Talk:Charles Manson

An event in this article is a March 29 selected anniversary (may be in HTML comment)

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Mushroomhead Song

I never feel right editing the main page, but maybe someone would think about adding Mushroomhead's (best) song "Bwomp" to the "Musical influence" section, because it does feature the line "twist the 4-5 cap and understand that if it were up to me I'd free Charles Manson"?

LGBT issue

Manson having raped another boy in reform school does not necessarily make him gay or bisexual, and the apparent lack of any other evidence to suggest that he was would seem to disqualify him from the "LGBT criminals" category. Treybien 15:44 27 October 2006 (UTC).

Why was Manson in jail for most of his adult life?

The article just says that he was, and that he was then released, and then involved in the murders.Seriously, he was an evil, evil man, and anyone disagreeing will delete this. Dont be the one to delete it, because then you may reveal yourself to be the type of person who believes Charles Manson was a good person. Thank-you. Why was he in prison in the first place? It sort of looks like he was in prison for the murders, before they were comitted. Needs explanation by someone who knows something about this (I'd never heard of Manson. Not related to Marilyn Manson, is he?). CGS 22:52 26 Jul 2003 (UTC).

He's related to Marilyn Manson in name only. Marilyn Manson constructed his name based on Manson's (and Marilyn Monroe's). —Frecklefoot 19:32, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC) Marilyn Manson is a band.

Manson was in jail before the murders for things along the lines of theft and arson. You can find good information on his life at http://www.crimelibrary.com

OgniemIMieczem - 8:40 AM January 25, 2005. Don't give him the stick.

Whatchu talkin' bout Willis?

The article contains an explanation of his (middle) name change from Milles to Willis interpreted as "Charles Will Is Man's Son." Could this perhaps simply be a connection to the mother of his firstborn (Rosalie Willis)? What was his original intention? I notice the explanation is not sited so perhaps this is an area in need of attention.Gabenowicki 01:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Walnut Hills?

I was intrigued when it said that he went to Walnut Hills high school as my mother went there and my cousin is going there. They knew nothing of his attending there and my cousin was even convinced that he did not attend. I will edit this once I get some more details on the matter.

Roman Polanski Pregnant?

Under 'The Killings' the article states that a man (film director Roman Polanski) was eight months pregnant at the time of Sharon Tate's murder. Perhaps someone could edit the entry to correect this impossibility. --- Desertphile

done - Rossrs 22:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Roman Polanski wasn't pregnant. His wife, Sharon Tate was. She was one of five people murdered by Charles Manson at a home she and her husband had rented. I'm currently doing a report on him.

Thanks for the clarification. Maybe I should say this again... I fixed this..... in September. So who are you doing the report on? Polanski? Manson? Rossrs 07:46, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Where's the Neutrality?

Repeating a simplified, shortened version of Bugliosi's book _Helter Skelter_ is hardly neutral in POV; Bugliosi, remember was the prosecutor, and his case was based almost completely on the State's evidence testimony of drug-addled Susan Atkins. ("State's evidence", for non-Americans, is the term used here for someone testifying against an alleged accomplice to get a lighter sentence, like if you and I were charged with robbing a store, and I made a deal to help the prosecutor by saying you held the gun -- so you should be punished worse than me.)

I'm not saying Charlie Manson was a saint, or innocent, or a misunderstood kid who never got enough hugs, only that this article as written is not neutral.

David <the@iglou.com>

Feel free to be bold and update it to make the text more neutral! Tuf-Kat 04:23, Jan 27, 2004 (UTC)

MANSON REALITY:

For those interested in Manson, I suggest you read "Manson in His Own Words," by Nuel Emmons, a guy Manson did time with. I hardly attest that it is 100% reliable, but it offers an alternative view of things from "Helter Skelter." Helter Skelter was pretty much an invention of Bugliosi's, because he needed a motive to aid in prosecuting Manson---the jury had to believe Manson had a reason for ordering the killings. Don't get me wrong, Manson was almost certainly guilty of conspiracy to commit murder, and accessory before and after the fact, and number of other things, but that doesn't mean he necessarily got a fair trial. He'll die in prison, one way or another---there's been far too much publicity for him to ever be released. Much of what you hear about Manson & the Family is crap, but then again, much of what comes out of Manson's mouth is crap, too: jailhouse gibberish. He was older than the kids at the ranch, he took advantage of them, and since most of them had the brains of hamsters and were stoned on top of it, he went on a little ego trip to see how far he could get them to go. It's a prison mentality, a power thing. The 60s were conducive to radical ways of thinking. While Manson wasn't a hippie, the kids he surrounded himself with and manipulated were. He said once in an interview with Geraldo, "I'm Jesus Christ, whether you want to accept it or not, I don't care." He has also denied ever saying this. Listen to an interview with Manson sometime, and it's obvious he wants to maintain his image as mystical guru, but it's also just as clear he's a pathetic little criminal and little more. How's that for neutral? -me

System of a down's ATWA

"System of a Down wrote the song ATWA on their Toxicity album about the media's viewpoints on Manson."
Where has the band stated what the song is about exactly? I have heard them say it is about Manson, but System of a Down do not generally like to give their meaning behind a song ("As band, we don't like limiting interpretations to our songs by defining them.") I will try to research this a little more myself and see what I can come up with. --nadavspi 03:50, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

All you need to do is read the lyrics and you'd have a general understanding about what it means. The song is a viewpoint from Manson himself; and in the end the song is about how if we focus on one part of a person (ie: Manson's madness) then we miss important parts, like his feelings on the enviornament (ATWA). I haven't found anything from the band but all you need to do is try to come up with your own impression, which is what bands want you to do. =) - [User:FireflyAngel|FireflyAngel] Jan 26, 2004 (UTC)

Don't know about Manson.

The link at the bottom goes to the page saying that Charles Manson claimed to be Jesus Christ, but on Manson's own page, it doesn't mention it. I'm confused as to how this Jesus Christ thing comes into it.

Well, I can't find the quote, but at some point in his life, he stated very strongly that he was anything but a hippie. And I think Parole is out of the question. No percent at all. --70.18.172.198 23:45, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Very often in video interviews Manson is asked about Jesus Christ and he responds by saying "I am Jesus Christ, every man is Jesus Christ" .... which is actually common Christian belief, that we are all God and God is all of us etc etc. I think the problem is that back when this story was huge and glamourized, reporters like Heraldo and such liked cutting out the last part and just using "I am Jesus Christ", which obviously glamourized his apparent insanity beyond what actually existed.

These beliefs are actually not "common" Christian belief. I think they are beliefs espoused by some Christian sects, but Christians more commonly believe that Christ is a separate being that inspires or spiritually inhabits Christians. Mainstream Christianity, in fact, holds it somewhat heretical when humans claim the perfection of deity. Applejuicefool 16:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Guns 'N Roses

Does anybody know the Guns 'N Roses song that was supposedly written by Manson? I'm a big fan of GnR and i would really like to know which song is this.

The song is called "Look at Your Game, Girl" from "The Spaghetti Incident?" and it was on Manson's Lies.--Grain king 01:45, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What's the source for Mason's authorship of Used to Love Her?? I've never seen this attributed to anyone other than Guns n' Roses' members before. See www.allmusic.com, for example. Is someone making assumptions here?

Please cite sources

There are a number of weasel words and poor, and possibly incorrect, citing in this article. I've hopefully fixed one in /* "The Family" */ where it stated that Manson referred to the commune as the family (uncited). I changed this to "Bugliosi referred to as ..." (from Helter Skelter 1974 and the 25th Anniversary Edition Afterword © 1994 Vincent Bugliosi). There is a weak reference in Manson's court testimony: "... a lot could be cleared up and clarified to where everyone could understand exactly what the family was supposed to have been, ..." but later he implies other people are doing the referring: "Most of the people at the ranch that you call The Family ...", and other weaker sources deny Manson said this.

Furthermore the so-called Jesus quotation looks abridged, or maybe plain wrong, but I could not verify this as it's uncited and unreferenced. The best I found was from his testimony again: "I may have implied on several occasions to several different people that I may have been Jesus Christ, but I haven't decided yet what I am or who I am." -Wikibob | Talk 13:29, 2005 May 22 (UTC)

atwa.info

(copy, written after complaint at village pump)

I checked the link because I have become somewhat suspicious of what some people consider shocking. I agree with removing the link (note that two days ago, someone already removed the very same link from the external links section of the same article). The picture seems to be on the external site merely to offend people, and I don't see a need to support that by linking to the page. Also, the text on that site is very confused but indicates that the original Manson support page is gone. I went ahead and removed the link. Rl 17:23, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It was linked to because it used to be a very useful page detailing injustices done to Manson. Some of their complaints were quite reasonable, and despite the obvious bias, it wasa very useful page. I took a clue from them and added a link to an archive of the old site, something which already existed on the current atwa.info page. -- Harpalus

Beautiful People

In the "Media Influence" section it says that The Beautiful People is a song originally recorded by The Beatles, which is inocorrect. There is a song called Baby You're a Rich Man which has the lyrics "How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?" in it.

Joni Mitchell's "Same Situation"

Has Mitchell herself said that the line refers to Manson?

Here's the entire stanza:

Still I send up my prayer/Wondering where it had to go/With Heaven full of astronauts/And the Lord on Death Row

This is a reflection on the confusion of modern life. "The Lord on Death Row" is probably a reference to the phrase "God Is dead". This, of course, was a quote from Nietzsche, but Mitchell at the time was probably thinking more of the common usage of the phrase ever since it appeared on the cover of Time Magazine in 1966. drone5 00:41, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

As far as i can find, there is no reference to the song being about Manson. I'm going remove it until someone has actual evidence. --Manik52 14:16, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Highly complicated wording

Maybe it is just me, since I am not a native speaker of English, but the wording of these few sentences seems extremely complex to me. In short, I don't understand what it's saying. I'd appreciate if any of you could clarify it for me, although I would be even more happy to see it changed in the article.

This motive was substantially discredited during the penalty phase of the trial, where it became apparent that the "free Beausoleil" motive was contradicted by other testimony of the killers. Additionally, despite declaring they would die for Manson, the other accused claim to have waited until the main trial was over and the death penalty was being discussed, and then only on redirect, to introduce this as a motive. It was dismissed by the prosecution as an attempt to clear Manson by means of the other defendants taking the blame)

Thank you in advance --Mtu 21:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Learn English.

Problems with Opening Sentence

• Charles Milles Manson (born 12 November 1934) was the leader of a group of young followers of both sexes, known collectively as "The Family", in the late 1960s and early 1970s.

"Followers of both sexes" is ambiguous - it could be saying that Manson was the leader of a group of young bisexuals. I doubt this is the intended meaning (but anything's possible with Manson). I think it means the members of the group included both males and females. But what's the reason for stating this? Any group of people would include both sexes unless specified otherwise. So I'd remove "of both sexes" as unnecessarily specific, particularly so early in the article. But that leaves us with "Manson was the leader of a group of young followers ...". Well, obviously, any leader is a leader of followers. So remove "of young followers". Now we have "Manson was the leader of a group known collectively as The Family". Still a problem. "Collectively" is tautological in relation to group, since a group is by its very nature collective. Remove "collectively". Does anybody have a problem with:

• Charles Milles Manson (born 12 November 1934) was the leader of a group known as "The Family", in the late 1960s and early 1970s.?

It doesn't tell you anything about what the group was all about, but neither did the previous version. I think it works better as an introductory sentence to a long article about a guy who's very hard to label, and where all the details are spelled out. And it's shorter and more to the point. JackofOz 01:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I think a very simple opening sentence is appropriate. If you type in Charles Manson in the hope to learn about him, you better get ready to read for a few hours, and watch a few hours of interviews. You can't explain this shit in an opening paragraph.

Birth date

The birthdate is given as November 14, but should be November 12. See http://www.charliemanson.com/timeline-1800-1959.htm Epicidiot 06:29, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Intercourse with male followers?

I reverted an edit claiming rumours that he had intercourse with his male followers. At first glance, it appears to be vandalism and I was almost ready to hit the rollback button, but I did some research into Charles Manson in the past, and I seem to remember this as either fact or rumour, originating from his experiences in prison as a teenager. However, I'm still reverting this edit because it was provided without a citation. This edit, especially because it mentions it as a rumour, definitely needs a citation. --Deathphoenix 22:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

John Gilmore's book about the Manson Family, "The Garbage People", and the 1971 documentary "Manson" both mention Manson having intercourse with his male followers (in the documentary, his followers admit it).

In his interview with Geraldo he admits that despite being in prison "Charlie still gets som lovin'" --Donnald 16:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Geraldo I think we can agree isn't a reliable source for information. He is the king of video edits and misquotes. If you are seriously going to add this in before many other rumours with far more evidence, you better have someone, even a few people, readily admit that they actually had sex with Manson. Not just some prison inmates or people that hate Manson saying that he "still gets lovin" as that is open to possible biases and even more, misinterpretation. Manson does get lovin', in the form of thousands of letters per week from fans, men and women, saying they love him etc etc.

In Helter Skelter his followers say he had sex with men and woman. The first thing he did with his followers was that they all had an orgy. He had everyone do EVERYTHING. He even went "down on a boy." when he was a teenager and in prison he had sex with a boy while holding a knive to his neck. This is all from Helter Skelter. Dont Blame me if its wrong.

'Letters from Manson'

I removed material that has been repeatedly posted to a large number of serial-killer articles in the last couple of days. It's probably *closer* to on-topic here than on most of the articles where it was spammed, and if a non-anonymous user who's looked at it feels it deserves inclusion in the External Links section, feel free to do so. I'm just unwilling to trust the original editor's judgement on that point, and have better things to do than register for the site to find out whether it was relevant to one of the many articles where it was spammed. --Calair 03:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Done account r3egistered and links reposted. It is exactly as the original poster says. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghost tracker d (talk • contribs)

Please do not spoof other members, Ghost tracker d, and please stop adding your spam to articles. EVula 16:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Ghost tracker d already knows that the link is spam and not allowed. He's been spamming it to several articles for weeks now and needs to be stopped. If he does not I will look into getting him banned as a chronic spammer and the site added to the blackhole list the prevents any page from being saved if it includes that URL. Bad behavior like this will not be rewarded, so you may as well give up spamming it before you make it worse on yourself. DreamGuy 19:30, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

personal testimony

I took the potentially large liberty of removing this section for a few reasons: a., we don't even know the publisher and it is supposedly a rare text anyway, b. the wording of it was very not NPOV, and c. beyond POV wording, the wording actually made me suspect a potential advertisement, although this is probably debunked by the fact that whoever posted it did not know the publisher, if in fact notation of not knowing the publisher and pov language came from the same person. Here's the original text for those concerned:

No Longer Ashamed' (publisher unknown): If you can locate this very hard to find autobiography it is the personal story of Charles Manson's nephew Michael A. McFarland and their boyhood relationship. Michaels's journey to escape the stigma is nothing less than inspirational.

If the rationale doesn't work for everyone, do say so.

Plagarism

Big chuncks of this article seem to be taken from the Ontario Consultants for Religious Tolerance (www.religioustolerance.org) section on the Manson Family. I'm talking word-for-word copying. Are Wikipedia and the ORTC aware of this, and has it been approved? If not somebody ought to check into it.

Motive

Why doesn't someone just write to him and ask what his motives were?

Believe it or not, that would be original research so we couldn't use it. We have to wait for someone else to get the information and publish it somewhere reputable, then we can use it. In your capacity as a private citizen, you could write to him and do the work of getting it published. Then some other Wikipedian could see it and quote it here. Funny, huh. JackofOz 10:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Roman Polanski

In discussing the Tate murder, this article claims that Roman Polanski was in London filming Rosemary's Baby. This is clearly impossible, given that Rosemary's Baby had already been released more than a year earlier, in 1968. Perhaps someone can clarify this?

Feedback

Hi, I just surfed onto your article. Well done to those who have helped create it -- I think it is impressively NPOV considering the material. I'm not sure if this point has been made, but I think the validity of the "news" articles on http://www.charliemanson.com/news-archive/index.htm as linked in the article is dubious. The recent "news stories" on Roman Polanski give enough evidence as to strongly suggest they are written by the owner of the website, with a direct and consistent attempt at defamation. The writing style they are in comes across as an amature attempt at recreating a journalistic style, giving evidence to their lack of authenticity. Please read the articles in question (Try "Polanski's Tears at 'slur on Sharons memory'", the most objective sounding one in the list) to gauge for yourself. I hope you come to the conclusion that they are most likely fabrications, and consequently should not be linked in the article.

Marilyn Manson

How is he related to Marilyn Manson? They're both creepy. Are they brothers?70.124.132.176 20:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

They're not related. Marilyn Manson and his bandmembers each took the first name of an iconic female and the last name of a serial killer/killer. So Marilyn Monroe + Charles Manson = Marilyn Manson. Other bandmembers were/are Ginger Fish (Ginger Rogers/Albert Fish), Madonna Wayne Gacy (Madonna/John Wayne Gacy) etc. See the full list here. Rossrs 20:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Uncle's prison sentence

"In 1939, his mother and his uncle, Luther Maddox, were convicted of sexual assault. Luther served five years in Moundsville prison, dying there in 1949" makes no sense - 1949 is TEN years later than 1939, not five. DrHydeous 17:13, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• I think this sentence, "Marilyn Manson derived his last name from Charles Manson." is misplaced. It's not significant enough to be in the first paragraph and I think it should be moved to the pop culture section, where it would fit better. -WeirdWhodi

Meat Loaf encounter

i was searching meat loaf on youtube and came accross this video [1] in which meat loaf recalls picking up charlie manson who was hitch hiking. i wouldn't know where this would fit in, maybe trivia. i'm just putting the information here for anyone who wants to use it

Improper Citations for a Biography of a Living Person

I'm very concerned that there is a section for references and further reading at the bottom of the article but nothing connection individual assertions to those references. Per Wikipedia policy on biographies of living persons, all biographical information about a living person must be referenced or removed. Period. This is quite a large article with an epic history, but that doesn't make it immune to Wikipedia policy. Ideas? Wyatt Riot 09:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Height

I included the fact that he is only 5'5 in there for no other reason than it is an interesting fact when you consider how intimidating he is purported to be.Quadzilla99 13:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

not that it matters but in the book helter skelter it says that he's 5'2

The 5'2 height is disputed by Manson family members, particularly Sandra Good. They claim that Bugliosi lied about the height in order to make Manson appear more unusual/freakish. Serpent-A 17:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The book has a booking picture with a the height measurement of 5'2" on a chart next to Manson. --PTR 21:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Children

I would appreciate if some/anyone could provide some reliable sources to Manson's second son, the alleged Charles Luther Manson. I've read just about everything there is to read about the man, but never have I found anything even remotely reliable regarding this alleged second son. As far as the public and official records go, there's absolutely nothing to be found about any person named Charles Luther Manson. Some sources state the year of birth as 1963, which would mean a bizarre and quite unnatural gestation period of some 36 months for the unfortunate mother. Manson was put in jail in 1960, remember?

Anyone? If no-one can come up with the goods, I will remove the entry. Tirolion 16:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

• I can't believe that this loser, Charles Manson, can attract so much attention.

Well, you're here reading about him, aren't you? ;) Tirolion 10:20, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

• Believe me, nothing I am particularly proud of. Research into this guy seems like a dead end onto itself. Who cares if he slept with his followers, etc. There's something deeply disturbing about fetishing someone like a Manson.

There are numerous citations on the internet about the alleged second son -- Charles Luther Manson -- but they are all either factually false, illogical or unverifiable.

The online source at: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/mansonchrono.html doesn't even notice that Manson had been in jail for three years in 1963. How's that for a "reliable source", eh?

The source at: http://history1900s.about.com/od/1960s/p/charlesmanson.htm even tells us that Manson was married to Leona. No such documents exist.

Some online sources even offer her real name; Candy Stevens. No official documents of any such marriage exist, nor do any documents of any such child exist. The aforementioned documents would be in the public record, readily accessible by anyone. After some quite thorough research I've come to the conclusion that the entire story is made up, a fairytale, a pipe dream. Another word for such a thing is a lie, eerily in line with the title of Manson's first LP. What sayeth thee, fellow wikipedians? Any objections to me removing the entry? Tirolion 10:41, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

1967-1969

It seems odd that there is no discussion of the time period between his release from period and the 1969 murders. How did he form the "family"? Uucp 22:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Annoyingly, Manson Family links here, but this article says next to nothing about the Manson family. The articles on the family members say a few things. The article on Squeaky Fromme explains that she "found Manson's philosophies and attitudes appealing". No mention here or there at all about what those might be.

- Keith D. Tyler ¶ (AMA) 19:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Kathleen Maddox

link routes to Charles Manson...wtf??

TF is that she's Manson's mother. Do you have another Kathleen Maddox to enter? CMacMillan 00:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I get that, but it's an active link on the Charles Manson page. in other words, the page links to itself. if there is no page for Kathleen Maddox, it should not link to her son, particularly when the link connecting to Charles Manson is on the Charles Manson page. it's like using the word you're defining in the definition.

D'oh! That's wtf... gotcha. I'll change it. CMacMillan 01:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

In most of the information I have read (including Manson's autobiography), Maddox was 16 when she gave birth; this article lists her age as 18.--Unregistered Me, 11/12/06

WTF?!

From the article "He was an evil, evil man."

WTF is that? This is a damn encyclopedia. Clearly judgmental phrases like that should not be presented.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with the statement personally, but this is simply not encyclopedia material.

-- bobo Novermber 13, 2006 - 4:39 am