User talk:SharabSalam

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Tabun oven

Hi, Sharab Salam. I have just expanded on several sections in the article Tabun oven. I have translated excerpts taken from a book entitled Halikhot Teiman. I have made use of a Arabic words, which I transliterated into English. Perhaps, if you can find the time, you can add the real Arabic script alongside of these transliterated words, such as the splinters of wood, called in Arabic: luṣwah; or the cakes of sheep dung, called in Arabic kibe; or the small tree that grows in the Yemen called in Arabic jiʿdin, and from where they took small splinters of wood for lighting the tabun. Your assistance here is much appreciated.Davidbena (talk) 02:01, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Davidbena, I don't know most of these words, I will add what I think I know. The other words seem to be in a different dialect of mine. There are lots of words that I don't know from Amran, Sana'a and South Yemen dialects.

I have a question. The Tabun and Tandour are the same thing?.

I guess Tabun is mostly used in Syria and Lebanon because they use it to make Pita. It is also used to make Pizza in most countries. While Tondour/Tanour is the one that is used in Yemen. In Yemen it is sometimes called Tabun but mostly it is called Tanour. I think it could be mistakenly called Tabun.

The Tandour/Tanour is what we use in Yemen. This Al Jazeera 6 mins video shows a woman from Taiz using Tanour https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZb8kQuX0jU. It looks different from the Tabun (judging from the Tabun images that I saw in Google image).

In where I live in Taiz we use Tanour, it is made of burned clay. After we buy it we also add lots of clay around it so the heat don't go out and it become strong. I think, and I am not sure, that the Lwsiah is a think piece of wood. We put it inside the Tanour(Mafi). It helps make the Tanour stay in heat for long time. There is a hole at the bottom of the Tanour(Mafi), it is called "Ayin al-Mafi" the Tanour is called "Mafi" in rural areas of Yemen.

I don't know about the cakes that are made of sleep dung. There is something called Ṣirdad (in Arabic:صرداد) which is dried cow dung that is used to fire the Tanour instead of using wood. Only few old people do that. Most people don't do it anymore. I think Kibe could be old thing and only old people know about it. I currently have no idea what it is.

For the tree that is used to lighten the Tanour, I don't know what "jiʿdin" is. Are you sure about your transliteration?. I think the tree could be Acacia sensu lato or Leptadenia pyrotechnica.--SharabSalam (talk) 09:46, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Davidbena for your work in Yemen-related articles. I will do more research and see if I can add more things and if I can find the Arabic script for your transliteration..--SharabSalam (talk) 10:06, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Salam, asalam aleikum. I do not know if the tandour is the same as a tabun. My source was referring to the tabun (also called tanour), and it is made of burnt clay. There are different ways of making it. As for my transliteration of the Arabic words into English, they may not be accurate. I transliterated them from the Hebrew, using the equivalent Arabic-English letters. Yes, the Lwsiah is what our author was referring to. It's a piece of wood. As for the tree, I'll try to find out its scientific name the next time I visit the University in Jerusalem. There is a botany book which I saw there, describing the flora in Yemen. In the dialect of Arabic spoken in San'a in the early 20th-century, they called Ṣirdad (in Arabic:صرداد) by the name kibe (in Arabic: كِبة). Be well.Davidbena (talk) 13:52, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Davidbena In my personal opinion the Tannour (also called "Mafi") is the one that is used and was in Yemen. So the content you added about Yemen might be about Tandoor not Tabun article. The Tabun term seems to be misused at some point. In Yemen the word "Tabunah" (Arabic: طابونه) means wheat flour so some people used the term "Tabun" to refer to Tannour. The reason why wheat flour was called "Tabunah" is because there was no wheat flour in Yemen. The corn

flour is the one that was mostly used in Yemen then a foreign company came to Yemen and produced wheat flour. The company brand/product was called "Tabunah" and so Yemenis called the wheat flour Tabunah. This is just my theory.--SharabSalam (talk) 04:56, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the Rabbi from Yemen (Yosef Qafih) who wrote the article about the Yemeni tannour calls it by two names: He wrote in his book: "Every house is used to stoking the oven twice a day; once for the morning meal in a smaller oven, called ṣuʿṭah, and once more at noon time in the larger oven, called simply tannour." (End Quote). Here, in Israel, we are accustomed to calling such clay ovens by the name tabun. I have never heard a person here, in this country, call the clay oven by the name tandour. In your place in Yemen, they also use a different name for the tannour, where it is also called "Mafi," but even here we're speaking about the same thing. In this country, they call it tabun.Davidbena (talk) 18:00, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Davidbena I was thinking about the "ṣuʿṭah" it is actually called "ṣuʿ'dah or ṣuʿ'd (صُعد). The basic example of ṣuʿ'd is just three stones together and some wood and fire. You probably have seen it, where a group of people sitting in the desert or somewhere alone and cooking meat at night. The ṣuʿ'd is the same or very similar. I don't know what it is called in English.

The Tabun and the Tandoor are different things, it's not about whether they are made of clay or not, it is about how they look like and how they work.--SharabSalam (talk) 18:16, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Davidbena, you can't make Pizza with Tandoor.

This is Tabun

This is how Tandoor looks like

Notice how the way you put the bread inside it, is different. The Tabun is the one that is used in North Arabia to make Pita and also in the West to make Pizza.

You can't make a Pizza with Tandoor.--SharabSalam (talk) 18:26, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your photographs were helpful. To clarify matters, the older Yemenite Jews here, in our country, still make the tannour. Bread is stuck on the inner wall of the oven; it is not used to make pizza, but if they wanted to they could do so. The people here call the same oven "tabun". They do not use the word Tandour. The words tannour and tabun are used interchangeably here, in our country.Davidbena (talk) 18:40, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I hope the pictures helped. The Tannour has a cylindrical shape. If you searched in Google images for "Pizza oven" you would only see the Tabun not the Tandoor. You don't usually make Pizza with Tandoor because as you said you put the bread in the inner wall of the Tannour, vertically not horizontally, everything on the pizza will fall to the Tannour if you put it vertically.--SharabSalam (talk) 19:01, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Precisely. Here, too, the tannour has always a cylindrical shape, and they call it here, in our country, also by the name "tabun." The "tabun" may actually be a generic word for primitive oven.Davidbena (talk) 19:11, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your edit here is not true. I know it is called Tannur but thats not the true name.. The Tannur and the Tandoor are the same thing. The Tabun is completely a different thing. The Tandoor/Tannour is the one that is cylindrical the Tabun is not. Please Google "Pizza oven" and "Pita oven" then click on images, what you see is Tabun. It is not cylindrical.

Do people in Israel in general call the oven that makes the Pizza, Tannur? (I am not talking about the Jews from Yemen).

Some people in Yemen do mistakenly refer to the Tandoor/Tannour as Tabun which I think happened because what I said above, a foreign company made a product called Tabunah, which is wheat flour –in Yemen wheat flour was not known back then– then the term meaning expanded to also refer to the Tandoor by the term Tabun. Su'd is not Tabun. It is a small fire that was used to cook things back in old times there was no gas in most of Yemen.--SharabSalam (talk) 09:41, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@SharabSalam: So, it all comes down to semantics. I was not so much concerned about the original meaning of the word "tabun," but rather the connotation or usage of this word TODAY, here, in Israel. Perhaps a side-note can be appended to the article, making note of its varied meanings. Today, if you look on YouTube or even in other articles entitled "tabun" (Hebrew: טאבון), you will be shown the cylindrical shape, and one that is usually made of clay. Again, the shape is not critical. There can be other shapes as well. Jews in Yemen did not call their cylindrical oven "tandour," but rather "tannour." Some may have also been square-shaped. Today, the cylindrical oven is called by them here, in this country, "tabun." I wish to call your attention to the fact that the dialect of Arabic spoken in Yemen often differs from the dialect of Arabic spoken here, in the north. If you'd like, I can put you in touch with an Arab PhD who either taught or studied at Haifa University, and you can ask him personally about this one word "tabun" and how it is used here. Davidbena (talk) 03:26, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Davidbena, see what it says in Tandoor#Etymology, the word "Tanour" is the same as "Tandoor". I didn't say Yemenis say "Tandoor", they say "Tanour" which is the same as Tandoor. The Tabun is not cylindrical, I mean most of the time not cylindrical, the trip as traditional ones looks cylindrical. I don't know how to explain it but when you cook a "Tabun bread" you don't put it in the wall of the oven but in it's floor. The Tanour bread is in the wall of the oven not in the floor. Also, the modern Tabun is the same oven that is used to cook Pizza. I will start a discussion there soon and see if we get more opinions about it.--SharabSalam (talk) 05:29, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So, the problem arises with the word "tandoor" which I am no expert on. I do know that there is a separate article on the word Tandoor. I will write the Professor from Haifa University and ask him about the words. To the best of my knowledge, today, here in Israel, "tabun" is also used for the clay oven in general, whether the bread is baked on the floor of the oven or stuck to its inner wall. If I am mistaken, I will come back to you and apologize. Often, words have a tendency to change in meaning, and since "tabun" is not a pure Hebrew word, perhaps we, in this country, are using the word incorrectly. The word "tannour" is, both, a Hebrew and Arabic word. The Hebrew word is not bound by its shape. Even if one sticks the bread to the inner wall of the clay oven, or lays the dough on the floor of the clay oven, it is STILL called by us "tannour." The word "tandoor" is NOT used by us here, in Israel, and rightly so. The article says that the word "tandoor" is derived from the word "tannour." We already use the word "tannour," and it has a broad meaning.Davidbena (talk) 17:07, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, have you not heard of words like this in Yemeni Arabic = كِبيِة / كِبِى? I might be spelling it wrong. It is the name given for cakes of processed sheep droppings, one in the plural and the other in the singular.Davidbena (talk) 19:01, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Davidbena, I know a word that might be related. Again, in Yemen there are lots of dialects and I speak the Ibbi dialect. The word is Makbi مكبي which means smoked, smoked with a small tree that grows in the mountains, we call that plant, (Ḥumar) حمر. There is Makbi milk, Makbi ghee etc. Note that the term Ḥumar also means Tamarind in Yemeni Arabic. The word كِبيِة / كِبِى could be related to the word Makbi which means smoked but I have never heard about these cakes. I have heard about Surdud which is Cow dung--SharabSalam (talk) 19:45, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Davidbena, Are you sure that these cakes are like the cakes that we eat or is it a metaphor, like Dung cakes??--SharabSalam (talk) 20:10, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

SharabSalam, My understanding from what the Rabbi wrote is that he was referring to "dung cakes", but even so, he writes specifically that they were processed (prepared) by the Bedouins for selling in the market places, and used as tinder.Davidbena (talk) 20:30, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Davidbena, So what you are talking about is called Surdud in my dialect. The word you gave Kibi might be its name in Sana'a. I also noticed that your book says Su'tah instead of Su'dah which shows that it is using Sana'an dialect like Ali Abdullah Salah used to say Sa'tah instead of Sa'dah.--SharabSalam (talk) 20:46, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I see. So feel free to write the correct Arabic spelling. You are more expert than I in the Arabic language of Yemen. By the way, the late President, Ali Abdullah Saleh, was a great man. He was merciful. When I was arrested in Yemen, back in 1980, he gave the order to release me from the prison. I will always remember him for good.Davidbena (talk) 21:22, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

SharabSalam, I just received a reply (in Arabic) from the Arab who holds a PhD from the University of Haifa, answering my inquiry about "tabun" and "tannour." He searched a well-known Arabic lexicon (لسان العرب), and I will paste it here for you to read:

لسان العرب

وَطَبَنَ النارَ يَطْبِنُها طَبْناً: دفنها كي لا تَطْفَأ، والطّابُون:

مَدْفِنُها. ويقال: طابِنْ هذه الحَفِيرَة وطامِنْها.

تنر: التَّنُّورُ: نَوْعٌ مِنَ الْكَوَانِينِ. الْجَوْهَرِيُّ: التِّنُّورُ الَّذِي يُخْبَزُ فِيهِ. وَفِي الْحَدِيثِ:

قَالَ لِرَجُلٍ عَلَيْهِ ثَوْبٌ مُعَصْفَرٌ: لَوْ أَن ثَوْبَك فِي تَنُّورِ أَهْلِكَ أَو تَحْتَ قدْرِهم كَانَ خَيْرًا؛ فَذَهَبَ فأَحرقه ؛ قَالَ ابْنُ الأَثير: وإِنما أَراد أَنك لَوْ صَرَفْتَ ثَمَنَهُ إِلى دَقِيقٍ تَخْبِزُهُ أَو حَطَبٍ تَطْبُخُ بِهِ كَانَ خَيْرًا لَكَ، كأَنه كَرِهَ الثَّوْبَ الْمُعَصْفَرَ. والتَّنُّور: الَّذِي يُخْبَزُ فِيهِ؛ يُقَالُ: هُوَ فِي جَمِيعِ اللُّغَاتِ كَذَلِكَ. وَقَالَ أَحمد بْنُ يَحْيَى: التَّنُّور تَفْعُول مِنَ النَّارُ؛ قَالَ ابْنُ سِيدَهْ: وَهَذَا مِنَ الْفَسَادِ بِحَيْثُ تَرَاهُ وإِنما هُوَ أَصل لَمْ يُسْتَعْمَلْ إِلَّا فِي هَذَا الْحَرْفِ وَبِالزِّيَادَةِ، وَصَاحِبُهُ تَنَّارٌ. والتَّنُّور: وَجْهُ الأَرض، فَارِسِيٌّ معرَّب، وَقِيلَ: هُوَ بِكُلِّ لُغَةٍ. وَفِي التَّنْزِيلِ الْعَزِيزِ: حَتَّى إِذا جاءَ أَمْرُنا وَفارَ التَّنُّورُ ؛

قَالَ عَلِيٍّ، كَرَّمَ اللَّهُ وَجْهَهُ: هُوَ وَجْهُ الأَرض

، وَكُلُّ مَفْجَرِ ماءٍ تَنُّورٌ. قَالَ أَبو إِسحاق: أَعلم اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ أَن وَقْتَ هَلَاكِهِمْ فَوْرُ التَّنُّورِ، وَقِيلَ فِي التَّنُّورِ أَقوال: قِيلَ التَّنُّورُ وَجْهُ الأَرض، وَيُقَالُ: أَراد أَن الْمَاءَ إِذا فَارَ مِنْ نَاحِيَةِ مَسْجِدِ الْكُوفَةِ، وَقِيلَ: إِن الْمَاءَ فَارَ مِنْ تَنُّورِ الْخَابِزَةِ، وَقِيلَ أَيضاً: إِن التَّنُّور تَنْوِيرُ الصُّبْح. وَرُوِيَ عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ: التَّنُّورُ الَّذِي بِالْجَزِيرَةِ وَهِيَ عَيْنُ الوَرْدِ، وَاللَّهُ أَعلم بِمَا أَراد. قَالَ اللَّيْثُ: التَّنُّورُ عَمَّتْ بِكُلِّ لِسَانٍ. قَالَ أَبو مَنْصُورٍ: وَقَوْلُ مَنْ قَالَ إِن التَّنُّورَ عَمَّتْ بِكُلِّ لِسَانٍ يَدُلُّ عَلَى أَن الِاسْمَ فِي الأَصل أَعجمي فَعَرَّبَتْهَا الْعَرَبُ فَصَارَ عربيّاً على بنار فَعُّول، وَالدَّلِيلُ عَلَى ذَلِكَ أَن أَصل بِنَائِهِ تَنَرَ، قَالَ: وَلَا نَعْرِفُهُ فِي كَلَامِ الْعَرَبِ لأَنه مُهْمَلٌ، وَهُوَ نَظِيرُ مَا دَخَلَ فِي كَلَامِ الْعَرَبِ مِنْ كَلَامِ الْعَجَمِ مِثْلُ الدِّيبَاجِ وَالدِّينَارِ وَالسُّنْدُسِ وَالْإِسْتَبْرَقِ وَمَا أَشبهها وَلَمَّا تَكَلَّمَتْ بِهَا الْعَرَبُ صَارَتْ عَرَبِيَّةً. وَتَنَانِيرُ الْوَادِي: مَحَافِلُهُ؛ قَالَ الرَّاعِي: فَلَمَّا عَلَا ذَاتَ التِّنَانِيرِ صَوْتُهُ، ... تَكَشَّفَ عَنْ بَرْقٍ قَليلٍ صَواعِقُهْ وَقِيلَ: ذَاتَ التَّنَانِيرِ هُنَا مَوْضِعٌ بِعَيْنِهِ؛ قَالَ الأَزهري: وَذَاتُ التَّنَانِيرِ عَقَبَةٌ بِحْذاء زُبَالة مِمَّا يلي المغرب منها.

I hope this will help clarify matters. If the lexicon brings out anything that is new, and which we have not covered in the article [[Tabun oven], please let me know and feel free to make the necessary changes in the article.Davidbena (talk) 21:36, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Davidbena, most of the text isn't about the oven. You know... Arabic language has lots of meaning for one word.

Nevertheless, I will translate the parts that are about the oven.

First "Tabun": The word Taban' means "to bury something" and “Taban' al-Nar” means "buried the fire" so it doesn't extinguish. “Tabun” is where the fire is buried.

Secondly Tanour which is a lot of content. Most of what you wrote is about Tannour. It seems like if it is the word that was used in the old times in the Arab world. So the author tell a story to illustrate the meaning of Tannour. He says that there was a guy who was wearing a type of clothes that is stained by an expensive stain. While he was walking, some people told him, "If you put your cloth in the Tannour or in the stove(Su'd), it would have been better for you" end of the story. They meant if he brought food and fuel to his Tannour oven by the money he used to buy his expensive clothes it would have been better for him. Then the author says that the Tannour is an oven that iused to make bread.. the other content is about other things that are unrelated. ~~The stain that is mentioned in the book is called Al-Mu'asfar. I was reading a book about ancient Yemen clothes (mostly about Yemeni cloaks) and I found this name.~~ BTW, I know this Arabic lexicon but it doesn't offer a clear-cut answer--SharabSalam (talk) 22:13, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I checked the book but the name of the stain, it is 'Asba. It sounded similar in Arabic so nevermind what I crossed above.--SharabSalam (talk) 22:33, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. So I will write him again and make my question to him more direct, and ask him what is the difference between "tabun" and "tannour," and is there any difference in its shape or usage.Davidbena (talk) 22:19, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

SharabSalam, I received another reply from Dr. Ibrahim Basal, who replied to my questions by sending to me the name of a book and author who has written about this subject: شكري عراف، الارض الانسن والجهد, pages 53-54. Unfortunately, I could not find this book at our University library. The author has a Wikipedia page which you can see here. I'll continue to ask elderly Yemenite Jews here, in our country.Davidbena (talk) 21:35, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Davidbena, I think someone whos from India, Pakistan, Iran could help more because they also have it there. For me, I didnt know what Tabun means. What we use is called Tannour which is also called Tandoor--SharabSalam (talk) 22:17, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

SharabSalam, I see. Hopefully, I'll be able to sit down in the coming days with a few older Yemenis who recently moved here to our country from Yemen and who have built for themselves these earthen ovens in their courtyards. I'll personally ask them what they called them in Yemen, and I'll ask them about their shape and design. Yesterday, while visiting the University library in Jerusalem, I saw an interesting book (of many volumes), entitled Arbeit und sitte in Palästina, written in German by Gustaf Dalman. In volume 4 he describes the ovens made by the Arabs in Palestine. He also has a section of black-and-white photographs of these ovens; some are made of stone, and others of clay. No two ovens are alike. The larger ones shown in the photographs he calls by their Arabic name tannur, all of which have an opening in the top, rather than in the side. They appear to be made of clay. The ovens with an opening in their sides and which are completely closed at the top except for a small air hole in its middle for ventilation he calls by the Arabic names ʿarṣa (furn). They too seem to be made of clay. One is made with a fire-pit beneath its side opening. What I found most helpful is that in the same book he shows a diagram (drawings) of two kinds of tabun. In one drawing, he writes for its caption "the West Palestinian tabun," which was made in a circular shape (presumably of clay) but with only one opening at its top, and which opening had a removable clay door, used for sealing it and preserving the heat. The fire was lit on the inside of the oven's floor, made of stone. In the other drawing, the caption reads "the East Palestinian tabun (furn)," and it is entirely made of clay, including its floor bottom, and it has two openings, one on the top and one in its side. Both openings are made with a removable door, used for sealing the oven and trapping its heat inside. In one photograph, he shows what he calls tabun, a large structure made of stones, and with an opening in its side. Another photo shows a smaller tabun made of clay, with an opening at its top, concerning which tabun the author writes that it was bottomless, meaning, it was portable and could be placed on any flat surface for building a fire. This book is an eye-opener for me.Davidbena (talk) 23:06, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Davidbena, does the book "Halikhot Teiman" say Tabun or Tannour?--SharabSalam (talk) 23:23, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The book "Halikhot Teiman" mentions only two types of ovens: tannour (which Qafih says was large) and ṣuʿṭah (which Qafih says was small). He does not mention tabun at all.Davidbena (talk) 23:33, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Davidbena, See etymology section in Tandoor, basically Tannour is one of the names of Tandoor. I understand that in Israel they call Tannour, Tabun but thats where the content that you added about Yemen should be, in Tandoor. In a section called "Yemen Tannour". If I was in my village I would have provided images from there. I have one in our home in my village. The ṣuʿṭah is just a traditional Wood-burning stove.--SharabSalam (talk) 23:41, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with moving the content to Tandoor is that "Tandoor" is only a provincial word, not used by Jews in Yemen, nor by Israelis, nor by most Westerners. Moreover, in the Etymology section of the article "Tandoor," it clearly states there that the word's derivative is from "Tannour," a word which is used already, both, in the Arabic language and in the Hebrew language. The Hebrew word "tannour", by definition, is not limited to any size or shape, so long as it has the basic shape of an oven. Where the oven's door opening is situated is irrelevant. The modern-Arabic word "tabun" is now used in Israel to describe a "tannour" made of earthen material. This article is about a tabun oven, and from speaking with Arabs here, one has told me that he understands this word to mean any clay oven where bread can be baked by sticking the dough to its inner wall. Perhaps it would be better if we'd make this distinction early in this article, namely, that the tabun has different connotations for people in different places, just as Gustaf Dalman has written about in his book, and has even illustrated and photographed in his book. It is important to note here that the general term "tannour" is not bound by the Arabic word tabun and its definition, nor does the Arabic word tabun change the intrinsic meaning of the Hebrew word "tannour." The word "tannour" is inclusive.Davidbena (talk) 00:07, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

One more thing: The major problem that I have with the article Tandoor is that it shows images of their "tandoor", which images show forms and basic designs that are TOTALLY ALIEN to people here, in Israel and in Yemen. Our "tannours" and our "tabuns" are NOT made in that way at all, but rather like those images shown in the Tabun oven article. To apply our content to that article, judging by the design of their ovens, it would be grossly misleading to our readers. Davidbena (talk) 00:16, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Davidbena No, the photos in Tandoor article is what we use in Yemen. It doesn't matter if the photos look alien to Israel. We are talking about what is used in Yemen not Israel. To me what looks new is the Tabun. We use Tabun in Yemen but for making Pita which are not traditional Yemeni breads. See these photos from Sana'a [1], [2] they look like the photos in Tandoor/Tannour not Tabun.--SharabSalam (talk) 09:34, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So, you are talking about the modern-designed tannour, one that is pre-fabricated. The idea is the same as the older ones built of clay and stubble. The YouTube link that you sent me shows a similar tannour, though older. My point is this. We already know the meaning of "tannour." The word is also used in our own language. We do not need a "Tandoor" article to teach us what a "tannour" is. The "tannour" is cylindrical, for the most. They put bread into the "tannour" from the top. Dalman's book also shows the Palestinian "tannour," and they seem to be built more thick. Some are not entirely cylindrical. My suggestion would be for you to add another section in the "Tabun oven" article, and in it describe the Yemeni clay oven used in villages.Davidbena (talk) 12:32, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Davidbena, the photos that I showed you, are the same Tannour that is used in villages but before they are installed. When they are installed in a home, people put additional clay or cement around it then they become like the one you saw in the video of Yemeni Tannour.--SharabSalam (talk) 15:08, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I see. That's very interesting.Davidbena (talk) 15:28, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Check Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard

Please check Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard. You Persian (talk) 14:15, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Assalamwalakum

Assalamwakum Talat parvez (talk) 06:11, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ahed Tamimi

Hi, the date in both articles is September 2018, and not 2019, as you wrongly wrote in the article. Even if it is updated to 2018, there was no travel ban. See, for example, here for her visit in London in May 2019. Please revert yourself. Noon (talk) 18:32, 10 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Noon, I found this today in my Facebook timeline and I thought it is from this month. I think the Israeli authority banned Ahed from a specific travel that she was planning to Europe per the sources which I didn't make a deeper look to them,

They had planned to leave on Friday morning, but the Palestinian Authority liaison committee informed the family that Israeli authorities refused them permission to leave. Bassem Tamimi told Anadolu that authorities did not provide any reason for the ban.

--SharabSalam (talk) 19:54, 10 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Mr SharabSalam,

Recently, I have edited pages such as Ibn Haytham, and changed it from Arab to Iraqi. I did this as many of the other Wikipedia pages I have seen label the person: Persian, Phoenician, Egyptian, Syrian etc. I do not understand why you constantly reverse my edits, as I am not writing anything rude, or factually wrong. An administrator's job is to make sure there is no false information and to prevent any problems, however as an administrator you seem intent on getting rid of my edits. I am not in any way attempting to argue with you, I am just genuinely intrigued in why you keep changing my edits,

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crazygalll12 (talk • contribs) 21:05, 10 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Mr.Crazygalll12,

The vast majority of sources use the term Arab when describing Ibn al-Haitham so the the term "Iraqi" is non-defining. And the term Iraqi is not an ethnicity but a nationality. Also we already stated the he was born in Basra which is in modern day Iraq.--SharabSalam (talk) 21:15, 10 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, that's not correct. Ethnicity=nationality - the word you were needing is CITIZENSHIP; there are still "nation-states" - such as Japan - states made up of basically or overwhelmingly a single nation/ethnicity. Citizenship refers to political borders - which sometimes change often. Just FYI. 104.169.37.72 (talk) 01:32, 17 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

thanks for this information.--SharabSalam (talk) 20:58, 19 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Milhist coordinator election voting has commenced

G'day everyone, voting for the 2019 Wikiproject Military history coordinator tranche is now open. This is a simple approval vote; only "support" votes should be made. Project members should vote for any candidates they support by 23:59 (UTC) on 28 September 2018. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:37, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Self-publishing and Books on Demand at Queen of Sheba - this ia an 1813 book accessible only this way but needs proper referencing

The author has been dead for over a century. The book isn't self-published. It's actually Zweytes Fläschchen, oder Sagen und Kunden des Morgenlandes aus arabischen, persischen und türkischen Quellen gesammelt (Stuttgart und Tübingen, 1813), 166. 7 Johann Heinrich Zedier, Grosses vollständiges Universal-Lexicon, Bd.\

The fact that you can get it at BoD doesn't make it self-published, it makes it accessible. What I'd appreciate your doing is to source it properly so that won't happen again. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 09:10, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And did you really think I'd revert to allow a self-published book to be used as a source? Doug Weller talk 09:12, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Doug Weller, I thought you didn't notice. How can I source it properly?--SharabSalam (talk) 09:15, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Actually this is better.[3] Rosenöl: Erstes Fläschchen und Zweytes Fläschchen. Oder Sagen und Kunden des Morgenlandes aus arabischen, persischen und türkischen Quellen gesammelt.Joseph Hammer-PurgstallISBN 10: 3487126095 / ISBN 13: 9783487126098

Published by Olms Verlag, 2004 but you need to add the first publishing date of 1813. See Help:Referencing for beginners. Put 1813 in the date field and 2004 in the Edition field.Doug Weller talk 09:24, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

1RR Violation

Houthi movement and its talk page, Talk:Houthi movement are pages subject to a 1-revert limitation, as you no doubt saw when you edited them. Your recent reverts on these pages broke that restriction. Please revert them, so I won't have to report you. Here come the Suns (talk)

Wikiproject Military history coordinator election half-way mark

G'day everyone, the voting for the XIX Coordinator Tranche is at the halfway mark. The candidates have answered various questions, and you can check them out to see why they are running and decide whether you support them. Project members should vote for any candidates they support by 23:59 (UTC) on 28 September 2018. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:37, 22 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A goat for you!

Thanks for help with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jeremy_Corbyn#Antisemitism_accusations%3A_claim_with_irrelevant_source

Aingotno (talk) 22:59, 23 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Aingotno Thanks!! and you are welcome.--SharabSalam (talk) 17:59, 24 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry

We apologize for writing in your profile, but I was prevented from writing on the original article discussion page The answer is in the source on the right side of the royal order on the photo page, where the names of people who met at a house in Taif were written and suggested that if someone is fluent in Arabic, he will see the following headings:

بدء تكوين الفكرة
عقد الإجتماعات
نشر الفكرة في الوطنيين

Ms.3hooD (talk) 20:09, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Disruptive Editing of Racism in the Palestinian Territories

This is your only warning; if you remove or blank page contents or templates from Wikipedia again, as you did at Racism in the Palestinian territories, you may be blocked from editing without further notice.

It appears you may have misunderstood what I said when I referenced consensus in my edit summary. I understand English may not be your first langauge, so this may explain the discrepancy. When I was referring to consensus in my revert edit summary, I was referring to the fact that there had not been a consensus for the revert that the user Nableezy performed. I did not claim that there was consensus for my revert, rather I was claiming that there was not a consensus for a revert to be done in the first place (I reverted the page back to what the user RodW, and also Zero0000 had last edited, because it had reverted by the aforementioned user. Due to the 1RR rule I am unable to revert the article back to the state it was in after edits by several editors, including myself. After the 24 hour period is up, I intend on reverting the article. If other editors would like the article to be improved, referenced more, more content added, etc, I would be happy to oblige and I would like this article to be edited constructively as I and others have done here. I wanted to make you aware of the error, and I do not intend to pursue this any further. Thank you for your cooperation in this matter, and have a nice day. Yallayallaletsgo (talk) 21:34, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yallayallaletsgo, as far as I am concerned you are the one who introduced the bold edit. You got reverted multiple times for many reasons as mentioned in the talk page so per WP:BRD you are the one who should seek consensus. Even if your additions are sourced, per WP:ONUS you need to seek consensus first.--SharabSalam (talk) 23:03, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Are you part of the Houthi movement?

Hello. I have noticed that you tend to attack Saudi Arabia and defend the Houthis in wikipedia, or through adding or removing information such as adding information that Saudis are allied to Al qaeda, adding picture of bin Salman butchering yemenis, and adding that the coalition against Houthis are supporting ISIL/ansar Al Sharia. You also said Houthis treat Jews better than the Saudis and trying to remove anti-Semitism from Houthi group page etc etc.... I don't mind if you belong to a particular group in the middle east (Houthi/Iran or w/e), I just want to ask you to please remain neutral and edit wikipedia in a neutral voice instead of whitewashing/defending/attacking a certain group and reading between the lines into sources.

If I am mistaken I apologise, but I simply noticed your activity in Houthi related articles/edits and my observation could be wrong. Hope you have a wonderful day. Graull (talk) 19:30, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Graull: this speculation as to an editor's real-life affiliation is just not appropriate. If you have concerns regarding neutrality, just focus on that. El_C 19:51, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am 100% neutral!.--SharabSalam (talk) 19:58, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I apologise. Please remove my inquiry since it is not appropriate. Best wishes. Graull (talk) 20:01, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In talk pages I introduce my rational point of view and others introduce their point of views. Just because you found my point of view different than yours doesn't mean I am being biased. I edit in the main space with total respect to neutrality.--SharabSalam (talk) 20:53, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A kitten for you!

Al Hamdulillah!

Padewasab (talk) 19:45, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Padewasab, whats happening? Why are you saying Al Hamdulillah!? SharabSalam (talk) 19:46, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Egyptians

Hello, if some user keeps edit warring me, and falsifies citations to support a specific opinion. What can I do? I can prove that he is falsifying references because we discussed multiple time and i don't think he doesn't understand anymore. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sefarat90 (talk • contribs) 23:55, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sefarat90, I will see if I can resolve this problem when I have time. No need to stress yourself out. If you dont want to wait then read this WP:DR. You can request dispute resolution from here Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard or you can start a request for comment in the talk page. You can find the instructions in these pages Wikipedia:Requests for comment and Wikipedia:Writing requests for comment.-SharabSalam (talk) 05:58, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi

Hello Sir, the section is already added under the Ottoman Rule [4]. Treannmust (talk) 12:07, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A question about your username

Hello.

I was wondering if I could ask your a question of personal nature, just out of curiousity. You've mentioned that your username is blocked in the Arabic Wikipedia. What's wrong with it? flowing dreams (talk page) 12:27, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Flowing dreams, in Arabic wikipedia usernames of places like "New York city", "Saudi Arabia", "Mecca" are not allowed. My name is the same as Shara'b As Salam District so they blocked me. I wrote the fact that I am blocked because of username in my user page because some editors in English wikipedia think that I was disruptive in Arabic wikipedia so that I got blocked.--SharabSalam (talk) 12:33, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! It was a useful piece of info! 😊 flowing dreams (talk page) 12:35, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

BLP

Before advising editors to contact legal about a BLP violation, they should be advised follow the guidance as described in the BLP policy(WP:BIOSELF) Legal is more for matters of libel and defamation, not BLP violations. 331dot (talk) 20:24, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

331dot, thanks for this information.--SharabSalam (talk) 21:00, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tunisia

I reviewed and accepted your edit at Tunisia. Indeed, the spelling that was there formerly was correct for French, but not for English. Since this is en-wiki, your change is an improvement. Thanks for your contributions! Mathglot (talk) 02:02, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks!.--SharabSalam (talk) 05:16, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

United Nations

Hi SharabSalam. I know we got off on the wrong foot, but I do appreciate your work on wikipedia. I want to make you aware that the issue on the United Nations page regarding that map is still going on. Your input on how to resolve this is much appreciated. Wadaad (talk) 08:57, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have started a new discussion on it here.[5] Your input is much appreciated. Wadaad (talk) 12:25, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]