Jump to content

Talk:Carles Puigdemont

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Thehistorian10 (talk | contribs) at 14:17, 29 October 2017 (→‎Protection). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

WikiProject iconBiography: Politics and Government C‑class
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
CThis article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the politics and government work group.
WikiProject iconJournalism C‑class
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Journalism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of journalism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JournalismWikipedia:WikiProject JournalismTemplate:WikiProject JournalismJournalism articles
CThis article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconCatalonia C‑class Top‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Catalonia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Catalonia and Catalonia-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CataloniaWikipedia:WikiProject CataloniaTemplate:WikiProject CataloniaCatalonia articles
CThis article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
TopThis article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale.
WikiProject iconSpain C‑class
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Spain, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Spain on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SpainWikipedia:WikiProject SpainTemplate:WikiProject SpainSpain articles
CThis article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconPolitics C‑class High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
CThis article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

ESM

--ESM (talk) 16:04, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what this new section means. I had previously assumed it was a signature mistakenly left after addition/ adjustment of the header banners. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:29, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Right Honourable

Why is he styled as such? Ueutyi (talk) 04:41, 1 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation

The recording was made with a computer, not with real person. --92.75.107.147 (talk) 11:41, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Be that as it may, it does not seem to match the IPA: the second ə in Catalan pronunciation: [ˈkarɫəs pudʒðəˈmon i kazəməˈʒo] ⓘ sounds different from the first and more like e. Looking at Help:IPA/Catalan, I wonder if it is Valencian. PJTraill (talk) 22:17, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Additions on/after Oct 1, 2017

Many of the additions on/after Oct 1, 2017 are written in non-neutral wording and do not cite sources. I've added a POV tag at the top of the page. -- Palal (talk). —Preceding undated comment added 12:05, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Palal , please give examples ore make propositions what you want to change. Your very sporadic few edits give me no idea ... --Neun-x (talk) 23:00, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Stop attacking him personally! It doesn't matter how active he is and you shouldn't make up opinions on past edits because his views are not guidelines for the improvement of the article. That would be biased too. He just pointed out the problem and any person with a clear mind can tell how certain phrases might not be ideal. --92.74.22.131 (talk) 14:48, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Catalan politician"

There is no Nationality or Citizenship parameter in "Template:Infobox officeholder", so that's one thing less to fight over. But, as far as the article lead section is concerned, should he be described as "Spanish" or as "Catalan"? I don't see how Spanish can be wrong as such, as Catalonia is (currently) still part of Spain. And Catalonia is not (yet) a separate nation. But should the article not be guided mainly by how Puigdemont chooses to describe himself? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:34, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Three comments: I agree that how he describes himself is a key factor; it is also relevant that he is not a member of the Spanish parliament, in which case there could be more of a case for calling him a Spanish politician; thirdly it is interesting to note how politicians are described elsewhere where they are advocating independence for part of an existing country - e.g. most politicians from Scotland are described as 'Scottish' rather than British. Lin4671 (talk) 16:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So maybe that's a false alternative. Perhaps "Spanish (Catalan) politician" is a good compromise? Although I can't see "British Scottish politician" proving to be very popular. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:51, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am with the "how he describes himself" side, and have edited it to say that he is Catalan only. With the independence standoff and the surrounding emotions running so high right now, it's NOT neutral to call Mr. Puigdemont "Spanish."207.210.148.158 (talk) 14:26, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

When describing Puigdemont's nationality, it is important to note the definition of Nationality. Nation and Nation State are two separate concepts. Catalonia is officially designated as a nationality by its Statute of Autonomy [1]. Therefore, it is correct to say that Carles Puigdemont is of Catalan Nationality but Spanish Citizenship, even if Catalan is a constituent Nationality of Spanish. Also, I should point out that many wikipedia articles use the adjective of ethnicity as well as nationality. I apologize for not discussing my previous edits. DewyBukiaPeters (talk) 21:38, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If a consensus has been reached here, please can we request page (semi-)protection? User, 204.187.67.25 keeps making edits that push one side of a political agenda and the notion that Catalonia is "not a nation" despite it saying the contrary in Catalonia's Statute of Autonomy. As this user is not registered, they cannot be directly contacted and only their IP can be blocked. It seems that my reasoning and references have been completely ignored and the user is not interested in defending their claim on this talk page or anywhere else in a logical manner. DewyBukiaPeters (talk) 12:56, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I tend o agree with you. Perhaps User:Lin4671 could offer their view before a request is made? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:01, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. Unfortunately it may be necessary to request semi-protection as at least stop unreqistered editors seeking to push a point of view - one would hope that registered editors have a better understanding of how Wikipedia works and would not seek to push agendas in the same way. Lin4671 (talk) 13:08, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If any of you have time, may I suggest you do the same for other pages in the same situation? If you look contributions made by 204.187.67.25, you will see that he has edited the pages of other notable Catalan people in exactly the same manner, including Oriol Junqueras and many others. This strongly suggests his motivations are entirely political. Given the politically contentious situation in Catalonia, the pages of notable Catalan figures should at least be semi-protected if not fully protected for the sake of neutrality. A fast way of finding these pages is viewing the edits made by 204.187.67.25. If the wikilink doesn't work here, just click on previous edits of Carles Puigdemont and you will see the IP address in question. DewyBukiaPeters (talk) 13:32, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The underlying assumption here that no one has provided any evidence for is that when the lede sentence describes him as "Spanish" or "Catalan" it is necessarily attempting to talk about "nationality" rather than "citizenship". I see no basis for such an assumption. Calling him "Spanish" is unquestionably correct. I think it is those who have recently decided to alter this and related articles to say "Catalan" instead of "Spanish" who are the ones pushing an agenda. At the very least some form of compromise position along the lines of "Spanish (Catalan)" ought to be workable. LacrimosaDiesIlla (talk) 14:00, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Two more points which I think are important in this discussion are (1) all of the communities of Spain are "autonomous" and politicians in the other communities are routinely described simply as "Spanish" so the autonomy of Catalonia is completely irrelevant for this discussion and (2) the United Kingdom is actually made up of four constituent countries so Scotland is a country within the United Kingdom and hence the way Scottish politicians are described is not a good parallel for making an argument about Catalonia, which is not a separate country within Spain. LacrimosaDiesIlla (talk) 14:06, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If there is dispute on whether the adjective described nationality, ethnicity or citizenship, perhaps the best compromise would be to omit the adjective. It wasn't actually there until recently. Therefore, I suggest rephrasing the sentence as "politician from Catalonia, Spain". That way, there is no debate regarding what the adjective refers to. DewyBukiaPeters (talk) 14:13, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, older versions of the article have taken different approaches. Early this year the article said he was a "Spanish Catalan politician" until someone deleted both adjectives to "avoid unnecessary conflict". But there are also facts involved here, and Wikipedia deals in facts, whether people's feelings are hurt by them or not. He is both Catalan and Spanish, we should be able to find a way to say both things. LacrimosaDiesIlla (talk) 14:28, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Is it an indisputable fact that he is a Catalan? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:20, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Given that he has an obvious Catalan-style name, is from Catalonia, and belongs to a Catalonian nationalist party, I don't think anyone is questioning whether or not he is Catalan. LacrimosaDiesIlla (talk) 14:28, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad we can agree that. Describing him as a "Spanish politician" is clear and simple, but it suggests he is a member of the Spanish parliament, which he is not? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:32, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, it does not imply that. It implies that he is a politician from Spain, which he is. American state-level politicians are routinely described as "American politicians" and it doesn't imply that they hold federal office; it just means they're politicians from the US. If you want to know what kind of political office they hold at which level, you read the next sentence. Same deal here. LacrimosaDiesIlla (talk) 14:43, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well I only said "suggests", but I think what you say is perfectly reasonable. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:44, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I have now requested semi-protection at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:43, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I think full protection might be needed before too long. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:24, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

...and to think, that I believed that this nationalists stuff only occurred in the British bio articles :( GoodDay (talk) 17:59, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]


References

  1. ^ "First article of the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia. 'Catalonia, as a nationality, exercises its self-government constituted as an autonomous community...'". Gencat.cat. Archived from the original on 28 May 2008. Retrieved 13 September 2013. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

1st president of the Catalan republic

Carles Puigdemont is at the moment the 1st president of the (Unrecognised)Catalan republic. I think we shoud add that in the infobox. Catalan_republic_(2017)83.86.208.191 (talk) 15:16, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

When brand new countries announce themselves, isn't it usual to wait for some kind of official recognition from other countries? the United Nations? some other kind of official validation? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:33, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia always add presidents(of other functions) of a unrecognised country in the infobox of that president. For example: Bako_Sahakyan Vadim_Krasnoselsky Igor_Plotnitsky Alexander_Zakharchenko83.86.208.191 (talk) 15:49, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Francesc Macía is credited as "President of the Republic" despite a similar lack of recognition, so precedent suggests Puigdemont can be similarly credited [1]. Culloty82 (talk) 15:54, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for clarifying that. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:58, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, it should be added to the infobox that he is the First President of the Catalan Republic (albeit, noted that the position is unrecognized at the moment). Should we receive further information on the name and details of the position, it should be modified to the correct information.

Haven't followed this situation too closely. Does Catalonia even consider itself a republic? Perhaps they're a monarchy, with Philip as its monarch. GoodDay (talk) 16:53, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The recent referendum explicitly called for independence as a republic. PatGallacher (talk) 17:16, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
To original poster, it's still under heavy dispute as to weather their is a Republic of Catalonia. According to the Spanish Constitution, there isn't. GoodDay (talk) 18:07, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
agree, but there is also official not a donetsk republic, but their leader is also president is the infobox83.86.208.191 (talk) 18:19, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unrecognized states such as Transnistria, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia have their state leaders listed with office boxes as well. LXM Volo (talk) 22:51, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Puigdemont is NOT president of any political entity. He WAS the president of the Generalitat but was suspended/fired by Mariano Rajoy. The declaration of independence is illegal, Puigdemont violated the Spanish constitution, Catalonia is still part of Spain . Also the European Union condemned his act. Edu (talk) 03:46, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Puigdemont et al's responses to this have yet to be seen, as Rajoy issued the termination late last night, so the response of the newly-declared Catalan Republic—Internationally-recognised or not—to that decree is another matter entirely, and one which I await with trepidation for all the possible outcomes, as precisely none them are going to end well. —TwoWholeWorms (talk) 07:38, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Puigdemont has not even disputed his removal as of yet, much less declared he is the "President of the Republic of Catalonia" or whatever. So, for now, we must assume he was sacked. We shall see what his reaction is, and will act in consequence. Impru20 (talk) 08:41, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The whole point of declaring independence was to be free of control from Madrid. Independence having been declared, the catalan authorities will no longer be recognising any 'orders' from madrid, so Puigdemont will not consider himself sacked. That said, he will also no longer consider himself president of a regional government but of a national government. Lin4671 (talk) 09:30, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Director of the Mossos d'Esquadra, Pere Soler i Campins, did indeed acknowledge Madrid's orders despite the independence declaration, so what you say cannot be taken for granted. We need evidence that the Catalan government, including Puigdemont himself, is indeed going to resist and that the independence declaration was not merely symbolic. Whether Puigdemont considers himself sacked or not, we cannot know until he says. Impru20 (talk) 09:34, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
you all don't understand, the fact is that he is the president of the Unrecognised Catalan republic. But we should add that in his infobox just like we did it for all other presidents of Unrecognised republics83.86.208.191 (talk) 10:13, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Other "presidents of unrecognised republics" do consider themselves as such. Let's wait for Puigdemont to actually announce that, if he does. Currently some sources are pointing that the Catalan government may actually not resist the Spanish takeover of the Generalitat. Impru20 (talk) 10:15, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Just after giving a press conference, where he has rejected Spanish actions and Article 155, so presumably he does now consider himself President of the Republic? Culloty82 (talk) 12:42, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
He did not clarify whether he and his government would acknowledge the Spanish government's instructions, much less considering himself President of the Republic. As his formal title ("President of the Generalitat of Catalonia") is a neutral one (the "Generalitat of Catalonia" being an historic term trascending the autonomous community) we should leave it as it is, and mark it as disputed from 27 October onwards. I've already done it. Impru20 (talk) 12:47, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesc_Macià

Community Sanctions

A proposal has been made to impose community sanctions including possible editing restrictions, on the topic of Catalan independence. Interested editors may join the discussion here. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:52, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Disputed

In what way is the suspension "disputed"? Controversial for sure, but it has certainly occurred has it not? Bagunceiro (talk) 20:51, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Puigdemont has just walked away, has he? "He condemned the suspension of Catalonia's autonomy and promised to continue to "work to build a free country": [1]. But I acknowledge User:Impru20's last comment at the "1st president of the Catalan republic" thread above. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:04, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don`t understand what that has to do with it. The office in question (President of the Generalitat of Catalonia) has been suspended. It isn`t in Puigdemont's power to overide that suspension, condemn it as much as he wishes. It`s a legal fact. The office of President of the Republic of Catalunya is a different matter - I haven't heard that he is declaring himself that but that would be a fair case of "disputed". Bagunceiro (talk) 21:54, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, I was taking "condemnation" to mean "disputed". But within the Constitution of Spain I guess there is no room for "dispute"? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:01, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Does Carles Puigdemont have FAS?

He looks like he has FAS, can someone verify? Thanks.221.218.98.96 (talk) 12:28, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have even the slightest suggestion of a source for such a claim? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:32, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

He has been sacked

Read this, he is no longer president.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41794087

Um, that happened on Friday? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:36, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Protection

At the moment, this article is only semi-protected. While that is a good start, this article is still very controversial (indeed, there's a dispute over the basic issue as to what Mr Puigdemont's role is), and semi-protection does not effectively protect against vandalism, because while it prevents unregistered, or very new, users from editing the page, it still allows those users who have been users for quite a while, to edit (and potentially vandalise) this page. I'm going to request either ECP or full protection on the basis of vandalism. The Historian (talk) 14:17, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Carles_Puigdemont&oldid=807680665"