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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 140.203.12.3 (talk) at 15:57, 10 April 2018 (→‎Orkney Name Translation). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Good articleOrkney has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Good topic starOrkney is part of the Islands of Scotland series, a good topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
February 15, 2010Good article nomineeListed
June 23, 2011Featured topic candidatePromoted
Current status: Good article
This article was improved during a Scottish Islands Collaboration of the Month in 2008-9

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Lock article in run up to and aftermath of Scottish independence vote

As hard as it might be for people to imagine, the existence of Orkney as fundamentally part of Scotland is about to become incredibly politicised due to the Scottish independence debate. I strongly advocate locking the article until well after the terms of separation are settled to avoid Wikipedia being used as a political football. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.57.163 (talk) 04:02, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Population

I've always found it difficult to follow trends from a column of numbers, and I'm probably not the only one. So I made a graph and added it to §Overview of population trends. I couldn't figure out how to get it placed nicely in wikicode, or in the wikitable that the numbers are already in, so I used plain HTML, which seems to have worked properly. --Thnidu (talk) 04:18, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Video

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Orkney Name Translation

No justification has ever been made for having a Scots Gaelic translation for Orkney placed in a prominent position on English language wiki page for Orkney. This gives a misleading impression that Scots Gaelic has had significant presence in Orkney and is spoken in Orkney.

Original addition: (cur | prev) 07:48, 18 March 2007‎ Ronline (talk | contribs)‎ . . (37,958 bytes) (+14)‎ . . (added official gaelic name) (undo)

Several times this edit has been removed (with justification) by a number of users and several times it has been re-instated without justification.

The Norse translation is a direct etymological precursor of the current name and therefore is deserving of the prominent position. This also reflects the Norse heritage of the Islands.

I don't really want to have a continual edit battle over this point but I do believe common sense should prevail rather than ideology. There is no evidence that Arcaibh has ever been used within or out-with Orkney in its early history. The etymology section gives a clear picture of the current name and other names used prior to the Norse settlement (which does not include Arcaibh, a modern Scots Gaelic interpretation).

There is an ideal wikipedia site for a modern Scots Gaelic translation of the name Orkney and that is the Scots Gaelic wikipedia page for Orkney. Located here https://gd.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcaibh.

The proposal is to remove Arcaibh from the prominent position. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.198.190.54 (talk) 17:02, 3 April 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]

  • Hi, user above does seem to have a point. This seems more appropriate for the other language Wiki page recommended. It is unclear what motivation Dr Chris Williams of the Glasgow University has as to why he wishes to force the issue. Looking at previous IP addresses it seems that the other unsigned additions of this have been made from a computer located at the University of Glasgow. This seems very strange. - David C, 3rd April 2018 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.253.192.31 (talk) 19:51, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have to agree with Dr Chris Williams and the other users in adding the Gaelic name. Scotland is officially a bilingual country, even if Orkney as an area is not. Many other countries which are bilingual, for example English wikipedia articles relating to Canada prominently feature the French name for a predominantly English speaking part of the country. For example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Columbia. In the name of consistency and respecting the bilingual nature of Scotland it is only right to include the Gaelic name. Cjduffy (talk) 17:47, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with motion to remove. Scotland is not the same as Canada. Canada has a significant percentage of people speaking French. In any case there are many places in Canada that only list an English name so the argument for consistency is debunked. Scots Gaelic name for Orkney has never been used by anyone to a significant degree. Scotland is not recognised as bilingual, it is recognised as multilingual with Gaelic being officially described as a minority language. There are far more speakers of Scots than Scots Gaelic. Using the same flawed logic as before, we should also have the Scots names too. It doesn't seem right to have a minority language being imposed on place names where it was never spoken. It smacks of cultural whitewash. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.253.234.111 (talk) 20:13, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Gaelic is not a minority language. It is a language legally recognised in Scotland as enjoying equal status with English as of 2005.
And if you want to talk about cultural whitewash, let's talk about you whitewashing the Norse-Gaelic cultural interface. First, say hello to Harald Maddadsson, Jarl of Orkney... or, as he might have been called in his father the Mormaer of Atholl's Gaelic-speaking court, Aralt mac Mataid, Mormaer of Innse Orc. And Malise V, Earl of Strathearn... and Orkney. A Gael.
The Sinclairs were a clan with very close connections to northern Scotland. Their lands in Caithness at this same time were becoming increasingly Gaelic speaking. There is no reason to believe none of them were capable of Gaelic speech either.
You are erasing a rich history of Gaelic and Norse cultural interface for your hatred of Gaelic. And that bigotry belongs in neither Wikipedia nor Scotland. 80.2.184.162 (talk) 22:31, 7 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to offer some clarifications to the most recent user supporting the motion to remove. Indeed areas of Canada have far more French speakers but sticking with the example I gave of British Columbia, only 1.4% of people are listed as native French Speakers, so it very much is a minority language there but yet it is still prominently listed because the French is an officially recognised name with the same status as the English. This is the case with Gaelic in Scotland as per the 2005 legislation and therefore it should be included. As for other articles not providing a French name in the case of Canada this is because there is not a French name to use in the first instance in almost all cases (checking the French wikipedia entry will confirm this).
To draw on other examples across Wikipedia of Gaelic being included prominently on the article one only need look at the entries for railway stations in Scotland, they all prominently include the Gaelic despite some servicing areas with little or no Gaelic speakers. This is a matter of respecting that the languages have equal standing in Scotland regardless of how widely spoken they are.
On your point about Scots that is a debate for another perhaps for another time, but I must say that the logic isn't flawed, although I don't believe that there is a Scots translation if there is it should be included as Scots is also recognised as official language of Scotland. This comes back to the earlier point made about the existence or otherwise of a translation. Finally I have to dispute your claim of a cultural whitewash, firstly a whitewash means to cover or hide information adding a language that is a small part of the history of Orkney does not do anything to detract from the rest of its culture, and secondly as the above user makes clear in rather strong terms there is Gaelic history in Orkney and that to omit that surely would be the true whitewash. Cjduffy (talk) 00:57, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think we need to cool the emotions here. I don't think any of the users here have a hatred towards Gaelic and I think an apology is in order if any offence has been caused. It is understood that Gaelic has suffered from renaming crimes quite badly in the past and I personally support the reinstatement of the use of historically relevant place names throughout Scotland - which I concede cover a great deal of names on the Scottish Mainland. However, and this is not meant to cause offence, the point still stands that no history is being erased as there is no Gaelic history in Orkney as a significant cultural influence. To include the Gaelic title is to say that Gaelic is historically significant within the district. Which it is not. Wikipedia is supposed to give readers a truthful impression of the subject matter. As mentioned earlier, including the Scots Gaelic name in such a position is misleading as it gives newcomers to the topic an impression that the Gaelic name is somehow relevant historically or etymologically. The Gaelic name is a new incarnation and therefore based on all that has been said, I maintain that is should be respectfully moved to a less prominent position.
However, as a peace offering, may it be suggested that it is described in an 'other names' table within the etymology section. It would be very informative, and interesting to have a table showing the many names, their period of use and origin. This would give credit that there is strong Gaelic culture neighbouring Orkney and Caithness that named the isles independently but also give a clear picture on thier relevance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.255.149.119 (talk) 06:59, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It would be very helpful if editors stopped edit warring about this issue and (as some are doing) attempted to reach some sort of consensus. Secondly, I suggest that all concerned read MOS:FORLANG. Ben MacDui 10:23, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have been to Orkney many times over the last 30 years. I also have family there. There are no dual language signs and everyone that I have spoken to over the years is adamant that Gaelic is not part of thier culture. I agree to exclude the Gaelic translation as it conveys something that isn't accurate. Having it this way will represent the local signage as well as local and national government literature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.252.129.132 (talk) 13:27, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On balance, I would tend to side with excluding it. In Galway we have dual language signs in Irish and English because it's direct part of our heritage and it definitely seems that that doesn't apply to the Isles of Orkney. I think the Wiki page needs to reflect that. We need to respect the individuality of places rather than overlooking the truthful variety that exists.

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