Talk:Romania in the Eurovision Song Contest

Worst result

Just saw this on my watchlist due to the protection being added. As there seems to be a bit of an edit war, we should discuss the issue. I agree with (seemingly) everyone else that "11th SF" should be listed in the infobox. This is the standard format for these "country in Eurovision" articles. "Did not qualify" is what I've seen used as a placeholder immediately after a semi-final until the actual semi-final placings are announced shortly after the Contest's final. The current version "Did not qualify: 2018" actually tells the reader that Romania's worst placing was a contest they never competed in. Grk1011 (talk) 20:52, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

@Grk1011: Hi there and thank you for opening this discussion. A country's "worst result" in the infobox parameters can either be the lowest ranking in a Grand Final, the time(s) a country scored null points and the times it did not qualify. Since Romania has always qualified for the final apart from 2018, this is their worst result; the 22nd position in 1998 does not need to be mentioned anymore, as it took part in the Grand Final. Something like "11th SF" is used when a country did not reach the final more than once, determining which of the non-qualifications was the "worst" according to the place achieved in the semi-final. If you feel like I'm doing any mistakes, I think it would be best to ping some experienced users on this subject. Best regards; Cartoon network freak (talk) 21:08, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

I have been working on Eurovision articles for over 10 years now (though much less frequently for the past 5 or so years). I actually helped redesign the Infobox so that it includes the fields it currently does. I agree that 1998 is no longer relevant in the infobox as a worst result, but "did not qualify" (for what?) would be non-standard and as I said above, it's misleading. Grk1011 (talk) 21:25, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

@Grk1011: I agree with you now and changed it to your suggestion. Cartoon network freak (talk) 04:54, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Great! Thanks for improving the page and good luck with your GA review! Grk1011 (talk) 13:28, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Voting history

@Dominikcapuan: there is nothing wrong with having the voting history in the article, but you have to state where the information came from. Who calculated those numbers and what reputable entity published the information? If you look at other Eurovision articles, as they've become more robust and moved up the reliability chain, some of the charts were redone to remove more recent years which do not have a source. I believe the only source out there goes until 2015. There had been a tendency for users to just tabulate the data themselves and update the charts. That is not allowed since it is original research. Grk1011 (talk) 19:19, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Romania in the Eurovision Song Contest/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Eddie891 (talk · contribs) 00:40, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

• I feel this should be classified as a list -- and is thus ineligible for GA. Convince me otherwise, please. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 00:40, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
  • I agree. The list is longer then the article itself. The contest history could turn things around here, but it is incredibly brief.--DasallmächtigeJ (talk) 12:40, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
    • Perhaps it's just not as in depth as it could be since Romania's participation doesn't go back as far as some of the other countries in the contest. Take United Kingdom in the Eurovision Song Contest for example. Grk1011 (talk) 17:33, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
      • @Eddie891: Please close this nomination. I will try to expand the article further and then I'll write you back. Greetings, Cartoon network freak (talk) 07:14, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

        Cartoon network freak, OK. I will happily re-review, and please be careful not to expand it too much, to the point it becomes overly redundant Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 12:53, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

        • Eddie891 Hi! Just one question: do you think this list could be somehow adequate of being nominated for FL? I now see that it's very hard to expand. If so, would you work with me on the language a bit? Thank you, Cartoon network freak (talk) 05:44, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

          Cartoon network freak, Personally, I think so (but you should ask for a second opinion, given that Lebanon in the Eurovision Song Contest is a GA currently). I do feel it should be a list based upon the fact that it is a list of Romania's appearances in the Eurovision Song Contest.

          • I'll certainly work on the prose with you Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 21:47, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

          • @Eddie891: You can leave comments here or on the talk page. It's up to you. MANY thanks Cartoon network freak (talk) 22:16, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

            @Eddie891: Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Romania in the Eurovision Song Contest/archive1 Cartoon network freak (talk) 09:31, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Comments

I've done some copy editing, feel free to revert it. I arranged the lede into a 'overview' paragraph and 'preformance' para, let me know what you think. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 22:31, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

I would suggest merging Selecția Națională into this article. Typically the Eurovision-centric selection processes are part of these types of articles, only having their own page if they are notable in a way that is unrelated to the contest, like Melodifestivalen for example. Grk1011 (talk) 22:50, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

• Do note that the parent article List of countries in the Eurovision Song Contest is an FL, and the Lebanon article dates to a 2008 review by a banned user Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 23:33, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

• @Eddie891: I did some more minor changes to the lead, but I think it was greatly put together by you. I also conducted the merging you suggested; all needed information was already here, so I only merged the page. Cartoon network freak (talk) 05:39, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

  Cartoon network freak, please check that the logo's fair use rationale is still valid for this page Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 23:18, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

• @Eddie891: I removed the logo now since I recalled that logos shouldn't be used by two pages at a time. Cartoon network freak (talk) 06:12, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

  Cartoon network freak, did some more ce, let me know what you think Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 22:08, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

• @Eddie891: I think your edits greatly added to the article's grammar and flow. Thank you Cartoon network freak (talk) 17:15, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

I also worked on the tables and made them more sortable. I for example removed some of the notes and put them in written text. Both tables are perfectly sortable now. Thoughts on this? Cartoon network freak (talk) 18:59, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Cartoon network freak, looks good! Do you mind explaining the "final" "points" "semi" and "points" columns to me (essentially how the Eurovision functions) as a non Eurovision follower so I can better comment on it? From the prose end, I'd say you're pretty good. You might get hit on sources because of the CS1 maint and the fact that many of them are offline, but I'm not really sure how to fix those. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 22:56, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

@Eddie891: Hi again! As of the 2004 contest, the countries participating at Eurovision are split in two semi-finals. The top 10 from each semi-final go through to the grand final. That's pretty much how Eurovision works... As for the sources, I don't think that's a problem. It's non-controversial information that could be also cited otherwise if really requested. Any other issues? Is the grammar ok now? Cartoon network freak (talk) 16:49, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Cartoon network freak, Hi and great work!

• The 'note' needs to be cited. Other than that, the prose is good by me.

 Done Great!

• Maybe make a general source for the table of contestants in the style of The list of Nobel laureates, or otherwise make the source of it more clear.

I already have "The following lists Romania's entries for the Eurovision Song Contest along with their result" followed by the source, so I think that is enough. It's not really that clever in my opinion to make a "General references" section with only one ref.

• For accessibility, check that all tables have scope cols and rows per MOS:ACCESS (specifically MOS:DTAB)

I don't use scope rows since we have a sortable list and when sorting, scope rows would disappear. I have one scope col in the first table since it's needed. Am I missing your point? Did you mean something else?

• Ask an experienced contributor other than us whether it should be nommed for FL or GA. There will be minor things, but that is it from me. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 22:46, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

@Eddie891: Hi!! I think I need some more explanation on one of your comments... Greets; Cartoon network freak (talk) 21:14, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Cartoon network freak, that was just my FLC checklist, I didn't really look for anything too closely. if you're happy with it, I'm happy with it Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 01:33, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Table formatting

Currently, the table features redundant symbols and leaves important information, such as Romania's status in 1995. More importantly, the table does not match other country's related pages. This change should be done to keep uniformity, to add information about Romania's participation that have been left out in this current table, and to create a neat table that avoids redundancy.

The table is a Featured List candidate, thus its difference in formatting to other similar pages. The symbols are not redundant and are meant to help people with colorblindness identify the respective cells. As for the 1995 participation, Romania did not participate and it's mentioned in "Contest history". Adding this to the table would be useless since we would need a long colspan cell; this is not to be included in tables that can be sorted. The same goes for why "Failed to qualify", for example, isn't rowspanned (when you sort the table, the rowspan disappears and you have to refresh the page). Cartoon network freak (talk) 22:30, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Citing the the years where they failed to qualify when the official cite doesn't count it, such as in 1995, is still relevant and pertinent information that should be included on a Wikipedia page that is meant to inform of all the attempts of Romania participating in the Eurovision Song Contest.