Talk:Karna

To change the article

I had edited 60% article of this topic because those all story were false according to original Mahabharat. some frustrated person added those false story by giving the unauthentic source or wrong link. LINK OF ORIGINAL MAHABHARAT:- http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/maha/index.htm

So please accept my long edit and dont change them Nangu karna (talk) 02:57, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

@Nangu karna: Wikipedia articles cannot be based upon primary sources alone, and sacred texts are primary sources. The articles should also cite secondary sources, like scholarly research done on the subject. —C.Fred (talk) 03:03, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

By allowing all those false stuff on wiki, you are unnecessary degrading/insulting other hero of Mahabharat. Nangu karna (talk) 03:10, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

@Nangu karna: According to what secondary sources is the information false? —C.Fred (talk) 03:18, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

there is no any authenticity of secondary source overall i want to say that adding false story on wiki is not wrong but adding false story on wiki to degrade other hero is wrong Nangu karna (talk) 03:26, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

@Nangu karna: With all due respect, then you need to familiarize yourself with how Wikipedia works. All articles need to be based on reliable, secondary sources. Wikipedia cannot, in its own voice, interpret sacred texts. We may provide direct quotes, but any commentary on what they mean must come from reliable independent sources—and usually that means scholarly sources. —C.Fred (talk) 03:33, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

@Nangu karna: It is wrong to put wrong info in wiki aswell. Please put only authentic information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bops123 (talk • contribs)

Request for full-protection of the page

Greetings. I want to request full protection of Karna's page, as I see some people constantly making edits to the page that are wrong, even though the page they cite as the source states otherwise.

Perhaps this is due to malicious intents or simple frustration, because the character overshadows many other characters, which might include some of their favourites. Rhilus (talk) 12:38, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Not done: requests for increases to the page protection level should be made at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:01, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

This article on Karna needs improvement

In the article it has been mentioned that Karna is far more inferior to Arjuna, nowhere in the Mahabharata it has been mentioned like this. In fact Karna was more superior to Arjuna. As Krishna himself says he is had the quality of all 5 Pandavas. If Arjuna was superior to Karna, he would have killed Karna by fair means but this is not the case Krishna knew Arjuna cant kill Karna in a fair battle so he told him to kill him by going against the rules of the war.

This article has very little info about Karna, Also Karna is not Villain, please remove that from the article. This article does not justify many of the things with reliable sources, and this article needs lot of improvement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bops123 (talk • contribs)

Can you please be more specific, and can you please cite your sources for the requested change? Thanks, The Mighty Glen (talk) 09:49, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

@ The Mighty Glen, In the article it is mentioned "Karna was one of the greatest archers of the Mahabharat but far inferior than Arjuna" , This has to be removed orelse please show the original Mahabharat sources which says he is inferior to Arjuna. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bops123 (talk • contribs) 15:13, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

And what are the sources please for the assertion that one is superior to the other? And what does superior or inferior mean in this case? The Mighty Glen (talk) 15:33, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

@ The Mighty Glen: I am asking you the source since it is mentioned in the article show the source to justify that statement.

Well the sentence is both vague and unsourced so I've removed it from the lede. The Mighty Glen (talk) 15:52, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

@ The Mighty Glen: Thanks for the edit.

Under the section "Hostilities with the Pandavas" it is mentioned in the article that "Karna was a suitor for Draupadi at her Swayamvara. like most other contenders, he also failed to string the bow and got defeated in task". Below has been found in the same website which has been taken has primary source for this article and it shows the content is wrong, please go through the below link.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/iml/iml18.htm

In the above link it shows the statement "he also failed to string the bow and got defeated in task" is wrong. As per the link he strings the Bow successfully and he was not defeated by Arjuna and flee, Karna fell back, deeming it vain to oppose the power of a holy man.Hence please modify the section Hostilities with the Pandavas as per the link.

Also most of this article has been written based on http://www.sacred-texts.com and I feel entire article needs secondary sources to justify the content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bops123 (talk • contribs) 10:26, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm happy to help with reverting vandalism and prevent edit warring, but I don't have the expertise necessary for a content dispute like this. I think we should ask for help at WP:WikiProject Hinduism/Mythology. The Mighty Glen (talk) 10:47, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

.

@Bops123 why do you not read original Mahabharat before editing any Mahabharat related page. It is just a popular folklore that Draupadi stopped Karna from participating in Syamwara but in reality he was failed in Syamwara as per original Mahabharat. Adi parva-section 179(From most authentic Bori Mahabahrat) यत कर्ण शल्य परमुखैः पार्थिवैर लॊकविश्रुतैः       नानृतं बलवद्भिर हि धनुर्वेदा परायणैः   5 तत कथं तव अकृतास्त्रेण पराणतॊ दुर्बलीयसा       बटु मात्रेण शक्यं हि सज्यं कर्तुं धनुर दविजाः

http://sacred-texts.com/hin/mbs/mbs01179.htm

Word to word translation:-

यत = If

कर्ण = Karna

शल्य = Shalya

परमुखै : = foremost

पार्थिवै = King

लॊकविश्रुतैः = who are famous in the world

नानृतं = could not

बलवद्भिर = have great strength

धनुर्वेदा = archery

परायणैः = well versed

तत = that/ this

कथं = how

तव अकृतास्त्रेण = No knowledge of weapon

पराणतॊ = suceed

दुर्बलीयसा = weakling

बटु मात्रेण = Brahmana

शक्यं = can

साज्यं कर्तु धनुर = string the bow

दवीजा: = O Brahmanas

Misconception about the meaning of पार्थिवै :-

i). Proof from Sanskrit dictionary :-

पार्थिव = King

http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?direct=au&mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%B5

Cross reference :-

King = पार्थिव

http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?direct=au&mode=3&script=hk&tran_input=king

ENGLISH TRANSLATION:-

“O Brahmanas! If foremost of kings like Karna and Shalya, who are famous in the world, have great strength and are well versed in Dhanur Veda, could not string the bow, how can this weakling Brahmana, with no knowledge of weapons, succeed?

हे द्विजगण ! जो धनुष धनुर्वेद में पंडित, बलवान् , कर्ण और शल्य आदि लोको में प्रशंसित राजाओ के द्वारा नहीं झुकाया जा सका | अस्त्रविद्या को न जाननेवाले , शक्ति में दुर्बल एक बटु उस धनुष पर डोरी कैसे चढ़ा सकेगा

https://archive.org/stream/Mahabharata_with_Hindi_Translation_-_SD_Satwalekar/01%20Mahabharat%20Adi%20Parva%20-%20SD%20Satwalekar%201968#page/n914/mode/1up

SO PLEASE UPDATE YOUR PROPER KNOWLEDGE AND AFTER THIS YOU CAN EDIT ANY PAGE

Arjuna was superior than Karna because he defeated Karna multiple times in war( Virat war, 14th day of Kuru war, 14 night of Kuru war) but Karna never defeated Arjuna

First chapter of Mahabharat says that Karna is trunk of Passion(fury) and Arjuna is trunk of Dharma. So it clear that Karna was one of the main villains in Mahabharat Nangu karna (talk) 14:42, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

@Nangu Karna: As you have mentioned in this talk section you have edited 60% of this page and by doing so you have completely vandalized this article. You have put only one source throughout the article. Where are the the secondary sources to justify it?

And you have mentioned in this talk section "adding false story on wiki is not wrong", Nangu Sharma are you really serious? Do you know the wiki guidelines?? It is wrong to put false information in it. This is not your personal blog to put whatever you want , this is intended for public Learning.

It seems like you did not read my statement fully.You have taken all the content from the website "http://www.sacred-texts.com" . Below is the page from the very same website which you used as primary source and as per it Karna strings the bow successfully and you have mentioned he did not. Please go through the below link.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/iml/iml18.htm

And You have pasted the verses , in it where it is mentioned karna did not string the bow?

Also if you go throughout the link Karna was not defeated by Arjuna and flee, infact Karna fell back, deeming it is vain to oppose the power of a holy man.

Most of the article does not even have source link. Since you have edited 60% of the article, please justify your editing with by updating multiple source links. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bops123 (talk • contribs) 18:45, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

• Comment:sacred-texts.com is not a WP:RS and, from what I can see, is a WP:PRIMARY source. I've removed some of the places where it is a reference but someone needs to comb through the text and remove every entry and to check the cited content to see if it needs to be removed. --regentspark (comment) 23:27, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

@RegentsPark, I completely agree with your comment, Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bops123 (talk • contribs) 08:42, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

@Bops123 you said that in your verses, nowhere written that Karna could not string the bow

ARE YOU BLIND? My verses clearly says that "Karna could not string the bow"

2) And you are providing the proof from same Website(but not from unabridged versison of Mahabharat), if same website provides many version of Mahabharat including authentic and unauthentic, that does not mean all are authentic

Failure of Karna from another authentic version(from Rajagopalachari Mahabharat)

When Karna came forward, all the assemblage expected that he would be successful but he failed by just a hair's breadth and the string slid back flashing and the mighty bow jumped out of his hands like a thing of life. There was great clamor and angry talk, some even saying that it was an impossible test put up to shame the kings. Then all noises were hushed, for there arose from among the group of brahmanas a youth who advanced towards the bow.

http://en.krishnakosh.org/krishna/Mahabharata_-Rajagopalachari_55 साभार krishnakosh.org

3) i had edited 60% article of wikipedia but Wiki Admin reverted my edits, Also if adding false story on wiki is false then 60% article of Karna topic is wrong as per original Mahabharat

4) If Arjuna had not defeated Karna at Draupadi syamwara then why did Karna retreat from battle? Nangu karna (talk) 01:42, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

@ Nangu Karna, I think you are always drunk, you have pasted incomplete set of verses and claiming Karna did not string the bow. The link what I gave you is "unabridged" version only. Don't you see the click through buttons which says "Previous and Next" in the webpage. I paste the link again, please go through it and see yourself again.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/iml/iml18.htm

If you are not aware of Karna's greatness go through the below video in which Krishna speaks how great Karna is.It also has English subtitles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfTT4vcJGZk

Karna retreated because he did not want to fight a holy man(http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/iml/iml18.htm). Unlike Arjuna Karna was not only archer he was good in many other warfare skills. He had a Kavacha and Kundala which can protect him against any of the weapons even against the divine weapons.

I think you should do more research on Karna , watch the serial Suryaputra Karna and all the other serials on Mahabharata which is there in youtube, watch some movies on him, read some books and scholarly articles on him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bops123 (talk • contribs) 06:15, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Admins Intervention needed

I need Admins intervention on this, I want the user "Nangu karna" to be blocked. User Nangu karna is a Karna abuser, as his user name says, The word Nangu means "Naked or Nude" in Hindi. His user name giving the meaning "Naked Karna". It is clear by this that he is intended to abuse and defame Karna.

He has edited 60% of the content of the article without discussing on the talk and the content he put does not match with the content of the primary source of the article. He has degraded karna and shown him only on the negative side. He has completely vandalized the entire article, and there are no secondary sources in the article. As "regentspark" has commented "http://www.sacred-texts.com" is not a reliable source.

In his conversation with "C.Fred" in the talk section user "Nangu karna" claims that "adding false story on wiki is not wrong", this this alone is enough reason to block him. Hence I request admins intervention on this dispute and block the user and revert the article to previous state before the edit of Nangu Karna or assign someone to reconstruct the damaged article.

I again request the admin to block the user "Nangu Karna" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bops123 (talk • contribs)

@Bop@123,I think that you are not able to understand what am i saying

1)First of all i never removed 60% article from Karna page, i said that 60% stuff on Karna page is false.

2) why do you not learn the diffrence between abridged version and unabridged version before commenting

http://audible.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4619/~/what-is-the-difference-between-abridged-and-unabridged-audiobooks%3F

YOU ARE GIVING THE PROOF FROM ABRIDGE VERSION(NOT FROM UNABRIDGE VERSION), Sacred-texts provides many version of Mahabharat including ABRIDGE and Unabridged... that does not mean all version are same

3) I gave the proof from Most authentic Mahabharat that Karna failed to string the bow in Syamwara but you rejected Bori Mahabharat and said that it is false

Know about Bori Mahabharat

Www.bori.ac.in

4) you even rejected C.Rajagolachari version... do you even know who was C. Rajgopalachari Nangu karna (talk) 08:50, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Civility

I ask all editors involved in this discussion to confine their remarks to WP:CIVIL discussion of how best to improve the article, and refrain from making personal attacks on other editors. Thank you. The Mighty Glen (talk) 11:04, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Digvijaya of Karna

Karna's Digvijaya Yatra is a campaign done by Karna , conquering the entire world in all directions , inorder to establish the supremacy of King Duryodhana for the completion of his Vaishnava Sacrifice.

Soon after pandavas exile to forest , King Duryodhana wanted to perform a Rajasuya Sacrifice, similar to that of Yudhishtira had performed while he was the king of Indraprasta. But some vaidik Brahmans and scholors said that , Duryodhana had no right to perform Rajasuya , since his father Dhritharashtra and elder brother Yudhishtira is alive . After hearing this , Duryodhana became totally disappointed and in a great confusion . He repeatedly asked vedic scholors , is there anyway for him to become equal to Yudhishtira in prowess and dignity in heaven. Scholors sujjest him to perform the Vaishnava sacrifice , which is equivalent to Rajasuya in all aspects , that Duryodhana can perform. But there arise a big problem of scarcity of wealth. Inorder to perform this sacrifice ,it requires a huge quantity of wealth that should be obtained by conquering all other nations and put them under subjection.Only a king of superior power can do such a sacrifice .Since it is not easy to conquer all the whole world within a period of the sacrifice. Only a superhuman power can do such a task . Duryodhana again get disappointed and confused.

At that time , Karna of greater prowess came there and consoled the king . He lifted his Vijaya Bow and give word to him that , he will conquer the whole world for King Duryodhana make him complete his Vaishnava Yajna without any interruption. Duryodhana became happy and allowed Karna to do such a herculian task. After giving gifts to Brahmanas, Karna started his Digvijaya Yatra towards North-East. At first Karna attacked Drupada , who was the closest relative of Pandavas. After a strong conflict , Karna defeated King Drupada and his son Dhrishtadyumna and brought them under subjection.Karna forcefully made Drupada to contribute silver , gold and gems as tribute.Then he travelled towards North. Karna defeated Kings in the north and defeated Bhagadatha of great prowess. After aquiring a huge quantity of wealth as tribute from those kings, Karna proceeded towards Himalaya. He conquered kings in the valleys of Himalayas and defeated the Kings of Nepal.After descending Himalaya , Karna of great prowess conquered Anga, Vanga, Kalinga, Sundika, Midhila, Magadha, Karkakhanda, Avasheera,Ayodhya,Ahikshethra etc. After conquering the east , Karna defeated the kings of Kosala, Tripura, Vatsabhumi,murthikavathi etc and acquired a huge quantity of wealth as tributes from those kings. After defeating Rukmi , Karna proceeded towards South. He conquered Pandya, Kerala, Shrisaila, Neela, venu kingdoms . Then he defeated the son of Sishupala of greater prowess. Afterthat , Karna proceeded towards west. He defeated Yavanas, Barbarians, Mlechas, Kings in the forest, kings in western mountains , The Rohithakas, The Agneyas, The Bhadras, Malavas etc. After defeating the whole world , Karna made Duryodhana the emporer of the planet. [Mahabharatha, Vanaparva, Chaper 253 & 254].

References

Karna's Digvijaya according to BORI Critical Edition Mahabharata

According to BORI Critical Edition of Mahabharatha, Karna's Digvijaya is an interpolation.BORI removed it from Vana Parva in their Critical Edition of Mahabharatha. But if we read BORI CE carefully , we can see some important narrations of Karna's digvijaya by Bhimshma, Dhritharashtra, Narada etc in more than over 7 places. Thus it is sure that , Karna's Digvijaya was not an interpolation , but a really happened one.Here are some examples.

According to BORI Critical Edition Mahabharatha, Dronaparva, chaper 4, Slogans 4,5,6,7 Bhishma says , Oh Karna , you went to mountains and conquered Nagnajith and other kings. You had conquered Ambashta, Videhas, and Gandharas. You had defeated Kiratas in the valleys of Himalayas, who are cruel in the battle and made them under Duryodhana. Like that , you had won so many other kings for the prosperity of Duryodhana.

According to BORI Critical Edition Mahabharatha, Karnaparva, chaper 5, Slogans 18 , 19 ,20 King Dhritharashtra says , That hero Karna had defeated the most powerfull kings such as Gandharas, Madrakas, Malsyas, Trigarthas, Angas, shakas, Panchalas, Videhas, Kulindas, King of Kashi, Kosala,Suhmas, Pundras, Nishadas, Vanga, Keechakas, Kingdom of Vatsa, Kalinga , Ashmakas, Rishikas etc , for his friend , who were most powerfull and not easy to win.

According to BORI Critical Edition Mahabharatha, Karnaparva, chaper 5, Slogan 57 King Dhritharashtra says , Inorder to increase the prosperity of Duryodhana , Karna had conquered the entire world . Then how he got defeated by pandavas?

Considering these slogans from BORI Critical Edition Mahabharatha, it is clear that Digvijaya of Karna is not an interpolation , but a really happened one .

References

Number of Akshauhinis destroyed by Karna

Karna destroyed One and a half (1.5)Akshauhinis of Pandavas in a single day

According to Karna Parva , Chapter 5, Sanjaya says to King Dhritharashtra that , Karna had slaughtered the half of remaining Akshauhinis of Pandavas that had left by Bhishma and Drona.

According to Ashwamedha Parva , Chapter 60 , Bhagavan Krishna says to his father Vasudeva that , there remained 3 Akshauhinis for Pandavas , when Karna was crowned as Army chief in 16-th day of war.

When Karna became Army chief , there remained 3 Akshauhinis for Pandavas. So, It is clear that Karna Slaughtered One and a Half (1.5) Akshauhinis on Pandava side in a single day .

NB: But actually this is not the number . The total number of warriors killed in Kurukshethra war was about 166 Crores and twenty thousand (1660020000), according to the words of Yudhishtira to Dhritharashtra. This is narrated in Stree Parva Chaper 26 . This is because , so many other persons , who are not human also , participated in Kurukshethra war. There were so many werstern warriors, demons like Rakshasas etc Participated in that war . That is why, the number became 1660020000. In Ghatolkacha badha Parva in Drona Parva , It is narrated that Karna killed over 100 Akashauhinis of powerfull demons (Rakshasas) , who were the warriors in Ghatolkacha's Army. Then the number will reach to 101.5 Akshauhinis.