Talk:Murder of Seth Rich

More on Fox News lawsuit

Judge Rejects Suit by Parents of Slain Democratic Staffer]

Also dismissed was a related suit by private investigator Rod Wheeler. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:42, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Fox News wasn't "accused" of promoting conspiracy theories

Fox News DID promote Seth Rich conspiracy theories per countless RS. An editor just inserted WP:WEASEL text that the network was "accused" of doing so.[1] This edit followed an edit which sought to whitewash Fox News' role in promoting the conspiracy theories out of the lede. I reverted the first edit, but I'm now prevented by 1RR from reverting the other edit. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:24, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Why are lying intelligence agencies considered credible and Assange is not

US intelligence falsified WMD to get US into Iraq, organized fake testimony about Iraqi soldiers killing babies in incubators, lied to congress about mass surveillance, funded Islamist extremists. Assange has never been proven guilty of spreading fake documents. If you are gonna turn Wikipedia into Pravda do it less obviously.

Lede

Seth Conrad Rich (January 3, 1989 – July 10, 2016) was an American employee of the Democratic National Committee (DNC) who was fatally shot in the Bloomingdale neighborhood of Washington, D.C.[1][2][3]

That's the lede to a biography, not to an event, and certainly doesn't summarize what the article is about. So, how about a change?--Calton | Talk 09:08, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Calton makes a good point. The lead (I am old school and refuse to use that newfangled spelling -- get off my lawn, you damn kids!) should be in the form of an event. how about:

"The murder of Seth Rich occurred on Sunday, July 10, 2016, at 4:20 a.m. in the Bloomingdale neighborhood of Washington, D.C. Rich died from two shots to the back. Rich was an employee of the Democratic National Committee (DNC)."

That's just off the top of my head and could be improved. in particular, I lost the middle name, which is undesirable. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:02, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

I like Guy's version. There's only one problem: "Lede" is not a particularly new term, dating back to the 50's, when it was used to differentiate the lead paragraph from the leading. It doesn't make one whit of difference on WP which spelling you use, but I actually worked a summer in print as a teen, and learned to spell it like that from there. ;) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:34, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

It appears that "lede" was never used to differentiate the lead paragraph from the leading. It's fake retro-nostalgia.

• From Merriam Webster:[2] "Although evidence dates the spelling to the 1970s, we didn't enter lede in our dictionaries until 2008. For much of that time, it was mostly kept under wraps as in-house newsroom jargon."

• From Wictionary:[3] "Usage seems mostly confined to the U.S. Originally only journalistic usage that is now so common in general US English that it is no longer labeled as jargon by major US dictionaries such as Merriam-Webster and American Heritage. Noted as 'sometimes spelled' in 1959, 'often spelled' in 1969, and asserted in the 1979 reprint of a 1974 book (see Citations page). In 1990, William Safire was still able to say that 'lede' was jargon not listed in regular dictionaries."

• From Howard Owens:[4][5] "Early in my career somebody I obviously respected — can’t remember who now — told me the correct newspaper spelling of the opening of a newspaper story is 'lede.' There’s lot of romanticism and nostalgia in the newspaper industry for 'lede'... Today, our collection [of old journalism books] exceeds 400 titles. About 100 of the best of them are sitting at the moment immediately to my left. Some years ago, researching the evolution of 'objective journalism,' I cracked open many of these old books, and something struck me — in none of these old books did any author spell the word 'lede.' They all spell it 'lead.' It was then I realized, there is no historic basis for the spelling of a lead as 'lede.' 'Lede' is an invention of linotype romanticists, not something used in newsrooms of the linotype era. It’s really emblematic of today’s print nostalgia, too — like Desi and Lucy sleeping in separate beds — a longing for an America that never was, or wasn’t quite what you thought it was."

Also see Lead vs. lede and tradition vs. substance. [6] --Guy Macon (talk) 02:54, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Our article claims the oldest use was in '59, which matches what I was told way back when (my teen years were in the '90's). But apparently, both were wrong. I'm off to make a certain edit, but thanks for looking that up! ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:20, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Just for the record, I originally picked up the term "lede" (and "graf") from a couple of college journalism classes in the late 80s -- and which I've used since then -- so being in use for at least 40 years is no-way "newfangled" as far as I'm concerned. I have to say, it's a strange hill to want to die on.

Meanwhile: the lede for this article? --Calton | Talk 03:46, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Support: "The murder of Seth Rich occurred on Sunday, July 10, 2016, at 4:20 a.m. in the Bloomingdale neighborhood of Washington, D.C. Rich died from two shots to the back. Rich was an employee of the Democratic National Committee (DNC)." StreetSign (talk) 11:43, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Nope. This is about a crime: what does Rich having been an employee of a particular organization have to do with anything? --Calton | Talk 02:03, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Although I had that in my original top-of-my-head proposal above, now that you bring it up, where he was employed is irrelevant. I say take it out. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:32, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

What facts belong in the article is determined by what reliable sources decide is relevant, per Balancing aspects. Incidentally, biographical information about crime victims is always included in crime stories, whether or not it was known by the perpetrator[s]. Otherwise, I agree with the change in phrasing. I don't see though why we should mention he was an American, since the assumption is that people born in and living in the U.S. are U.S. citizens. TFD (talk) 13:31, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

What facts belong in the article is determined by what reliable sources decide is relevant...

That's nice. Also irrelevant, since what's being discussed is the lede, not the article overall. --Calton | Talk 14:13, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

News media routinely say that Seth Rich was employed by the DNC when they first mention him. See for example, the first sentence in this recent article from CBS: "A judge in the Southern District of New York dismissed a lawsuit against Fox News by parents of murdered Democratic National Committee employee Seth Rich...."[7] Neutrality requires us to use the same emphasis on facts as reliable sources. TFD (talk) 16:23, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Proposal

Per the lengthy requested move discussion, and per WP:ONEWAY, I propose creating a new, separate article about the conspiracy theories specifically. I have not prepared a title for the article, but it should contain "conspiracy theories". wumbolo ^^^ 20:56, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

I do not see the point. The "conspiracy theories" are an important part of the subject and should be mentioned here. Even the Assassination of John F. Kennedy has a conspiracies section and that case was conclusively solved. On the other hand, there is very little detail about these theories in reliable sources, so it would be hard to expand the material. TFD (talk) 23:06, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

That article has only three paragraphs on conspiracy theories. See WP:ONEWAY. wumbolo ^^^ 00:49, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

WP:ONEWAY says nothing about whether we should break conspiracy theories off into their own articles. I do not support this, because it's really only the conspiracy theories that made this event notable. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:02, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

No. The only reason this article exists is because of the conspiracy theories. --Calton | Talk 07:25, 17 August 2018 (UTC)