Talk:Southwestern Advantage

Archives (Index)

2012 2014 2015

This page is archived by ClueBot III.

Former Salesman With Southwestern

WP:NOTFORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I sold books in 1973 and ended up owing money that year and signed up again for 1974 and quit after less than a week. There is truth in both the negative and positve statements about the company. I was not a good salesman, but I remember the experience to this day and remain friends with some of those I worked with. I certainly remember this better than any other summer job I had in college or high school. True it was better for some than for others. All in all, I'm glad I did it when I think about it. I have sympathy for the thoughts about asking neighbors about other children. I'm glad I did it in a more trusting time with fewer strange activities. 216.106.54.30 (talk) 04:31, 31 July 2009 (UTC) I sold from 1975 through 1978. I am *not* a natural salesman -- my first year I made a profit of $350, and the first few weeks I barely made anything. Since you pay for all expenses yourself, it was a pretty hand-to-mouth existence. I did *not* have fun that first year. "Miserable" would be a pretty good description. Later years were better. My last year I made a profit of around $3000, and it was a lot more pleasant. I am not the salesman "type." I don't especially enjoy it. But I can *do* it. I learned a lot about myself, about persistence, and about standing on my own. I would never want to do it again, but it may very well be the best thing that ever happened to me. Unkilbeeg (talk) 15:47, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 3 external links on Southwestern Company. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110828010241/http://steering.dsu.org.uk/policy/display.php?policy=Southwestern+Books to http://steering.dsu.org.uk/policy/display.php?policy=Southwestern+Books
• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110721085739/http://www.bugs.bham.ac.uk/getinvolved/guild_council/Papers/Papers071206/pdfs/05%20Southwestern%20motion.pdf to http://www.bugs.bham.ac.uk/getinvolved/guild_council/Papers/Papers071206/pdfs/05%20Southwestern%20motion.pdf
• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20101025225745/http://www.uiargonaut.com:80/content/view/9859/48 to http://www.uiargonaut.com/content/view/9859/48/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 23:57, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 10 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved as requested, believed to be uncontroversial. Dekimasuよ! 13:15, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

---

Southwestern Company → Southwestern Advantage – As acknowledged in the page's intro paragraph, the company's current name is "Southwestern Advantage". NateBumber (talk) 18:03, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Propsing updated current information

Much of the information on this page is quite outdated and is lacking context. As a simple starting place, under Program (paragraph 3), Southwestern Advantage did away with $500 Letters of Credit years ago. The paragraph could more-accurately read, "Students provide the company a Parent Support Letter, in which the endorsers state their support of the student's participation in the program. This parental endorsement allows the company to ship training materials to the student free of charge."

Under Criticism, this opening statement should be removed: "According to the anti-human trafficking charity Polaris, organizations often send their recruiters to target unemployed young people and college students with promises of high profits. These companies only hire employees as independent contractors to avoid following the Fair Labor Standards Act's mandates for minimum wage or overtime pay.[10]" This statement should be removed since it unfairly implies that Southwestern Advantage is one of the un-reputable companies and operates as such. This statement also makes an unfounded generalization that Southwestern Advantage only uses independent contractors to avoid mandates and minimum wage requirements, when in fact the very purpose of the program is to be an entrepreneurial endeavor where students learn to operate their own small businesses.

This paragraph would read more fairly and factually if those first two sentences were removed. Using the Better Business Bureau as the credible source supports both of these proposed edits.

These edits would provide more factual information while not reading like an advertisement or an implication. Rryandavis (talk) 01:11, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

References

No, I don't agree. MLM affiliates are not meaningfully considered small business owners. How would that justify less information? BBB listings are routine WP:PRIMARY sources which are poor for establishing due weight. If this information is outdated, propose actionable updates based on updated sources. Also, please, yet again, if you have a conflict of interest, disclose it. Grayfell (talk) 01:35, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

The suggestion here is to remove information that is not specific to Southwestern Advantage. Polaris makes mention of activity done by "organizations" – a comment that is vague, Southwestern Advantage is not one of these organizations, and the activity described is not a practice of the company. It's a misleading implication that serves no purpose on this page. The Letter of Credit has not been a practice of the company for years, so to have that listed on the page is inaccurate. In terms of me having a conflict of interest, I am employed by the company, which is why I am not making edits but requesting that those who edit the page make accurate up to date information available. Rryandavis (talk) 18:37, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Proposing the page edit be made to accurately describe the company as a direct selling company, not an MLM. The current information on the page is conflicting: "The company operates on a structured multi-level marketing platform where student dealers participating in the program are independent contractors, not employees. The money they earn is solely determined by their sales revenue minus their expenses and the cost of goods sold." Those statements describe direct selling, not MLM. There is an MLM option for selected leaders within the company, however they are the minority of total participants. Entry-level participants with the company do not have an MLM option; they buy at wholesale and sell at retail. --Rryandavis (talk) 19:58, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Clean Up Inaccuracies/Biases

I'm a current employee of this company, and I've noticed that the information describing Southwestern Advantage seems to have clear editorial bias (Doesn't comply with Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View), as well as a lack of information regarding the company. Reading through the material, there are statements that are clearly incorrect, outdated, or irrelevent, and verbage is used consistently throughout the page implying negativity without explanation (All facts and significant points of view on a given subject) or with broken/incorrect sources. [1]

A couple examples: "Students regularly work 72 or more hours per week, almost twice the upper limit imposed by the Fair Labor Standards Act.[4]" Firstly, the statement "almost twice the upper limit imposed by the Fair Labor Standards Act" is irrelevent...considering that independent contractors or business owners aren't held to those standards. All the statement does is imply that individuals are overworked even though they technically work for themselves, which gives negative connotations. Also, the source for that statement is incorrect. Nothing on that page indicates how long students work, nor does it mention the Fair Labor Standards Act.

"According to the anti-human trafficking charity Polaris, organizations often send their recruiters to target unemployed young people and college students with promises of high profits. As independent contractors, Southwestern Advantage avoids the Fair Labor Standards Act's mandates for minimum wage or overtime pay.[9]" This statement is irrelevent to Southwestern Advantage and has no place on the Wikipedia page describing the company. Southwestern does not, and never has, used traveling sales crews. Thus, the article used as the source for these statements are incorrect. I request that those sentences and it's sources be removed

In addition to this, your previous statement back in May, "MLM affiliates are not meaningfully considered small business owners." is an example of an opinion and not a fact. It is my understanding that information about a company must be based on facts and not opinion. [1]

There are other discrepancies and inaccuracies as well, but before I take the time to list everything that I see as incorrect, outdated, or biased, I'd like to make sure I get a proper response back so as to not waste my time (rryandavis didn't get a response to his/her second post). I also have some additions that I believe should be made in order to help explain more about the company and it's history. Appreciate it!

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view&gettingStartedReturn=true' Djohnston-10 (talk) 01:47, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• Wikipedia isn't a platform for promotion. Describing sourced information as "irrelevant" is merely your subjective opinion, but we are not interested in that. Further, as someone with a conflict of interest, you are not a neutral judge of such things. If you would like to propose specific, actionable changes, do so, but please keep it brief and support all changes with reliable sources, not firsthand knowledge or personal opinion. Grayfell (talk) 02:01, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• Understood. I just want to make sure that Southwestern has a page that is in alignment with a Neutral Point of View. I am unsure how to propose changes with sources if some of the sources that are already being used have nothing to do with the statements (or don't have a source). I'm interested in facts as well.

"The company has notably garnered significant criticism for its poor working conditions and exploitation of students, and it has been banned from many campuses in the United States and United Kingdom." There's no source for this statement. There are sources for the campuses Southwestern has been banned at (further down the page), but not for the first half of the statement. Can it be removed or a source be found for it? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Djohnston-10 (talk • contribs) 19:13, 30 November 2018 (UTC) Djohnston-10 (talk) 19:30, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

I'd also like to propose an addition to the Southwestern Advantage Wikipedia article, mostly having to do with history and background.

"Southwestern Advantage, formerly known as Southwestern Company is an American privately held company based in Nashville, TN. Established in 1855, it is the nation's oldest direct selling company. It is a multi-level marketing company that recruits and trains college and university students as independent contractors to sell educational books, software, and website subscriptions door-to-door using direct selling methods. Southwestern works with over 2,000 students at over 300 campuses worldwide." Djohnston-10 (talk) 19:31, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Still waiting for a response, please! Thanks Djohnston-10 (talk) 08:23, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

References

Request for changes

Hello, I am a paid editor, please find my disclosure here

• Requesting to review proposed changes for the section "Programs"

1. Section, "Program". Request to remove "multi-level-marketing" and replace it with "Direct Selling"

Reasons Southwestern Advantage is a Direct selling company and not a multi-level marketing based company. Please see reference 1 on the wikipedia page and you will see that the reference describes the company as a direct seller. I am attaching a quote from the reference here for your convenience

"Southwestern Advantage is a direct seller and publisher of educational and reference products including books, CD-ROMs and a subscription-based website." "Direct Selling"

2.Removal of the sentence highlighted in bold.

They do not receive wages or employee benefits,^[1] and the program does not offer any guaranteed pay.^[2] Because students hired are independent contractors, they are expected to fully finance their living expenses, food, gas, and rent, even when on company trips

Reason This claim is not cited. The references do not indicate that students have to pay on company trips.

3. Remove, "require" from the sentence, "In addition, expenses of the required Sunday meetings with managers paid for by the students themselve"

Reason This claim is not cited. Independent contractors are not required to attend meetings.

4. Removal of the sentence, "Students regularly work 72 or more hours per week, almost twice the upper limit imposed by the Fair Labor Standards Act"

Reasons The fair labor standards act applies to employers/employees, minimum wage, and overtime pay; it does not apply to independent contractors who run their own business and choose their own working hours. Also, this cited source does not exist

4. Replacing the paragraph, "Students provide the company a letter of credit Parent Support Letter signed by two an endorsers, typically the student's parents, in which the endorsers agree to be responsible for up to $500 each if the student fails to pay any money owed to the company at the end of the summer", with, "The company requires no up-front inventory purchasing, and provides all training and initial sales supplies free of charge. Students provide the company with a Parent Support Letter, signed by the student's parents or guardians, in which the endorsers state their awareness and support of the student’s participation" With, "Students provide the company with a Parent Support Letter, signed by the student's parents or guardians, in which the endorsers state their awareness and support of the student’s participation."

Reasons The company ended using letters of credit years ago; and no parents or endorsers have any financial responsibility for a student’s failure to pay money owed at the end of summer. What is on the page right now is a misrepresentation; and the cited source for letter of credit does not work either.

5. Removal of the paragraph, "According to the anti-human trafficking charity Polaris, organizations often send their recruiters to target unemployed young people and college students with promises of high profits. As independent contractors, Southwestern Advantage avoids the Fair Labor Standards Act's mandates for minimum wage or overtime pay"

Reason

The citation is not relevant to the company - it is a general article that explains facets of the industry as a whole and does not mention Southwestern Advantage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saad Ahmed2983 (talk • contribs) 11:49, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Reply 25-MAR-2019

  Unable to review  

• In instances where it is claimed that references are not working, those references have not been provided here on the talk page.
• "This claim is not cited. The references do not indicate that students have to pay on company trips." This statement says that the claim is incorrectly cited ("The references do not indicate that students have to pay...") and not cited at all "This claim is not cited."). A claim can be either cited (correctly or incorrectly) or not cited — it cannot be both. This, coupled with the problematic references which are mentioned — but not described verbatim — make the edit request not actionable.

Kindly reformulate your edit request, taking care to cite verbatim all issues and references. Care should particularly be taken to distinguish instances where:

1. There is a reference for a claim, but the claim does not state what the reference does
2. There is no reference for a claim
3. The reference for the claim is not working or unreachable

In all instances except number 2, the reference should be listed here on the talk page. Additionally, the COI editor is reminded of the need to sign all posts left on the talk page. Regards,  Spintendo  12:08, 25 March 2019 (UTC) Saad Ahmed2983 (talk) 15:10, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Hello, thank you so much for your prompt response and for guiding me. I will reformulate this request as per your instructions (not actionable but neutral) and post it again.

Thank you.

Saad Ahmed2983 (talk) 15:12, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. One of the problems here is that in the numbered outcomes I listed above it can easily be stated that number 2 (there is no reference for a claim) is the theoretical outcome of number 1 (there is a reference for a claim, but the claim does not state what the reference does) because if that reference provided is wrong, then that claim can ultimately be said to be not cited. But for the purposes of this edit request, I think it's best that these two instances be distinctly separated in order to better solve their issues. If you could do that it would be much appreciated. Thank you!  Spintendo  19:04, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I will separate these two instances distinctly and will follow your guidelines. Thank you so much Saad Ahmed2983 (talk) 12:24, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Request for Changes

Hello, I am a paid editor, please find my disclosure here

I have reformulated my request as per your instructions.Thanks in advance

Extended content

1. Request to remove "multi-level-marketing" and replace it with "Direct Selling" (A) Lead Page: Southwestern Advantage, formerly known as Southwestern Company, is a multi-level marketing company that recruits and trains college and university students as independent contractors to sell educational books, software, and website subscriptions door-to-doorusing direct selling methods. (B) Some dealers are invited to return in subsequent years as managers, who recruit their own teams during the school year and earn a percentage commission on the sales of their team, as in multi-level marketing. Reasons: (2):There is no reference for the claim that Southwestern Advantage is a Multi-level-marketing company Personal Findings: Southwestern Advantage is a Direct selling company and not a multi-level marketing based company. I am attaching a quote from the reference on the main page here for your convenience. "Southwestern Advantage is a direct seller and publisher of educational and reference products including books, CD-ROMs and a subscription-based website." 2.Removal of the sentence highlighted in bold. Because students hired are independent contractors, they are expected to fully finance their living expenses, food, gas, and rent, even when on company trips. In addition, expenses of the required Sunday meetings with managers paid for by the students themselves. Foreign students must pay for their visas and airfare themselves. Reason: (1): There is a reference for a claim, but the claim does not state what the reference does . Personal Findings: Upon investigating the reference, I found no proof of this claim that "Students are expected to finance themselves on company trips" 3. Remove, "require" from the sentence, "In addition, expenses of the required Sunday meetings with managers paid for by the students themselve" In addition, expenses of the required Sunday meetings with managers paid for by the students themselves. Foreign students must pay for their visas and airfare themselves. Reason: (1): There is a reference for a claim, but the claim does not state what the reference does Personal Findings: The reference does not represent the claim that there is a "requirement" for students to attend and pay for Sunday Meetings. 4. Removal of the sentence, "Students regularly work 72 or more hours per week, almost twice the upper limit imposed by the Fair Labor Standards Act. Reason: (3): The reference for the claim is not working or unreachable Personal Findings: The fair labor standards act applies to employers/employees, minimum wage, and overtime pay; it does not apply to independent contractors who run their own business and choose their own working hours. 4. Replacing the paragraph, "Students provide the company a letter of credit signed by two endorsers, typically the student's parents, in which the endorsers agree to be responsible for up to $500 each if the student fails to pay any money owed to the company at the end of the summer., WITH , "The company requires no up-front inventory purchasing, and provides all training and initial sales supplies free of charge. Students provide the company with a Parent Support Letter, signed by the student's parents or guardians, in which the endorsers state their awareness and support of the student’s participation. Reasons: This seems to be a case where the reference is questionable as per WP:references , it is a copy of the letter of credit used by the company years ago and has some commentary below , Personal Findings: This claim seems to be incorrect in respect to the references.The company ended using letters of credit years ago; and no parents or endorsers have any financial responsibility for a student’s failure to pay money owed at the end of summer.. 5. Removal of the paragraph, "According to the anti-human trafficking charity Polaris, organizations often send their recruiters to target unemployed young people and college students with promises of high profits. As independent contractors, Southwestern Advantage avoids the Fair Labor Standards Act's mandates for minimum wage or overtime pay. Reason: (2):There is no reference for the claim it is a general article that explains facets of the industry as a whole and does not mention Southwestern Advantage. 6. Working "Expectations and iIcome" instead of "Working Conditions and Income: Working Conditions imply that SouthWestern Advantage Contractors work in a facility, which is not true. The word "expectations" would be more clear since the workers are independent contractors. 7. Removal of the words highlighted in bold from the sentence, "Students typically have a host family near their sales area, generally alumni, family of other interns, or families found by door-to-door appeals. Housing is not guaranteed by the company. Replacing it with, "Students typically have a host family near their sales area, generally alumni, family of other participants, previous host families, or families found by door-to-door appeals. The company assists participants in securing housing through a Host Family Coordinator, but ultimately the responsibility for securing and maintaining housing is on the participants.. Reason: The first word, "interns" is incorrect, the reference does not mention "interns" . "Housing is not guaranteed by the company", this claim is partially true as it does not shed light on how the company assists its participants in finding housing through a host family coordinator. 8. Removing the paragraph, "Dealers report working 72 or more hours per week in the field, making 30 or more presentations each day, in addition to time spent on bookkeeping, talking to managers or at sales meetings held each Sunday. According to the company, in 2010 the average first-year dealer who stayed with the program for over 20 days grossed $2,415 per month before expenses, which usually range from $1,500 to $3,000. Reasons: There are 2 issues with this paragraph" It can be said that these claims are not cited. The reference for this claim does not work, "According to the company, in 2010 the average first-year dealer who stayed with the program for over 20 days grossed $2,415 per month before expenses, 9. Request to review an addition (update) in the "Working Condition" section: The company trains that a successful selling season involves 12 or more working hours per day during the summer, Monday through Saturday, contacting 30 or more families each day. The hours worked apply to time actually spent in the field and do not include time spent on record keeping, coaching calls, or at sales meetings. Total expenses for the summer vary by the individual, but commonly range from $1,500 to $3,000. As independent contractors, expenses are generally tax-deductible. There are no sales quotas. All participants are able to earn [[Passive income|residual income]] through the sales of the subscription apps and websites. The average total income of five-time US participants in the program was $137,522 in 2018. 10. Replace the sentence, "Students are taught to indirectly ask if there are other families in the neighborhood who may have small children." with, "Salespeople prospect for clients using a combination of door-to-door cold calling and client referrals. Reason: This claim is taken from here, "He explained it is standard procedure for salesmen to ask customers for leads on other families in the neighborhood who may have small children. This is done to save time so salesmen can skip visiting the homes of people who would not be interested in the product.". Therefore, "taught to indirectly ask" sounds sneaky and perhaps, it is a misrepresentation because it is a Sales procedure for prospect clients. 11. Removing the sentence, "Such questions have sometimes been regarded as suspicious, resulting in complaints to local police, close police scrutiny and even an arrest for disorderly conduct. " Reason: There is a reference for a claim, but the claim does not state what the reference does 12. Expanding the the sentence to reflect the citation, "Students are encouraged to leave their cellphones at home to focus on the task at hand, but it is not required." Reason: This claim is taken from here, "Mobile phone's that are not registered in the country a student is selling in can be highly expensive to use and also distracting throughout the daytime. The communication system in either country is excellent, students all have host families and inexpensive calling cards can be recommended by managers eliminating the need for mobile phone and the risk of a high bill at the end of the summer." Perhaps we can say, "Students are encouraged not use their cell phones during day time because they are expensive and distracting. 13. Replacing the words highlighted in bold: "At the end of the summer, products are shipped to the dealers, who revisit the homes where they made a sale to deliver the product and collect any balance due. Dealers generally pay their living expenses out of the down payments they collect, remitting the rest to the company to cover wholesale costs. Dealers return to headquarters in Nashville, where they settle accounts and receive a check for the season's earnings. Reason: "dealers" seems like a mistake, the products are shipped to US Participants, dealers are only part of that. "Earnings", the correct term here would be, "Savings" 14. Removal of the sentence, "Some dealers are invited to return in subsequent years as managers, who recruit their own teams during the school year and earn a percentage commission on the sales of their team, as in multi-level marketing.", Reason: This claim is not cited 15. Addition (update) for the "Working conditions and income" section All participants who complete one or more years are provided with a professional career counselor for their career path and resume at no charge. References

Saad Ahmed2983 (talk) 13:26, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

I spoke too soon here. Looking at the request, more questions are raised than answers. The numbering system is not coherent. The numbering goes as follows:
1.
A.
B.
2.
2.
1.
3.
1.
4.
3.
4.
5.
2.
6.
7.
1.
2.
8.
1.
2.
9.
10.
1.
11.
12.
13.
1.
2.
14.
15.

The claims need to be individually numbered in order to keep track of them, and the numbers need to be sequential. Please note that relying on indentation to assist in delineating individual requests may be complicated by whichever browser the reviewer is using, which may obscure the indentations. Also, request "2" (the second 2) states to remove the sentence highlighted in bold. This sentnece was the one asked for in request "A" (the first one). Please clarify further. Please note, when asking for a sentence to be rewritten (even if for only one word) once that sentence is rewritten showing the new word, subsequent requests should not ask to have anything else deleted from the same sentence. This prevents the natural "moving along" when one sentence is taken care of, because subsequent request begin asking for more changes to the same sentence that had just been re-written. Each sentence should have one bite at the apple, then the reviewer can move on. Circling one sentence and making sequential changes to different words in the sentence is ultimately inefficient. Regards,  Spintendo  23:51, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Hello, thank you so much for your expert feedback. My sincerest apologies for the numbering, I completely overlooked it - I will make the numbers sequential and reformulate the request as per your instructions. Regards Saad Ahmed2983 (talk) 01:00, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Request to Review proposed changes (updated)

Hello, I am a paid editor, please find my disclosure here

Thank you so much for your reply. I have corrected The Numbering - now in sequence and I have also fixed the Indentations. I had a fresh look at it in the morning and it gave me an idea why it might have been problematic and confusing. I have tried my best to make sure that the requests are sequential so that it helps you "move along" smoothly. And I agree with you that once a sentence is done, we should not move back and request more changes.

I would be more than happy to assist you, if you need anything from me, please let me know. Thanks again.

1. Request to remove "multi-level-marketing" and replace it with "Direct Selling"

(A) Lead Page: Southwestern Advantage, formerly known as Southwestern Company, is a multi-level marketing company that recruits and trains college and university students as independent contractors to sell educational books, software, and website subscriptions door-to-doorusing direct selling methods.

(B) Some dealers are invited to return in subsequent years as managers, who recruit their own teams during the school year and earn a percentage commission on the sales of their team, as in multi-level marketing.

Reasons:

There is no reference for the claim that Southwestern Advantage is a Multi-level-marketing company

Personal Findings:

Southwestern Advantage is a Direct selling company and not a multi-level marketing based company. I am attaching a quote from the reference on the main page here for your convenience.

"Southwestern Advantage is a direct seller and publisher of educational and reference products including books, CD-ROMs and a subscription-based website."

Reply 2-APR-2019

Not done
The two terms are related, as one is a subtype of the other.

 Spintendo  17:04, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

2.Removal of the sentence highlighted in bold.

Because students hired are independent contractors, they are expected to fully finance their living expenses, food, gas, and rent, even when on company trips. In addition, expenses of the required Sunday meetings with managers paid for by the students themselves. Foreign students must pay for their visas and airfare themselves.

Reason:

There is a reference for a claim, but the claim does not state what the reference does

Personal Findings:

Upon investigating the reference, I found no proof of this claim that "Students are expected to finance themselves on company trips"

Reply 2-APR-2019

Not done
The sales agreement form indicates that these costs would be incurred by the individual up front, with renumeration at a later date.

 Spintendo  17:04, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

3. Remove, "require" from the sentence "In addition, expenses of the required Sunday meetings with managers paid for by the students themselve"

In addition, expenses of the required Sunday meetings with managers paid for by the students themselves. Foreign students must pay for their visas and airfare themselves.

Reason:

There is a reference for a claim, but the claim does not state what the reference does

Personal Findings:

The reference does not represent the claim that there is a "requirement" for students to attend and pay for Sunday Meetings.

Reply 2-APR-2019

 CN tag added
This reference was not active, so a cn tag was added.

 Spintendo  17:04, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

4. Removal of the sentence "Students regularly work 72 or more hours per week, almost twice the upper limit imposed by the Fair Labor Standards Act.

Reason:

The reference for the claim is not working or unreachable

Personal Findings:

The fair labor standards act applies to employers/employees, minimum wage, and overtime pay; it does not apply to independent contractors who run their own business and choose their own working hours.

Reply 2-APR-2019

 CN tag added
This reference was not active, so a cn tag was added.

 Spintendo  17:04, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

5. Replacing the paragraph "Students provide the company a letter of credit signed by two endorsers, typically the student's parents, in which the endorsers agree to be responsible for up to $500 each if the student fails to pay any money owed to the company at the end of the summer. ,WITH , "The company requires no up-front inventory purchasing, and provides all training and initial sales supplies free of charge. Students provide the company with a Parent Support Letter, signed by the student's parents or guardians, in which the endorsers state their awareness and support of the student’s participation..

Reasons:

This seems to be a case where the reference is questionable as per WP:references , it is a copy of the letter of credit used by the company years ago and has some commentary below ,

Personal Findings:

This claim seems to be incorrect in respect to the references.The company ended using letters of credit years ago; and no parents or endorsers have any financial responsibility for a student’s failure to pay money owed at the end of summer..

Reply 2-APR-2019

Not done
The company ending the practice does not mean the practice never occurred. The paragraph's language should be altered to reflect both the new and the old practices.

 Spintendo  17:04, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

6. Removal of the paragraph "According to the anti-human trafficking charity Polaris, organizations often send their recruiters to target unemployed young people and college students with promises of high profits. As independent contractors, Southwestern Advantage avoids the Fair Labor Standards Act's mandates for minimum wage or overtime pay.

Reason:

There is no reference for the claim

Personal Findings:

it is a general article that explains facets of the industry as a whole and does not mention Southwestern Advantage.

Reply 2-APR-2019

 CN tag added
The ref tag for the general report was moved up a sentence and a cn tag was applied to the rest.

 Spintendo  17:15, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

7. Working "Expectations and Income" instead of "Working Conditions and Income:

Reasons:

Working Conditions imply that SouthWestern Advantage Contractors work in a facility, which is not true. The word "expectations" would be more clear since the workers are independent contractors.

Reply 2-APR-2019

Not done
A person need not work only in a facility to meet this definition. An independent contractor still experiences factors required of them by an employer, such as access to meal times, work hour requirements, and expenses. These would all constitute their working conditions.

 Spintendo  17:15, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

8. Removal of the words highlighted in bold from the sentence "Students typically have a host family near their sales area, generally alumni, family of other interns, or families found by door-to-door appeals. Housing is not guaranteed by the company.

Replacing it with, "Students typically have a host family near their sales area, generally alumni, family of other participants, previous host families, or families found by door-to-door appeals. The company assists participants in securing housing through a Host Family Coordinator, but ultimately the responsibility for securing and maintaining housing is on the participants..

Reasons:

• The first word, "interns" is incorrect, the reference does not mention "interns" but mentions "family"
• . "Housing is not guaranteed by the company", this claim is partially true as it does not shed light on how the company assists its participants in finding housing through a host family coordinator.

Reply 2-APR-2019

 Partly-done
The word interns was replaced with students.

 Spintendo  17:15, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

9. Removing the paragraph "Dealers report working 72 or more hours per week in the field, making 30 or more presentations each day, in addition to time spent on bookkeeping, talking to managers or at sales meetings held each Sunday. According to the company, in 2010 the average first-year dealer who stayed with the program for over 20 days grossed $2,415 per month before expenses, which usually range from $1,500 to $3,000.

Reasons:

There are 2 issues with this paragraph"

• It can be said that these claims are not cited.
• The reference for this claim does not work, "According to the company, in 2010 the average first-year dealer who stayed with the program for over 20 days grossed $2,415 per month before expenses,

Reply 2-APR-2019

 Additional sources needed tag added

 Spintendo  17:15, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

10. Request to review an addition (update) in the "Working Condition" section:

The company trains that a successful selling season involves 12 or more working hours per day during the summer, Monday through Saturday, contacting 30 or more families each day. The hours worked apply to time actually spent in the field and do not include time spent on record keeping, coaching calls, or at sales meetings. Total expenses for the summer vary by the individual, but commonly range from $1,500 to $3,000. As independent contractors, expenses are generally tax-deductible. There are no sales quotas. All participants are able to earn [[Passive income|residual income]] through the sales of the subscription apps and websites. The average total income of five-time US participants in the program was $137,522 in 2018.

Reply 2-APR-2019

Not done
It is unclear what is meant by five time US participants.

 Spintendo  17:41, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

11. Replace the sentence "Students are taught to indirectly ask if there are other families in the neighborhood who may have small children." with, "Salespeople prospect for clients using a combination of door-to-door cold calling and client referrals.

Reason:

This claim is taken from here, "He explained it is standard procedure for salesmen to ask customers for leads on other families in the neighborhood who may have small children. This is done to save time so salesmen can skip visiting the homes of people who would not be interested in the product.". Therefore, "taught to indirectly ask" sounds sneaky and perhaps, it is a misrepresentation because it is a Sales procedure for prospect clients and not a "secret" unethical procedure that the sales rep has to ask indirectly.

Reply 2-APR-2019

 Done
Leaving out the rest of the sentence is clearly misleading. The full quote was placed.

 Spintendo  17:41, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

12. Removing the sentence "Such questions have sometimes been regarded as suspicious, resulting in complaints to local police, close police scrutiny and even an arrest for disorderly conduct. "

Reason:

There is a reference for a claim, but the claim does not state what the reference does

Reply 2-APR-2019

 Claim removed
This too, is misleading. Placing more information into the article such as a quote as was done with the prior request, would not explain the nuances of why this individual was detained. As the police reported nothing wrong with this individual except his lack of permit, it would be better to remove the entire mention altogether.

 Spintendo  17:41, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

13. Expanding the the sentence to reflect the citation "Students are encouraged to leave their cellphones at home to focus on the task at hand, but it is not required."

Reason:

This claim is taken from here, "Mobile phone's that are not registered in the country a student is selling in can be highly expensive to use and also distracting throughout the daytime. The communication system in either country is excellent, students all have host families and inexpensive calling cards can be recommended by managers eliminating the need for mobile phone and the risk of a high bill at the end of the summer."

Perhaps we can say, "Students are encouraged not use their cell phones during day time because they are expensive and distracting.

Reply 2-APR-2019

 Claim removed.
This level of detail is too much for the article, per WP:NOTEVERYTHING.

 Spintendo  17:41, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

14. Replacing the words highlighted in bold: "At the end of the summer, products are shipped to the dealers, who revisit the homes where they made a sale to deliver the product and collect any balance due. Dealers generally pay their living expenses out of the down payments they collect, remitting the rest to the company to cover wholesale costs. Dealers return to headquarters in Nashville, where they settle accounts and receive a check for the season's earnings.

Reason:

• "Dealers" seems like a mistake, the products are shipped to US Participants, dealers are only part of that.
• "Earnings", the correct term here would be, "Savings"

Reply 2-APR-2019

Not done
Dealers is a term that is used by the company, and it seems that it would not be the case that US participants would be visiting their own homes to collect the monies.

 Spintendo  18:02, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

15. Removal of the sentence, "Some dealers are invited to return in subsequent years as managers, who recruit their own teams during the school year and earn a percentage commission on the sales of their team, as in multi-level marketing."

Reason:

This claim is not cited

Reply 2-APR-2019

 CN tag added


 Spintendo  18:02, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

16. Addition (update) for the "Working conditions and income" section

All participants who complete one or more years are provided with a professional career counselor for their career path and resume at no charge.

Reply 2-APR-2019

Not done
In the claim "are provided with a professional career counselor for their career path" is is not clear what is meant by the word for. It seems that whatever actions performed by the counselor on behalf of the student have been subsumed under the word "for" without any clarification on what they are exactly doing for the student's career path.

 Spintendo  18:02, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

17. Sorry to add this now, Please review this sentence in lead page, "The company has notably garnered significant criticism for its poor working conditions and exploitation of students, and it has been banned from many campuses in the United States and United Kingdom"

It seems to me that this part is based on the last section, I feel that this does reflect that section but deviates it. They were banned from those universities but that did not bring notable criticism as claimed here. When we say, "they garnered notable criticism", to me that means that the company had the attention of press and media and that notable sources criticised them in various publications. I am interested to know your opinion on this. Saad Ahmed2983 (talk) 17:59, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Reply 2-APR-2019

 Proposal required
If you would like to suggest a re-wording of this information, please feel free to do so here on the talk page.

 Spintendo  18:08, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Kind Regards, Saad Ahmed2983 (talk) 13:27, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

References

Requesting to review proposed changes

Hello, I am a paid editor, please find my disclosure here.

Thank you so much for your expert opinion and solutions. I have made a proposal as instructed and found a few deadlinks in the last section, i have added a follow up from the last coi request and a proposal for the lead page section.

1. Request to remove the sentence, "The Guild of Students at the University of Birmingham passed a motion in May 2006 banning the company from its premises and encouraging the University to do the same."

Reason:

The reference for the claim is not working or unreachable

Reply 3-APR-2019

Request declined.
There is no requirement that references in Wikipedia contain working URLs. Per WP:DEADREF, editors should wait ~24 months after the link is first tagged as dead before declaring that no web archive exists and deleting the source and claim.

 Spintendo  12:04, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

2. Request to remove the sentence, "In 2010, the University of Idaho announced that Southwestern Advantage is prohibited from recruiting on campus due to misconduct and violation of University and Career Center policies."

Reason:

The reference for the claim is not working or unreachable

Reply 3-APR-2019

Request declined.
There is no requirement that references in Wikipedia contain working URLs. Per WP:DEADREF, editors should wait ~24 months after the link is first tagged as dead before declaring that no web archive exists and deleting the source and claim.

 Spintendo  12:04, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

3. Request to slightly rewrite the sentence, "The company has notably garnered significant criticism for its poor working conditions and exploitation of students, and it has been banned from many campuses in the United States and United Kingdom." and replace it with, " The company has garnered criticism for its intensive challenges ​,​ and it has been banned from some ​campuses in the United States and United Kingdom. It is part of the Southwestern family of companies.​"

Reasons:

The claims regarding the words, "notably", "significant criticism", "Poor working conditions" and "exploitation of students" are not supported with a citation and deviates from the paragraph that it summarizes.

I see many problems with the current sentence in terms of neutrality, a dispassionate encyclopedic tone and its verifiability. I thought that a good solution would be to remove subjective and opinionated adjectives that are not cited, and let it read as more of a neutral statement. I am going to attempt to explain below, which words I have removed and which ones I have replaced.

(A). (Removed)Notably, significant criticism: Notably garnered significant criticism implies that the company received press and media coverage - which it did not.

(B). (Replaced)Poor working conditions​​​ (replaced with, "Intensive challenges", because program the has more intensive challenges than any other summer work program for college students.: The claim "poor working conditions" is not cited

(C).(Removed) exploitation of students: This claim is not cited

(D). (Replaced) Many :replaced with "some", the article makes mention of six campuses since 1977. Why and how is six considered to be “many” over a 42 year timeframe?

Reply 3-APR-2019

Claim reworded.
This claim was added by a single purpose account named NateBumber about one year ago. (Their single purpose being the addition of the claim in question.) When first confronted with the observation that the claim was unreferenced, the editor pointed to other claims "later in the article" which supposedly confirmed the claim, in a manner suggestive of MOS:CITELEAD. However, none of the references then or now approximate the phrasing used in the claim. "Notably significant criticism" is redundant, in that the two words notable and significant mean essentially the same thing. By placing them together, the single-use editor is practicing the lost art of hyperbole. Instead of supplying a reference which also uses this language, the editor leaves it to their colleagues to try and find references which use it, and to date they have not made much effort to find references for the claim. Their only comments on the matter appear in their edit summary, stating that there WP:MUSTBESOURCES or that the claim can't be removed because WP:TDLI. For these reasons I am altering the claim, moving it to the next paragraph after the lead. The claim now describes the general concerns raised over the direct selling industry as a whole; and concerns over the value of their transactions. The claim now states: Direct selling methods have raised questions over the ultimate value of the transactions entered into, both by the consumer as the person purchasing the product and the individual contractors who make the sales on behalf of third parties such as Southwestern Advantage.

 Spintendo  12:04, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

I mean, I rather protest the idea that I'm a "single purpose account"; I've been put in the position of so frequently re-adding that line simply because "single purpose accounts" have been repeatedly popping up to remove it without reason (not because WP:TDLI). This is the first attempt anyone has made to actually discuss the statement in question, which I appreciate. I don't think this new "general concerns over the direct selling industry" description accurately summarises the critiques of Southwestern Advantage, which (as seen in Southwestern Advantage#Bans from campuses) has been specifically banned from several campuses that still allow other forms of direct selling.

You're quite right that I didn't provide a reference for my language; most of my wiki editing isn't on Wikipedia, so I wasn't aware of the need for sources for individual words. While I cede that "notable" and "significant" may be a bit strong in combination, this link (archived by Archive.org) is a solid source for my use of the word "significant" (full quote: "DSU believes that the concerns raised about student welfare are of significant importance"). Note that the page, and the concerns it contains, is about Southwestern Advantage specifically, not direct selling as a whole. NateBumber (talk) 14:28, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

4. Request to review updated sentence for the "Working conditions and income" section(last coi request point 16),

You mentioned in the last coi request, "In the claim "are provided with a professional career counselor for their career path" is is not clear what is meant by the word for. It seems that whatever actions performed by the counselor on behalf of the student have been subsumed under the word "for" without any clarification on what they are exactly doing for the student's career path."

I agree, perhaps this would be a better alternative?

"All participants who complete one or more years are provided with a professional career counselor to assist with their résumé, job searching techniques, interviewing, and salary negotiation at no charge"

Reply 3-APR-2019

Not done
It's not clear whether the career counselor is provided before the completion of the 2 years or after.

 Spintendo  12:04, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

5. Request to review update from last coi request point 10 You mentioned in your feedback, "It is unclear what is meant by five time US participants."

Five-time US participant means Five-year participant

Would this be ok?

The company trains that a successful selling season involves 12 or more working hours per day during the summer, Monday through Saturday, contacting 30 or more families each day. The hours worked apply to time actually spent in the field and do not include time spent on record keeping, coaching calls, or at sales meetings. Total expenses for the summer vary by the individual, but commonly range from $1,500 to $3,000. As independent contractors, expenses are generally tax-deductible. There are no sales quotas. All participants are able to earn residual income through the sales of the subscription apps and websites. The average total income of Five-year participants in the program was $137,522 in 2018.

Kind regards, Saad Ahmed2983 (talk) 22:35, 3 April 2019 (UTC) Saad Ahmed2983 (talk) 22:20, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Reply 3-APR-2019

Not done
It states that the average total income of five year participants is such and such dollars, but it does not state whether working 5 years in a row is the average length of time a student spends in the program. By discussing dollar amounts and naming them as "averages" the pre-supposition is that the mentioning of working 5 years in a row is also an average.

 Spintendo  12:04, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

References

Proposed additions and changes

Hello, I am a paid editor, please find my disclosure here

Please find below, some additions and changes that I have proposed.

1. Request to review "update/addition" for the section, "Lobbying".

1a. Representatives of Southwestern Advantage testified in support of Michigan House Bill 5726 – an act to prohibit a person from promoting or participating in a pyramid promotion scheme.

Reply 13-APR-2019

 Clarification requested
Please provide the text of the testimony. Furthermore, the claim that this prohibits a person from promoting or participating in a pyramid promotion scheme does not clarify what the bill defines as this type of practice. "Pyramid promotional scheme" would be defined by the bill as any plan or operation in which an individual gives consideration for the opportunity to receive compensation that is derived primary [sic] from recruiting other individuals into the plan or operation rather than from the sale or consumption of products and services by ultimate users. The latter operations may still be considered differently in states where this bill does not go into effect. Mentioning it as a "prohibiting pyramid schemes" bill does not clarify this difference.

 Spintendo  01:47, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

1b. The bill was approved by the governor and filed with Secretary of State on August 15, 2018.

Reply 13-APR-2019

 Clarification requested
A page number was not provided.

 Spintendo  01:42, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

2. Request to review "update/addition" for the section, "Bans From Campuses".

Southwestern Advantage participants have represented over 1,600 campuses campuses worldwide; over 200 campuses were represented in 2018.

Reply 13-APR-2019

 Clarification requested
Please provide an independent source for this claim.

 Spintendo  01:42, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

3. Request to review proposed section named "Awards"

3a. Southwestern Advantage and its Global Director of Campus Relations, Dr. Ralph Brigham, were selected as recipients of the 2019 Charles F. Kettering Award.

3b. Nashville's Top Workplaces 2016.

3c. Better Business Bureau Torch Award for Ethical Commerce 2015.

3d. BBB Torch Awards recognize ethical business practices and marketplace trust.

3e. Nashville's Top Workplaces 2015.

3f. Nashville's Top Workplaces 2014.

3g. Nashville Business Journal Best In Business Award 2013.

Reply 13-APR-2019

Not done
Not independently notable in Wikipedia. If these are, please provide the WL's for each award.

 Spintendo  01:42, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

4. Request to review the the sentence is it is relevant to the subject, ""According to the anti-human trafficking charity Polaris, organizations often send their recruiters to target unemployed young people and college students with promises of high profits"

Reason: The cited article is about the Travelling Sales Industry and not related with Southwestern Advantage.

Please feel free to ask if you have any questions or concerns, i would be glad to answer them.

Reply 13-APR-2019

 Clarification requested
A travelling sales industry would conceivably include one where individuals are chosen to sell magazines and other products door-to-door throughout the United States. This outwardly appears to describe a business similar to the one the subject organization conducts.

 Spintendo  01:42, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Saad Ahmed2983 (talk) 14:09, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

References

Proposed changes

Hello, I am a paid editor, please find my disclosure here

Thank you so much for your response, please find below, the clarifications as requested:

1. Request to review clarification "update/addition" for the section, "Lobbying".

1a. Representatives of Southwestern Advantage testified in support of Michigan House Bill 5726 – an act to prohibit a person from promoting or participating in a pyramid promotion scheme.

Clarification requested Please provide the text of the testimony. Furthermore, the claim that this prohibits a person from promoting or participating in a pyramid promotion scheme does not clarify what the bill defines as this type of practice. "Pyramid promotional scheme" would be defined by the bill as any plan or operation in which an individual gives consideration for the opportunity to receive compensation that is derived primary [sic] from recruiting other individuals into the plan or operation rather than from the sale or consumption of products and services by ultimate users. The latter operations may still be considered differently in states where this bill does not go into effect. Mentioning it as a "prohibiting pyramid schemes" bill does not clarify this difference.

Clarification:

Here is the text copied from the citation:

"To the Speaker of the House of Representatives: Sir—I have this day approved and signed Enrolled House Bill No. 5726 (Public Act No. 186, I.E.), being An act to prohibit pyramid promotional schemes; to provide for the powers and duties of certain state and local governmental officers and entities; and to prescribe penalties and provide remedies. (Filed with the Secretary of State June 13, 2018, at 9:42 a.m.)"

Additional Comments:

Defined by the bill as any plan or operation in which an individual gives consideration for the opportunity to receive compensation that is derived primary [sic] from recruiting other individuals into the plan or operation rather than from the sale or consumption of products and services by ultimate users.

1b. The bill was approved by the governor and filed with Secretary of State on August 15, 2018.

Clarification requested:

A page number was not provided.

Clarification:

Please find the text at page 1910

2. Request to review proposed section named "Awards"

• Better Business Bureau Torch Award for Ethical Commerce 2015
• BBB Torch Awards recognize ethical business practices and marketplace trust.

3. Request to review the the sentence is it is relevant to the subject, ""According to the anti-human trafficking charity Polaris, organizations often send their recruiters to target unemployed young people and college students with promises of high profits"

Reason: The cited article is about the Travelling Sales Industry and not related with Southwestern Advantage.

Clarification requested: A travelling sales industry would conceivably include one where individuals are chosen to sell magazines and other products door-to-door throughout the United States. This outwardly appears to describe a business similar to the one the subject organization conducts.

Clarification:

Southwestern Advantage is neither in the traveling sales crew industry or uses traveling sales crews. By its own name, traveling sales crews are both nomadic and sell in crews.Southwestern advantage participants take up residence in their sales localities, meaning they are not traveling when they are selling – they are living in the communities where they are working and pay local taxes the same as other local business people do. A person relocating for an outside sales job does not make that individual a traveling salesperson, nor does going door-to-door or business-to-business in the community where you have relocated to live. Participants also sell independently, not as crews – as is stated under the lobbying section of the page: "The bill was passed, but in a form that applies only to sales workers who travel in groups of two or more.

^{The bill did not apply to Southwestern Advantage. The Polaris article writes of the traveling sales crew industry, which Southwestern Advantage is not involved in.}

Thank you so much again,

Kind Regards, Saad Ahmed2983 (talk) 13:28, 16 April 2019 (UTC)