the well. Soon. Squ1rr3l - Talk to me! 20:58, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

In fact there are not, just a few passing references in opinion pieces. It is presented as an ad hominem argument: Alex Jones is talking about Seth Rich, he also talked about Pizzagate, which was a hoax, therefore anyone who questions the circumstances of Rich's death is promoting a hoax. We should not be presenting explicit arguments without intext attribution. TFD (talk) 00:43, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Is that what the sources say, or not? DN (talk) 05:54, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, but I do not understand your question. Is what what the sources say? TFD (talk) 04:33, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Here is the section I assume you are referring to, please point out which portions have been editorialized or presented without intext attribution...

• The same venues that fomented the false Pizzagate conspiracy theory helped to promulgate the Seth Rich murder conspiracy theories,[69][70][11] and each shared similar features.[71][72][73] Both were promoted by individuals ascribing to far-right politics,[74] and by campaign officials and individuals appointed to senior-level national security roles by Donald Trump.[75][76][77] After prior coordination on Facebook, each theory was spread on Twitter by automated bots using a branded hashtag, with the goal of becoming a trending topic.[69] Both the Pizzagate conspiracy theory and the Seth Rich murder conspiracy theory were spread in the sub reddit forum promoting Donald Trump, called "The Donald".[78] In both conspiracy theories, the promoters attempted to shift the burden of proof — asking others to attempt to disprove their claims, without citing substantiated evidence.[52] Slate called the claims about Seth Rich: a "PizzaGate-like conspiracy theory surrounding Rich’s death",[79] The Huffington Post described it as "the 'alt-right' idiocy of Pizzagate all over again",[73] NPR's David Folkenflik said Fox News coverage of it "evokes the pizza-gate terrible allegations utterly unfounded",[80] and Margaret Sullivan wrote for The Washington Post: "The Seth Rich lie has become the new Comet Ping Pong ... Crazy, baseless and dangerous."[81] --DN (talk) 18:50, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

At first glance, it seems like someone mashed together a bunch of op eds and wrote a paragraph mostly in Wikipedia's voice. The sources do make the connection between pizzagate and this article, so we should definitely have a paragraph or a section devoted to that. But the tone of the paragraph is indeed POV'ish, that is, it treats opinion pieces as facts. Also, is this really a RS? person who wrote it goes unnecessarily (and unironically) biblical on conspiracy theorists, in any case it's completely POV, just as all the other sources cited for that paragraph. These opinions should be attributed and it'd be ok I reckon. Darwinian Ape ^talk 15:57, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Opinion pieces are not reliable sources of facts (even if the facts are true) and therefore we cannot use them to source facts. The first source used for example is an opinion piece by Farhood Manjoo. Note that facts may be assembled in a way to lead a reader to a conclusion, which is what opinion pieces and the segment in Wikipedia do. What the article is saying is: The people who pushed Pizzagate are pushing this narrative. Pizzagate is a proven hoax, therefore any narrative that departs from the robbery-gone-wrong position is false. Wikipedia articles should not contain implicit arguments, although we of course can and should present opinions, provided they are sourced in-text.

I should mention too that this type of argument is only persuasive to people who are already sympathetic to the DNC, it's preaching to the choir. It's better to present the facts, explain the degree of acceptance of the major explanation, and avoid the polemics.

TFD (talk) 22:27, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Edit request

De-link "Brittany Pettibone", please. Article was deleted, no need to keep a red link in the article body. TheValeyard (talk) 15:39, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Done jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 18:39, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Picture

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Seth_Rich_memorial.jpg

Put this in the "Aftermath" section which says "In October 2016, a plaque and bike rack outside the DNC headquarters were dedicated to Rich's memory."

Caption: "Bike rack (top) and plaque (bottom) outside the DNC headquaters" Johanna745 (talk) 02:49, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Done DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 05:13, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 July 2017

The second paragraph states that there is a "groundless claim" that Rich had been involved with the leaked DNC emails in 2016. That is an opinion and yet to be determined. I suggest removing the word 'groundless'. 98.117.55.213 (talk) 23:02, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Until some evidence of the claim is produced, it is groundless by definition. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:04, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Not done: per MPants jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 23:11, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

USE OF "DEBUNKED" IN SECOND PARAGRAPH IS UNWARRANTED

Edit request. From the second paragraph: "These theories were debunked by law enforcement,[5][6]" According to https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/debunk "There are plenty of synonyms for "debunk," including "disprove," "rebut," "refute," and the somewhat rarer "confute." Even "falsify" can mean "prove something false," in addition to "make something false." "Debunk" itself often suggests that something is not merely untrue, but also a sham; one can simply disprove a myth, but if it is "debunked," the implication is that it was a grossly exaggerated or foolish claim." (end of quotation) I don't believe anyone has actually disproved that Rich was killed in retaliation for revealing various emails. The organizations listed can be correctly stated as having "denied" that idea, but to rise to the level of "debunk" would probably require some sort of proof that it isn't true, rather than a mere denial that it is true. If the actual murderer were caught and tried, that could easily amount to "debunking" the concept, for example. Also, the definition discussion from Merriam-Webster suggests that the allegation must actually be a "sham", a "grossly-exaggerated or foolish claim". Was the suggestion that Rich was murdered in retaliation "a sham"? Was it a "grossly-exaggerated or foolish claim"? Is it completely inconceivable that a person working for the DNC might have been killed for revealing emails? I don't see any elements of that idea which qualify under these labels. Also, much is made in the various cites of conclusions that Russia supplied "the emails" to Wikileaks. There's no proof supplied for this; and even if it is true that some emails were hacked by Russia's people, that does not automatically disprove the idea that emails were also obtained by other means (including by other hackers, or insiders?) and were themselves supplied to the media or Wikileaks, or both. The cites seemingly being used to "disprove" the Seth Rich connection imply that emails might have been obtained and released by Russia, or Seth Rich, but not by both. Since Russia's activities are claimed to be proven, this is used alone to disprove Seth Rich's involvement. That doesn't amount to "debunking" the retaliation story. 2601:1C2:4E01:CE00:4146:2231:C4F1:8E76 (talk) 01:14, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Reliable sources say otherwise, sorry. The text will not be changed. TheValeyard (talk) 01:33, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

You sound quite certain. But you don't prove your point. You need to show that "reliable sources" ACTUALLY "say otherwise". I've made a valid point, that the use of the word "debunked" is improper. This word is used in the voice of Wikipedia, not merely as a quote from a so-called "reliable source". And even if a "reliable source" actually used that word, it doesn't mean that it was a proper assertion. Go back and try to prove your point. Don't make it sound like a group of partisans control this article. Even if they think they do. 2601:1C2:4E01:CE00:4146:2231:C4F1:8E76 (talk) 02:30, 28 July 2017 (UTC)