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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Flyer22 Frozen (talk | contribs) at 23:16, 30 June 2020 (→‎Proposal to change page name to "List of LGBTQ characters in animated series"). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Missing Entries?

I hope this is the right place to put this. RWBY-> May Marigold -> Trans Woman -> Confimed by Kdin Jenzen ZoeyTheInfernal (talk) 06:37, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Are you asking if you want to add additional characters to the existing list? Because if you want to do, feel free, just add sources for your information. --Historyday01 (talk) 23:44, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:RS needed EvergreenFir (talk) 06:41, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I can't agree more.--Historyday01 (talk) 15:38, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Page size

After inspecting this article, it is quite clear that this page is far too large due to several factors.

  • Inclusion of characters as transgender and genderqueer when this has not been explicitly described. Often this includes characters who only dress or behave like another gender.
  • Overly lengthy descriptions. Much more than necessary is usually written in the notes, especially when the plot is discussed.
  • Inclusion of very minor characters. Given the size of the article, characters that appear once are unlikely to be notable enough for inclusion here.
  • Too many references. While some entries have no references, there are entries which have far too many references. Usually one should be enough.

There are likely other factors here as well, but I would implore editors to improve this article by making reductions in its size that addresses those issues. Onetwothreeip (talk) 02:42, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I generally agree, but I think it can be worth including some minor characters depending on their role in the stories of specific series themselves. I can agree that at times there are too many references, but at other times the amount of references is justified. So, its a balance.Historyday01 (talk) 00:48, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This page is literally the largest one on Wikipedia. It must be cut down somehow. I do agree that some of the descriptions can be trimmed; such as Princess Bubblegum and Marceline. As for minor characters, I think they should be included only if they played a major role; like that one dude from Homer's Phobia, since the episode was quite significant. We could always separate the article by decade to help trim it. PanagiotisZois (talk) 10:04, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We could do that.Historyday01 (talk) 02:15, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I would add that some descriptions can get too short. I think each description should be a minimum of three sentences long.Historyday01 (talk) 04:18, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Justifying present categorization

As you may have noticed, I reorganized this page again to its previous categorization of identities. I am aware that this is not perfect, but it is better than arguing about "classification." Currently, I am working on adding citations for shows with LGBTQ characters in the 1990s, 2000s, and 2010s. The 1990s one is complete with full sources, while the ones for shows in the 2000s and 2010s need work. Dividing the ones with biggest number of words (especially for the 2000s and 2010s) is justified, as adding them back into this page would unnecessarily clog it. I am open and willing to talk about this further, but ask that if the content is moved back to this page that it be retained in its current form of organized by identity and character debut date. The previous method of organizing it by series premiere date was fundamentally flawed, which is why I stuck with these two other forms of organization. Again, you could say that pages like this need work, but I think we have made a good step in the right direction.Historyday01 (talk) 20:53, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Confusion

Although it's great that everyone has worked towards making the article less big, one thing I noticed was how characters that had the same LGBT inclusion were separated by the date they first appeared or when they first mentioned their sexuality. That would be confusing for researchers who are looking for the specific series with characters that are LGBT considering that they would have to look through each month or year, just to find the character. I think it would be best if you place characters that are under the same LGBT umbrella (Lesbian characters, Gay characters etc.) with the same year the show was made.

Example:

Lesbian characters; Year: December 1989; Series: The Simpsons; Characters(s): Patty Bouvier; Country: U.S.

Gay characters; Year: December 1989; Series: The Simpsons; Character(s): Dewley Largo, John, Grady & Julio, Waylon Smithers; Country: U.S.

Transgender characters; Year: December 1989; Character(s): Constance Ham, Brunella P.; Country: U.S.

That way, it would cause less confusion and stress for researchers. Furthermore, it somewhat shortens the article. GlitchyM. (talk) 04:08, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So you noticed correctly that "characters that had the same LGBT inclusion were separated by the date they first appeared or when they first mentioned their sexuality." I understand that it could be confusing for researchers, but not every LGBTQ character premiered in the first episode, which is why I thought it would be better to organize them by debut date. In terms of putting characters "that are under the same LGBT umbrella (Lesbian characters, Gay characters etc.) with the same year the show was made," I'm not sure if organizing them by the date the show was made is the best approach, as that was the previous organization before, and that led to a lot of problems. For instance, a show, like the Simpsons premiered in 1989 but the character premiered in a later season... Any issues with the premiere of characters or anything of the sort can be addressed with the future page on the history of LGBTQ characters in animation. Also, I don't think this episode needs to be shortened, necessarily, as it is already shorter than it was originally thanks to most of the content being spun off to other pages.Historyday01 (talk) 00:26, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]


I Agree with GlitchyM. As nice as it is to have a more accurate date for the characters themselves, that's not what this article is about. To my understanding, this article is about the shows themselves (primary aspect) and less about the characters in it (secondary aspect). With the way the article is now, sorted by not only orientation but by character premiere date, then the article title needs to be changed to List of LGBTQ characters in Animated Series. That way the premise of the article would shift to presenting information on the characters and less about the show itself. But since the title of the Article is list of animated series with LGBTQ characters, then the information in the table needs to prominently reflect informing readers about the show and less about the characters. So basically what I'm saying is, it doesn't matter if an LGBTQ character starts appearing in season 29 of a show, the table information needs to include the date the show started not necessarily the date the character first appeared. However, because I love the idea of including the character premiere date, not to mention all the work that went into finding all those dates, the characters premiere date could be moved into the notes sections because it is noteworthy information. But I would like that date to be sortable too, so here's an example that uses both series premiere date, and the character premiere date.


Series Debut Date Show Title Characters Character Debut Date Notes Country
November 13, 2018 She-Ra and the Princesses of Power Adora Catra November 13, 2018 Adora and Catra were childhood friends... United States
Huntara August 2, 2019 In her episode debut, Huntara was seen...

I figured this way more people would be happy and less confused. People like GlitchyM and I, who find the same series multiple times on the same table to be confusing, unnecessary, and or repetitive. Also the people who want to know when the characters first appear will be happy because that date would also be included. This way a series would only be on a table once (unless the table is sorted) and each character would get their own section of that shows rows.2605:A000:1301:C9AB:62F6:77FF:FED7:8E8 (talk) 03:26, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I see what you are saying, but I would say that every character deserves their own entry. If this page would be changed, then all the pages associated with it would have to be changed too. The current format allows for editors, like myself, to easily move content from one page, like this one, to List of lesbian characters in anime for example. I would completely support changing the name to "List of LGBTQ characters in Animated Series," a thought I was actually thinking about today. Additionally, I think a series premiere date would be confusing because a series could premiere in 1989, like the Simpsons, but the character didn't come out as gay until 2005 (in the case of Patty). Historyday01 (talk) 03:52, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fascinating to read previous discussions

Just perusing the past discussions of pages merged into this one. 2012 to 2015 was wild. Some declared that Zirkonia in Sailor Moon "is not homo-, bi- or pansexual," denied Bubbline and Korrasami (both confirmed by their respective shows), and deleted a bunch of content. Otherwise, there was always a debate over lack of sourcing. The first archive, in 2017, is lively, with debates on whether to include one-off characters or not, with the same in 2018, complaining that some examples are wrong or not legitimate for some reason, with Glitchy asking people if characters are LGBTQ or not. In 2019, there was a suggested split of the page between Japanese/non-Japanese animation with LGBTQ characters, and arguments that the classification column wasn't needed, and new organization of the page this year by yours truly, not without some debate over that. I admit the current format isn't perfect, but its better than what was there before. I do think what @Ncboy2010 said back in 2012 is still relevant:

  • Each character must be:
  1. Individually notable (References are lacking, but could be added. I've removed all unsourced redlinks)
  2. From an animated media (Films, TV shows, CGI)
  3. Homosexual, Bisexual or Transgender (Explicitly, There should be no "Rumoured" or "Implied")

I would revise it, however, to restrict entries to animated shows, not films or CGI (which would go on the List of animated films with LGBT characters page), that LGBTQ characters, not just those which are gay, bi, and trans should be included. Sometimes you have to go with implied, especially when it comes to anime, although Western cartoons are better. In terms of notability, I would say a general rule of thumb is that the LGBTQ character, to be included on this page or any of the ones split off from it, should interact either with the protagonist (or their friends), be a protagonist or a supporting character of some prominence in the show itself.--Historyday01 (talk) 18:50, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the last part, I'd say only main characters or recurring ones should be included. According to Wikipedia's rules, a character is recurring if they appear in 4 episodes and more. (Granted, it's not always easy to identify which characters in an animated series are main ones, since they don't have cast lists like live-action shows) Guest starts (3 episodes and less) are an issue. I guess they should definitely be included if they were "culturally significant"; like John from "Homer's Phobia". PanagiotisZois (talk) 19:19, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@PanagiotisZois, perhaps, but I think there are some exceptions to that, like Matoko Goldberg in Neo Yokio who appears in only a couple episodes, but Lexy, a friend of the protagonist, Kaz, who has been transformed into a woman, calls her the "hottest lesbian on Long Island" and kisses her (noted on the 2015-2019 list). She later reappears in the special for the show too, although she has a non-speaking part at that point. If there was a page for one-off or minor LGBTQ characters (less than three or four times in an episode), or something, in animation, that would be great, titled something like "List of one-off LGBT characters in animation" as one user posed back in 2017. Unfortunately, that, using the model of what happened to the page for the Simpsons with one-off characters, would probably just be deleted, which would be bad. Such a page could serve as a sort of overflow for characters that don't fall under those guidelines, like the List of animated series with crossdressing characters page.
On the other hand, as @Tarage said back in 2017 (its on the Archive 1 page), "making a list of one-off LGBT characters again fails to play to the purpose of this encyclopedia: to be encyclopedic," adding that "creating a separate list runs counter to that...at the base of this are the characters themselves." Interestingly, they later added in another discussion, "I'd rather condense the list and only have people who are actually LGBT rather than one-offs and joke characters." I agree with joke characters, but where will these one-off characters go? TV Tropes says that a "one-shot or one-off character is a character which "appears in only one episode of a series, after which they are never seen again." The recurring characters page on here is pretty vague at how "recurring" is defined, not defining it by a number, although it is implied they appear three-plus times if distinguished from guest stars:

A recurring character or supporting character is a fictional character, usually in a prime time TV series, who frequently appears from time to time during the series' run. Recurring characters often play major roles in more than one episode, sometimes being the main focus. They may be contrasted with "regular" characters, who typically appear in every or almost every episode of a series. Recurring characters appear less frequently than regulars, but more frequently than guest star characters, who may appear in only one or two episodes without being expected to return.

By the argument on that page, Goldberg would count as a guest star character or as a recurring character. Perhaps there could be an additional column noting if the character is recurring, a guest star, or one off? That's my thinking instead of creating a new page.Historyday01 (talk) 20:59, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Update: I did look through the pages in the Wikipedia rules about lists, and didn't find anything about recurring characters at first glance, where you said that "according to Wikipedia's rules, a character is recurring if they appear in 4 episodes and more." If you could provide the link to the specific rule, that would be great. I'm just not finding it.Historyday01 (talk) 21:35, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Turns out I might have been somewhat wrong about the number 4. I definitely remembered it being from Wikipedia, but it turns out to be from the season 1 page of Jessica Jones. If you go to edit the character list, a hidden note states that recurring characters appear in 4 and more episodes. It's likely such stuff also exists on other pages, but given the rules you provided above, it's likely just a user (or users) making that rule up. PanagiotisZois (talk) 12:23, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, good to know. But, I do generally agree with what you are saying about the characters having to be prominent enough in the show.Historyday01 (talk) 00:08, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah. For example, Ai no Kusabi has various gay / bi men in it, but how many are actually integral and worthy of mention? That's a process that will take quite some time to figure out. PanagiotisZois (talk) 11:06, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. Not sure off hand, as I haven't seen the series yet. Luckily, most of the series I have seen have LGBTQ characters which appear in multiple eps, so its generally fine.Historyday01 (talk) 12:40, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As a further note here, @PanagiotisZois, I'm planning to create pages like List of fictional gay characters and List of fictional bisexual characters (maybe create a redirect for List of fictional bi characters) based the format I've put in place on the List of fictional lesbian characters and List of fictional trans characters pages. Luckily there is already a List of television series with bisexual characters page, although with gay characters it may take longer, as the Bara (genre), Gay pulp fiction, Slash fiction, Gay teen fiction, Yaoi, and Gay literature pages don't have any lists which can easily be adapted to a list page, other than the List of yaoi anime and manga. --Historyday01 (talk) 15:26, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Dude, you are on fire. I can offer some (admittedly, very minor) help. If you go at my Sandbox1, you can find many bisexual characters from films. They're not much, but it's a start. PanagiotisZois (talk) 15:32, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! @PanagiotisZois, I'll look at your sandbox and incorporate that into an upcoming article. I was actually surprised that there is no list of gay characters or even bisexual characters. The only reason I can think that the pages weren't created is because there were so many characters that no one wanted to go to the effort of bringing them all together? Also, there probably aren't as many gay editors on Wikipedia. Historyday01 (talk) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, considering gays are a minority in general, I'm guessing this translates to editors. Lol. But I think it might also have to do with practicality. To put this into perspective, asexuality is a relatively "new" sexual idenity, and there aren't all that many asexual characters, in general, across all media. Thus, a list of fictional asexual characters does make sense, especially since it won't be very big. Conversely, multiple film, shows, novels, etc. have characters in them that identify as lesbians, so that's probably why such a lsit wasn't made [by you :)] until very recently. Because a list like that would end up being huge. PanagiotisZois (talk) 17:25, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That was my thought too. Exactly, the list is huge, and there are so many I haven't added because they aren't sourced as well. Historyday01 (talk) 19:23, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@PanagiotisZois, I am happy to announce that the List of fictional bisexual characters is up and running! Your sandbox was helpful in adding some extra sources. Going to create some other pages next. Huge lists are always fun, sorta, ha. --Historyday01 (talk) 00:29, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ranma 1/2

In the 1980s section it lists Akane Tendo as a lesbian, and Ranma Saotome as transgender. These are not really justifiable. You can put Akane as possibly bisexual, but she does not identify as a lesbian, and is attracted to Ranma, but it's not clear it's exclusive to his female form. She otherwise only shows romantic interest in male characters. She also does not reject Ryoga's interest in her. She is unaware of it. And yes, Ranma does turn into a girl, but it is a physical change only, it's not permanent (which the article implies), and he never identifies as a woman/girl except for manipulation purposes. Having him described as 'she' in this article is very misleading. --Trebligoniqua (talk) 11:42, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Trebligoniqua, I haven't watched Ranma, but if you think that those categories are wrong, feel free to move them. The entries on this page are fluid, so if you want to change them, go right ahead. I did bring a lot of the stuff on this page together, but its no guarantee that everything on it is completely correct. Happy editing! Historyday01 (talk) 02:46, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Historyday01. Great! Thanks for the endorsement. I left them both in, and wrote some edits, but moved Akane down to Other and put in "Possibly Bisexual" as a descriptor. Ranma, who is straight, should possibly be removed from the list. It's a grey area, I'd say, since he identifies as male in all forms, but does literally transform into a biological female form. This character was not conceived with idea of actual transgender persons in mind.--Trebligoniqua (talk) 11:26, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Alphabetic Order

Don't you think it would be quite confusing to order the characters in alphabetic order? It looked more simpler when ordered in debut dates. Furthermore, some of the orders are mixed up. I don't know...it just seems weird. GlitchyM. (talk) 03:24, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, yes. Well, I changed it to bring it into alignment with pages like List of fictional bisexual characters, List of fictional lesbian characters, List of fictional trans characters, List of fictional asexual characters, List of fictional intersex characters, List of fictional non-binary characters (that page needs a lot of work), List of fictional pansexual characters, List of lesbian characters in anime, List of lesbian characters in animation, List of lesbian characters in anime, List of bisexual characters in anime, and List of bisexual characters in animation. Additionally, the debut dates are a bit clunky, and some are only estimates (especially for the anime characters). If people want to organize it by date, they still can do so, but I think alphabetical order flows a little better. --Historyday01 (talk) 02:53, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to change page name to "List of LGBTQ characters in animated series"

I have made a lot of changes to this page recently, mainly to align it with the organization of the List of lesbian characters in anime, List of bisexual characters in anime, List of gay characters in anime, List of lesbian characters in animation, List of bisexual characters in animation, List of gay characters in animation, List of fictional trans characters, List of fictional non-binary characters (still needs work), List of fictional pansexual characters, List of fictional asexual characters, and List of fictional intersex characters. This change would also affect the following pages:

This name change would reflect the new organization of the page, which would be a travesty to reverse as it focuses more on the characters now than on the animated series, which I believe is the right focus. Gonna include @GlitchyM., @Onetwothreeip, @PanagiotisZois, @User:Raymond1922A, @User:AngusWOOF, @User:Daniel Carrero, @User:ZoeyTheInfernal, @User:EvergreenFir, @User:Cabutchikas, @User:John B123, @2605:A000:1301:C9AB:62F6:77FF:FED7:8E8, and anyone else who wants to join this discussion. Personally, I don't feel like reorganizing the pages by series, which is why I feel this is the best approach. Additionally, having a unique organization to these pages that doesn't align with other pages could complicate efforts to update those other pages (like those associated with specific identities) without causing headaches for editors. That's my thought on it at least. In the mean time, I'm trying to go through all the pages and provide better sourcing, as many of the entries currently only list episodes as sources, especially when it comes to anime. I look forward to hearing all your thoughts on this. Historyday01 (talk) 04:10, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would rename these articles to "LGBT". Onetwothreeip (talk) 07:56, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I support the moves as presented except keep LGBTQ, especially for list members that are explicitly queer/questioning. I expect characters to be more progressive and creative with labels. Gleeanon409 (talk) 12:58, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Gleeanon409, I'll agree to that. I personally would like to keep LGBTQ to be honest. That's why I'm removing my last comment to @Onetwothreeip. These pages (the ones I listed above) have gone a long way from what they were even last fall, and I'm glad they have changed. Historyday01 (talk) 13:07, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We can't honestly be expected to document every single instance where a character's sexuality or gender may be ambiguous. Beyond that, "LGBT" is clearly the most accepted and widely known acronym to encompass diverse sexualities, and we should remain to this standard as we have done throughout Wikipedia. Any character or person that would clearly be described as "LGBTQ" could just as well be considered "LGBT".
These lists are far too large as they are, and presently they seem more of a personal hobby than an honest assessment of reliable sources. We certainly shouldn't be listing series from fantasy genres which depict super-human or pseudo-human characters either, on the same basis that we wouldn't have a list of fictional animals with same-sex attraction here. We should be striving for an inclusion criteria where the series is listed elsewhere as including LGBT characters. Onetwothreeip (talk) 21:39, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep them at "LGBT" per my and others' arguments here at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies. Also, for wider input, these should be listed at WP:Requested moves with a note on the talk pages pointing people to this section for a centralized discussion (WP:TALKCENT), or an WP:RfC should be started. This shouldn't be decided on by only the editors who have been pinged. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 23:12, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
On a side note: Historyday01, I ask that you don't ping me to this talk page since I will watch this development for some days or weeks. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 23:16, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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