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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Emperor (talk | contribs) at 22:56, 3 April 2019 (→‎Mary Jane Statue: Comment). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Untitled

I need help here

I wrote most this memory and then went looking for the sources that I would have picked the information up from.

I dont know how to "cite sources" here and need help

the closest thing to a backup

would be the copy of the article on answers.com. But doesn't it is still stored somewhere in wikipedia, or when an article is deleted, the whole history is altogether? I can't understand why it was deleted to begin with... --Extremophile 20:39, 5 October 2006 (UTC) Pig-man needs to die! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.245.125.29 (talk) 06:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mary Jane Statue

I think some mention should be made in this article of the Mary Jane statue controversy. 66.59.129.42 (talk) 14:55, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure how this could be done that doesn't hit 'original research' AND libel. Lots42 (talk) 13:54, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Huh? How in the world would accurately including material be either original research or libel? Original Research would be material based on personal knowledge instead of reliable secondary sources, and libel would be information that is both defamatory and generally untrue. I just added material on the article with seven different sources, which included Newsarama, the Toronto Sun and the New York Post. Nightscream (talk) 03:45, 29 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Section is too long. I think the material is impt but should be included in an article about cheesecake art or perhaps comic-book depictions of women.

Proposed change:

In May 2007, Sideshow Collectibles released a miniature statuette of Mary Jane Watson, based on artwork by Hughes. The statue, which depicts Mary Jane wearing a cleavage-revealing T-shirt and low-cut jeans that expose the top of a pink thong while bending over a metal tub holding Spider-Man's costume, generated controversy among some fans who felt that the statue was sexist.[21][22] Elizabeth McDonald of girl-wonder.org, an organization dedicated to "high-quality character depiction" in the comics industry, was incredulous at the statue's design, though she stated, "Honestly, the difficulty with this statuette is that if you're a woman who likes comics, it's not even noteworthy. Many male comic fans can't understand the outrage it's generated, since this is fairly tame within the industry. This portrayal of Mary Jane could be considered superior to some in the industry, since her clothes don't seem to be actively falling off her". The Toronto Star's Malene Arpe echoed this, pointing to female characters with even more revealing appearances, such as Black Cat and Witchblade.[23][24] 70.112.229.80 (talk) 21:45, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly prefer it shorter for the sake of balance. The above is a start. Don't forget that, if they help support the text, you can preserve some of the quotes (or even introduce them) in the |quote= section of the citeweb template.
I'll have a read of both versions of the two contested paragraphs over the next day or so and see if I can come up with any adjustments that gives us the best of both worlds. Emperor (talk) 22:56, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Cover Girls Statues

Attn Nightscream:

The disputed section is actually plagiarized from the "cited" article (as in it's not placed in quotations properly). Moreover, even though the mistake was Hughes', the term "stola" is Latin, NOT Greek. As it stands, the article is egregiously erroneous and has nothing to do with my personal opinion about clothing or fashion.

With regards to statues, I can link every individual statue's product page from PreviewsWorld if you'd like. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.229.80 (talk) 17:25, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As I explained on my own talk page, I did not "plagiarize" anything, since plagiarism, by definition, refer to taking credit for others' work by presenting them as your own through the omission of credit. (Source: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]) The paragraph in question is properly paraphrased, and properly credited to its sources, in accordance with all the relevant policies and guidelines: WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:CS, et al. See this section on my talk page for further discussion on this. Nightscream (talk) 22:08, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Further evidence that Nightscream should be blocked from editing this page -- now reverting my good faith efforts to document the existence of every Adam Hughes Cover Girls statue.70.112.229.80 (talk) 22:27, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus Discussion: Reliability for iconicity of the "Real Power" poster

A conflict has arisen on the following passage in the 2000s section, in the paragraph on the "Real Power of the DC Universe" poster:


User:70.112.229.80 favors removing mention of the iconicity of the poster, saying in his edit summary that this detail "is the opinion of someone who interviewed Hughes but isn't an established academic consensus."

My position is that Comics Alliance is indeed a reliable source for reporting on the comics industry, one that editors on comics-related articles on Wiikipedia regularly rely on for such information, and that therefore, the Comics Alliance article by Andrew Wheeler that is cited at the end of the passage is certainly valid to support that claim, in part because Wheeler elaborates on how it has become iconic: It having resulted in requests for Hughes to do various other similar posters with other sets of characters. 70.112.229.80's requirement that such a claim can only be supported by "academic consensus" represents an unreasonable standard for a claim about a piece of modern comics art, one that is not reflected in the practices of the editing community here on Wikipedia. Interestingly, 70.112.229.80 does not apparently mind allowing mention of these derivative artworks that have been requested of Hughes to remain in the passage (just the conclusion that Wheeler reasonably draws from them), as this is 70.112.229.80 preferred version:


We ask for other editors to weigh in. Nightscream (talk) 21:21, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hughes creating similar drawings is an empirically observable fact. Whether or not something is "iconic" needs to meet a rigorous standard, especially when we're discussing one person essentially copying himself.70.112.229.80 (talk) 21:55, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know that calling something iconic requires a "rigorous standard", but after reviewing Cultural icon I agree that this picture shouldn't be referred to as iconic without a qualifier. Wheeler's often reliable, but I think he misused the word in this instance. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:00, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
70.112.229.80 has now taken to blanking out most of the paragraph. Nightscream (talk) 15:55, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Nightscream on the reliability of Comics Alliance, but if it will satisfy 70.112.229.80, you could attribute the claim like:
--TriiipleThreat (talk) 18:23, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Concur with this version. Nice, User:triiipleThreat.

--Lexein (talk) 18:37, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

* Support TriiipleThreat's wording. It isn't necessarily universally hailed as iconic, as CA reporter thinks it is and the proposed wording is an accurate reflection of things. Emperor (talk) 20:49, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, TriiipleThreat, please see below for my suggested revision of the entire paragraph. Thanks!70.112.229.80 (talk) 18:35, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Request to block Nightscream from editing this page

Sorry, Nightscream, but you don't own the article.

1) Adam Hughes mis-spoke and made a factual error, which you insist on repeating here.

2) Changing "Greek stola" to "Greek peplos" is actually an act which you accused me of doing ("whether or not the dress resembles a tunic is not up to you").

3) The entire section about the Women of the DC Universe picture is essentially a plagiarized re-hash of an interview. It's not only plagiarism but also much too long for one piece of Hughes' career.

4) You repeat another person's opinions as if they are facts. You could've written something such as "Wheeler refers to the drawing as 'iconic'.", but instead, you parrot him verbatim as if this is an established consensus.

This is an excellent example of poor writing. 70.112.229.80 (talk) 22:06, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So let's see:
You had already had it explained to you what plagiarism is, complete with numerous sources that define it ([7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12]), both on my talk page, and on this talk page two sections up, and yet you continue to make this false accusation.
I compromised by changing the term used to describe a garment per your edit summary, yet, now you're complaining about it.
You pretend that any one of these things you list is somehow a blockable offense.
This makes it clear that you not only don't care what definitions of words like plagiarism are, and not only don't care when evidence is presented that proves you wrong about those things, but also that you don't care to learn the policies and guidelines of the website that you're visiting, as if the editing community here is going to ---- what, exactly? Block an editor because an anonymous IP editor says so?
If you think this is going to end well for you or any of the things you're attempting to accomplish, I have disappointing news for you, my friend. But by all means, ignore my attempts to discuss these things with you, if you feel that's the only course of action you're capable of taking. Nightscream (talk) 22:15, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not any "one" thing, but the totality of your behavior as well as your "ownership" attitude towards the page.70.112.229.80 (talk) 22:19, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Now you're flat out lying. What I actually wrote in my edit was "WW's outfit doesn't resemble a Greek peplos (tunic) anyway", and yet you're using that comment as justification to use peplos instead of stola? Again, Hughes made a factual error, which means that this shouldn't even be in the Wikipedia entry anyway!70.112.229.80 (talk) 22:32, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry if I mis-remembered what you said about the peplos; I should've looked more carefully at your edit summary from January. But yourknee-jerk assumption and accusation of lying doesn't really do much to show that you're capable of discussing editorial conflicts with editors that you disagree with in a civil manner. Nightscream (talk) 00:07, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@70.112.229.80:, please see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. A section here requesting an edit block for a user on an article isn't going to reach the your desired audience. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:25, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't recommend moving forward with a block request because I don't think you (IP) have a strong case, and you're confusing OWN with a content dispute. I think Wikipedia:RfC is a better method for resolving this, although you'll want to boil the issue down to a clear and concise question, like "Is the section on the image giving it undue weight?" Argento Surfer (talk) 13:06, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to have to concur with Argento on this, but if you insist on risking the WP:BOOMERANG you can try JHunterJ's suggestion. BOZ (talk) 14:03, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Argento Surfer That's essentially what I've been trying to communicate to Nightscream, but he's overly sensitive and possessive about what he wrote. The section is way too long (undue length for one piece of art that Hughes drew in a long career), with extensive paraphrasing that rises to the level of plagiarism. Moreover, Nightscream is parroting Wheeler's opinions in a lot of instances without making it clear that these are Wheeler's opinions or Hughes' recollections of what transpired. It is possible that Hughes mis-remembered (or worse, however unlikely, might be lying). This long-ish paragraph only has ONE source.

I have proposed the following change:

"In 2008, DC Comics hired Hughes to create a poster of the major female characters in the DC Universe as a giveaway for that year's San Diego Comic-Con, to promote DC's upcoming projects. The poster, called "Real Power of the DC Universe", features 11 female characters, standing and sitting abreast of one another. The characters are mostly clad in white outfits rather than their familiar superhero costumes, as per DC's request, so Hughes, wanting to avoid making the poster look like a bridal magazine layout, gave each outfit a slightly different color temperature. He also gave each character a distinctive style. For example, the outfit worn by Poison Ivy features a floral trim. Subsequently, Hughes has created similar drawings with different groupings (such as male characters, Marvel characters, etc.)." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.229.80 (talk) 18:30, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

One more time for the cheap seats:
There is no such thing as "extensive paraphrasing that rises to the level of plagiarism," because plagiarism, but definition means taking credit for someone else's work. It does not mean "extensive paraphrasing", which not only isn't a thing, but essentially a contradiction in terms, such paraphrasing, but its very nature, cannot be "extensive". I don't know if you simply have a reading comprehension problem, are being intentionally deceitful, are simply trolling, or just plain don't care, but I provided you with five different sources that provide this definition (Google, Random House, Plagiarism.org 1, Plagiarism.org 2, The University of Michigan, Columbia College), yet you continue to knowingly and deliberately refer to what you feel is a too-large section as "plagiarism." You have also repeatedly done the same when you falsely accused me of vandalism (once here), and (just minutes ago), after I merely added a mention of the example of the Wonder Woman statue to the paragraph on the statues.
You have repeatedly violated WP:CIV, including WP:NPA, and are now reverting any edit I make to the article for completely arbitrary reasons, which is precisely what WP:OWN prohibits us from doing.
Simply put, your edits and your behavior here are disruptive and incivil, and you will not be permitted to take unilateral control over this or any other article. Nightscream (talk) 18:55, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And yet you can? Pffft.70.112.229.80 (talk) 18:57, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No. No one can, nor have I attempted to. You simply don't wish to listen my attempts to explain my edits.
If you want proof of this, I point you to your knee-jerk assumption that I was "lying" when I referenced an earlier edit summary of yours in which (I thought) you said the tunic worn by Wonder Woman was called a "peplos". This was a genuine mistake on my part, but did you ask me about it before forming a conclusion on it? Nope. You just assumed it was a lie, without bothering to exclude the possibility of a genuine mistake on my part. For my part, I freely acknowledged my error on apologized for it. Did you acknowledge this? Of course not.
Did you acknowledge what the definition of plagiarism is, or explain why you disagree with those sources that say it isn't what you claim it is? No. You just make up your own definition of it, and then falsely accuse another editor of it, much as you did with the word "vandalism", after I restored mention of WW's tunic, without naming it, which I did precisely because you correctly argued that the prior words I used were incorrect. How is that "vandalism"?
If you want to argue that a paragraph is too big ---FINE! Great! Let's talk about it! Let's agree to disagree about it? But why use a word to describe that which doesn't mean that? Why revert any and all edits by me, including a completely innocuous one about the tunic, and falsely call it "vandalism", if you aren't attempting to violate WP:OWN?
Bottom line: I've complied with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. You haven't. Nightscream (talk) 19:07, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is very easy. Hughes made a mistake. As such, it can't be used as the basis for a factual description of what Wonder Woman is wearing.70.112.229.80 (talk) 19:12, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Also, your injudicious use of the "undo" button resulted in grammar errors, undoing the addition of a better version of the poster, and other problems throughout the article.70.112.229.80 (talk) 19:15, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
See here for above: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Adam_Hughes&type=revision&diff=890815718&oldid=890815469 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.229.80 (talk) 19:33, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
According to our page on Plagiarism, Yale considers paraphrasing that stays too close to the original to be plagiarism. Perhaps the IP is an Eli? Ironically, that quote from Yale's rules isn't cited. Our article about plagiarism is plagiarized.
I ran the page against Earwig, and it found a 7.4% likelihood of plagiarism for the article indicated. There were some higher results, but they are properly attributed quotes or mirror sites. Argento Surfer (talk) 20:34, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Argento Surfer:, do you believe that the paragraph that 70 wishes to partially blank was too large, and that the portions of it he wishes to delete should remain removed? Nightscream (talk) 21:04, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Since Nightscream loves to link to Wiki policy, here's one for you: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Close_paraphrasing
Close paraphrasing may constitute plagiarism and/or copyright infringement.70.112.229.80 (talk) 20:42, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"This is very easy. Hughes made a mistake." The fact that it should not be used as the basis for what's in the WP article is why I stopped using it, and changed it to simply "Greek-style tunic". You're still complaining about the previous issue of the words "stola" and "peplos" even though no one is using those terms any more. Why is this?
"Also, your injudicious use of the "undo" button resulted in grammar errors." First of all, use of the word "miniseries" instead of "series" isn't of grammar, it's a function of vocabulary, and while one word is more precise than the other, it's hardly an "error" and hardly deserving justification for remarks like this one, especially your well-established, and much poorer vocabulary ("plagiarism", "vandalsim'), one which is driven by emotion and deceit. It is also the height of hypocrisy for you to point to minor issues of vocabulary, given your sloppy addition to the article body of a redundant, second cite of a source already mentioned in the Lead, this time without the full publication info. Now tell me: Should I make a snarky comment to you about "reading before hitting the Publish changes button," or do you think I should be civil, and chalk this up to a simple mistake that everyone makes?
"Since Nightscream loves to link to Wiki policy, here's one for you..." The page you linked to, which isn't a policy or guideline, says, "Summarize in your own words instead of closely paraphrasing".
Here's the definition of paraphrase: "Express the meaning of (the writer or speaker or something written or spoken) using different words, especially to achieve greater clarity."
In other words, summarizing something in your own words IS paraphrasing.
That page also says: "Editors should generally summarize source material in their own words, adding inline citations as required by the sourcing policy.. Limited close paraphrasing is appropriate within reason, as is quoting, so long as the material is clearly attributed in the text – for example, by adding "John Smith wrote ..." In other words, plagiarism, as I've pointed out numerous times now, complete with several sources that back this up, is a problem to the extent that it constitutes 'taking credit for someone else's work by omitting credit to the original author. The text did not fail to credit the source by omitting an inline citation, since it had that, and our discussions on this page have suggested how we can further attribute the source by mentioning the author/website in the text itself. Nightscream (talk) 21:00, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Calling it a Greek-style tunic constitutes original research on your part.70.112.229.80 (talk) 21:02, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Also, if you look at the revision history, you'll see that you wrote "three-issue series miniseries".70.112.229.80 (talk) 21:05, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
On blocking Nightscream from the page: My concerns about the editing of this page go both ways - you both need to take a step back and work towards a consensus on the talk page. Arguing about whether the garment is a stola or a peplos can easily be avoided by using a more neutral term, for example. Accusations of plagiarism and requests to block a user from editing a page aren't the right way of resolving issues like this and can be read as an attempt by an editor to get their own way.
On the "Real Power" poster: I prefer the shorter version as we don't really need to know the minutiae of the design process - if people are interested in that then the source is there for them to do further reading. I think the previous, longer version was giving it too much coverage in an article on someone with a long and diverse career. I also feel the previous paragraph on the Mary Jane statue could be trimmed back as again it seems to give it undue weight and makes the article feel unbalanced. It isn't, however, a question of plagiarism (which Nightscream's referred version isn't), pushing that argument only distracts from the more important issues. Emperor (talk) 21:16, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Emperor -- I feel the same way about the Mary Jane statue and proposed a shorter version. Thanks! 70.112.229.80 (talk) 21:46, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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