Talk:Venezuela

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Imperialist attacks on Venezuela

As far as I can tell, the article does not mention the role of the United States in leading attempts to damage and destabilize Venezuela due to the country not adhering to neo-liberal economics, while it approaches other aspects of recent problems in the country. This view has been stated in mainstream publications, by figures such as former London mayor, Ken Livingstone. This includes a recent attempt to stir up opposition to Venezuela at the UN. Given the baneful and damaging history of US imperialism in Latin America (ie - Operation Condor, support of Chicago School-proxy Pinochet, etc), I think we need to highlight this latest attempt at subversion in the article. Claíomh Solais (talk) 23:26, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

  I agree this is a suspicious omission. 213.150.217.174 (talk) 09:49, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Relations with Guyana

Some maps (as found by google images) seem to indicate Venezuelan claims on western Guyana but I don't find any information on this, at least not in the foreign relations section.150.227.15.253 (talk) 09:34, 13 December 2017 (UTC) Link to Guayana Esequiba article added to the foreign relations section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.227.15.253 (talk) 09:54, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

There is some mention of the border dispute in the context of the 1890s, but nothing about its modern status. Does Venezuela still claim a portion of Guyana? If so, and if the claim is any more than symbolic, that would seem to merit further discussion in the article, as the anonymous IP suggests. J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 20:47, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, Venezuela still claims Guayana_Esequiba.XavierGreen (talk) 13:16, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Flag version to display in the Infobox

Hello,
I noticed there has been a content dispute recently over which version of the flag to use.
The version I introduced was "Flag of Venezuela.svg" which was reverted to "Flag of Venezuela (state).svg" citing the reason that we should not revert it to the Pre-Chavez flag.

I would like to remind editors that the version without the seal is not the Pre-Chavez flag.
Before Chavez, the national flag had seven stars on it.
After Chavez, the national flag had eight stars on it.

"Flag of Venezuela.svg" is not the Pre-Chavez flag, and the version without the seal is still the primary version, see Flag of Venezuela.
Please respond if you have any concerns. Thank you for your understanding.
Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 22:35, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

While the non-state version indeed is in official use, the state-version currently seems to be the most widely used one. I think the state-version should remain. Tiberius Jarsve (talk) 22:46, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

The state-version is more widely used? In what way? I'd really like some statistics on that. The version without the seal is more widely used within Wikipedia than the version with the seal, there's fewer results with the seal on Google (not that that's necessarily important), and the civil flag is used as the national flag. I'd like it if we can get real statistics on the most widely used version of the flag, because the version without the seal is what I see most often by far. Not only that, the Venezuelan Government Website does not use the version with the seal. Most websites that reference the flag of Venezuela also do not use the version with the seal, such as (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6). This is a matter of accuracy, and if you can't find anything to suggest that the most common version of the flag of Venezuela is the version with the seal, then that would compromise accuracy in favour of what you feel is the more widely used version. Because the original argument cited by you to use the version with the seal was that the version without the seal was the pre-Chavez flag (which is incorrect) and that the version without the seal no longer holds the same legal status (which is also incorrect) and the only remaining argument is an unsourced claim that it's more common, I don't feel that you've put forward a rationale. For that reason, I will be changing the infobox to "Flag of Venezuela.svg" and the burden of proof is now on the unsubstantiated rationale for keeping the seal. It is neither the pre-Chavez flag nor unofficial, but it's also neither more widely used on Wikipedia nor on Venezuelan government websites nor in search results; this would be comparable to saying we should switch the Denmark infobox to use the Splitflag state flag and ensign version because it's used in state government buildings. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 04:41, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

The pre-Chavez version is notably a symbol of the opposition groups in Venezuela. However WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS applies to such edits. As a neutral source we should be using whatever is currently the official flag. Simonm223 (talk) 12:59, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Simonm223 (talk · contribs) Good faith reply, but also a very uninformed reply. We're not talking about the Pre-Chavez flag. Chavez added an 8th star where there used to be only 7. We're not discussing going back to the version with only 7. We're discussing whether the Civil flag or the State flag is the primary version of the national flag. Because this response seemed to be misguided, it is to be discounted as well. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 06:20, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

I realised my mistake which is why I didn't do any further reverts or attempt to defend that position on talk. Carry on. Simonm223 (talk) 10:06, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

The Primary version of the flag should be used in the infobox, we have had discussion about this before on this talk page. The official version of the flag, is the one with 8 stars and the coat of arms in corner. In fact, when the new flag was first revealed by Chavez, the version flown has the coat of arms on it. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4800202.stm . Also, the IOC, CIA, OAS, and United Nations all use the version with the Coat of Arms. Jp16103 14:28, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Also, if you look through the Venezuelan government website, there is a page with general information about the country. On this page, there is a section called Bandera Nacional with a picture that clearly shows the version of the flag with the symbol. http://www.gobiernoenlinea.ve/home/venezuela.dot Jp16103 14:34, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Good faith, and if they were true these points would be good as well. Unfortunately, some of these statements are untrue or otherwise problematic.

• This is the homepage of the Venezuelan government website, and it clearly uses the civil flag.
• The first reveal of the newly updated flag with an eighth star using the state version doesn't mean that the scope of the civil flag is any broader or narrower.
• No, the IOC doesn't use the state flag, quite the opposite is true. They use the civil flag.
• You are correct that the CIA World Factbook displays the state flag.
• The UN may use a version with the seal, but it's the Pre-Chavez version with only 7 stars. The flags of Afghanistan, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Mauritania, Nepal, Turkmenistan, and Ukraine are also wrong in one or more ways.

In short, though it was in good faith that you made these arguments, most of them fall under scrutiny. For the time being, I will switch back to the civil flag. What we really need is confirmation that the government status of the state emblem surpasses the civil flag. Until we can get that, we should go with what the official government website of Venezuela uses, which is the civil flag. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 06:20, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

No, check again, scroll to the bottom of the Venezuelan state website that I posted, that clearly is the flag with the symbol. The olympic website is wrong, see here, notice what flag Maduro is waving, also, the flag the team had in Rio. As for the United Nations, I can't find a clear picture of it, but they do use the flag with the symbol, see this item from their store. Until I can find a more reputable picture of the UN one, that can suffice for now, but I do recall the flag flying at the UN is the one with the symbol on it. Also, the flag flown at embassies to represent Venezuela is the flag with the symbol. Britannica also uses the flag with the symbol.

When Chavez changed the flag in '06, the law was amended to reflect the new changes to the flag. The law clearly states that the national flag has the coat of arms on it.

"La Bandera Nacional se inspira en la que adoptó el Congreso de la República en 1811. Está formada por los colores amarillo, azul y rojo, en franjas unidas, iguales y horizontales en el orden que queda expresado, de superior a inferior y, en el medio del azul, ocho estrellas blancas de cinco puntas, colocadas en arco de círculo con la convexidad hacia arriba. La Bandera Nacional que usen la Presidencia de la República y la Fuerza Armada Nacional, así como la que se enarbole en los edificios públicos nacionales, estadales y municipales, deberá llevar el Escudo de Armas de la República Bolivariana de Venezuela en el extremo de la franja amarilla cercano al asta. La Bandera Nacional usada por la Marina Mercante sólo llevará las ocho estrellas. "

"The National Flag is inspired by the one adopted by the Congress of the Republic in 1811. It is formed by the colors yellow, blue and red, in united, equal and horizontal stripes in the order that is expressed, from superior to inferior and , in the middle of the blue, eight white stars of five points, placed in arc of circle with the convexity upwards. The National Flag used by the Presidency of the Republic and the National Armed Force, as well as the one that is flying in national, state and municipal public buildings, must carry the Coat of Arms of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela at the end of the strip yellow near the pole. The National Flag used by the Merchant Navy will only carry the eight stars."

Generally, state flag supersedes the civil flag on Wikipedia, the flags on that page show examples of the differences between Civil and State flags. Jp16103 16:28, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Article reads as if written by CIA/U.S. State Dept

This article is so laughably biased in a reactionary right wing pro-U.S. government vein as to utterly lack any accuracy or balance. As another person has mentioned below, there is not a single entry in the article that details the ongoing U.S. government sabotage and interference in Venezuelan elections, economy, and politics. Right now some of the most extreme sanctions have been implemented by the Obama and Trump regimes totally crippling the Venezuelan economy. But does this crap Wiki entry mention anything about these crushing sanctions when bitching about how bad their economy is? No! Nothing. It is obvious that the US government is trying to do another one of their 'regime change' operations in Venezuela through sanctions to force an internal coup; but Wikipedia is so infested with State Dept trolls that they won't allow these important basic facts to be discussed here. The whole article seems like it was written by a U.S. State Dept employee. Probably not a single actual Venezuelan worked on it. Total crap hit piece. Disgraceful for rubbish such as this to be pawned off as "encyclopedic". This came directly from U.S. Ministry of Propaganda :-( — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deschutes Maple (talk • contribs) 14:33, 09 September 2018 (UTC)