Talk:Swaminarayan Sampradaya
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Swaminarayan Sampradaya article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 90 days ![]() |
![]() | The contents of the Criticism of Swaminarayan sect page were merged into Swaminarayan Sampradaya on 03-Nov-2019. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
![]() | The contents of the Swaminarayan Sampraday page were merged into Swaminarayan Sampradaya on 29 December 2019. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history. |
![]() | This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Original Research
Extended content
|
---|
There have been edits to the Gunatit Samaj section which I believe are original research. The claim is: "Dadubhai believed Pramukh Swami was against him and persuaded the BAPS trustees to remove him." The published sources the
Both of these sources fail to mention what is being written. If it can be found within the source, then a citation with the page number needs to be added.Apollo1203 (talk) 15:48, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Page 66 Why does the article have multiple pictures of BAPS? This is not a BAPS article? Doesn't make sense. 136.2.16.182 (talk) 16:01, 15 July 2020 (UTC) I have been following this discussion. The claim "Dadubhai believed Pramukh Swami was against him and persuaded the BAPS trustees to remove him." is not being made on page 66. Please correct me if I am missing something. With that said I do agree that 7 of the 8 pictures here are BAPS picture and this is not appropriate. This page is the entire Sampradaya and so one "branch" should not dominate the entire page. Open to suggestions from Apollo1203 on how we can remediate this and spread the presence of the entire Sampradaya in the used imagery. My proposed suggestion is that images on this centeral page only be limited to mandirs, murtis and images of things originally created by Swaminarayan himself and then let each sections own landing page use their branches images. Otherwise we end up with a bias towards one branch. Kbhatt22 (talk) 21:46, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
And we need to remove those pictures. This article is about the Sampraday not individual sects that broke off. 136.2.16.182 (talk) 22:17, 15 July 2020 (UTC) I did not draw the connection between narayanswarupdas and pramukh swami, regardless if you can use words or outline that name connection and the source is a valid book with isbn; I personally am not seeing a problem here but I will let some of the other editors/contributors provide feedback before we can all reach a consensus on this change. I am not advocating we remove the pictures entirely but we balance them to encompass the entire Sampradaya and not any one branch. The best way being, sticking to the original content created by Swaminarayan himself. Also, please wait for others to provide feedback and a consensus to be reached before making an edit as per Wikipedia's guidelines. Kbhatt22 (talk) 22:55, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Kbhatt22 thank you for your ideas and contributions in a civil manner. However, I think there is a lot being discussed here and it may be easier if you begin with the exercise we have done previously - creating drafts on sandbox and then it can be discussed in a more organized manner. I think the first thing to add to the page would be the new Maninagar guru information. However, some of the other edits proposed I do not agree with. In terms of the images on the page. If you analyze the images on the page, only 4 of the 9 appear to be BAPS specific. However, they still are representative of the sampradaya. I think there is room on the article to potentially add 1-2 high quality images if needed. Apollo1203 (talk) 18:33, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
I made edits to complete 2,3 (no change),and 4 where consensus was reached to get those out of our way and not carry them forward in the ongoing discussion. 3 was a no change based on consensus so nothing was done. I accidentally put 3 in my change notes. Unsure how to update that but I meant to say edit 4 in the change notes. We are now just awaiting finalizing Edit 1 and Edit 5. Is there any further feed back to the proposed images in my last sandbox update? Kbhatt22 (talk) 13:53, 28 July 2020 (UTC) @Kbhatt22: I have reorganized the sandbox, so it’s clear how many people agree/disagree with each edit. I would encourage everyone to add their votes here so it's clear where things stand. Upon review of this lengthy talk page, I don't think there's consensus for reordering the links. Skubydoo is right that there's no way to chronologically order the links because both dioceses were formed simultaneously. I’d favor reordering alphabetically, not chronologically. I don’t know how everyone else feels, but they should vote on your sandbox. Moksha88 (talk) 18:44, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
I mean this with absolute continued respect, I have raised this as a dispute. This has gone on for over 2 weeks and I just want a resolution here. Hopefully this helps speed up consensus and closure of the 4 edits in my sandbox. I am not going to be actively a part of the discussion below on additional points raised by the IP. I did provide feedback but will refrain from ending up being involved in those proposed edits. I am just looking to round out my 4 proposed edits and take a break. I have remained respectful, civil, and supportive of the open wiki collaboration culture and have supported points made by literally everyone here. I am simply asking for diversification and have carefully outlined the clear heavy reliance on images and sources from one specific branch. With that said, I have remained neutral and fair but feel like after over 2 weeks, only 1 of the smallest change had any consensus reached. I have enjoyed working with all of you and look forward to continue working with each of you should more work be needed. I have much respect for all of you and hope the same exists both ways. Lets wrap up these 4 changes. Thanks Kbhatt22 (talk) 10:24, 29 July 2020 (UTC) References
|
Follow up on edits
I am proposing the following edits throughout the article and the lead.
- Edit A
Early in his leadership of the group, Sahajanand Swami directed his devotees to chant the Swaminarayan mantra, which is stands one entity Purushottam.[1] In the Vachanamrut, the principal theological text of the sampradaya, Swaminarayan identifies five eternal and distinct entities: parabrahman, brahman, maya (māyā), ishwar (iśvara), and jiva (jīva) See Gadhada I.7, Gadhada I.39, Gadhada I.42, Gadhada III.10
Currently it only shows the BAPS version which is "Early in his leadership of the group, Sahajanand Swami directed his devotees to chant the Swaminarayan mantra, which is a compound of two Sanskrit words: Swami and Narayan. ‘Swami’ denotes Aksharbrahman" which even in the source that is currently up, shows both means and needs to be clarified that the Sampraday believes the first and baps breakoff believes their own made up version. Clearly the original name meaning is different then what is currently on the article. Does this entire need to have separate BAPS interpretations? This book An introduction to Swaminarayan Hindu theology is written by a BAPS sadhu 'Paramtattvadas, Sadhu' so it needs to be tossed from this article on non BAPS items.
References
- Edit C
I am proposing removing references to Akshar-Purushottam Darshan in this article. It is not something created by Swaminarayan and has way too much undue weight on this article. It is a synthesis of sources and cherry picking of scriptures by the BAPS founder and he was legally barred from entering the Swaminarayn Sampraday premises by a judge for making up his own crap that led him to getting his followers to worship him instead. How does the shikshaprati have a tiny blurb about it from a BAPS sourced book while BAPS supporting items like Akshar-Purushottam Darshan and Swamini Vato are heavily weighted in here?
136.2.32.181 (talk) 13:53, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- I can't speak to edit A. Little too deep of a dive for me to follow. I'll leave that for others to provide feedback on. For B, based on the source you provided. Swami Vato is to Baps as Lekh is to the other branches. @Skubydoo: I think including Lekh under scriptures would resolve this. Both are listed and both merit inclusion is how I see this. As for Edit C, is that branch specific ideology? I just hovered over every source in that section and every single source was BAPs branch sourced or from the Williams, Raymond Brady book which outlines it as Baps beliefs. Instead of the IP's proposal of removing it, I propose we move it under the Baps section under branches if it is specific to that branch. Thoughts? @Skubydoo: Kbhatt22 (talk) 16:20, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- I've taken a look at the point the above user made on 'Edit C'. The sources that are speaking to this 'Akshar-Purshottam Darshan' seem to come from academic sources and don't seem 'cherry picked'. Of note, all the sources mentioned have been published by various universities, and academic organizations. I've noticed that this english translation of this 'Vachanamrut' text has been called into question as well. I am not too familiar with this text, however it is seemingly very often cited in other academic sources on the subject of this Swaminarayan Sampraday and therefore I see it being used here as ok. I am following this discussion and have sporadically had time to weigh in, but I welcome the discussion to move further. ThaNDNman224 (talk) 02:17, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- I am not suggesting they are not academic. I am suggesting if the 'Akshar-Purushottam Darshan' is a branch specific idealody like the IP claims, then we can move it under the branch as opposed to the proposal of outright removal. That's all. I ctrl+f the vachnamrut linked here and the term 'Akshar-Purushottam Darshan' did not appear in it also. The only source I saw in that section that uses that phrase was 'Swaminarayan's Brahmajnana as Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsanam' by Bhadreshdas Swami who came up as a monk from the Bochasanwasi Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha. The other source uses is the book by Swami Paramtattvadas who is also listed as a monk under that same branch/group. So I am simply asking if this is branch specific idealody or general sampradaya idealody? Can we find another source that suggests another branch shares this ideology? The answer to that I think would dictate the discussion around "Edit C' I feel. Kbhatt22 (talk) 03:33, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with ThaNDNman224 (talk · contribs) about “Edit C”. All but one source listed in the Metaphysics section is an academic, secondary source, the other being the English translation of the Vachanamrut, which the cited academic sources also reference. Therefore, in my opinion, this Vachanamrut is branch agnostic as it is widely cited in academic articles related to the Swaminarayan Sampradaya. Please see the list of scholarly sources cited in the Metaphysics section:
- Paramtattvadas, Sadhu (17 August 2017). An introduction to Swaminarayan Hindu theology. Cambridge, United Kingdom: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-107-15867-2. OCLC 964861190.
- Kim, Hanna (2002). Being Swaminarayan: the ontology and significance of belief in the construction of a Gujarati diaspora. UMI Dissertation Services. OCLC 452027310.
- Kim, Hanna (2014) "Svāminārāyaṇa: Bhaktiyoga and the Akṣarabrahman Guru". In Singleton, Mark; Goldberg, Ellen (eds.). Gurus of modern yoga. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-993871-1. OCLC 861692270.
- Gadhia, Smit (2016). "Akshara and its four forms in Swaminarayan's doctrine". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914.
- Trivedi, Yogi (2016). "Multivalent Krishna-bhakti in Premanand's Poetry". In Williams, Raymond Brady (ed.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914.
- Brahmbhatt, Arun (2016). "The Swaminarayan commentarial tradition". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity(1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914.
- Bhadreshdas, Sadhu; Aksharananddas, Sadhu (1 April 2016), "Swaminarayan's Brahmajnana as Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsanam", Swaminarayan Hinduism, Oxford University Press, pp. 172–190, doi:10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199463749.003.0011, ISBN 978-0-19-946374-9
- Kim, Hanna (2016). "Thinking through Akshardham and the making of the Swaminarayan self". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914.
- @Harshmellow717: Hey Harshmellow717. Thanks for outlining the sources. That is very helpful. I agree with you and ThaNDNman224 (talk · contribs) that this should not be removed. I am simply questioning the placement in the article. None of the other sources use the phrase 'Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsan' except the two from Baps origin. Please see my last comment for more details on the reasoning here. None of the sources above imply or suggest that that phrase is branch agnostic. It also does not exist in the vachnamrut from my ctrl+f search. That phrase is listed under the branch it is associated with already. At the very least, shouldn't we remove that phrase from the Metaphysics section? The rest is sourced and fine but it seems odd to have a branch specific ideology listed for a section applicable to the entire sampradaya. No one has surfaced a source that links that ideology with any of the other branches? Please provide one if it exists or is implied in the above sources that are not branch specific in origin.
- I believe there’s a difference in how the unregistered user is interpreting the Swaminarayan Sampradaya which underlies Edit C and the other suggested edits. The Swaminarayan Sampradaya encompasses all the branches. This interpretation is based on the majority of secondary sources available which I have outlined here. Thus, it’s incorrect to state,
because BAPS, Maninagar, and Sokdha are all included in the Swaminarayan Sampradaya and thus merit inclusion in this article. Undue weight would be to represent a minority opinion as the majority opinion based on available scholarly sources, which in this case would be to assert that these subgroups do not fall within the Swaminarayan Sampradaya and thus should be excluded from the article altogether. Please also note that the list of references I have provided are published by branch agnostic publishers, not BAPS, similar to the list by @Harshmellow717:. The claim that these sources are BAPS in origin remains unverified. Moksha88 (talk) 18:06, 28 July 2020 (UTC)“the BAPS founder and he was legally barred from entering the Swaminarayn Sampraday premises by a judge for making up his own crap that led him to getting his followers to worship him instead,”
- @Moksha88: My feed back addressed some of those concerns. I agree with you that the proposal by IP to remove that section isn't right. Which is why I proposed moving that under the branch section. You said "The claim that these sources are BAPS in origin remains unverified." But the authors of both the texts sourced that explicitly use this phrase 'Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsan' are from a specific branch. I don't know how we can verify it any further. Do you have a source that uses that phrase linking it to any other branch besides BAPS? During research I found this, https://www.baps.org/News/2019/Akshar-Purushottam-Darshan-Pith-Established-by-BAPS-in-Kashi-16999.aspx They are claiming ownership of that concept. What is wrong with my proposal that we move that content under the branch section or at the very least, outline it is branch specific. I propose keeping it just like you, just wanting to add clarification if we have an opportunity to do so. Kbhatt22 (talk) 19:12, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- I think the sources used are not cherrypicked, they are all academic and reliable sources. It does not appear to be synthesized either, which would be considered original research. The sources are from scholars and does not skew the information, the consensus among the scholars is in fact what is written in the article.Apollo1203 (talk) 02:50, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- I am sorry but if the sources are all linked to originating from one branch then regardless of if you find them scholarly or not, I can present and prove a case of biased viewpoint. Which goes back to an earlier discussion we already had about diversification of sources. Can you justify the reasoning for not wanting diversification on this page? Kbhatt22 (talk) 09:11, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- I think the sources used are not cherrypicked, they are all academic and reliable sources. It does not appear to be synthesized either, which would be considered original research. The sources are from scholars and does not skew the information, the consensus among the scholars is in fact what is written in the article.Apollo1203 (talk) 02:50, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Moksha88: My feed back addressed some of those concerns. I agree with you that the proposal by IP to remove that section isn't right. Which is why I proposed moving that under the branch section. You said "The claim that these sources are BAPS in origin remains unverified." But the authors of both the texts sourced that explicitly use this phrase 'Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsan' are from a specific branch. I don't know how we can verify it any further. Do you have a source that uses that phrase linking it to any other branch besides BAPS? During research I found this, https://www.baps.org/News/2019/Akshar-Purushottam-Darshan-Pith-Established-by-BAPS-in-Kashi-16999.aspx They are claiming ownership of that concept. What is wrong with my proposal that we move that content under the branch section or at the very least, outline it is branch specific. I propose keeping it just like you, just wanting to add clarification if we have an opportunity to do so. Kbhatt22 (talk) 19:12, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Continuing my points here: @Kbhatt22: and the unregistered user, before we can even discuss the Lekh and other suggested edits, we need to establish that the sources used in the ‘Metaphysics’ section are indeed reliable, scholarly secondary sources.
- As mentioned earlier, the matter sourced to the references outlined by Harshmellow are not cherry picked from their original context nor are they original research as previously suggested by the unregistered user. The Vachanamrut sections are from the references themselves as well. Feel free to verify yourself.
- @Kbhatt22: looking at WP:RS, reliability is established in three ways. First, all sources are books and scholarly articles which meet WP:SCHOLARSHIP. The Vachanamrut is an exception but that point has been addressed above}. Second, the list outlined above also meets the criteria for publisher. Third, the authors are all academics of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya, not just limited to one organization. One reference is incomplete, so I’m fixing it. I’m confused why you only mentioned [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Swaminarayan_Sampradaya&diff=970019891&oldid=970018205&diffmode=visual only 2. Finally, we are summarizing the current scholarly consensus in the field (WP:SOURCETYPES). All but one of the sources listed above was published in the last 10 years as opposed to the 2001 book published by Raymond Williams. Therefore, we have to acknowledge where the field stands today.Apollo1203 (talk) 04:12, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- We are discussing the lekh above. Lets not re-run that discussion down here and keep that discussion above to avoid confusion. Also to be clear for everyone, the page history shows that that entire section was made by Apollo. Not that there is anything wrong with that but lets let others have some feedback in the section here. I did verify myself that the phrase was only in sources originating from one branch. Am still waiting for someone to surface a source that links that concept with another branch. I could not find such a source and the ones used, be it scholarly, are still biases and I continue to drive for diversification of sources, images, and equal representation for all branches. I still stand by my original proposal that we simply move that phrase under the branch whose ideology it is and resolve this dispute between the changes you had already made and the changes the IP suggests. I see merit on both sides. This is not my talking point, I am simply providing neutral feedback to help reach consensus here. Let it also be known that my concern/comments are not with the entire section....As outlined above, it is with the phrase 'Akshar-Purshottum Darshan' which based on research is branch specific and should be relocated. Please don't confuse my points about that one phrase and the bias in the sources representing that phrase to the whole section. I am not targeting the whole section. I quite frankly don't understand that whole section and just independent researched the one phrase and found it to be branch specific.
- The sources that are used to reference 'Akshar-Purshottum Darshan' violate the WP:IS policy as the source is not independent and is closely affiliated with the subject. The author of the source behind that that phrase is openly part of one branch so it is dangerous to imply it is accepted by the entire sampradaya the way it is currently presented on this page. This also means the source has a conflict of interest. Kbhatt22 (talk) 09:11, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Desh Vibhag Lekh Discussion (Previously Edit 1 & Edit B)
Hello all, between the sandbox and the 3 different threads on the talk page, the discussion was getting difficult to follow so I have decided to create a new section for each point being addressed. I have taken the liberty to add relevant discussions from "Original Research" and "Follow up on edits" sections on the talk page. I have also added the relevant info from Kbhatt22 (talk · contribs)'s sandbox in order to track consensus. Please note in an effort to streamline the discussion the previous comments pasted over from other sections have been modified to only include content relevant to the point being addressed.
From Kbhatt22's Sandbox:
The Change (Addition)
- === Desh Vibhag Lekh ===
- The Desh Vibhag Lekh was written by Swaminarayan in 1827 establishing the division of territory into two dioceses of Ahmedabad and Vartal It was dictated by Sahajanand Swami himself and written by Sadhu Shukmuni in the Darbar of Khachar Dada Ebhal at Gadhada in the year 1826. It was translated into English by Geo. P Taylor in 1903. It has been accepted as such by the Bombay High Court as valid document.
- Agree
- Kbhatt22
- Disagree
- Moksha88: [1]
- Apollo1203
- Harshmellow717: [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Harshmellow717 (talk • contribs) 09:42, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
- Agree
From "Original Research" Section:
Hi @Skubydoo. Thank you for taking the time to moderate and review this information. You're presence here is greatly appreciated. What you said makes sense. A sources reputation is not dependent upon its point of view as you mentioned but it also states "articles should reflect an appropriate balance of differing points of view" which I suppose is where this article is lacking because it is so aggressively skewed by one point of view. If this page is to include everything from the start of the organization to present, I believe for linear flow, ideological differences should exist under header of the branch whose ideology it is. If that makes sense, this would eliminate the implication that the ideology of one branch is applicable to the entire organization which this article is subtly doing in multiple ways. I am not good with sandbox as I am still learning wiki. Looking at this revision: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Swaminarayan_Sampradaya&diff=968040776&oldid=968038926. As mentioned, I am trying to be subjectively neutral and only some of these changes I feel merit discussion. Running down that revision in order.
Desh vibah lekh is a recognized swaminarayan scripture by the highest courts of India. The IP address is trying to add it due to it being a fundamental part to the history and timeline of the organisation as it was originally approved by Swaminarayan and is recognized by all branches. It is the only explicitly documented succession plan by Swaminarayan. Kbhatt22 (talk) 10:46, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
- Edit 1: The ‘Major Branches’ section starts off with comprehensive details about the Lekh and its role in establishing the administrative dioceses. It is not called a scripture there but an ‘administrative document.’ Do you have supporting evidence that indicates this document is recognized as a scripture by any branch, or ideally all of them? Skubydoo (talk) 04:43, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
- Edit 1: Why is an administrative document different then a scripture? Merriam Webster defines a scripture as "a body of writings considered sacred or authoritative" .... the lekh being administrative in nature also has rules to be followed like the other scriptures listed, and fits the definition of being a writing considered sacred or authoritative. The book used as a source on this page called An Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism by William Raymond Brady (https://archive.org/details/introductiontosw0000will) mentions on pages 36, 44,49, 188, and 192 that it is accepted by the Ahmadabad branch and the vadtal branch as well as recognized by BAPS just they interperate it differently. This is actually supportive of my earlier point about one sided sources. The term "administrative document" is Baps interpretation as the Ahmdabad branch and vadtal branch see it as a spiritual document for all saying how "Acharya, saints, and haribhaktas should behave" https://www.swaminarayan.faith/media/3005/kalupur_magazine_english_nov-2014.pdf. We are already listing scriptures accepted by only one branch. This is one acknowledged by 3. Hopefully this resolves any questions you have and highlights that someone reading this article can walk away with one branches interpretations and not the sampadaya as a whole. Kbhatt22 (talk) 14:15, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
- Edit 1: I agree with you. The Lekh should be included in the article. Upon reviewing the ‘Scriptural tradition’ section and the reference you provided, I think it’s more logical to include the Lekh in the ‘Major branches’ section. The last line of the introductory paragraph for ‘Scriptural tradition,’ defines scriptures as “sacred biographies, ethical precepts, commentaries, and philosophical treatises,” none of which seem to address the purpose of the Lekh. Moksha88 (talk) 13:39, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
- After doing some research, I agree with Moksha 88 that the Lekh is not a scripture for all the branches and is best included in the successorship section. In regards to edit #2, after looking at the source I also think the original version was better. This way, the author’s statements aren’t misrepresented. For edit 5: the links should correspond to the titles of the Wikipedia articles for each diocese, which is Narnarayan Gadi and Laxminarayan Gadi. While chronological orders would make sense, both dioceses were technically formed at the same time, so it makes the most sense to order the links alphabetically. The opinions about the photos are still coming in and the conversation is productive, so I don’t feel I need to moderate that discussion. Best wishes, Skubydoo (talk) 01:36, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Skubydoo: I think the edit numbers you connected too were off above. Your comment on edit 2 I think was meant for edit 3. I think the commend for edit 5 was meant for edit 4. In terms of the Lekh, I am not sure I follow the logic there. "The lekh is not a scripture for all branches" ..... Neither is the swaminarayan bhasyam but it is included here under scriptures. Is there a source that shows it is not for all branches? If it was authored by the founder Swaminarayan and consists of rules to be followed, why treat it differently to other texts? The scripture section captures scriptures that hold significance in the sampradaya and links too their individual wiki pages, which this inclusion would do.
- I also found this during research: https://indiankanoon.org/doc/1445588/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=e6dcb1fc2fbb4b70290e1e379d628730973dee6b-1595765847-0-Ab_Q6vKacVHW2UgDJybMXNgg-XveG6jHWK9ylsprOKSaMcWbkVHyNjgMKqLqeqZqsPuog-F1ztaS_6XEcltWnmUCpMKNki3ntPEoJPLdh0hz4kKRpQp_nIo8CkwxcZj_rphr_WxkYGehuJk4rWj6IdTx9ZwAc1EpzUqjL2gP5oW48dbDPUhSIiBeWSnMk_5iRVifqVDKdvWPitqjANLL3Mi-Sd_bXLXB7cY-ercGDtX8KS_i7v39bkjwLdsVC3stByhe4WAyNfMaPvsRTgnhV5hb0jn5_G8n79P7JQdxJZzeusn1Pj6YMcoMQb35diTSvHj5dQBywJBNuwhmbyLeNc_zbGAPCDEJ7kR1tJPt90V2
- This is an Indian court case proceedings where the Lekh was accepted as a valid shashtra which literally translated to scripture. It likens the Lekh, Satsangi Jivanam, and Shikshapatri as "three holy religious books" for the swaminarayan sect. What do we have for sources that suggest it isn't a scripture? I would think the Indian High court is pretty conclusive in its definition. Thoughts?
- As a recap, we have reached consensus on edit 2,3,and 4. Awaiting feedback on the images I have suggested for edit 5 in sandbox. I proposed new images for Aarti, Murti, and Vachnamrut to diversify the page. The rest of the images are good as is. I also propose we don't have branch leaders in image form here, adds little value to this page as we outline them in text and link to each branch page where the leader images already exist. If no one has any objection to the proposed images and approach, I suggest we make the changes for edits 2-5 and shelf the lekh discussion for after(if there is still pushback to the above sources and logic). Get all the agreed changes out of the way so we aren't carrying them forward in the discussion. Thoughts? Kbhatt22 (talk) 12:15, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
From "Follow up on edits" Section:
Edit B
Before his death in June 1830, Swaminarayan established the Sampradaya into two 'gadis' or 'dioceses': Nar Narayan Dev Gadi and Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi. He had succession designated through a hereditary mode in a document titled the Desh Vibhag Lekh.[7]:132–156 In 1825, he formally adopted his nephews to maintain a bloodline leadership[8] and detailed duties and rituals in the Sampradaya's scriptures including the Shikshapatri and Satsangi Jeevan.[9] The 'Lekh' stated explicitly only Acharayas were allowed to establish temples and no sadhu may ever take control of a temple.[10]
Additional source that states the Lekh is not significant for BAPS https://www.google.com/books/edition/South_Asians_in_the_Diaspora/DsyiDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=lekh
This will allow the readers to know that Swaminarayans actions did not include BAPS ideology and his actual process into adopting his nephews as sons to maintain bloodline lineage and proper ownership of the sampraday was what he wanted and designed.
136.2.32.181 (talk) 13:53, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- I can't speak to edit A. Little too deep of a dive for me to follow. I'll leave that for others to provide feedback on. For B, based on the source you provided. Swami Vato is to Baps as Lekh is to the other branches. @Skubydoo: I think including Lekh under scriptures would resolve this. Both are listed and both merit inclusion is how I see this. As for Edit C, is that branch specific ideology? I just hovered over every source in that section and every single source was BAPs branch sourced or from the Williams, Raymond Brady book which outlines it as Baps beliefs. Instead of the IP's proposal of removing it, I propose we move it under the Baps section under branches if it is specific to that branch. Thoughts? @Skubydoo: Kbhatt22 (talk) 16:20, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
New Comments
Kbhatt22 stated earlier [see diff] that Swaminarayan himself signed the Lekh however, looking at the Lekh itself [see link] it appears Swaminarayan did not sign it, or write it for that matter. Second, Kbhatt22 cites the high court’s use of the term holy religious books to describe the Lekh as a definitive statement validating the Lekh’s characterization as a scripture [see diff]. However, the Holy book is the term used by the involved parties. The court itself is not stating that this a holy book, it is simply referring to it as such since the involved parties mention it as such. In my opinion, the use of the Lekh in the court case elucidates its function as a legal administrative document as opposed to a religious scripture. Editors acknowledge that the lekh is not considered a sacred scripture by all branches. Referencing a statement from Williams’ book, Kbhatt22 further suggests that the Swamini Vato is not accepted by all branches [see diff]. The problem with this argument is that while Williams makes it clear that the Lekh is only accepted by two branches, but not by others, in regards to the Swamini Vato he says that while the Swamini Vato is a primary text for one branch, Williams doesn’t say that it is not accepted as a scripture by other branches. In fact, the Swamini Vato is published and accepted as a scripture by all the branches of the sampradaya, [here are a few examples 1, 2, 3, 4 ]. For this reason, I would argue that the Lekh would not be included in the scripture section, while the Swamini Vato should. As the Lekh is an important document to some branches it has been included where appropriate. However, because the Lekh is not considered a scripture by all branches it is not included in the scriptures section. The scriptures section includes texts accepted by all branches. Therefore, I feel the term “administrative document” is more appropriate in this case because the document functions in some branches of the sampradaya administratively, — it accords administrative positions of significant value, i.e acharyaship, for instance. What is operative in a text’s categorization as a scripture or administrative document, or otherwise, is of course it’s content but more importantly its use and function. The Lekh doesn’t necessarily function as a scripture, as much as it does administratively, namely, in establishing administrative positions of some branches of the sampradaya. Administrative documents are very important when it comes to determining a branch’s organizational structure, and this document serves most explicitly in that way, so I’m definitely for keeping how we term the Lekh as is. Oxford English Dictionary published by the Oxford Academic Press represents scripture with these examples of texts: “the Bible; the Old and New Testaments” and the “Torah, the Prophets (former and latter), and the Hagiographa.” Both of these sets of texts are dedicated almost expressly to doctrine, theology, and religious accounts (for instance, of the Genesis, etc.). They also function and are used precisely for such content within their respective religions. Terming the Lekh a scripture would place it into this context, which seems foreign considering the document’s function. My point is that, therefore, terming it so may amount to a disservice to the document’s significance as an administrative document. Kbhatt22 makes an argument that it functions as a scripture, which I think is a possible argument that can be made, but I don’t find it as convincing as the above logic, so after some consideration, I would support the approach of leaving it as is, so that its important role as an administrative document is highlighted. Harshmellow717 (talk) 09:29, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
- The scripture I suggested not applying to all branches that is listed is already was not Swami ni Vato like you mentioned above. That would be an incorrect summary of my point. I was referring to the Swaminarayan Bhashyam which is written and accepted by one branch. So the argument that the Lekh should not be listed because it only applies to 3 branches and not all falls flat because we already list something that only applies to 1 and not all. That was all I was saying their. Since most of the above counter is based on the assumption of comparing the application of the lekh and swami ni vato and I was comparing the application of the Bhashyam book and Lekh's application to branches, I think the above counter doesn't apply. In the court link i found, it is referenced as a holy book by the judge in the judges notes section. The other source listed outlines it as the "constitution." That other source, the Hindutatva, has been used as a source on this page for other things as well. It is accepted by more branches then the other texts listed. Kbhatt22 (talk) 12:16, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
- To follow up on the signature point, I was clicking through various sources about the lekh and ended up here during searching: http://www.swaminarayanmuseum.com/highlights.html and thought that this was refering to the lekh. It is not clear if it is so I withdraw that point. It is important to note that the two links you specified about the lekh above categorize it as a scripture which is the heart of my point here that it is a scripture. Kbhatt22 (talk) 00:04, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Akshar-Purushottam Darshan (Previously Edit C)
Hello all, between the sandbox and the 3 different threads on the talk page, the discussion was getting difficult to follow so I have decided to create a new section for each point being addressed. I have taken the liberty to add relevant discussions from "Original Research" and "Follow up on edits" sections on the talk page. Please note in an effort to streamline the discussion the previous comments pasted over from other sections have been modified to only include content relevant to the point being addressed.
From "Original Research" Section:
- This page is intended to capture the entire sampradaya so everyone is for diversification where it is needed like the images discussion above. Lets let all the pending changes be worked out and then if there are any additional proposals, we can all discuss after. I think the 4 edits proposed in my sandbox have been being discussed for almost 2 weeks now. Feel free to add feedback or alternate suggestions in my sandbox for my proposed changes as additional bullet items. I would like to complete all the changes being discussed already first before starting new discussions if that is ok with everyone. This would ensure we dont mix up multiple discussions. the IP below has created a section for Akshar pursotam darshan so we can keep this section about the 4 edits outlined and discussed so far. Thanks Kbhatt22 (talk) 17:17, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
From "Follow up on edits" Section:
- Edit C
I am proposing removing references to Akshar-Purushottam Darshan in this article. It is not something created by Swaminarayan and has way too much undue weight on this article. It is a synthesis of sources and cherry picking of scriptures by the BAPS founder and he was legally barred from entering the Swaminarayn Sampraday premises by a judge for making up his own crap that led him to getting his followers to worship him instead. How does the shikshaprati have a tiny blurb about it from a BAPS sourced book while BAPS supporting items like Akshar-Purushottam Darshan and Swamini Vato are heavily weighted in here?
136.2.32.181 (talk) 13:53, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- I can't speak to edit A. Little too deep of a dive for me to follow. I'll leave that for others to provide feedback on. For B, based on the source you provided. Swami Vato is to Baps as Lekh is to the other branches. @Skubydoo: I think including Lekh under scriptures would resolve this. Both are listed and both merit inclusion is how I see this. As for Edit C, is that branch specific ideology? I just hovered over every source in that section and every single source was BAPs branch sourced or from the Williams, Raymond Brady book which outlines it as Baps beliefs. Instead of the IP's proposal of removing it, I propose we move it under the Baps section under branches if it is specific to that branch. Thoughts? @Skubydoo: Kbhatt22 (talk) 16:20, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
- I've taken a look at the point the above user made on 'Edit C'. The sources that are speaking to this 'Akshar-Purshottam Darshan' seem to come from academic sources and don't seem 'cherry picked'. Of note, all the sources mentioned have been published by various universities, and academic organizations. I've noticed that this english translation of this 'Vachanamrut' text has been called into question as well. I am not too familiar with this text, however it is seemingly very often cited in other academic sources on the subject of this Swaminarayan Sampraday and therefore I see it being used here as ok. I am following this discussion and have sporadically had time to weigh in, but I welcome the discussion to move further. ThaNDNman224 (talk) 02:17, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- I am not suggesting they are not academic. I am suggesting if the 'Akshar-Purushottam Darshan' is a branch specific idealody like the IP claims, then we can move it under the branch as opposed to the proposal of outright removal. That's all. I ctrl+f the vachnamrut linked here and the term 'Akshar-Purushottam Darshan' did not appear in it also. The only source I saw in that section that uses that phrase was 'Swaminarayan's Brahmajnana as Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsanam' by Bhadreshdas Swami who came up as a monk from the Bochasanwasi Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha. The other source uses is the book by Swami Paramtattvadas who is also listed as a monk under that same branch/group. So I am simply asking if this is branch specific idealody or general sampradaya idealody? Can we find another source that suggests another branch shares this ideology? The answer to that I think would dictate the discussion around "Edit C' I feel. Kbhatt22 (talk) 03:33, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with ThaNDNman224 (talk · contribs) about “Edit C”. All but one source listed in the Metaphysics section is an academic, secondary source, the other being the English translation of the Vachanamrut, which the cited academic sources also reference. Therefore, in my opinion, this Vachanamrut is branch agnostic as it is widely cited in academic articles related to the Swaminarayan Sampradaya. Please see the list of scholarly sources cited in the Metaphysics section:
- Paramtattvadas, Sadhu (17 August 2017). An introduction to Swaminarayan Hindu theology. Cambridge, United Kingdom: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-107-15867-2. OCLC 964861190.
- Kim, Hanna (2002). Being Swaminarayan: the ontology and significance of belief in the construction of a Gujarati diaspora. UMI Dissertation Services. OCLC 452027310.
- Kim, Hanna (2014) "Svāminārāyaṇa: Bhaktiyoga and the Akṣarabrahman Guru". In Singleton, Mark; Goldberg, Ellen (eds.). Gurus of modern yoga. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-993871-1. OCLC 861692270.
- Gadhia, Smit (2016). "Akshara and its four forms in Swaminarayan's doctrine". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914.
- Trivedi, Yogi (2016). "Multivalent Krishna-bhakti in Premanand's Poetry". In Williams, Raymond Brady (ed.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914.
- Brahmbhatt, Arun (2016). "The Swaminarayan commentarial tradition". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity(1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914.
- Bhadreshdas, Sadhu; Aksharananddas, Sadhu (1 April 2016), "Swaminarayan's Brahmajnana as Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsanam", Swaminarayan Hinduism, Oxford University Press, pp. 172–190, doi:10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199463749.003.0011, ISBN 978-0-19-946374-9
- Kim, Hanna (2016). "Thinking through Akshardham and the making of the Swaminarayan self". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914.
- @Harshmellow717: Hey Harshmellow717. Thanks for outlining the sources. That is very helpful. I agree with you and ThaNDNman224 (talk · contribs) that this should not be removed. I am simply questioning the placement in the article. None of the other sources use the phrase 'Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsan' except the two from Baps origin. Please see my last comment for more details on the reasoning here. None of the sources above imply or suggest that that phrase is branch agnostic. It also does not exist in the vachnamrut from my ctrl+f search. That phrase is listed under the branch it is associated with already. At the very least, shouldn't we remove that phrase from the Metaphysics section? The rest is sourced and fine but it seems odd to have a branch specific ideology listed for a section applicable to the entire sampradaya. No one has surfaced a source that links that ideology with any of the other branches? Please provide one if it exists or is implied in the above sources that are not branch specific in origin.
- I believe there’s a difference in how the unregistered user is interpreting the Swaminarayan Sampradaya which underlies Edit C and the other suggested edits. The Swaminarayan Sampradaya encompasses all the branches. This interpretation is based on the majority of secondary sources available which I have outlined here. Thus, it’s incorrect to state,
because BAPS, Maninagar, and Sokdha are all included in the Swaminarayan Sampradaya and thus merit inclusion in this article. Undue weight would be to represent a minority opinion as the majority opinion based on available scholarly sources, which in this case would be to assert that these subgroups do not fall within the Swaminarayan Sampradaya and thus should be excluded from the article altogether. Please also note that the list of references I have provided are published by branch agnostic publishers, not BAPS, similar to the list by @Harshmellow717:. The claim that these sources are BAPS in origin remains unverified. Moksha88 (talk) 18:06, 28 July 2020 (UTC)“the BAPS founder and he was legally barred from entering the Swaminarayn Sampraday premises by a judge for making up his own crap that led him to getting his followers to worship him instead,”
- @Moksha88: My feed back addressed some of those concerns. I agree with you that the proposal by IP to remove that section isn't right. Which is why I proposed moving that under the branch section. You said "The claim that these sources are BAPS in origin remains unverified." But the authors of both the texts sourced that explicitly use this phrase 'Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsan' are from a specific branch. I don't know how we can verify it any further. Do you have a source that uses that phrase linking it to any other branch besides BAPS? During research I found this, https://www.baps.org/News/2019/Akshar-Purushottam-Darshan-Pith-Established-by-BAPS-in-Kashi-16999.aspx They are claiming ownership of that concept. What is wrong with my proposal that we move that content under the branch section or at the very least, outline it is branch specific. I propose keeping it just like you, just wanting to add clarification if we have an opportunity to do so. Kbhatt22 (talk) 19:12, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- I think the sources used are not cherrypicked, they are all academic and reliable sources. It does not appear to be synthesized either, which would be considered original research. The sources are from scholars and does not skew the information, the consensus among the scholars is in fact what is written in the article.Apollo1203 (talk) 02:50, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- I am sorry but if the sources are all linked to originating from one branch then regardless of if you find them scholarly or not, I can present and prove a case of biased viewpoint. Which goes back to an earlier discussion we already had about diversification of sources. Can you justify the reasoning for not wanting diversification on this page? Kbhatt22 (talk) 09:11, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- I think the sources used are not cherrypicked, they are all academic and reliable sources. It does not appear to be synthesized either, which would be considered original research. The sources are from scholars and does not skew the information, the consensus among the scholars is in fact what is written in the article.Apollo1203 (talk) 02:50, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Moksha88: My feed back addressed some of those concerns. I agree with you that the proposal by IP to remove that section isn't right. Which is why I proposed moving that under the branch section. You said "The claim that these sources are BAPS in origin remains unverified." But the authors of both the texts sourced that explicitly use this phrase 'Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsan' are from a specific branch. I don't know how we can verify it any further. Do you have a source that uses that phrase linking it to any other branch besides BAPS? During research I found this, https://www.baps.org/News/2019/Akshar-Purushottam-Darshan-Pith-Established-by-BAPS-in-Kashi-16999.aspx They are claiming ownership of that concept. What is wrong with my proposal that we move that content under the branch section or at the very least, outline it is branch specific. I propose keeping it just like you, just wanting to add clarification if we have an opportunity to do so. Kbhatt22 (talk) 19:12, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Continuing my points here: @Kbhatt22: and the unregistered user, before we can even discuss the Lekh and other suggested edits, we need to establish that the sources used in the ‘Metaphysics’ section are indeed reliable, scholarly secondary sources.
- As mentioned earlier, the matter sourced to the references outlined by Harshmellow are not cherry picked from their original context nor are they original research as previously suggested by the unregistered user. The Vachanamrut sections are from the references themselves as well. Feel free to verify yourself.
- @Kbhatt22: looking at WP:RS, reliability is established in three ways. First, all sources are books and scholarly articles which meet WP:SCHOLARSHIP. The Vachanamrut is an exception but that point has been addressed above}. Second, the list outlined above also meets the criteria for publisher. Third, the authors are all academics of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya, not just limited to one organization. One reference is incomplete, so I’m fixing it. I’m confused why you only mentioned [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Swaminarayan_Sampradaya&diff=970019891&oldid=970018205&diffmode=visual only 2. Finally, we are summarizing the current scholarly consensus in the field (WP:SOURCETYPES). All but one of the sources listed above was published in the last 10 years as opposed to the 2001 book published by Raymond Williams. Therefore, we have to acknowledge where the field stands today.Apollo1203 (talk) 04:12, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- We are discussing the lekh above. Lets not re-run that discussion down here and keep that discussion above to avoid confusion. Also to be clear for everyone, the page history shows that that entire section was made by Apollo. Not that there is anything wrong with that but lets let others have some feedback in the section here. I did verify myself that the phrase was only in sources originating from one branch. Am still waiting for someone to surface a source that links that concept with another branch. I could not find such a source and the ones used, be it scholarly, are still biases and I continue to drive for diversification of sources, images, and equal representation for all branches. I still stand by my original proposal that we simply move that phrase under the branch whose ideology it is and resolve this dispute between the changes you had already made and the changes the IP suggests. I see merit on both sides. This is not my talking point, I am simply providing neutral feedback to help reach consensus here. Let it also be known that my concern/comments are not with the entire section....As outlined above, it is with the phrase 'Akshar-Purshottum Darshan' which based on research is branch specific and should be relocated. Please don't confuse my points about that one phrase and the bias in the sources representing that phrase to the whole section. I am not targeting the whole section. I quite frankly don't understand that whole section and just independent researched the one phrase and found it to be branch specific.
- The sources that are used to reference 'Akshar-Purshottum Darshan' violate the WP:IS policy as the source is not independent and is closely affiliated with the subject. The author of the source behind that that phrase is openly part of one branch so it is dangerous to imply it is accepted by the entire sampradaya the way it is currently presented on this page. This also means the source has a conflict of interest. Kbhatt22 (talk) 09:11, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
New Comments
Let me start by addressing a few of Kbhatt22’s assertions that are, in my opinion, erroneous. In regards to “Edit C”, I think that Kbhatt22 is confusing the role of primary and secondary sources. First, some of the content of both the metaphysics and vedanta commentaries sections draws from Swaminarayan’s teachings in the Vachanamrut, which is a source accepted by the sampradaya as whole and does not favor any particular branch of the sampradaya. Therefore these sections are not branch-specific ideology and should remain as is.
Second, The vast majority of sources cited in this article are secondary academic sources that are not sectarian. These sources are reliable as per WP:RS.
Third, the personal affiliations of some authors have been questioned. However according to WP:RS the authors’ cited work cannot be discounted for their presumed affiliation as the work that has been cited here has been vetted by peer review and published by high-quality, independent academic publishers such as Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, etc. Moreover, they state they are writing about Swaminarayan’s views as explained in his oral teachings in the Vachanamrut, not views based on branch-specific scriptures.
Fourth, the baps.org link mentioned by Kbhatt22 links to an article about the establishment of the Akshar Purushottam Darshan Pith. The “pith”-or ‘seat of learning’ is a research institute dedicated to the study of Swaminarayan’s philosophy, which is called Akshar Purushottam Darshan, according to scholarly sources. In this linked article, there is no claim made that BAPS is establishing the Akshar Purushottam Darshan, only that they are establishing an research institute based on this philosophy which Swaminarayan propounded. In the cited article, the Kashi Vidvat Parishad, an independent group of scholars unaffiliated with the Swaminarayan Sampradaya, endorse the Akshar Purushottam Darshan of Swaminarayan as a valid Vedanta Darshan. So, this doesn’t show that the term Akshar Purushottam Darshan is confined solely to one group.
Finally, it is possible that the use of the terms Akshar-Purushottam Darshan or Brahma-Parabrahm Darshan to describe the collection of spiritual beliefs based on Swaminarayan’s teachings in the Vachanamrut may be the respective author’s valid, scholarly contribution to the field, so it makes sense that the Vachanmrut (primary source) makes no mention of these terms. For lack of a better example, one might think of it as later scholars terming Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s philosophy Achintya-bheda-bhed vada [1]. Though Chaitanya did not include that term in his writings himself, it describes his philosophy well, and thus has been accepted. Thus, one cannot make the argument that since Chaitanya didn’t coin the term and did not write about it anywhere, it cannot be used with regard to his philosophy. Similarly, Akshar-Purushottam Darshan is the term scholars are using for Swaminarayan’s metaphysics.
Now, getting to the actual text in the article: as the article stands currently, the term “Akshar-Purushottam Darshan” is mentioned 3 times, 1) as a redirect link for the metaphysics section, 2) in the vedanta commentaries section and 3) in the major branches section under BAPS. As per the above arguments, I don’t see anything wrong in this. However, Kbhatt22 asserts that this term may not be acceptable to all branches. Based on my research on this topic, I did not see any academic sources supporting Kbhatt22’s assertion, but when I was going through the rest of the Oxford University Press book that used the terms cited, I found another chapter by a Prof. Brahmbhatt that used an alternative term - Swaminarayan Vedanta - to describe Swaminarayan’s metaphysics. So, it seems both terms -- Akshar Purushottam Darshan and Swaminarayan Vedanta -- are used synonymously by scholars of this field. Since the term Swaminarayan Vedanta is talking about the Swaminarayan Sampradaya founded by Swaminarayan, it makes sense to call his metaphysics Swaminarayan Vedanta. Thus, I propose this alternative to the current text to take into account Kbhatt22’s personal preference while remaining true to the academic sources: In instance 1(redirect link for the metaphysics section), replace the term Akshar-Purushottam Darshan with Swaminarayan Vedanta. In instance 2(vedanta commentaries section), add the term Swaminarayan Vedanta to the existing text (I don’t think we can legitimately remove the existing term altogether since that is also a term used in scholarly literature), and for instance 3(BAPS section), keep it as it, since it is in the BAPS section and Kbhatt22 does not object to the term there. What do you all think? Skubydoo (talk · contribs), Apollo1203 (talk · contribs), Kbhatt22 (talk · contribs), Moksha88 (talk · contribs), ThaNDNman224 (talk · contribs), Applebutter221 (talk · contribs), and 136.2.32.181
Harshmellow717 (talk) 09:33, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, This was not an original proposal I made. Someone suggested removing it entirely, I dug in and found the sources originated from one branch and as discussed that has happened too much on this page and diversity is lacking. Even you have accepted that about images above. This is not "my personal preference" so I would prefer that you not make this a personal target please. I was not proposing removal of anything. Simply a reorder it on the page. I did ask above if someone had a source that remotely suggested 'Akshar Purshottam Darshan' was a phrase associated with another branch as I could not find anything to make that point. All the sources using that phrase simply originated from one branch or the author was directly from that branch. And if it in fact is a concept that can't be linked to other branches then we represent it as branch specific ideology. We have a situation where someone proposed removing it, someone suggested we keep it exactly the same.....I suggested if it is branch specific, we outline it as such for the reader and leave it like it is. Kbhatt22 (talk) 12:28, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
7th school of Vedanta
Similar to my post on the Akshar-Purshottam Darshan page I looked up the excerpt User: Joshua Jonathan referenced from Gavin Flood’s book and there are only two sentences about Swaminarayan in Flood’s book, and neither of them state that the Swaminarayan sect ascribes to the Shudhadvait philosophy. I then looked at the reference Flood cites, Raymond Williams’s The New Face of Hinduism, the Swaminarayan Religion (Cambridge University Press, 1984), but no specific page numbers. I reviewed this book and can’t find where Williams actually makes this claim. In fact, Williams clarifies in several instances that Swaminarayan’s philosophy has some similarities to Ramanujacharya’s Vishishtadvaita philosophy. Although Williams does briefly mention that the concept of Akshar is present in Vallabacharya’s Shudhadvait philosophy, he never states that the Swaminarayan philosophy is Shudhadvait or even similar to Shudhadvait. Since Gavin Flood’s book was published in 1996, other scholars have published more work in this area which clarify that his philosophy is different from Vallabhacharya and Ramunjacharya. WP: AGE MATTERS They do not describe Swaminarayan’s philosophy as Shudhadvait. WP:SOURCETYPES For example, you mention Arun Brahmbhatt’s chapter which cites the verse from the Shikshapatri, but he does so to highlight this confusion as he goes on to explain, “Despite this nominal alignment, Sahajanand Swami indirectly acknowledges that there is a difference between his system and Ramanuja’s.” The rest of his chapter is devoted to this analysis, so it would be a misrepresentation of this source to claim that Swaminarayan’s philosophy is Vishistadvait as well.
A quick Google search shows that the Akshar Purushottam Darshan has been recognized and discussed in the World Sanskrit Conference as a distinct Vedanta tradition (1). The World Sanskrit Conference brings together renowned Sanskritists and Indologists from around the world, and thus the recognition of Akshar Purushottam Darshan as a distinct Vedanta within this forum illustrates scholarly consensus. WP:RS/AC You say that this does not ‘change a bit of Flood’s observations’, but since Flood has not published on this topic since 1996 I assume you mean to say it does not contradict Flood’s observation. If that is what you mean, then I wonder which of Flood’s observations you are referring to? Please provide the specific page numbers for reference.
(1) https://www.easterneye.biz/world-sanskrit-conference-recognises-akshar-purushottam-darshan-as-distinct-vedanta-tradition/ Actionjackson09 (talk) 22:58, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
- See Talk:Akshar-Purushottam Darshan#Shuddhadvaita. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:08, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
- I'd already corrected that statement; please don't use an old edit as an excuse to remove sourced info, as you did here. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:51, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
I have moved the ‘Recognition as distinct school of Vedanta’ into the Beliefs section as it appears to be more appropriate there. The paragraph “According to Brahmbhatt…” which describes the difference between Swaminarayan’s system and Ramanuja’s seems out of place in the history section and is more appropriate for the beliefs section. In the beliefs section, it fits better because, first the metaphysics and soteriology are explained and now, how this system is related to other Vedanta systems is clarified. Apollo1203 (talk) 20:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
- To have the 'differences with'-info at the beliefs-section is okay; yet, what's missing are the similarities which you removed; see below. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:19, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Relation with Vallabha's Pushtimarg and Ramajuna's Vishtadvaita
Clarification on the origin of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya
A phrase added by Joshua Jonathan stating that the Swaminarayan Sampradaya was “developed out of Ramanand Swami’s Uddhav Sampradaya”, based on a source published by Mittal Publications. However, a closer examination of the academic sources on this topic make it clear that the author’s claim is a misunderstanding.
In the 2018 book by Williams, who’s academic work has been focused on the Swaminarayan Sampradaya, there is no mention of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya developing from another Uddhav Sampradaya. In I Patel (2018), the author describes how the Swaminarayan Sampradaya formed, and it does not mention its development from another distinct sampradaya. The exact quote from Patel’s work: “[Swaminarayan] concluded his 7-year, over 8000-mile journey upon meeting an ascetic named Ramanand Swami, whom he accepted as guru and from whom he received the names of Sahajanand Swami and Narayan Muni at initiation. Two years later, in 1801, Ramanand Swami announced the 21-year-old Sahajanand Swami as his successor. In one of his first actions as a leader, Sahajanand Swami asked his disciples to chant the new mantra of “Swaminarayan”….Over the next 29 years, Swaminarayan institutionalized his community and laid the foundation for its growth” (I Patel 2018, 2). From this quote, it is clear that Swaminarayan ‘institutionalized his community and laid the foundation for its growth’, not by growing from another sampradaya.
S Patel (2017) clarifies that ‘Uddhav Sampradaya’ was “another name” for the same group before Swaminarayan took over as Ramanand Swami’s successor and not a separate sampradaya. The Swaminarayan Sampradaya was called that before Swaminarayan became its successor; after he became the leader of the Sampradaya, ‘Swaminarayan’ soon became a popular eponym...for the tradition he established.” (I Patel 2018, 2) Describing it as the ‘Uddhav Sampraday’ would also be incorrect because, as S Patel (2018) describes, historically speaking, the tradition was known as the Swaminarayan Sampradaya after Swaminarayan became its leader.
Additionally, the publisher of the source you have used to make the claim is not a source that is well-known in academia nor would it take precedence over the 3 scholarly sources cited above (WP:RS/AC). The book used seems to also have a broad focus and would not be as reliable compared to scholarly works published solely on the Swaminarayan Sampradaya. (WP:RS; WP:SOURCETYPES; WP:SCHOLARSHIP)
Based on the above it should be removed from the article as it does not provide any substantive information, while likely misleading readers.Apollo1203 (talk) 19:56, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
As Actionjackson09 has mentioned, Gavin Flood’s work is from 1996 and fairly outdated (WP:AGEMATTERS). Also, Gavin Flood’s work is on the entire Hindu religion, not specific to the Swaminarayan Sampradaya. In fact, in his entire book, there are only 2 sentences about the Swaminarayan Sampradaya and it cannot be used to make a contentious claim about a particular tradition (WP:UNDUE). For those 2 sentences, Flood cites William’s work, however, in Williams (2018), there is no mention of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya’s development from the Pusthimarg. Scholarship from 2017 and 2018 refute Gavin Flood’s claim: I Patel (2018) has summarized the Swaminarayan Sampradaya in a scholarly encyclopedia entry in which there is no mention of the sampradaya developing from Vallabha’s pushtimarga: “[Swaminarayan] concluded his 7-year, over 8000-mile journey upon meeting an ascetic named Ramanand Swami, whom he accepted as guru and from whom he received the names of Sahajanand Swami and Narayan Muni at initiation. Two years later, in 1801, Ramanand Swami announced the 21-year-old Sahajanand Swami as his successor. In one of his first actions as a leader, Sahajanand Swami asked his disciples to chant the new mantra of “Swaminarayan”….Over the next 29 years, Swaminarayan institutionalized his community and laid the foundation for its growth.” In fact, this quote supports the contrary and shows that Swaminarayan concluded his journey and met Ramanand Swami, who named him his successor. Swaminarayan then “institutionalized his community and laid the foundation for its growth.” First, there is no mention of Gavin Flood’s claim in the encyclopedia entry. Second, if Flood’s claim was supported by consensus and scholars, there would be a mention of this. And finally, in the way Vallabh is described refutes the claim by Flood, “[Swaminarayan] referred to Vallabha’s son, Vitthalnath’s prescriptions on fasting, temple rituals, and festivals in presenting his modified conceptualizations of all three.” This is the only time that Vallabh is mentioned in the entry and it shows that Swaminarayan presented “modified conceptualizations” of fasting, temple rituals, and festivals that can be traced back to Vitthalnath’s prescriptions about the three. A journal article on the Swaminarayan Sampradaya features a sustained comparison of Vallabha’s pushtimarg and the Swaminarayan Sampradaya (S Patel 2017). Nowhere does the author write that the former developed from the latter. In fact, the author cautions against precisely the claim that the Swaminarayan Sampradaya developed from pushtimarg. The claim is further negated as S Patel explains: “I would like to caution against reading the pointed but limited agreement with the Pustimarga as a means by which to pin down the history of Swaminarayan development…[T]he latter’s self-presentation in light of the former was to help the nineteenth-century collective move efficiently towards its motive—the implementation of its own programme” (Patel 2017: 54).
The most recent and credible scholarly consensus on this point, then, is that the Swaminarayan Sampradaya did not “develop from Vallabha’s Pushtimarga” (WP:RS/AC) and it is misleading to put it in the article and warrants removal. Furthermore, the sentence “The various branches of the Swaminarayan-tradition narrate their origin as a biographical account of Swaminarayan,[5]” is vague and the language is a bit too convoluted to be easily comprehensible. My edit summarizes Kim’s quote better. Apollo1203 (talk) 01:00, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
- As fas as I can see, the sampradaya was founded by Ramananda; the Swaminarayan movement starts with Swaminarayan' appointment as successor in 1801 (Kim 2005). A specific Swaminarayan sampraday starts with the appointment of the two acharyas in 1826, or (retroactively) with the recognition of Gunatitanand Swami as Swaminarayan's successor. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:13, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
- Trying to recollect which cmt refers to which edit; let's try to present diffs and quotes wben commenting on each others comments. This thread refers to this removal, I guess, which changed
Developed out of Ramanand Swami's Uddhav Sampraday[1] and utilising elements of Vallabhas Pushtimarg to gain recognition,[2]
- into
Utilising elements of Vallabhas Pushtimarg to gain recognition,[2]
- I guess that this revert, which removed
According to Gavin Flood, the Swaminarayan Sampradaya, founded in 1801, developed from Vallabaha's Pushtimarg,[3] popular in Gujarat,[4]
References
- ^ J. J. Roy Burman (2005). Gujarat Unknown. Mittal Publications. Retrieved June 13, 2009. Page 17
- ^ a b Patel 2017.
- ^ Gavin Flood (1996), An Introduction to Hinduism, Cambridge Universitg Press, p.142
- ^ Jacobs 2010, p. 114.
- Flood may be somewhat of the mark here, but simple fact is that Swaminarayan was appointed successor of the Uddhav Sampradaya; he did not create his organisation/school out of nowhere. This is also relevant because the Uddhav Sampradaya was a Ramanuja-sampradaya, which lends it authority; quite relevant in an Indian context.
- Patel argues that Swaminayaran used elements of the Pushtimarg, because this was recognisable for Gujaratins. Again, the Swaminayaran-school was not created out of nowhere. We can change the formulation, but simple fact is that multiple WP:RS refer to these connections with the Pushti-marg and the Ramajuna-sampradaya. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:02, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
According to the first part of your post above, initially there was a “Sampradaya” (led by Ramanand), then one day the leader and name of it changed, and so according to you it suddenly it stopped being a “sampradaya” and became a “movement”, and then 30 years later the leader died and new ones took over and somehow, what had been a “movement” suddenly reverted to a “Sampradaya” again? According to your logic, every change of leadership should cause the name of the group to alternate between “movement” and “Sampradaya”? How does a Sampradaya become a movement when the name or leader changes, and then a movement becomes a sampraday when the leader again changes? I have not seen this rationale in any of the academic sources, and also I’m confused as to how that would even work.
I feel that in the academic sources, “movement” is one of the imprecise synonyms of, or translations of, the term sampraday (other translations are also used), particularly in scholarship on Swaminarayan. See Williams 2018, page 2; referring to the Swaminarayan sampraday, he notes: “The common word in India for such groups is sampraday[a], which is difficult to translate.”
Ramanand Swami indeed founded a sampraday, and then appointed Swaminarayan the leader of the same sampraday (Williams 2018, 18). Some time after Swaminarayan became the leader, the sampraday became known as the Swaminarayan sampraday (I Patel 2018, 2). Put in other words: when Swaminarayan was appointed successor of Ramananda Swami, the sampraday became known as the Swaminarayan Sampradaya.
Now, addressing the second part of your post: That he didn’t create his organization out of nowhere is fairly communicated by noting that he was appointed the successor of the sampraday by Ramanand Swami (namely, that he succeeded Ramanand Swami), no? This accurately describes where the sampraday came from. The ‘connections’ that the sources refer to don’t establish where the sampraday developed from, as I’m sure you recognize; therefore, your edit that I removed, “developed from Vallabaha's Pushtimarg” wasn’t appropriate.
The question we then should consider is are the connections significant enough to communicate in the article. It seems, not, I think. Consider S Patel (2017), also quoted above (which seems a primary claim): “I would like to caution against reading the pointed but limited agreement with the Pustimarga as a means by which to pin down the history of Swaminarayan development...[T]he latter’s self-presentation in light of the former was to help the nineteenth-century collective move efficiently towards its motive—the implementation of its own programme” (Patel 2017: 54). This seems to me to suggest that delving in the article into the connections to Pustimarga would grant undue weight to something that isn’t so significant to the history of the sampraday that it would deserve a place in a wiki article focused broadly on the entirety of the sampraday, history and present. If the article was specifically focused on how the sampraday relates to other sampraday, I’m sure we would be justified in adding in detail the complexities of S Patel (2017)’s discussion which indicate that while there were certain similarities in the two groups making for a correlative relationship, academic evidence does not seem to be present for a causative relationship, which Joshua Jonathan’s edits had claimed (and so were removed).
Also, in my discussion above, I talk of how Flood’s quote is rebutted by recent scholarship. Other than Flood’s introduction to Hinduism, and S Patel 2017 (I’ve quoted one of her representative claims), which are the sources you’re referring to in support of your claim? It seems like you've referenced a source published by Mittal Publications which doesn’t seem to be an academic press. In further support of your argument, you also reference underneath your talk page post, the source Jacobs 2010, p. 114. But when I checked that source, Jacobs 2010 talks nowhere of your point on page 114. He mentions Pusti Marga in this quote (on p.114): “Many Gujaratis identify with one of two sects (sampradaya): Pusti Marga or the Swaminarayan sampradaya. Pusti Marga (Path of Grace) was founded by Vallabhacarya (1479–1531). It has become one of the most significant sectarian groups in Western India. It combines a focus on devotion to Krishna with a reinterpretation of Vedanta, which Vallabha termed ‘pure non dualism’ (shuddhadvaita). The Swaminarayan sampradaya was founded in the nineteenth century by Swaminarayan. Its central focus is on the lineage of gurus begun by Swaminarayan....”
I’m sure you recognize, it may come off to some as odd to cite a source in support of your point when the source not only doesn’t support your point, but suggests against it. Jacobs, it seems very clear, is describing two separate sampradays, mentioning nothing about how one sampraday is connected to the other. That he doesn’t mention how one is connected to the other actually indicates that this is a point that is insignificant (or not discussed in scholarship), and therefore didn’t warrant space in the introduction text. Nor, then, should we give undue weight to S Patel (2017)’s mention of such connections, which were in fact in service of a larger claim, that I have quoted above (from page 54). I hope this is clear.
Finally, I acknowledge that issues of WP:Undue can be subjective, and much depends on how the information is presented, or even whether it can be presented properly without giving undue weight. If Joshua Jonathan, you feel that taking all of this information into account you can propose something that would give proper weight to this point in this article and be accurate to the existing scholarship, maybe you can propose something on the talk page and we can see that other editors also think. Apollo1203 (talk) 04:01, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Out of context regarding Swaminarayan and Vallabha
The specific point that Joshua Jonathan has added, “utilising elements of Vallabha’s Pushtimarg to gain recognition” is giving an intermediate claim in the cited source undue emphasis (WP:UNDUE). Within the same source cited, the following quote shows that the claim added is misleading, “By identifying with the widely-recognised Pushtimarg in the course of worshipping Krsna the Svaminarayan foundation could be related to an identifiable, solidified ethos. Particularly, assimilation would be achieved more effortlessly with the adoption of select Pushtimarg symbols. And yet, this would not require the sacrifice of core ideas or independence …” (S Patel 2017: 53). (WP:Cherrypicking) The quote you have added is making a historical claim for the sampradaya which S Patel (2017) is clearly not emphasizing (WP:OR). There are more quotes within the same source that make it clear that Pushtimarg was a matter of identification and not for gaining recognition: “I would like to caution against reading the pointed but limited agreement with the Pushtimarg as a means by which to pin down the history of Svaminarayan development” (S Patel 2017: 54); “Though it has been valuable to understand how the Svaminarayan community engaged with the Pushtimarg, we should pause before implicitly extending this relationship to Sahajanand’s entire vision” (S Patel 2017: 57); the Pushtimarg (amongst other influences) was one reference point, not a catalyst for Sahajanand’s initiative (S Patel 2017: 57). S Patel (2017) clearly asserts that she does not stand behind any claim about Swaminarayan "utilising" Pushtimarg for an ulterior purpose, like gaining recognition. She says, "to be clear, I am not implying that forging a connection to the Pushtimarg excluded the possibility of genuine respect and affection for it by Sahajanand, but retaining likeness to establishment also would have been potent in sanctioning novelty" (53). She uses the phrase "would have been potent," meaning that retaining likeness may have helped sanction the novelty that colored Swaminarayan's distinct and categorically novel tradition. But that such a utilization of the support of established traditions did occur is a claim Patel does not unequivocally affirm. She, in fact, thinks it important to clarify precisely that she doesn't mean to say that. And thus quoting her to suggest Swaminarayan's “utilising elements of Vallabha’s Pushtimarg to gain recognition” is misrepresenting her intention and involves cherrypicking (WP:Cherrypicking) a quote. Critical information has been omitted from the source to synthesize an interpretation which is misleading and false and warrants removal. (WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, WP:OR)Apollo1203 (talk) 20:04, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
- Any suggestion for a better formulation? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:09, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
- You are refering to :this edit? It removed
Utilising elements of Vallabhas Pushtimarg to gain recognition,[1]
References
- Your response already makes clear that Patel has a relevant point here. We can reconsider the exact formulation, but not the inclusion, I think. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:10, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Swaminarayan's philosophical foundations
Arbitrary break #1
The quote inserted by Joshua Jonathan "The philosophical foundation for Swaminarayan devotionalism is the viśiṣṭādvaita, or qualified non-dualism, of Rāmānuja (1017–1137 ce)”, is citing Hanna Kim’s quote out of context. WP:QUOTE, WP:RSCONTEXT. When one looks at Kim’s other works, it becomes clear that what she intends to say is not literally that the philosophical foundation of Swaminarayan’s devotional philosophy is viśiṣṭādvaita but that there are important similarities between the two, but that they are still fundamentally distinct. In Hanna (2001), she clarifies this: “in upholding the form of akshar as the entity through whom moksha is achieved, Swaminarayan upasana [or devotion] is connected to but departs from the dualism of Ramanujacharya's vishishtadvaita” (324). Highlighting one example of how they are seen to be connected, Paramtattvadas (2017), whom Kim cites throughout her works (see Kim 2014), writes, “the śarīra–śarīrin relationship found within the Viśiṣṭādvaita school of Vedānta...is used almost identically in the Swaminarayan system.” Paramtattvadas further clarifies that this connection or similarity leads “those without a complete understanding of the Swaminarayan Hindu tradition to erroneously identify it as a ‘modified’ version of Viśiṣṭādvaita Vedānta” (319). He then cautions that one should not conflate the two distinct schools of Vedanta, nor should one then see Swaminarayan’s devotional philosophy as foundationally based in Ramanuja’s. Quoting Kim out of context makes it seem that the two are foundationally the same, when, as Paramtattvadas (2017) clarifies, “a more careful and thorough study [of the Swaminarayan system] would reveal that even closely related Hindu systems [like Ramanuja’s Viśiṣṭādvaita] can differ in some fundamental ways, not just in the details” (319). To elaborate on the same point, Arun Brahmbhatt states,“Despite [a] nominal alignment [between the two], Sahajanand Swami indirectly acknowledges that there is a difference between his system and Ramanuja’s. Sahajanand Swami makes explicit reference to Ramanuja’s system of metaphysics in both the Shikshapatri (45–6) and the Vachanamrut (308), in which he explains that ‘Ramanuj’s [sic] principle is that jiva, maya and Purushottam are eternal’. Elsewhere, when describing his own system of metaphysics to a proponent of another school of Vedanta, Sahajanand Swami states, ‘from the Vedas, the Purāns [sic], the itihās [sic] and the Smrutis, I have formed the principle that jiva, ishvar, maya, Brahma and Parabrahma are all eternal’ (Vachanāmrut, 597). At this most basic level of the articulation of metaphysical identities, while Ramanuja only acknowledges three entities, Sahajanand Swami’s unique system describes five (“Swaminarayan Hinduism,” 142). Apollo1203 (talk) 00:59, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Right after Kim (2005) states “the philosophical foundation for Swaminarayan devotionalism is the viśiṣṭādvaita,” in the very next sentence, she highlights this very same difference between the two philosophies. This fundamental philosophical distinction regarding Swaminarayan’s philosophy positing five entities is elaborated in Kim 2013, 2014. The analysis of her works make it clear that her intention is not to construe them as foundationally related. A study focused expressly on ascertaining similarities and differences between theologies like that of Ramanuja and Swaminarayan’s concludes, “one sees [in Swaminarayan’s theology] a...doctrine that is metaphysically distinct from those presented...by Shankara, Ramanuja, and Vallabha” (“Swaminarayan Hinduism,” OUP, 186). With all of this in mind, it is clear that the quote from Hanna Kim’s work is presented out of context, and thereby communicates an inaccuracy and warrants removal WP:RS/AC. WP:Cherrypicking, WP:QUOTE. Apollo1203 (talk) 20:17, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
- You removed sourced info, giving a personal interpretation of this info. Williams, and the Supreme Court of India, have also noted the viśiṣṭādvaita roots. What's more, Paramtattvadas also acknowledges the similarities between visistadvaita and Swaminarayanism. WP:RS/AC seems to be that Swaminarayan's teachings are rooted in viśiṣṭādvaita, yet different from it. What you are doing now is interpreting a source, giving an interpretation which is in line with the stance of the BAPS. Removing this info means that you kind of WP:CENSOR the article, ignoring WP:RS, and violating WP:NPOV. Standard Wiki-practice in cases like this, when you disagree with info, is to add additional views, not to remove sourced info. We inform people about what the sources say; we do not prevent them from being informed about different points of view. See also WP:TRUTH. The info you removed could be re-added at the start of the Beliefs-section, together with Paramtattvadas comments. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 10:27, 16 August 2020 (UTC) / update Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:51, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
- You refer to this edit, which removed
According to Hanna H. Kim, "The philosophical foundation for Swaminarayan devotionalism is the viśiṣṭādvaita, or qualified non-dualism, of Rāmānuja (1017–1137 ce)."[1][note 1]
- Notes
- ^ According to Brahmbatt, "Certain portions of Swaminarayan Vedanta commentaries indicate an affinity for Vishishtadvaita’s interpretation of canonical texts; others indicate overlap with Shuddhadvaita School, and yet others are altogether unique interpretations.”[2] See Shikshapatri Shlok 121: "Vishishtadvaita is accepted as the Lord’s philosophy. From the various philosophies - Advaita, Kevaladvaita, Shuddhadvaita, Vishishtadvaita etc. the Lord accepts Ramanuja’s philosophy of Vishishtadvaita (special theory of non-dualism) as accurate."[web 1]
- References
- Web-references
- See my comments above. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:26, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Arbitrary break #2
Reply by Apollo1203
|
---|
I’m not sure which page in Williams’s texts you are referring to. (I think you would agree that precision in this discussion, by including page numbers and publication years, would be useful to facilitate a productive conversation.) But here is one to which you could be referring, in Williams (2018): “They are not Shrivaishnavas, but they do propagate a theology that developed in relation to the modified nondualism [or viśiṣṭādvaita] of Ramanuja and they follow the devotional path within Vaishnavism” (2018, 38). Williams is not, here or elsewhere, asserting any claim about Swaminarayan’s philosophy being “rooted,” as you put it, in viśiṣṭādvaita. He uses the phrasing “developed in relation to” in alluding to a general point about the commentarial tradition. Commentarial traditions of Vedanta, which buttress a philosophy like viśiṣṭādvaita, are always conversing and developing in relation to those that precede it. They communicate with those preceding it, and thus are necessarily “related” to those that precede it. This, however, does not mean one is rooted in another. I’m sure you can appreciate this important nuance that separates “rooted” and “developed in relation to.” Williams makes amply clear that, when he is talking about Swaminarayan’s philosophy, he is referring to this process of a novel and categorically distinct philosophical tradition developing in relation to ones that preceded it. Consider the following, in which Williams exemplifies what he means by ‘developing in relation to’ other traditions: “[Swaminarayan] also agreed with Ramanuja, against Shankara, that the supreme person is not formless. In fact, he taught that god always has a divine form, and that to deny that god has a form is to commit the unredeemable sin of blasphemy….Indeed, his eternal form is in the shape of a human, yet still divine and transcendent. The advantage to the devotee of the divine reality in human form is that he is always available for worship as well as meditation” (Williams, 2018, 86). As he notes, Swaminarayan “agreed” with Ramanuja, “against” Shankara, in asserting a claim about God’s form. This is how Vedanta philosophical traditions work (See, for example, pages 26 ff. of Andrew Nicholson’s Unifying Hinduism [2010] in which he describes specific examples of conversations--involving agreement and disagreement, similarities and differences--between early Vedanta schools). They are dialogical in nature: the new tradition agrees and disagrees with the ones that precede it. Swaminarayan is, in this case, agreeing with Ramanuja and, in doing so, disagreeing with Shankara. But he also importantly disagrees with Ramanuja, as Williams asserts on the same page: “Ramanuja accepted three eternal entities: the self (jiva), the deity (ishvara), and the principle of flux (maya). Sahajanand said five eternal entities exist: self, deities, maya, the abode of god (akshar), and the supreme person (purushottam). He taught that the supreme person is the only unconditioned ultimate reality and that all other entities, though separate realities, are contingent on the will of the supreme person. He added that the abode of god (akshar) and the supreme person (purushottam) are the only realities that transcend the flux of the world (maya) and are unaffected by it” (Williams, 2018, 86). Of several, two metaphysically important differences are accentuated here: 1) the positing of akshar, the abode of God, as a distinct entity, and 2) the positing of “five eternal entities.” Williams, throughout, continually shows that the two philosophies are metaphysically distinct, refuting the idea that the latter is rooted in the former. Here is one more example: “[Swaminarayan] elaborated on [the] duality [“within the ultimate reality”] by indicating that two entities, Purushottam and akshar, are eternal and free from the illusion of maya. Akshar is the eternal abode of Purushottam and has an impersonal form….The emphasis in the sect on these two principles stands as a further distinction from Ramanuja’s modified nondualism” (Williams, 2018, 91). As is clear, Williams is differentiating two philosophies here and not highlighting a particular difference within two fundamentally similar philosophies. This is why he says that the distinction he describes is a “further distinction from Ramanuja’s modified nondualism [or viśiṣṭādvaita].” He is clearly distinguishing between two separate philosophical traditions. Another word Williams uses, to represent this same idea, is “adapted” (Williams, 2018, 200), which necessarily carries the same import as “developed in relation to” and the process of agreement and disagreement, on account of the fact that he is referring back to Chapter 3, in which the foregoing quotes appear. The scholarly consensus is, in fact, that Swaminarayan’s philosophy is not rooted in viśiṣṭādvaita. Brahmbhatt (2016) puts precisely the same point that Williams asserts in the foregoing: “Swaminarayan commentaries, though each playing a different role through unique commentarial agendas, are all similar in their commitment to intertextually referencing Ramanuja’s authoritative commentary. They all contend with the spectre of Ramanuja, be it accepting his claims, adjusting them, or refuting them outright— either with recourse to other schools of Vedanta or not” (Brahmbhatt, 2016, 152). Just like Ramanuja accepted, adjusted, or refuted Shankara’s commentarial moves, so too Swaminarayan commentators have historically done so. And they are not just communicating with Ramanuja but also with “other schools of Vedanta,” as Brahmbhatt makes clear. Put simply, just as one would not say that Ramanuja’s philosophy is “rooted” in Shankara’s merely because (among other things) Ramanuja essentially follows Shankara’s commentary on the first chapter of the Vedanta Sutras (one canonical text of Vedanta), in many of the verses after he has finished arguing against it in V.S. 1.1.1 (see for example George C. Adams’s The Structure and Meaning of Bādarāyaṇa’s Brahma Sūtras: A Translation and Analysis of Adhyaya 1 [1993]), so too Swaminarayan’s philosophy cannot be said to be rooted in Ramanuja’s, as Brahmbhatt makes clear. Consider, too, this excerpt from Trivedi (2016) that describes how the Vedanta tradition works, showing how the Swaminarayan’s philosophy is a philosophy on its own and converses with those preceding it: “Shankara (c. eighth century) had an enormous impact on the Vedanta tradition. His advaita (nondualism) system was established, qualified, refuted, and or re-established by every Vedanta theologian to follow him. And there were many who followed: Ramanuja (eleventh–twelfth centuries), Madhva (thirteenth century), Vallabha, and those in Chaitanya’s tradition (both fifteenth–sixteenth centuries), to mention four of the most prominent. It is within the Vedantic tradition, particularly as expressed in the thinking of these four bhakti ācāryas (acharyas), that Swaminarayan’s doctrine emerged. Swaminarayan was keen to engage with this Vedanta commentarial tradition by presenting his own theological system. Though he did not write any commentaries himself, his oral discourses were compiled in the Vachanamrut, which served as a guide and roadmap as his disciples produced precisely the sorts of commentaries that would establish Swaminarayan theology within this broader, older tradition” (Trivedi, 2016, 134). As Trivedi (2016) shows, Swaminarayan was engaging with an entire commentarial tradition, not just one person. Now, you worry that removing claims about Swaminarayan’s philosophy’s being “rooted in” other philosophies constitutes de-historicizing it and removing context. There are three reasons why you need not worry. First, as was made clear, there is no claim in academic consensus to be made about Swaminarayan’s philosophy being “rooted” in its preceding philosophies. Second, one is neither de-historicizing nor removing context from an article by excising information that isn’t directly related to the topic at hand. Granted, if the article were to be focused on a comparison between Swaminarayan’s philosophy and those that temporally preceded it, then not including information regarding where the former has agreed with the latter, where they have disagreed, and where the former refutes or modifies the latter would all be really useful to include. It would add considerable value to such an article. But this article is focused on the Swaminarayan Sampradaya, and thus it does not seem relevant to add anything about the relation between Swaminarayan philosophy and those that preceded it in this article, on pain of including a full-blown comparison between all other philosophies and that of Swaminarayan. Ramanuja, after all, is not Swaminarayan’s only interlocutor, as is clear from the foregoing discussion. Consider, for instance, the following similarities and difference between Swaminarayan’s philosophy and Shankara, Ramanuja, Madhva, Vallabha, and Chaitanya--established by scholarship expressly focused on such a comparative effort:
A difference between Swaminarayan and Ramanuja: “Ramanuja advocates for Purushottama as the creator of the world and an identification of Purushottama and ishvara; whereas, for Swaminarayan, Brahman, which is dependent on Parabrahman, is not only an ontologically distinct entity from Purushottama, but is also accepted as the creator (jagat-kartā) and inspirer (jagat-preraka) of the world. In his discourses, Swaminarayan does not identify either Purushottama or Brahman with ishvara. His metaphysical system describes ishvara as ontologically distinct from the conscious entities: jiva, Brahman, and Parabrahman” (Aksharanand, 2016, 183). And so on. In this way, there are metaphysically important similarities and differences between Swaminarayan and all other Vedanta theologians (including, as was shown, Shankara, Ramanuja, Madhva, Vallabha, and Chaitanya). If one thinks it prudent to add similarities and differences between Ramanuja and Swaminarayan in this article, then one would also have to do so for all other philosophers, to judiciously represent the scholarship. But doing so in this article, which is focused on the Swaminarayan Sampradaya, would be improper, because such additions are not relevant, on account of the focus of this article. Put otherwise, including similarities between Swaminarayan’s philosophy and all others would change the entire focus of this article, which is supposed to be on the Swaminarayan Sampradaya. I do value your historical concerns about placing Swaminarayan’s philosophy in relation with others, but that seems to be out of place in this article. There is just too much stuff to include, and including only certain info is, as I think you aptly put it, “an interpretation.” Third and more specifically, the edit you seem to have made in adding this context into the article constitutes unnecessary repetition. You have added:
There are three points being made here about Swaminarayan’s philosophical system: 1) Sahajananad Swami expressed his inclination towards Ramanuja's Vishishtadvaita. 2) He acknowledges that there is a difference between his system and Ramanuja’s. 3) One such difference is that he posits five metaphysical entities, and Ramanuja posits three. All three of these points are already stated in the first paragraph of the Metaphysics section. The edit is, in fact, a point-by-point rehashing of something that is already lucidly stated in the article text, but with unnecessary quoting and less citations. For convenience I've copied the relevant excerpt from Metaphysics in the article text:
Specific responses to updated comments:
The removal was of a cherrypicked quote that does not accurately represent Kim’s intent, as was made clear in the previous discussion (I humbly suggest that we not just say here, without qualification, that “you removed sourced info” or something like that, without judiciously engaging with the rationale that one gives in doing so).
Claiming that “Paramtattvadas also acknowledges the similarities between visistadvaita and Swaminarayanism,” and then in the subsequent sentence gleaning from that “Swaminarayan's teachings are rooted in viśiṣṭādvaita,” is an interpretation, and one that is categorically incorrect. Similarities do not, in any way, entail a philosophy’s being rooted in another. Revisiting the Paramtattvadas (2017)’s quote that was cited in the discussion above your comment--and which you seem to be invoking here--it becomes clear that, after highlighting that similarity (which is just one of several), Paramtattvadas notes, “a more careful and thorough study [of the Swaminarayan system] would reveal that even closely related Hindu systems [like Ramanuja’s Viśiṣṭādvaita] can differ in some fundamental ways, not just in the details.” Your initial focus on the similarity and then overlooking the very next statement, which repudiates the idea that one is “rooted” in the other, is a paradigmatic case of interpretation, at best, and a violation of NPOV, at worst. Paramtattvadas accentuates that they are distinct philosophies in which certain similarities persist. Not only is he rejecting the idea that one is “rooted” in the other, but he is cautioning a reader from jumping to conclusions about asserting fundamental similarities between the two philosophies.
First, along with judiciously citing and engaging with scholarly material, please also be judicious in citing WP policies: For instance, WP:CENSOR is not relevant here, because it deals with considerations regarding offensive material. But I understand what is being said. Certainly, standard wiki-practice dictates that one assert an academic consensus, and not what one personally thinks. As is seen based on the above discussion, Wiliams (2018), Gadhia (2016), Aksharanand (2016), Trivedi (2016), Brahmbhatt (2016), Paramtattvadas (2017), and others affirm the notion that Swaminarayan’s philosophy and Ramanuja’s are distinct philosophical systems. This is understood through the language they use in engaging with Swaminarayan’s philosophy (I think you would agree, at the least, that reading and understanding these works, which are focused on Swaminarayan’s philosophy, is necessary to understand their intentions, before asserting that “WP:RS/AC seems to be...”). As is clear, what is categorically wrong, and thus constitutes original research and improper interpretation, is to say that the sources claim that one philosophy is rooted in the other. And it does not seem proper to wield Kim (2005)’s one statement out of context in asserting an interpretation that is not only against the scholarly consensus, but is contextualized in her other works--as we mentioned in the earlier discussion. What all of these scholars show is, as was made clear earlier, that there exist similarities (and differences) between Swamianrayan and all other Vedanta philosophies, but this does not constitute grounds for asserting that one philosophy is rooted in another, a claim that you seem to hold on to but is one that none of these scholars affirm. Thus, not featuring a discussion of the similarities between Swaminarayan’s philosophy and others does not at all constitute dehistoricization. It’s a question of focus and relevance (this was addressed earlier). To recap, therefore,
I am happy to continue this discussion with you, because it is something that I have done extensive reading on. But I only ask if you can respond with careful and thorough remarks that judiciously engage with the relevant scholarship. Apollo1203 (talk) 04:25, 20 August 2020 (UTC) |
Arbitrary break #3
I see your point, but I cannot fully agree with you. Being different from Vishistadvaita does not exclude being rooted in; being rooted in does not mean 'being the same as'.
Regarding Kim (2005), you stated:
what she intends to say is not literally that the philosophical foundation of Swaminarayan’s devotional philosophy is viśiṣṭādvaita but that there are important similarities between the two, but that they are still fundamentally distinct
This what Kim (2005) states:
The philosophical foundation for Swaminarayan devotionalism is the viśiṣṭādvaita, or qualified non-dualism, of Rāmānuja (1017–1137 ce). Sahajanand Swami expanded Rāmānuja's delineation of three separate and eternal existential entities into five
In Swaminarayan viśiṣṭādvaita
BAPS followers do not follow the ācāryas and temples of the original gāddīs but have constructed temples to reflect their interpretation of Swaminarayan viśiṣṭādvaita.
Paramtattvadas may have other ideas, but this what Kim states.
Regarding Williams, Williams (2001) p.14 and p.35 refer to Vishishtadvaita. P.35 (also quoted by you):
They are not Shrivaishnavas, but they do propagate a theology that developed in relation to the modified nondualism [or viśiṣṭādvaita] of Ramanuja and they follow the devotional path within Vaishnavism
is indeed not the same as "rooted in," but also not completely different. Williams furher makes clear that the acharyas derive their authority from the Ramanuja-sampradaya, and from their family-ties to Swaminarayan. Regarding (emphasis mine) Williams, throughout, continually shows that the two philosophies are metaphysically distinct, refuting the idea that the latter is rooted in the former
: being "metaphysically distinct" does not exclude roots in Vishistadvaita. "Refuting" is an interpretation of William's stance.
Regarding The scholarly consensus is, in fact, that Swaminarayan’s philosophy is not rooted in viśiṣṭādvaita.
, this (older) edit removed
The basic principle of the philosophy of Swaminarayan is vishistadvaita (qualified non-dualism) as propounded by Ramanujacharya.[1][2][3][4]
References
- ^ Dinkar Joshi; Yogesh Patel (2005). Glimpses of Indian Culture. Star Publications. pp. 92–93. ISBN 9788176501903.
- ^ Williams 2001, p. 14
- ^ "Vishistadvaita, The philosophy of the Swaminarayan Sect". hinduwebsite.com.
- ^ "Ramanujacharya". akshardham.org.
So, the Vishistadvaita-roots seem to have been noticed by others as well. Not only fellow editors, but also scholars:
- Rachel Dwyer (2018), The Swaminarayan Movement, in: Knut A. Jacobsen, Pratap Kumar (eds), South Asians in the Diaspora: Histories and Religious Traditions, BRILL, p.185:
While vishistadvaita forms the theological and philosophical basis of the Swamiyaranam sect, there are several significant differences.
- P.186:
The sect's origin in Vishistadvaita
- Roshen Dalal (2020), Hinduism: An Alphabetical Guide, Penguin Books India, p.403:
Swaminarayan's philosophy is said to be similar to Vishistadvaita, with some minor differences.
- Gwilym Beckerlegge (2008), Colonialism, Modernity, and Religious Identities: Religious Reform Movements in South Asia, Oxford University Press:
Swaminarayan theology is largely dependent on Ramanuja's theistic Vedanta and the Vishishtadvaita tradition
Philosophical foundation, based in, similar to, dependent on - we can word-smith the nuances of the phrasing, but I see no academic consensus that Vishtadvaita is not foundational to Swaminarayan's theology/philosophy; on the contrary. Plus, that he incorporated elements of Vallabha's devotional praxis. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:19, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Apollo's Response
First, I would like to make clear: Conversations ought to involve carefully responding to all of the information presented by your interlocutor, something which you decided not to do and, as you say, without “read[ing] your response in detail,” you have decided to respond. It is long but necessary. I think you may agree that it is neither fair nor helpful to respond to something without reading it carefully. In the future, I would like it if you engage with each and every point that is made and the scholarship that is cited, before deciding to posit your own point of view. I am not at all saying your point of view is not worthy of consideration, but I am making clear that conversing without consideration of other points of view, which your opponents hold, is not helpful.
Now, before engaging with the sources you have shared, I think it is important to understand whether they are academic.
You have cited the following non-academic sources:
- Dinkar Joshi; Yogesh Patel (2005). Glimpses of Indian Culture. Star Publications. pp. 92–93. ISBN 9788176501903.
- "Vishistadvaita, The philosophy of the Swaminarayan Sect". hinduwebsite.com.
- "Ramanujacharya". Akshardham.org.
- Roshen Dalal (2020), Hinduism: An Alphabetical Guide, Penguin Books India, p.403.
Even if you give credence to these sources, they do not purport to give any scholarly consensus on Swaminarayan’s philosophy. So, in this discussion about an academic consensus, we will disregard them, unless you think that they are, in fact, academic. Let me know what you think.
You have cited the following academic sources:
- Williams 2001, p. 14 and 35
- Gwilym Beckerlegge (2008), Colonialism, Modernity, and Religious Identities: Religious Reform Movements in South Asia, Oxford University Press:
- Rachel Dwyer (2018), The Swaminarayan Movement, in: Knut A. Jacobsen, Pratap Kumar (eds), South Asians in the Diaspora: Histories and Religious Traditions, BRILL,
Let us consider these sources in turn and what they say:
- Williams (2001) page 14 does not at all refer to anything about Swaminarayan’s philosophy being rooted in any other philosophy. What it speaks of is a childhood incident of Swaminarayan: “Similarities between some of the stories and those from the Christian gospels are evident in some of the story traditions in Gujarat. A story about his childhood often told in the satsang concerns his encounter with the teachers of philosophy in the holy city of Varanasi. He was taken to Varanasi by his father; and there he defeated in debate the philosophers of two important schools, the representatives of the Advaita non-dualism of Shankara and the representatives of the Dvaita dualism of Madhya. He was victorious in propounding the philosophy of Ramanuja, the modified non-dualism of Vishistadvaita” (Williams, 2001, 14; emphasis mine) Swaminarayan clearly represented and propounded Ramanuja’s philosophy. But this has nothing to do with what his own philosophy is. It is an unsupported interpretation to glean from this that his own philosophy is based on or “rooted in” Ramanuja’s. The only proposition that you can faithfully glean is that Swaminarayan represented a position and was victorious in doing so in a debate, when he was a child. The most you can extrapolate is that his philosophy, if it’s being referred to here, is similar to Ramanuja’s, so he decided to represent it in the debate. Importantly, Williams seems to take the story with a grain of salt, asserting that it is “told in the Satsang” and comparing it to the Christian gospels. But even if you want to say that Williams is here making an important point here about two philosophies, there is no evidence to suggest that one is rooted in another. Please reconsider the passages from Williams (2018) cited in the above discussion whose language makes clear that he does not see the Swaminarayan philosophy as being based in Ramanuja’s. He’s talking about them as one would any two philosophies in the Vedanta commentarial tradition.
- Let us now move to the quote you seem to be citing from page 35 in Williams (2001): “They are not Shrivaishnavas, but they do propagate a philosophy similar to the modified non-dualism of Ramanuja and follow the devotional path within Vaishnavism.” If you go back to the previous discussion, I have already referred to this quote. Clearly, similarity does not mean “rooted in.” Williams is here merely pointing out a similarity, which does not maintain any claim about Swaminaryan’s philosophy being “rooted in” Ramanuja’s.
- Sorry if you are already going to do this. But please also reconsider the scholarly consensus cited above: Wiliams (2018), Gadhia (2016), Aksharanand (2016), Trivedi (2016), Brahmbhatt (2016), Paramtattvadas (2017), all of which affirm that they are two philosophies that are conversing with each other, in the larger Vedanta commentarial tradition, and hence similar to and different from each other. Nowhere in there is it asserted that one is rooted in the other. And moreover Gadhia (2016), Aksharanand (2016), Trivedi (2016), and Brahmbhatt (2016), specifically, are sources that expressly deal with the relationship of Swaminarayan’s philosophy with his predecessors’. But they assert the contrary of your point of view. As Trivedi (2016), for instance, asserts (this is from the previous discussion): “Swaminarayan was keen to engage with this Vedanta commentarial tradition by presenting his own theological system.” He presented his “own” theological tradition in conversation with and, as Williams (2018) puts it, “in relation to” his predecessors’ philosophies.
- Let us move to Gwilym Beckerlegge (2008) and Rachel Dwyer (2018).
The former says: “Swaminarayan theology is largely dependent on Ramanuja's theistic Vedanta and the Vishishtadvaita tradition.” I haven’t read his work but there are three things I do notice. First, his book is an edited volume in which are considered traditions from all over South Asia. Thus it cannot be used to make a claim about scholarly consensus about Swaminarayan Sampradaya, what to say about his philosophy. Second, as an academic review of his text states, in the text “ten essays analyze instances in which the forces of religious, historical,and social change designated “reform” enunciate religious identities expressing complex and contrasting relationships to both past and present.” The main focus of the book is about analyzing traditions through the lens of reform. Thus, neither the focus of the text and nor the lens have anything to do with philosophy. Which makes clear that it ought not be drawn upon in this discussion. Third, “dependent on,” need not mean rooted in or based in. It could mean a lot of things, such as Swaminarayan’s philosophy is dependent on, for some of its philosophical arguments, on Ramanuja’s philosophy. Or Swaminarayan’s philosophy is terminologically dependent on Ramanuja’s. Both are claims that you can make about any two Vedanta traditions that are temporally one after the other. It is, after all, a conversation. Thus, it is an interpretation to say that it necessarily means “rooted in” or “based in.” Please quote more from his work if you think you can further contextualize what she’s saying.
Rachel Dwyer’s text is, however, focused on the Swaminarayan Sampradaya. As you say, she does hold the point of view that “vishistadvaita forms the theological and philosophical basis of the Swamiyaranam sect, there are several significant differences.” Which supports your stance. But, importantly, first, she is not citing any other scholars in making that claim, which makes amply clear that she does not base her assertion on a scholarly consensus. As you have been saying, we are in this article trying to convey a scholarly consensus. A single source, which makes its claim without citing any other academic sources, does not constitute that. Her work seems to fall prey to what Paramtatvadas’s work cautions against when he says, “a more careful and thorough study [of the Swaminarayan system] would reveal that even closely related Hindu systems [like Ramanuja’s Viśiṣṭādvaita] can differ in some fundamental ways, not just in the details.” She seems to be thus drawing on similarities between Ramanuja’s philosophy and Swaminarayan’s to ground the claim that it forms the basis of the latter. Which is unsupported by all of the scholarship expressly focusing on the relationship between Ramanuja’s and Swaminarayan’s philosophy. It is imperative that one understands that scholars write works focusing on specific questions. If their work is not focused on theology, philosophy, and the like--which Dwyer’s isn’t--it ought not be cited in a discussion that focused on a detailed point about on Swaminarayan’s philosophy. Indeed Dwyer begins her essay by noting that “The Swaminarayan movement, founded in Gujarat in the nineteenth century, was one of the first Hindu groups to establish close connections between India and the Gujarati diaspora in East Africa.” She thus clues the reader into the idea that her focus is the Gujarati diaspora, and that is the lens through which she is looking at the Swaminarayan Sampradaya. Why choose to draw on her work, and overlook Gadhia (2016), Aksharanand (2016), Trivedi (2016), Brahmbhatt (2016), Paramtattvadas (2017), among others--when her work is not focused on philosophy, and the latter sources are? - Lastly, you end your comment saying “Philosophical foundation, based in, similar to, dependent on - I see no academic consensus that Swaminarayan's theology/philosophy is not rooted in Vishistadvaita” First of all, only one academic source states that Swaminarayan’s philosophy is “based in” Ramanuja’s. Which supports your point. “Similar to” does not mean rooted in, as you know. As I said before, “Dependent on,” too need not mean rooted in or based in. It is thus an interpretation to say that it necessarily means “rooted in” or “based in.” Thus, only one academic source categorically supports your claim. One source, which is not even focused on Swaminarayan’s philosophy, does not form a scholarly consensus about Swaminarayan’s philosophy particularly when so many academic sources that are focused on Swaminarayan’s philosophy are saying the opposite.
I hope you may give this further consideration. I thank you for carefully reading and responding to each of my thoughts and hope you continue to do so. Apollo1203 (talk) 23:06, 24 August 2020 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Apollo1203 (talk • contribs) 22 august 2020 (UTC)
- I read your response carefully after my initial message that I had to read it, and even adjusted my comment if I remember correctly.
- You're disgarding most of the sources, but let's get back to the bottomline: Wikipedia summarizes what WP:RS state; multiple sources state that Vishistadvaita is foundational (the exact formulation is open to WP:CONSENSUS; maybe "dependent on," but we can also use exact quotes, as I did from the beginning), to Swaminayaran's ideas. If other sources state otherwise, those can be added too. But as a thumb of rule, we don't remove WP:RS.
- And let me be clear: I don't argue that Swaminarayan's teachings are exactly the same as Vishistadvaita. But there is a relation is clear; removing almost all statements which make this clear is annoying. The normal way at Wikipedia is to find a formulationwhich does justice to both stances. Regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:05, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
Clarification of Swaminarayan's ethical reform
Overall, the quote inserted "While Sahajanand's ethical reforms have been regarded as a protest against immoral Pushtimarg practices..." is not an accurate description of what Williams is claiming. Williams makes no mention of “influence”, only that practices were adopted (Williams 2018: 30). Further, there is no explicit mention that Sahajanand was ‘positive towards Vallabha’, but only that practices were “affirmed.” Adding “positive towards Vallabha” in the edit is too vague and it also inaccurately represents Williams’s claims. Williams notes further, in the context of the adoption of practices: “These decisions are consistent with his generally positive affirmations of other Vaishnava and Krishnite traditions, even though he criticised various forms of immoral conduct by some religious leaders and groups.” There is no specific mention of the “influence” of Vallabha or others and Williams describes a consistency among Swaminarayan’s tradition/practices and Vaishnava traditions. The edit needlessly highlights “Vallabha,” even as the import of Williams’s claim is more general: “Vaishnava and Krishnite traditions.” In the edit, saying “against practices associated with village and tribal deities,” misrepresents what Williams is saying WP:RSCONTEXT. Williams notes: “That leaves open the interpretation that the primary focus of Swaminarayan’s criticisms were Tantrics and followers of another left-handed Shakti cult, known as Vama-Marga, which was popular at the time, and other disreputable practices associated with village and tribal deities, as François Mallison argues. Those rituals included animal sacrifices, eating meat, drinking intoxicants, and sexual license, all of which were prohibited in Swaminarayan’s teachings.” (30). Williams prefaced the quote “village and tribal deities” with “disreputable practices associated with,” which the original edit doesn’t convey. misrepresenting the quote. WP:RSCONTEXT. The edit I have made is clear and fits in the ‘Practices’ section as it describes ethical reform. Apollo1203 (talk) 20:24, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
- You are referring to this edit, which removed
While Sahajanand's ethical reforms have been regarded as a protest against immoral Pushtimarg practices,[1] Sahajanand was in fact influenced by and positive towards Vallabha and other Vaisna-traditions, and his reforms may have been primarily targeted against Tantrics, and against practices "associated with village and tribal deities."[2]
References
- ^ Williams 2018, p. 29.
- ^ Williams 2018, p. 30.
- This sentence preceded another removed sentence, as mentioned above. This edit removed the remainder of the subsection on the origins of the Swaminarayan sampradaya.
- Altogether, that's quite a lot of properly sourced info, removed with the argument that it was taken out of context. I think that (part of) it could be re-added at the intro of the Beliefs-section. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:52, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Proposal
JJ's proposal
I'd like to propose the follwong addition/ce at the beliefs-section:
Ramanuja's Vishistadvaita has been regarded as foundational for Swaminayaran,[1][2][3] who developed his own distinctive[4][5] theology in relation to Ramanuja's ideas.[note 1] According to Brahmbhatt, "Sahajanand explicitly states that his school of Vedanta is Ramanuja's Vishishtadvaita,"[note 2] while "he also states that his system of devotional praxis is based on the Vallabha tradition."[5] Due to Swaminarayan's initiation into the Uddhav sampradaya, the Vadtal and Ahmedabad-branches trace the authority of their acharyas to Ramanuja's guru parampara.[6] Yet, Brahmbhatt also notes that "Sahajanand Swami indirectly acknowledges that there is a difference between his system and Ramanuja's." Whereas Ramanuja describes three eternal entities, "Sahajanand Swami's unique system describes five."[5] Williams explicitly states that "[t]hey are not Shrivaishnavas."[4] According to Paramtattvadas, the similarities between Vishistadvaita and Swaminarayan's theology lead "those without a complete understanding of the Swaminarayan Hindu tradition to erroneously identify it as a ‘modified’ version of Viśiṣṭādvaita Vedānta."[7] He cautions that one should not conflate the two distinct schools of Vedanta, nor should one then see Swaminarayan’s devotional philosophy as foundationally based in Ramanuja’s.[7]
While Sahajanand's ethical reforms have been regarded as a protest against immoral Pushtimarg practices,[8] Sahajanand affirmed the devotional practices of Vallabha and other Vaisna-traditions, and his reforms may have been primarily targeted against Tantrics, and against practices "associated with village and tribal deities."[9] In fact, Swaminarayan incorporated devotional practices of Vallabhas Pushtimarg,[4][10] to gain acceptance in western India.[10][note 3]
- Notes
- ^ Shistadvaita:
* Williams 2001, p. 35 : "They are not Shrivaishnavas, but they do propagate a theology that developed in relation to the modified nondualism [or viśiṣṭādvaita] of Ramanuja and they follow the devotional path within Vaishnavism."[4]
* Kim 2005 : "The philosophical foundation for Swaminarayan devotionalism is the viśiṣṭādvaita, or qualified non-dualism, of Rāmānuja (1017–1137 ce). Sahajanand Swami expanded Rāmānuja's delineation of three separate and eternal existential entities into five."
* Beckerlegge 2008 : "Swaminarayan theology is largely dependent on Ramanuja's theistic Vedanta and the Vishishtadvaita tradition.
* Dwyer 2018, p. 185 : "While vishistadvaita forms the theological and philosophical basis of the Swamiyaranam sect, there are several significant differences."
* Dalal 2020, p. 403 : "Swaminarayan's philosophy is said to be similar to Vishistadvaita, with some minor differences.
* Brahmbatt 2016 : "Certain portions of Swaminarayan Vedanta commentaries indicate an affinity for Vishishtadvaita’s interpretation of canonical texts; others indicate overlap with Shuddhadvaita School, and yet others are altogether unique interpretations." - ^ See Shikshapatri Shlok 121: "Vishishtadvaita is accepted as the Lord’s philosophy. From the various philosophies - Advaita, Kevaladvaita, Shuddhadvaita, Vishishtadvaita etc. the Lord accepts Ramanuja’s philosophy of Vishishtadvaita (special theory of non-dualism) as accurate."[web 1]
- ^ Shruti Patel (2017): "it is probable that Sahajanand did not possess the means by which to initiate his views and have them or him be seamlessly accepted in western India at the outset of the century. For this reason, first incorporating common and observable aspects of Vaishava culture would have mitigated his appearing unknown, made Sahajanand’s aims seem less drastic, and contributed to advancing his local influence in with an aura of rootedness. By identifying with the widely-recognised Pustimarg in the course of worshipping Krsna the Svaminarayan foundation could be related to an identifiable, solidified ethos. Particularly, assimilation would be achieved more effortlessly with the adoption of select Pustimarg symbols. And yet, this would not require the sacrifice of core ideas or independence."[10]
- References
- ^ Kim 2005.
- ^ Dwyer 2018, p. 185.
- ^ Beckerlegge 2008.
- ^ a b c d Williams 2001, p. 35.
- ^ a b c Brahmbhatt 2016.
- ^ Williams 2018, p. 38.
- ^ a b Paramtattvadas 2017, p. 319.
- ^ Williams 2018, p. 29.
- ^ Williams 2018, p. 30.
- ^ a b c Patel 2017, p. 53.
- Web-sources
"Has been regarded as foundational" is a statement of fact; that these are all WP:RS; and that WP:NPOV requires the presentation of all relevant point of view. Regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 10:26, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
- I think this established some foundational context to the beliefs of the faith and its heavily sourced. Probably good to open that section. I can't say I completely understand the in-depth details of all of it but it makes sense as a simple read of original influence of beliefs. Kbhatt22 (talk) 12:14, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
Skubydoo's proposal
Hello, I’ve been following this conversation and feel that I can bring some clarity here. One thing I’ve noticed is that Apollo1203’s comments have been long, but they are still relevant and clear. I’m afraid in adding clarity this is also going to be quite long, but I think it’s necessary to move this conversation forward. Much of what Apollo1203 has said is unacknowledged or lost in the discussion. As I examine the arguments under the section “Swaminarayan's philosophical foundations” and the “Proposal” that Joshua Jonathan has made, this is what I’m understanding: Joshua Jonathan is highlighting the claim that Ramanuja’s philosophy is foundational to Swaminarayan’s. Apollo1203 is saying that this assertion lacks nuance, and that like all Vedanta traditions, Swaminarayan’s Vedanta philosophy is similar to yet different from all of its predecessors’ philosophies-- not just one.
Joshua’s proposal does not acknowledge, I think, the following point about context that Apollo1203 has made. He says that the entire Vedanta tradition is a dialogical discussion, a conversation, and thus there are important similarities between Swaminarayan’s philosophy and those of Shankara, Ramanuja, Madhva, Vallabha, and Chaitanya. And so highlighting only Ramanuja’s philosophical connection with Swaminarayan’s philosophy is a partial inclusion, because if one decides to include Ramanuja’s connection, then representing all of the scholarship, one would also need to include a comparison between Swaminarayan’s philosophy and all those that preceded it, to maintain uniformity. Regarding this, I think what Apollo says here is important to note:
“If one thinks it prudent to add similarities and differences between Ramanuja and Swaminarayan in this article, then one would also have to do so for all other philosophers, to judiciously represent the scholarship. But doing so in this article, which is focused on the Swaminarayan Sampradaya, would be improper, because such additions are not relevant, on account of the focus of this article. Put otherwise, including similarities between Swaminarayan’s philosophy and all others would change the entire focus of this article, which is supposed to be on the Swaminarayan Sampradaya. I do value your historical concerns about placing Swaminarayan’s philosophy in relation with others, but that seems to be out of place in this article. There is just too much stuff to include, and including only certain info is, as I think you aptly put it, ‘an interpretation.’”
Joshua Jonathan seems to have overlooked the following scholarly consensus that Apollo1203 refers to in highlighting this point:
“Williams (2018), Gadhia (2016), Aksharanand (2016), Trivedi (2016), Brahmbhatt (2016), Paramtattvadas (2017), all of which affirm that they are two philosophies that are conversing with each other, in the larger Vedanta commentarial tradition, and hence similar to and different from each other. Nowhere in there is it asserted that one is rooted in the other. And moreover Gadhia (2016), Aksharanand (2016), Trivedi (2016), and Brahmbhatt (2016), specifically, are sources that expressly deal with the relationship of Swaminarayan’s philosophy with his predecessors’”.
I’m not sure why these sources have not been dealt with in writing this “Proposal.”
Moving forward, I think we have two choices.
- First, as it will involve a lot of space to fully discuss the relationship between Swaminarayan’s philosophy and his predecessors’ philosophies, I think we can create a new Wikipedia article titled “Comparison between Swaminarayan’s philosophy and his Predecessors’ philosophes”--or something of that nature. In there, Apollo1203 and Joshua Jonathancan help to flesh out similarities, differences, and whatever else is relevant between all of the philosophies.
- The second choice is to add another section to “Main article: Akshar-Purushottam Darshan,” which is cited under the Metaphysics section here, and address all of these similarities and differences there.
I think it is unfair to both of your points of view to provide only tangential comments on your points. Instead, we should do justice to the sources presented and take either of these two routes to move forward with this discussion.
As for Joshua Jonathan’s proposal, because the discussion of the specificities of the relationships between all of the philosophies is clearly worth more attention and discussion, there isn’t space to appropriately address it here. I think the following edit is most appropriate:
Just like in all Vedanta philosophies, there are important similarities and differences between Swaminarayan’s philosophy and those anterior to it, such as the philosophies of Ramanuja, Shankara, Madhva, Vallabha, and Chaitanya.[1]
References
- ^
- Trivedi, Yogi (2016). “Introduction to Theology and Literature”. In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press., p. 134 – “Ramanuja (eleventh–twelfth centuries), Madhva (thirteenth century), Vallabha, and those in Chaitanya’s tradition (both fifteenth–sixteenth centuries), to mention four of the most prominent. It is within the Vedantic tradition, particularly as expressed in the thinking of these four bhakti ācāryas (acharyas), that Swaminarayan’s doctrine emerged. Swaminarayan was keen to engage with this Vedanta commentarial tradition by presenting his own theological system.”
- Brahmbhatt, Arun (2016). "The Swaminarayan commentarial tradition". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press., p. 152 - “Swaminarayan commentaries, though each playing a different role through unique commentarial agendas, are all similar in their commitment to intertextually referencing Ramanuja’s authoritative commentary. They all contend with the spectre of Ramanuja, be it accepting his claims, adjusting them, or refuting them outright— either with recourse to other schools of Vedanta or not”.
- Ramanuja - Williams, Raymond Brady (2018). An introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism (Third ed.). Cambridge, United Kingdom: Cambridge University Press, p. 91
- Shankara & Ramanuja - Gadhia, Smit (2016). "Akshara and its four forms in Swaminarayan's doctrine". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press, p. 168
- Chaitanya - Gadhia, Smit (2016). "Akshara and its four forms in Swaminarayan's doctrine". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press, p. 169
- Madhva - Gadhia, Smit (2016). "Akshara and its four forms in Swaminarayan's doctrine". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press, p. 161
- Shankara - Bhadreshdas, Sadhu; Aksharananddas, Sadhu (1 April 2016), "Swaminarayan's Brahmajnana as Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsanam", Swaminarayan Hinduism, Oxford University Press, p. 179
- Vallabha - Bhadreshdas, Sadhu; Aksharananddas, Sadhu (1 April 2016), "Swaminarayan's Brahmajnana as Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsanam", Swaminarayan Hinduism, Oxford University Press, p. 186.
This can be added in right before the following that is already in the article, in the metaphysics section, which can be edited to convey what both Apollo and Joshua are wanting to highlight, at the beginning. I have inserted in the middle a bolded addition that combines both of the views regarding Ramanuja, with the relevant sources cited:
While his preference for Ramunaja’s theology is stated in the sacred text, the Shikshapatri (Śikṣāpatrī)—a notion which scholars interpret differently, with some affirming such a basis in Ramanuja’s theology[note 1] and others rejecting it[note 2] —Swaminarayan actually teaches a significantly different system of metaphysics in the Vachanamrut. In Ramunaja’s system, there are three entities: Parabrahman, maya (māyā), and jiva (jīva).[1]: 141–2 [2]: 157–60 [3]: 183–84 [4] : 211 Throughout the Vachanamrut, Swaminarayan identifies five eternal and distinct entities: Parabrahman, Aksharbrahman (Akṣarabrahman, also Akshara, Akṣara, or Brahman), maya, ishwar (īśvara), and jiva.[5]: 319 [6]: 244 [7] [8]: 69–71 [9]
- Notes
- ^ See:
* Dwyer 2018, p. 185: "While vishistadvaita forms the theological and philosophical basis of the Swamiyaranam sect, there are several significant differences."
* Kim 2005: "The philosophical foundation for Swaminarayan devotionalism is the viśiṣṭādvaita, or qualified non-dualism, of Rāmānuja (1017–1137 ce). Sahajanand Swami expanded Rāmānuja's delineation of three separate and eternal existential entities into five." - ^ See:
* Paramtattvadas, Sadhu (17 August 2017). An introduction to Swaminarayan Hindu theology. Cambridge, United Kingdom: Cambridge University Press, p. 319: “those without a complete understanding of the Swaminarayan Hindu tradition to erroneously identify it as a ‘modified’ version of Viśistādvaita Vedānta. A more careful and thorough study would reveal that even closely related Hindu systems can differ in some fundamental ways, not just in the details.”
* Bhadreshdas, Sadhu; Aksharananddas, Sadhu (1 April 2016), "Swaminarayan's Brahmajnana as Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsanam", Swaminarayan Hinduism, Oxford University Press, p. 186: “one sees [in Swaminarayan’s theology] a...doctrine that is metaphysically distinct from those presented...by Shankara, Ramanuja, and Vallabha”
- References
- ^ Brahmbhatt, Arun (2016). "The Swaminarayan commentarial tradition". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914
- ^ Gadhia, Smit (2016). "Akshara and its four forms in Swaminarayan's doctrine". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914
- ^ Bhadreshdas, Sadhu; Aksharananddas, Sadhu (1 April 2016), "Swaminarayan's Brahmajnana as Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsanam", Swaminarayan Hinduism, Oxford University Press, pp. 172–190, doi:10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199463749.003.0011, ISBN 978-0-19-946374-9
- ^ Trivedi, Yogi (2016). "Multivalent Krishna-bhakti in Premanand's Poetry". In Williams, Raymond Brady (ed.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914
- ^ Kim, Hanna (2002). Being Swaminarayan: the ontology and significance of belief in the construction of a Gujarati diaspora. UMI Dissertation Services. OCLC 452027310
- ^ Kim, Hanna (2014). "Svāminārāyaṇa: Bhaktiyoga and the Akṣarabrahman Guru". In Singleton, Mark; Goldberg, Ellen (eds.). Gurus of modern yoga. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-993871-1. OCLC 861692270
- ^ Brahmbhatt, Arun. "BAPS Swaminarayan community: Hinduism". Global religious movements across borders: sacred service. Burlington. ISBN 1-4094-5689-7. OCLC 872618204
- ^ Paramtattvadas, Swami (2017). An introduction to Swaminarayan Hindu theology. Cambridge, United Kingdom: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-107-15867-2. OCLC 964861190
- ^ See Gadhada I.7, Gadhada I.39, Gadhada I.42, Gadhada III.10 Sahajānanda, Swami (2015). The Vachanāmrut: spiritual discourses of Bhagwān Swāminārāyan. (3rd ed.) Ahmedabad: Bochasanvasi Shri Aksharpurushottama Sanstha ISBN 978-81-7526-431-1.
If this change is made, which I believe is fair to both of your views, I think it would then be repetitive to include in the belief’s section the following point, because it is fully represented at the beginning of the metaphysics section. I’m not sure who I’m talking with here, as I didn’t go and find who made this edit, but I am for for removing the following:
According to Brahmbhatt, "Sahajanand explicitly states that his school of Vedanta is Ramanuja's Vishishtadvaita," while "he also states that his system of devotional praxis is based on the Vallabha tradition."[1] Yet, Brahmbhatt also notes that "Sahajanand Swami indirectly acknowledges that there is a difference between his system and Ramanuja's." Whereas Ramanuja describes three eternal entities, "Sahajanand Swami's unique system describes five."[2]
References
- ^ Brahmbhatt, Arun (2016). "The Swaminarayan commentarial tradition". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press.
- ^ Brahmbhatt, Arun (2016). "The Swaminarayan commentarial tradition". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press.
Take care, Skubydoo (talk) 01:14, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
JJ's response
Thank you for your response and proposals. It's not an overall improvement, though, for several reasons:
- You wrote:
Much of what Apollo1203 has said is unacknowledged or lost in the discussion [...] Joshua Jonathan is highlighting the claim that Ramanuja’s philosophy is foundational to Swaminarayan’s. Apollo1203 is saying that this assertion lacks nuance, and that like all Vedanta traditions, Swaminarayan’s Vedanta philosophy is similar to yet different from all of its predecessors’ philosophies-- not just one.
- I first stated that Swaminarayan's philosophy is rooted in Ramanauja's Vishistadvaita. After considering Apollo's 1203 objections, I changed this into "Ramanuja's Vishistadvaita has been regarded as foundational for Swaminayaran," and added the elucidations from Brahmbhatt, Williams, and Paramtattvadas. So, stating that "Much of what Apollo1203 has said is unacknowledged or lost in the discussion" is incorrect.
- Apollo1203 argued that (emphasis mine)
Williams makes amply clear that, when he is talking about Swaminarayan’s philosophy, he is referring to this process of a novel and categorically distinct philosophical tradition developing in relation to ones that preceded it.
- Trivedi Yogi (2016) p.134/135 first gives a short summary of the Vedanta-tradition, starting with Shankara's Advaita Vedanta, stating that many Vedantin theologians followed after him, and then summing-up the most prominent Vaishna Vedantins, in whose tradition "Swaminarayan's doctrine emerged." Trivedi Yogi then states:
Swaminayaran was keen to engage with this Vedanta commentarial tradition by presenting his own theological system.
- Smit Gadhia (2016) treats Swaminayaran's understanding of akshara. She explains that Swaminayaran views akshara as personal as "an ideal devotee in the divine abode of Parabrahman," and as impersonal. She then states:
This four-part theological reading of akshara builds on the interpretations provided by previous bhakti theologians and at once also provides an innovative maens to understanding akshara in relation to the guru leading the community [...] it is this understanding of akshara, as manifest in human form on earth - as guru - which resulted in an important schism within the Swaminayaran Sampradaya
- Sadhu Bhadreshdas & Sadhu Aksharananddas (2016), p.186, state:
one sees [in Swaminarayan’s theology] a [...] doctrine that is metaphysically distinct from those presented [...] by Shankara, Ramanuja, and Vallabha.
- Taking these considerations and quotes in account, emphasizing "in relation to," as Apollo1203 proposed, a better version of your addition would be (references and note below):
Swaminayaran's philosophy emerged within the Vedanta tradition, particularly the Vaishnava tradition as articulated by Ramanuja, Madhva, Vallabha, and Chaitanya’s tradition.[1][2] Swaminayaran engaged with this Vedanta commentarial tradition by presenting his own theological system,[3][4] which had both similarities and differences with those anterior to it.[5][6][7][note 1]
- It's the relation with Shistadvaita which is specificially mentioned and/or elucidated by a considerable number of authors. While your proposal gives due weight to the relation with the preceding Vaishna Vedanta-tradition, it removed a lot of references and sourced info on this specific relation with Shistadvaita. You even quoted Brahmbhatt in your first proposal, who exclusively refers to Ramanuja:
Brahmbhatt, Arun (2016), p.152: "Swaminarayan commentaries, though each playing a different role through unique commentarial agendas, are all similar in their commitment to intertextually referencing Ramanuja’s authoritative commentary. They all contend with the spectre of Ramanuja, be it accepting his claims, adjusting them, or refuting them outright— either with recourse to other schools of Vedanta or not."
- Your next reference, Williams (2018) p.91 says:
Ramanuja allowed for some distinction within the ultimate reality, and Sahajanand elaborated on this duality
- That does not sound as 'developing in relation to', but as 'developing from'. Thus, a considerable number of authors, including those presented by you, point specifically to Ramanuja. Removing this sourced info is not acceptable; it obscures the specific relation with Ramanuja, explicitly mentioned by a number of authors; and elucidated by a number of other authors.
- You wrote:
While his preference for Ramunaja’s theology is stated in the sacred text, the Shikshapatri (Śikṣāpatrī)—a notion which scholars interpret differently
- Where did those authors state that they are interpreting these statements by Swaminarayan? Nowhere, except for Brahmbhatt. You're interpreting the sources.
- I don't see why Rhambhatt's quote should be removed; he makes clear that Swaminayaran himself referred to Ramanuja and Vallabha; quite essential info. The statement at the Swaminarayan Sampradaya#Metaphysics-section is unsourced and less specific:
While his preference for Ramunaja’s theology is stated in the sacred text, the Shikshapatri (Śikṣāpatrī), Swaminarayan actually teaches a significantly different system of metaphysics in the Vachanamrut.
- We can remove that sentence from the metaphysics-section.
- You proposed to remove the following:
Whereas Ramanuja describes three eternal entities, "Sahajanand Swami's unique system describes five."
- Yet, it's still in your proposal, with a lot more sources and clarification. Additional sources for Swaminarayan's philosophy/theology are welcome, of course, but this already described elsewhere. It also highlights the fact that you removed a lot of sourced info.
- Moving the part on Pushtimarg-practices to the practices-section is fine with me.
- I'll remove "Due to Swaminarayan's initiation into the Uddhav sampradaya, the Vadtal and Ahmedabad-branches trace the authority of their acharyas to Ramanuja's guru parampara. [Williams (2018) p.38]" from my proposal; it's already in the article.
So, taking your proposal in consideration, we can merge both to this:
Swaminayaran's philosophy emerged within the Vedanta tradition, particularly the Vaishnava tradition as articulated by Ramanuja, Madhva, Vallabha, and Chaitanya’s tradition.[1][2] Swaminayaran engaged with this Vedanta commentarial tradition by presenting his own theological system,[3][4] which had both similarities and differences with those anterior to it.[5][6][7][note 1] Especially Ramanuja's Vishistadvaita has been regarded as foundational for Swaminayaran,[11][12][13] who developed his own distinctive[14][15] theology most notably in relation to Ramanuja's ideas.[note 2] According to Brahmbhatt, "Sahajanand explicitly states that his school of Vedanta is Ramanuja's Vishishtadvaita,"[note 3] while "he also states that his system of devotional praxis is based on the Vallabha tradition."[15] Yet, Brahmbhatt also notes that "Sahajanand Swami indirectly acknowledges that there is a difference between his system and Ramanuja's." Whereas Ramanuja describes three eternal entities, "Sahajanand Swami's unique system describes five."[15][note 4] While Williams explicitly notes that "[t]hey are not Shrivaishnavas,"[14] Paramtattvadas states that the similarities between Vishistadvaita and Swaminarayan's theology lead "those without a complete understanding of the Swaminarayan Hindu tradition to erroneously identify it as a ‘modified’ version of Viśiṣṭādvaita Vedānta."[25] He cautions that one should not conflate the two distinct schools of Vedanta, nor should one then see Swaminarayan’s devotional philosophy as foundationally based in Ramanuja’s.[25]
- Notes
- ^ See:
- Trivedi, Yogi (2016), p. 134: "...there were many who followed [after Shankara]: Ramanuja (eleventh–twelfth centuries), Madhva (thirteenth century), Vallabha, and those in Chaitanya’s tradition (both fifteenth–sixteenth centuries), to mention four of the most prominent. It is within the Vedantic tradition, particularly as expressed in the thinking of these four bhakti ācāryas (acharyas), that Swaminarayan’s doctrine emerged. Swaminarayan was keen to engage with this Vedanta commentarial tradition by presenting his own theological system."[8]
- Smit Gadia (2016): "This four-part theological reading of akshara builds on the interpretations provided by previous bhakti theologians and at once also provides an innovative maens to understanding akshara in relation to the guru leading the community [...] it is this understanding of akshara, as manifest in human form on earth - as guru - which resulted in an important schism within the Swaminayaran Sampradaya."[9] Specifically on Shankara & Ramanuja (p.168), Chaitanya (169), Madhva (p.161).
- Sadhu Bhadreshdas & Sadhu Aksharananddas (2016), p.186: "one sees [in Swaminarayan’s theology] a [...] doctrine that is metaphysically distinct from those presented [...] by Shankara, Ramanuja, and Vallabha."[10] Specifically on Shankara (p.179) and Vallabha (p.186).
- ^ Shistadvaita:
* Williams 2001, p. 35 : "They are not Shrivaishnavas, but they do propagate a theology that developed in relation to the modified nondualism [or viśiṣṭādvaita] of Ramanuja and they follow the devotional path within Vaishnavism."[14]
* Williams (2018) p.91: "Ramanuja allowed for some distinction within the ultimate reality, and Sahajanand elaborated on this duality."
* Kim 2005 : "The philosophical foundation for Swaminarayan devotionalism is the viśiṣṭādvaita, or qualified non-dualism, of Rāmānuja (1017–1137 ce). Sahajanand Swami expanded Rāmānuja's delineation of three separate and eternal existential entities into five."
* Brahmbatt 2016 : "Certain portions of Swaminarayan Vedanta commentaries indicate an affinity for Vishishtadvaita’s interpretation of canonical texts; others indicate overlap with Shuddhadvaita School, and yet others are altogether unique interpretations."
* Brahmbhatt (2016), p.152: "Swaminarayan commentaries, though each playing a different role through unique commentarial agendas, are all similar in their commitment to intertextually referencing Ramanuja’s authoritative commentary. They all contend with the spectre of Ramanuja, be it accepting his claims, adjusting them, or refuting them outright— either with recourse to other schools of Vedanta or not."
* Beckerlegge 2008 : "Swaminarayan theology is largely dependent on Ramanuja's theistic Vedanta and the Vishishtadvaita tradition.
* Dwyer 2018, p. 185 : "While vishistadvaita forms the theological and philosophical basis of the Swamiyaranam sect, there are several significant differences."
* Dalal 2020, p. 403 : "Swaminarayan's philosophy is said to be similar to Vishistadvaita, with some minor differences. - ^ See Shikshapatri Shlok 121: "Vishishtadvaita is accepted as the Lord’s philosophy. From the various philosophies - Advaita, Kevaladvaita, Shuddhadvaita, Vishishtadvaita etc. the Lord accepts Ramanuja’s philosophy of Vishishtadvaita (special theory of non-dualism) as accurate."[web 1]
- ^ [Optional note] In Ramunaja’s system, there are three entities: Parabrahman, maya (māyā), and jiva (jīva).[16]: 141–2 [17]: 157–60 [18]: 183–84 [19] : 211 Throughout the Vachanamrut, Swaminarayan identifies five eternal and distinct entities: Parabrahman, Aksharbrahman (Akṣarabrahman, also Akshara, Akṣara, or Brahman), maya, ishwar (īśvara), and jiva.[20]: 319 [21]: 244 [22] [23]: 69–71 [24]
- References
- ^ Trivedi Yogi (2016), p.134
- ^ Gadhia, Smit (2016)
- ^ Trivedi Yogi (2016), p.135
- ^ Gadhia, Smit (2016)
- ^ Trivedi Yogi (2016), p.134
- ^ Gadhia, Smit (2016)
- ^ Sadhu Bhadreshdas & Sadhu Aksharananddas (2016), p.186
- ^ Trivedi, Yogi (2016). “Introduction to Theology and Literature”. In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press., p. 134
- ^ Gadhia, Smit (2016). "Akshara and its four forms in Swaminarayan's doctrine". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press
- ^ Bhadreshdas, Sadhu; Aksharananddas, Sadhu (1 April 2016), "Swaminarayan's Brahmajnana as Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsanam", Swaminarayan Hinduism, Oxford University Press
- ^ Kim 2005.
- ^ Dwyer 2018, p. 185.
- ^ Beckerlegge 2008.
- ^ a b c Williams 2001, p. 35.
- ^ a b c Brahmbhatt 2016.
- ^ Brahmbhatt, Arun (2016). "The Swaminarayan commentarial tradition". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914
- ^ Gadhia, Smit (2016). "Akshara and its four forms in Swaminarayan's doctrine". In Williams, Raymond Brady; Trivedi, Yogi (eds.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914
- ^ Bhadreshdas, Sadhu; Aksharananddas, Sadhu (1 April 2016), "Swaminarayan's Brahmajnana as Aksarabrahma-Parabrahma-Darsanam", Swaminarayan Hinduism, Oxford University Press, pp. 172–190, doi:10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199463749.003.0011, ISBN 978-0-19-946374-9
- ^ Trivedi, Yogi (2016). "Multivalent Krishna-bhakti in Premanand's Poetry". In Williams, Raymond Brady (ed.). Swaminarayan Hinduism: tradition, adaptation and identity (1st ed.). New Delhi, India: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908657-3. OCLC 948338914
- ^ Kim, Hanna (2002). Being Swaminarayan: the ontology and significance of belief in the construction of a Gujarati diaspora. UMI Dissertation Services. OCLC 452027310
- ^ Kim, Hanna (2014). "Svāminārāyaṇa: Bhaktiyoga and the Akṣarabrahman Guru". In Singleton, Mark; Goldberg, Ellen (eds.). Gurus of modern yoga. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-993871-1. OCLC 861692270
- ^ Brahmbhatt, Arun. "BAPS Swaminarayan community: Hinduism". Global religious movements across borders: sacred service. Burlington. ISBN 1-4094-5689-7. OCLC 872618204
- ^ Paramtattvadas, Swami (2017). An introduction to Swaminarayan Hindu theology. Cambridge, United Kingdom: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-107-15867-2. OCLC 964861190
- ^ See Gadhada I.7, Gadhada I.39, Gadhada I.42, Gadhada III.10 Sahajānanda, Swami (2015). The Vachanāmrut: spiritual discourses of Bhagwān Swāminārāyan. (3rd ed.) Ahmedabad: Bochasanvasi Shri Aksharpurushottama Sanstha ISBN 978-81-7526-431-1.
- ^ a b Paramtattvadas 2017, p. 319.
- Web-sources
NB: instead of elaborating on the difference between having three or five eternal elements, which is quite esoteric and trivial for outsiders, it's more interesting and relevant to elaborate on the belief in God/Purushottam manifesting as Swaminayaran and the akshar-gurus. It's a crucial point in the consequences of the different interpretations put forward by 'the old school' and BAPS (Williams (2001) p.84-86). And, what that manifestation means in practice/daily life/personal experience (see Wiiliams (2001) p.87; that's something readers can relate to). Regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:27, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
Modes of succession paraphrasing
This edit is a series of quotes that can be trimmed considerably or paraphrased succinctly WP:QUOTEFARM, WP:TERSE. Finally, the last sentence which quotes from Williams repeats in import what the preceding sentence says, further showing this is poorly strung together. The edit I have made is more suitable for the paragraph that introduces the major branches. Actionjackson09 (talk) 01:58, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
- Could you provide diffs for the edits you're refering to? Thanks, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:44, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
- You probably refer to this edit, which replaced
According to the Vadtal branche, "Gopalanand Swami was the chief ascetic disciple of Sajahanand," and "the acharyas have the sole authority to initiate sadhus and to install images in the temples."[1] According to the BAPS, Gunatitanand Swami was appointed successor of Sajahanand, and "the chief ascetics had been given the authority to perform the primary rituals of the group, including the initiation of sadhus," and "this authority had not been revoked when the acharyas were appointed."[2] They furthermore argue that those who life a strictly virtuous life are the ones worthy of inheritence. According to Williams, "[t]he emphasis is on the spiritual lineage rather than the hereditary lineage, and the claim is that the one who observes the rules should be the acharya."[3]
- with
The Laxminarayan Dev and Narnarayan Dev Gadis assert that the sole authority to ordain swamis and install sacred images rests with the acharyas.[1] However, BAPS believes that Gunatitanand Swami was appointed as successor of Swaminarayan. Thus, important rituals of the sampradaya, such as the ordaining of swamis, and the installation of sacred images in the mandirs can be performed by the guru, as authority is dictated by spiritual virtues rather than a hereditary lineage.[2]
References
- ^ a b Williams 2001, p. 59.
- ^ a b Williams 2001, p. 59-60.
- ^ Williams 2001, p. 60.
- The paraphrases omit several points:
- The idea of a 'chief ascetic disciple' was not exclusive to the BAPS:
According to the Vadtal branche, "Gopalanand Swami was the chief ascetic disciple of Sajahanand,"
. This adds a nuance to the claims of the BAPS. - The word "thus" starts a sentence which interprets and misrepresents Williams:
- Williams speaks of authority given to the "chief ascetics" (plural) which was not revoked by the installation of the acharyas; he does not speak of "the guru" (singular) who can perform important rituals;
- The phrase "not revoked" implies an acknowledgement of the authority of the acharyas, and sets a 'backdoor-argument' for the alleged rights of the chief ascetics, not a direct and univocal confirmation by Swaminarayan of the rights of the chief ascetics, let alone the appointment of a succeeding guru;
- The "strictly virtuous life" is mentioned separately by Williams, not as part of an argument concerning the not-mentioned guru;
- Williams makes clear, with the concluding quote, that the BAPS created it's own justification for it's claim of a spiritual inheritance.
- The idea of a 'chief ascetic disciple' was not exclusive to the BAPS:
- Direct quotes should be used when info can be controversial, misinterpreted, or misrepresented, as is the case here. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:25, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
- Gopalanand has been removed before diff; I can't help but sensing a violation of WP:NPOV here. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:34, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- To add some further context. The Shikshapatri, which seems to be the bible equivalent in this religion, seems to outline the succession and existence of the acharya as well.
- https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_New_Face_of_Hinduism/AHI7AAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=shikshapatri+acharya&pg=PA29&printsec=frontcover
- https://www.google.com/books/edition/Shikshapatri_in_English/qbbeDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=shikshapatri+acharya&pg=PT44&printsec=frontcover
- During Swaminarayans existence, he established the two Gadi branches and most importantly a defined succession plan for them. I dont think a single piece of non-secretarian evidence has been presented that suggests any established succession plan from Swainarayan for the authority he assigned to Gunatitand and Gopalanand. As outlined in your quote and point, the keyword I see is "retroactively" for how other branches over the faiths history have defined their existence. I think the current page selectively navigates around this to push the narrative from one branch. Just my takeaway. Thanks Kbhatt22 (talk) 22:18, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
- @Joshua Jonathan:Regarding the edit I made months ago 1, I too sensed an NPOV violation. I removed these two sentences,
Gopalanand Swami was considered the chief disciple by Vadtal. [source: Williams 2001] He was very learned in Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga, and after the death of Swaminarayan, the responsibility of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya and the acharyas were left in the hands of Gopalanand Swami. Swaminarayan held Gopalanand Swami in very high regard. (Source: [Williams 2001, p.53]
- The first sentence caught my eye because no page number was included in the citation. I then verified the next sentence. When you read all the sentences together, it’s clearly original research. The Swaminarayan Gadi, not the Vadtal diocese, regards Gopalanand to be Swaminarayan’s successor.
“In an explicit rejection of the claims of the householder acharyas to be the legitimate successors of Swaminarayan, followers in this sect claim that Swaminarayan appointed an ascetic, Gopalanand Swami, to be his successor. The spiritual leadership is thought to be in the hands of the ascetic who is the successor to Gopalanand.” (Williams 2001, 52-3)
- Look at page 53, and you will find no mention of ashtanga yoga on this page, so it fails verification.
- Look again, and you can see that the only material I left is that which all the groups can agree upon. Nowhere did I leave any details to suggest any one ascetic was the true successor. Hence, the accusations of violating NPOV made by you and @Kbhatt22: are not in good faith (WP:AOBF) and unwarranted. Let’s stick to the content and policies (WP:AGF). Moksha88 (talk) 11:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
- I did not accuse anyone specifically in this discussion or make any accusations against anyone. I am simply stating there is a bizarre cadence of resistance against anything that isn't promoting one branch. I find it very odd. I am sorry you feel that is directed at you, because it wasn't. 88% of images originate from one branch, the only sectarian sources used or allowed are from one branch, and multiple other things on this page seem to be from the perspective of one branch and it more then likely was like that before any of us got here, but that doesn't mean we can't fix it. Kbhatt22 (talk) 12:06, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
- Also, I don't wish to engage in any form of fighting. I am simply making an observation and I am not the only one to have that sentiment. The IP that has now been banned did surface this comment of yours from over a decade ago when he/she did make a very direct accusation against you: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Swaminarayan&diff=prev&oldid=93261344. It is very important to disclose any bias should it exist. You did label yourself a "representative" of one of the two branches in discussion. If you are a part of the faith, that is fine I think but it also could imply some bias. You can see on my talk page that the user that is now blocked asked me to pursue this and out of good faith, I refused too do so and guided him to the avenues should he choose to do so. I have no interest in targeting anyone for any reason. So again, sorry you feel that way. Kbhatt22 (talk) 12:13, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
- @Joshua Jonathan:Regarding the edit I made months ago 1, I too sensed an NPOV violation. I removed these two sentences,
- During Swaminarayans existence, he established the two Gadi branches and most importantly a defined succession plan for them. I dont think a single piece of non-secretarian evidence has been presented that suggests any established succession plan from Swainarayan for the authority he assigned to Gunatitand and Gopalanand. As outlined in your quote and point, the keyword I see is "retroactively" for how other branches over the faiths history have defined their existence. I think the current page selectively navigates around this to push the narrative from one branch. Just my takeaway. Thanks Kbhatt22 (talk) 22:18, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
@Moksha88: thank you for your reply. The second line of the text you removed was indeed a violation of WP:NPOV. Note, though, that I cited Williams (2001) p.59, writing
According to the Vadtal branche, "Gopalanand Swami was the chief ascetic disciple of Sajahanand,"
not that
the Vadtal diocese, regards Gopalanand to be Swaminarayan’s successor
You removed almost the exact sentence as I wrote,
Gopalanand Swami was considered the chief disciple by Vadtal.
This text is a correct presentation of Williams (2001). My text could be appended with another quote, from p.53:
According to the Swaminarayan Gadi, "Swaminarayan appointed [...] Gopalanand Swami to be his successor. The spiritual leadership is thought to be in the hands of the ascetic who is the successor to Golapanand."
That would do justice to these three different branches, in accordance with WP:NPOV; to only mention Gopalanand Swami, when there were several main disciples, and various views on their alleged successorship. violates WP:NPOV. It's clear that the different branches have different but overlapping (and, for outsiders, somewhat confusing) narratives on their origins and spiritual leadership. Exact quotes, trying to present all the different points of view, are then better than paraphrasing quotes, I think.
Note also this piece of info from Williams (2001), p.98:
Thus, in the temples associated with the Akshar Purushottam Sanstha, the image of Swaminarayan is flanked on the right by the image of Gunatitanand. Gopalanand Swami is often, but not always, present on the left side to represent all aspirants.
Clearly, Gopalanand Swami was an important person in the days of Swaminayaran; the views and claims of Vadtal and Swaminarayan Gadi did not come out of nowhere. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:36, 25 August 2020 (UTC) NB: This is WP:QUOTEFARM. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:38, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
Removing redundant verbiage
I noticed that in several areas of the article, the Swaminarayan Mantra explanation is basically being repeated, and therefore decreasing the value of the article. The additions are confusing and redundant as the same information is being repeated 3 times. The “original” structure before the edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Swaminarayan_Sampradaya&diff=972184650&oldid=972183251) was much more readable. The edit I have made not only makes the article more clear, but also serves as the best place where the information about the Swaminarayan Mantra should be located - as it is critical to the history of the sampradaya, as its very name and the founder’s name originates from the mantra. Actionjackson09 (talk) 02:01, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Major branches and mode of succession
I noticed a restructure of the major branches of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya and believe it is not accurately representing the two modes of succession established by Swaminarayan. I. Patel (2018) states that Swaminarayan has created an administrative mode (found in the Lekh) and a spiritual mode of succession (found in the Vachanamrut). The current structure falsely suggests that there was only a single mode of succession, misleading the reader. Any ‘branch’ of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya has adopted one of the modes (I. Patel 2018, 2; Mamtora, 2018; Warrier 2012; A. Patel 2018) previously mentioned which my edit conveys. Also, my edit will remove the Lekh redundancy in the article. Keeping the information centralized rather than repetitive will allow for greater flow and readability of the article. Moreover, I think it is more important for the readers to have branches clearly identified, as there is often confusion about them, rather than clumping it into the history section - in which technically the entire article could be placed -- but that would not serve to elucidate the topic, only confuse it.Actionjackson09 (talk) 02:55, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Mode of succession
The statement of the two modes of succession is only sourced to Paramtattvadas, a BAPS-member describing BAPS-theology, that is, beliefs.
- I. Patel states:
He introduced Gunatitanand Swami as his eternal, ideal devotee, from whom his followers should seek spiritual guidance. This started a lineage of gurus.
- This clearly the BAPS pov, which is not confirmed as such by other sources, which state that this was a novel concept; see below.
- Mamtora (2012) is a PhD-thesis; see WP:RS.
- Warrier (2012) does not mention two modes of succession, but two different organisations, ISSO and BAPS.
- Aart Patel (2018) also doesn't mention 'two modes of succession', but only explains, at page 58, that "Shastriji Maharaj argued that Swaminarayan is Purna Purushottam," deviating from the ideas prevalent at that time.
Other sources:
- Williams (2001) p.34 speaks of two modes of leadership. P.44 says that "Swaminarayan left three centers of power." P.55 says that members of the BAPS believe that Swaminarayan appointed Gunatitanand as his successor, and do not regard this to be an innovation.
- Kim (2005) does not state that Swaminayaran 'established two modes of succession'. She states:
BAPS followers do not follow the ācāryas and temples of the original gāddīs but have constructed temples to reflect their interpretation of Swaminarayan viśiṣṭādvaita. Also, a lineage of akṣaragurus, or living gurus, has been retroactively traced back to Gunatitanand Swami, a sādhu who lived during Sahajanand Swami's lifetime.
- According to Melton (2020), the acharyas initiated the sadhus, stating that "Swaminarayan thus left the movement with a bifurcated authority system." According to Melton, the idea that Swaminarayan had appointed Gunatitanand as his spiritual successor, instead of the two acharyas, was a new and "most radical idea."
So, for what I've understood so far, Swaminarayan created two modes of authority, not two modes of succession; the idea (belief, interpretation) of two modes of succession is typical for the BAPS. Nothing new, by the way; see John McRae, Seeing Through Zen, on the importance of lineages in religious traditions. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 10:38, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
NB: where exactly does Paramtattvadas (2017) p.132-156 state that 'Swaminarayan established two modes of succession'? Those pages are about the nature of Swaminarayan as Parashottam, not about succession, as far as I can see. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:51, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
- I am not replying to everything that User:Joshua Jonathan states his mode of succession post above, but only to this specific note that he makes: “NB: where exactly does Paramtattvadas (2017) p.132-156 state that 'Swaminarayan established two modes of succession'? Those pages are about the nature of Swaminarayan as Parashottam, not about succession, as far as I can see.”
- More broadly, I’m replying to the couple of sentences in the text of the current article in which the tag has been placed next to the reference.
“According to Paramtattvadas, Swaminarayan established two modes of succession: a hereditary administrative mode through the ‘Lekh’; and a spiritual mode established in the Vachanamrut, in which Swaminarayan conveyed his theological doctrines. According to Paramtattvadas, Swaminarayan described a spiritual mode of succession whose purpose is purely soteriological, reflecting his principle that a form of God who lives “before one’s eyes” is necessary for aspirants to attain moksha (liberation).”
- I looked through the page numbers of the sources cited, and I also agree with Joshua Jonathan that the information presented in the article is not within that source as cited in both places where he has put a failed verification tag. User:Joshua Jonathan, are you suggesting that the text needs to be modified so that it does match what the sources saying (if so, what should be modified as?), or are you suggesting that that the text associated with the incorrect reference simply needs to be removed? Tale.Spin (talk) 03:07, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- It seems to me that that the correct statement would be "two modes of authority." Only Iva Patel (2018) comes close to "two modes of succession," but her statement is at odds with al other statements mentioned above. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:17, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- Hello all, this page sure is quite lively! Regarding the discussion about whether Swaminarayan created two modes of succession or authority, I feel that the term succession is better suited given the context. The dictionary definition of succession states “the order in which or the conditions under which one person after another succeeds to a property, dignity, title, or throne.” [1]. The term succession conveys the transference of authority, which is what is being elucidated in this section.
Melton (2020) notes: “While Swaminarayan lived, he appointed the sadhus (the monks who had taken renunciate vows) to head the various temples, and further, also named the lay temple administrators who, unlike the sadhus, could handle money and interact with female members. The gradual separation of spiritual and temporal authority in the group led to the most important decisions relative to the succession of authority at the time of Swaminarayan’s death” (93).
- Here, Melton highlights the establishment of two modes of succession (spiritual and temporal/administrative) during Swaminarayan’s lifetime. Furthermore, by stating “succession of authority” Melton, suggests there is no operative difference between succession and authority. However, as stated earlier the use of the term succession is better suited here given the context. Melton’s point that Swaminarayan’s division of spiritual and administrative authority led to the bifurcated succession of authority following the death further corroborates the I. Patel (2018) reference which also delineates the administrative and spiritual modes of succession established by Swaminarayan.
I. Patel (2018) states: “He [Swaminarayan] appointed his two nephews, Ayodhyaprasad and Raghuvir, to administer his temple properties. This action later started a hereditary line of succession. He introduced Gunatitanand Swami as his eternal, ideal devotee, from whom his followers should seek spiritual guidance. This started a lineage of gurus. However, different interpretations of authentic successorship have emerged since Swaminarayan’s passing on June 1, 1830, resulting in at least a dozen groups that regard Swaminarayan as God but differ in the specifics of their theology and the religious leadership they accept.”(2)
- The neutrality of I. Patel (2018) has been questioned. As I understand it, I. Patel’s article is published in a peer-reviewed academic journal with no declared sectarian affiliation and therefore is a neutral and reliable source (WP:RS). As for the POV of the article’s content, by explicitly stating that “He [Swaminarayan] introduced Gunatitanand Swami as his eternal, ideal devotee, from whom his followers should seek spiritual guidance. This started a lineage of gurus.” I. Patel presents Swaminarayan’s appointment of Gunatitanand Swami as his spiritual successor as a simple statement of fact. I. Patel does not indicate that this is a belief exclusive to BAPS or any one branch. To presume otherwise would be WP:SYNTHESIS.
- Back to the discussion on the use of succession vs authority, Williams (2001) describes the bifurcation of leadership during Swaminaraya’s time that then influenced the succession of leadership after his death. Willams states: “An important result of this decision, whether or not it was a part of his intent, was the separation of the spiritual leadership of the satsang under the control of the sadhus from the administrative leadership of the chosen householders.” (34). In this context as well, the term succession is better suited as it conveys the transference of leadership/authority since we are discussing leadership after Swamianrayan’s death.
- Regarding the assertion that the Swaminarayan’s appointment of Gunatitanand is an innovation, Williams (2001) notes: “The sadhus of the Vadtal temple came to fear that he would attempt to place images of Gunatitanand Swami in the temple, and they would not accept this innovation. … Members of the Akshar Purushottam Sanstha do not believe that it was an innovation.” (55). The innovation described by Williams is of placing images of Gunatitanad Swami in the Vadtal temple and unrelated to the discussion of Swaminarayan’s appointment of Gunatitanad as his spiritual successor. Based on my readings, Williams and the other cited sources do not delineate a difference between succession and authority and therefore given the context of leadership after Swaminarayan’s death, the phrase “modes of succession” is more appropriate as outlined above. It should be noted that the sources cited indicate that different branches of the sampradaya believe in different modes of succession (administrative/spiritual) and further accord successorship to separate figures. Harshmellow717 (talk) 03:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
- @Harshmellow: you're interpreting the sources. Melton does not
highlights the establishment of two modes of succession (spiritual and temporal/administrative) during Swaminarayan’s lifetime
; Melton mentions the appointment of sadhus and adminstrators by Swaminayaran, the gradual separation of authority appearing thereafter, and the decisions about the succession of authority when he died. Decisions made by his followers, not by Swaminayara, regarding the "conditions" (your dictionary-quote) of succession of authority. Williams speaks of "modes of authority," not "modes of succession." "Modes of authority" does notconveys the transference of leadership/authority [...] after Swamianrayan’s death
. Please stick to the sources. - Patel is the only one who makes this explicit claim regarding Gunatitanand Swami, a claim, which is not backed-up by other sources. On the contrary, Kim (2005) states "a lineage of akṣaragurus, or living gurus, [which] has been retroactively traced back to Gunatitanand Swami." Williams speaks of two modes of authority, not succession, and the BAPS-believe that Gunatitanand was appointed successor. Melton states "Shastri Maharaj would trace an alternative lineage of Swaminarayan succession from Gunatitanand to Pragji Bhakta (1829-1897) to himself." According to Melton, the idea that Swaminarayan had appointed Gunatitanand as his spiritual successor, instead of the two acharyas, was a new and "most radical idea." You cannot pick one source, which coincidentally supports the stance of one branch, and ignore the other sources.
- You're right about Williams (2001) p.55, that "innovation" refers to the placing of images. Yet, Williams also clearly states that Yagnapurushdas and the BAPS believe that Gunatitanand was appointed as successor, not that Swaminarayan did appoint him as successor, even less that Swaminayaran instituted or authorized a spiritual line of succession. And p.85 says that the majority of the sadu's in the Vadtal-branch rejected Yagnapurusda's teachings on Akshar Purushottam as "novel and heretical." Please stick to the sources.
- NB: regarding the Merriam-Webster definitions (plural) of succession (emphais mine):
Definition of succession
1a : the order in which or the conditions under which one person after another succeeds to a property, dignity, title, or throne
b : the right of a person or line to succeed
c : the line having such a right
2a : the act or process of following in order : sequence
b(1) : the act or process of one person's taking the place of another in the enjoyment of or liability for rights or duties or both
(2) : the act or process of a person's becoming beneficially entitled to a property or property interest of a deceased person
c : the continuance of corporate personality
d : unidirectional change in the composition of an ecosystem as the available competing organisms and especially the plants respond to and modify the environment
3a : a number of persons or things that follow each other in sequence
b : a group, type, or series that succeeds or displaces another- Succcession refers to (paraphrased/summarized) 'a number of persons [...] that succeeds or displaces another', and to "the right of a person or line to succeed." It's clear that there is a line of spiritual succession within the BAPS, but that the right of spiritual succession is a claim being made by the BAPS, and regarded as an innovation by most sources. It's understandable that such a tradition developed, but the sources, except for Patel, do not say that Swaminayaran established such a mode of (right of) spiritual succession. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:59, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
- @Harshmellow: you're interpreting the sources. Melton does not
- Props for doing such through and detailed research. I read through everything presented. I see a lot of sources showing a defined process of succession within the Acharya tradition. One acharya selects his successor and they all share the same last name of Pande, which is also Swaminarayan's last name, which shows the bloodline designation. In shikshapatri shloks 133 and 134, Raymond Williams even outlines details of succession/leadership rites for the wives of the acharyas (https://books.google.com/books?id=tPkexi2EhAIC&pg=PA46&lpg=PA46&dq=Ajendraprasad&source=bl&ots=ujm9VhlD7V&sig=ACfU3U29hVbizbA_aaQh9xojlb3mPXgP0g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwio16rK4b3rAhUul3IEHW_GBmsQ6AEwFXoECAcQAQ#v=snippet&q=wives&f=false)
- There is a succession plan established with rights and duties in the acharya tradition. Is there an equally defined plan to succession from Swaminarayan for the authority that was given to Gunatianand? As of right now all the sources presented suggest Swaminarayan gave him authority during that time but succession behind that authority wasn't established until it was retroactively traced over a century later. And Swaminarayan never established succession behind that authority. Maybe someone has a source that shows this but based on everything presented so far from everyone, this is what I am getting out of this. Kbhatt22 (talk) 12:08, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
Structure of the article (history & major branches)
As for the structure of the article, it makes more sense to have the branches-section integrated into the history-section. The history-sections cuts-off after Swaminarayan, and continues with the branches-section. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:20, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
- I disagree with User:Joshua Jonathan and agree with User:Actionjackson09 who rightly seems to suggest that if major branches are placed in history, by the same logic, so should mandir traditions and spiritual traditions as they are all parts of the history. However, I think that would make the article less clear. The way that it is, with history focused on the history of the founder, and then split up into major aspects of mandir traditions, spiritual traditions and major branches conveys the information much more clearly in my opinion. Tale.Spin (talk) 03:08, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- I do not think it would help the article to do what you are suggesting for the following reasons. Let me know what you think.
- First, I agree with Actionjackson09 and Tale.Spin that if branches should be in the history section then following your logic, the entire article would need to be moved to the history section, insofar as everything in the article is a part of history. But, if you go back to the Kim (2005), which you have cited before, she states, “All Swaminarayan sects connect their devotional tradition to the historical person of Sahajanand Swami (1781–1830 ce), who was born near Ayodhya, Uttar Pradesh, in northern India.” Thus beginning the article with a brief history of the historical person of Swaminarayan allows the reader to understand who Swaminarayan was before they understand other things about the Swaminarayan sampradaya, such as its mandirs, scriptures or branches.
- Second, the logical flow of the article would be broken if we included the branches section within the history section, because then, to maintain uniformity, we would also have to remove the history subsection from the mandir tradition section and bring it to the “History” section. We would also have to take the descriptions of some of the scriptures (Shikshapatri, Vachanamrut, etc.) from the “scriptural tradition” section and move it in the history section, because all of these things are equally historically located within the time Swaminarayan was living. But, the point of including them in different sections is to allow the reader to explore each of these sections (e.g., the scriptural tradition, the branches, the mandir tradition, and so on) on their own and holistically. Apollo1203 (talk) 04:40, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- I do not think it would help the article to do what you are suggesting for the following reasons. Let me know what you think.
It makes sense to have a separate scetion on the branches, but it's weird to break-ff the history section at th 1870's, and then continue at another section. Therefor, I've moved the Schisms-subsection upwards to the History-section. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:38, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
- Looking at this conversation, I’d have to agree with users Actionjackson09 and Tale.Spin. Reading this article I feel as if the flow is disrupted with the Schism paragraphs in the Early history section. The Early history section is focused on the specifics of the sampradaya formation and the schisms subsection and the major branches section are logically connected. Placing schisms in Early history adds a break in flow as the sections are not chronologically placed. ThaNDNman224 (talk) 20:33, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
Devotees ownership
Okay, it's clear that this page is owned by a couple of Swaminarayan devotees. I'm taking it off my watchlist; it's not worth the effort. Interesred readers are adviced to research the topic themselves. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:29, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Apparently, I'm not the first one to get exhausted: Talk:Criticism of Swaminarayan sect#The way. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:52, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
- I am afraid that this is the second time that you are assuming bad faith in my edits instead of discussing the content issues, so I thought it is important to remind you of avoiding personal attacks (WP:USTHEM,WP:ADHOMINEM). You have mentioned many times the importance of making Wikipedia better in your talk page posts, so I would request we focus on that and refrain from such unwarranted accusations in this and other fora[1] on Wikipedia since doing that is a violation of Wikipedia norms as far as I understand them.
Several days after you had first wrongly issued a warning to me for my good faith edits, you noticed the previous work I had done on the article and apologized for your unwarranted warnings[2], and I appreciate that. To provide some context to my involvement on this page, in March, after the article merge, I noticed the article had been tagged to be [3][4] in need of more secondary sources to be analyzed and added. I engaged with users informing all of the required edits needed [5]] and my intent to work on it. Thereafter, I spent quite a bit of time identifying authoritative academic resources from the library and online databases and diligently studied them. After I had a clear understanding of the scholarly work published, I carefully restructured and rewrote much of the article collaborating with other interested editors. I mention this history to give context to my approach to your recent edits.
You are a very rapid and prolific editor, whereas I seem to be more plodding and methodical in my approach to edits. So, when I observed that you had made a number of rapid edits that misconstrued some facts from the authoritative academic sources without engaging on the talk page to discuss your proposed edits, I thought I should clarify things. So, I read through all your edits and based on the reliable sources I had studied in depth, I revised or, if needed, removed only those of your edits that were not aligned with current scholarship on the issue, providing ample justification for my edits on the talk page and citing Wikipedia policies that were being violated.
But unlike WP:OWN, I did not remove every edit you made, or fail to provide proper justification for what I changed. Nor did I claim to have the sole right to edit the page or accuse you of bias or bad faith in your edits even when many of your edits cited sources that did not verify the information you added. Ultimately, my intent to change some of your edits was only to properly and accurately represent the information in current scholarship on this topic. We may certainly need to discuss these issues further to arrive at some consensus, and perhaps other editors may also have their own points of view, but I feel it is against Wikipedia policy to make unfounded accusations against me on this talk page and in multiple other fora on Wikipedia when I am simply following WP:BRD with regards to some of the edits that you have made.
I appreciate your recent posts on the talk page that engage with my arguments using scholarly sources as I am sure our exchange will make this article even better. As I mentioned, I am not as fast as you, so please bear with me while I examine your detailed arguments and go back to the sources before I make a statement about whether I agree or disagree with you and why. Apollo1203 (talk) 03:32, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for your reply. I have indeed given detailed responses after I first got very annoyed by the simultaneous reverts of multiple edits by you and Actionjackson09 (the pov-pushing, by another editor, at other pages, had already triggered alarms), and the very long talkpage-responses. After my initial response, I started additional reading too, and for this page it comes down to three points:
- Talk:Swaminarayan Sampradaya#Relation with Vallabha's Pushtimarg and Ramajuna's Vishtadvaita: there are historical connections, which situate Swaminayaran in a historical and religious context, and deserve, nay need, to be mentioned to get a better understanding; this is partly done now at the Beliefs-section
- the difference between the two original diocees and the BAPS. There is a 'theologiccal' difference, rooted in the praxis of devotion: whereas the original diocees think that Swaminayaran is present in his images and writings, the BAPS belief/praxis is that Swaminayaran is still present in the living Akshar-guru. This could be explained better, by explaining better how the devotion toward Swaminarayan came about, and wbat it means to devote God in his living presence.
- Talk:Swaminarayan Sampradaya#Mode of succession: the claim that "Swaminarayan established two modes of succession" is not substantiated by the sources. Swaminarayan established two modes of authority; the BAPS claims spiritual succession. That's a crucial difference; when misrepresented, neutralicy is violated.
- Talk:Swaminarayan Sampradaya#Modes of succession paraphrasing: Williams gives a nuanced explanation of the BAPS-claims of spiritual succession, which I'd summarized using several quotes. These quotes were "paraphrased, omitting essential info, and interpreting and misrepresenting Williams, presenting a BAPS-pov.
- Regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:22, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for your reply. I have indeed given detailed responses after I first got very annoyed by the simultaneous reverts of multiple edits by you and Actionjackson09 (the pov-pushing, by another editor, at other pages, had already triggered alarms), and the very long talkpage-responses. After my initial response, I started additional reading too, and for this page it comes down to three points:
- I kind of agree with what Joshua Jonathan has outlined and the sentiment. It seems there is a lot of resistance against information or beliefs about other branches that even slightly represents ideology that isn't accepted by Baps. I thought a lot of Joshua Jonathan edits made sense and helped readers get a better understanding of the faith as a whole as opposed to a page that was heavily narrated from the POV of one branch. Kbhatt22 (talk) 13:23, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
- Kbhatt22,Joshua Jonathan The responses and edits I have been making are not about “narrating the POV of one branch” but rather the accurate presentation of the scholarship. As I have stated earlier, I have studied the material in detail, and I have made necessary edits solely using Wikipedia policies. Commenting on the article content is acceptable; personal attacks are not. The consistent attacks of POV pushing or sectarian alliances are not in good faith WP:AOBF. I am not the only one who feels this way. Your contributions to Wikipedia are commendable, and being blocked for some bad faith accusations is not worth it.Apollo1203 (talk) 03:33, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
- It's clear that you've read a lot; I appreciate that. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:32, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
- The comments about pov or secretarian are not directed at anyone in particular. Just an observation that some sources cited have secretarian alliance and we do have users making edits who have gone on record stating they are representatives of a branch. I think all that has to be accounted for. Appreciate the research you have done but I do not feel a good faith policy violation has occurred. Kbhatt22 (talk) 10:30, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
Rename (again...)
Since "sampradaya" not only refers to a system or school of thought, and various branches have various ideas about the correct line of sucession, it might be more apt to move this article to "Swaminarayan movement." This term is also used in the scholarly literature, and covers, or includes, the various denominations of 'Swaminayarism'. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:41, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
- I am not sure I follow this sentence in your above post, “Since ‘sampradaya’ not only refers to a system or a school of thought….”, I am assuming the ‘not’ was a typo, and that you are asserting that a sampradaya only refers to a system or school of thought. Please correct me if I have misunderstood your point here. If that is what you mean, then I would say the following in response.
- Williams (2018) notes: “Swaminarayan is one of many manifestations of Hinduism, .... The common word in India for such groups is sampraday[a], which is difficult to translate” (p.2). And in the paragraph following this quote Williams (2018) says: “This revised edition brings the story of the Swaminarayan sampraday up to date through the enormous changes that are currently taking place in India and abroad” (p.2).
- Indeed those scholars who have used ‘movement’ instead of sampraday are not rejecting the use of ‘sampraday’ but using ‘movement’ as one admittedly imperfect (i.e. “difficult to translate”) English translation of ‘sampraday’. Other scholars have opted for different translations (such as faith). So, while I see that there have been various English translations of Sampradaya used by scholars in different contexts, I agree with Williams’ suggestion that each of these translations are lacking in some important ways. With movement, for example, I feel it too vague as a title for the article - as it could indicate a social, political, educational, art, music, or even terrorist movement, whereas the word sampradaya is more specific to a Hindu religious context and avoids this confusion.
- Also, as I mentioned, while it is not completely clear to me from what Joshua Jonathan has written in his post, I assume he is suggesting that since various branches have various modes of succession, they should be seen as different sampradayas. However, in reading through academic sources, it seems clear that scholars assert that even though some commonalities bind them together, a sampradaya can have within it various branches with various modes of succession and variations in belief and practice. This is true in the case of the scholarship both on the Swaminarayan Sampradaya and on other sampradayas. I have already given one example of this in my quotes of Williams(2018) above, but so as not to make the post overly long, I will give just two more representative examples of this to demonstrate scholarly use of the term Sampradaya demonstrates this point.
- See I Patel (2018): “The Swaminarayan Sampradaya is currently one of the fastest growing Hindu traditions in the world with over two thousand temples, including the popular Akshardham temples in Gandhinagar and New Delhi. While it started as a small group in the Saurashtra region of present-day Gujarat, today the Swaminarayan Sampraday comprises several transnational denominations, notably the Vadtal Gadi, the Ahmedabad Gadi, and the Bochasanwasi Shri Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha (BAPS), which together have more than five million members in India and abroad.” (p.2) This quote demonstrates that all denominations or branches listed fall under the Swaminarayan sampraday, and that a sampradaya is not monolithic and can and does have multiple viewpoints and branches within it.
- For another academic example of this use of Sampradaya outside of scholarship on the Swaminarayan sampradaya, see the Oxford Bibliography page on the Rāmānandī Sampradāya(note: no relation to the Ramanand Swami discussed in the Swaminarayan Sampradaya article): “Rāmānanda’s disciples (and subsequently their own disciples) likely followed these mixed teachings and, while passing them on, incorporated new theories or developed new interpretations. These traits resulted in a sampradāya highly differentiated in branches and sub-branches concerned with Rām bhakti.” (https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0197.xml). This makes clear that sampradayas can not only have branches but also sub-branches.
- So, after considering all of this, I don’t see the article name change to “Swaminarayan movement” having a strong enough benefit or solving a critical problem for it to be warranted, since as I mentioned, numerous academic sources indicate a sampradaya can include within it multiple branches that have multiple variations in practice, beliefs, and succession. Therefore, I feel that ‘ Swaminarayan Sampradaya’ is appropriate for the name of this article. Actionjackson09 (talk) 15:12, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
- You noticed indeed a missing part; it should have been "Since "sampradaya" not only refers to a system or school of thought, but also to a line of succession, and various branches have various ideas about the correct line of sucession". Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:23, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with ActionJackson09 in his logic. I had also in my reading of academic sources run across what he states. I would also add Kim 2010, page 362 stating “This paper focuses on one specific group in the Swaminarayan sampradaya known as Bochasanwasi Shri Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha.” Basically, multiple academic sources are using the term Swaminarayan Sampradaya to include the multiple branches that are within it. So, I would reject Joshua Jonathan's assertion. Apollo1203 (talk) 02:16, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
- I can see that there are multiple terms used to describe this entity - movement, sampradaya, group, tradition, etc. But I am most convinced by one sentence in Williams (2018) that has been cited in ActionJackson09's post, which states: "Swaminarayan is one of many manifestations of Hinduism, .... The common word in India for such groups is sampraday[a], which is difficult to translate." As a scholar who has written and edited multiple books on the topic is saying that "sampraday" is the common name for the group in its place of origin, it makes sense to me that the title of the article should reflect this common name and remain as Swaminarayan sampraday. Tale.Spin (talk) 02:17, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Named references
When using named references, at least let's try to use the name of the author and the year of publication as the name. Thus, instead of <ref name=":3" />, ref name="Warrier2012">. Much more convenient. Even better would be the sfn-format, so we don't need separate tags for the pagenumbers, and have all the sources collected together in a list. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:46, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
- I've formatted one reference diff, to give an example. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:46, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you, Joshua Jonathan for the suggestion. Earlier in the year when I was working on revamping the article, I followed a method to ensure the reference section would not become extremely lengthy. Additionally, in order to follow consistency this article should follow the same citation style previously used (WP:CITESTYLE). Apollo1203 (talk) 03:52, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Apollo1203 (talk · contribs). The current approach for citing material in the article is to avoid the references section becoming too bulky. I suggest we stick to this approach. Having different styles for named references and other references would be confusing. Harshmellow717 (talk) 04:33, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- I don't understand what you mean with the reference-section becoming to lenghty; could you please explain? Note also that some sections are now overcrowded with ref-definitions; that's quite inconvenient when editing. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:52, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- The method you are using, Joshua Jonathan, will add a particular reference multiple times in the reference section. For example, in your Modes of Succession proposal you have cited Williams 2001 on three separate occasions and in the reference list it will show up three times. Using the current citation format on your proposal would only reference Williams once and associated page numbers would be added to the citation within the text using the appropriate template. Also, based on the manual of style WP:CITESTYLE we should not change how citations are done. Apollo1203 (talk) 01:35, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
- @Apollo1203: ah yes, I see. Well, how then about at leasr using a recognisable name instead of a numerical code for the names of the references? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:29, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
- The method you are using, Joshua Jonathan, will add a particular reference multiple times in the reference section. For example, in your Modes of Succession proposal you have cited Williams 2001 on three separate occasions and in the reference list it will show up three times. Using the current citation format on your proposal would only reference Williams once and associated page numbers would be added to the citation within the text using the appropriate template. Also, based on the manual of style WP:CITESTYLE we should not change how citations are done. Apollo1203 (talk) 01:35, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
- I don't understand what you mean with the reference-section becoming to lenghty; could you please explain? Note also that some sections are now overcrowded with ref-definitions; that's quite inconvenient when editing. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:52, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- Apollo1203 (talk · contribs) has summarized what I had mentioned about the references becoming too bulky. I agree we should follow the current style as per policy and not change citations now [WP:CITEVAR]. The citation style proposed by Joshua Jonathan (talk · contribs) is better suited for editing new or stub articles with fewer references. I think we can now close this topic. Harshmellow717 (talk) 01:15, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
No, none of you has responded to my question about using logical names instead of a numerical code. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:17, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
- @Joshua Jonathan: I searched Wikipedia citation policies and was unable to find what you are referring to, nor do I understand the method you're proposing. However, the citation method currently on the article avoids duplication (WP:DUPREF) and is not difficult to follow. Additionally, as Harshmellow717 and I have stated (based on policy and MOS), the citation style and method should not be altered once a certain methodology was historically followed due to preferences. Apollo1203 (talk) 04:32, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
- Regarding the method an sich:
ah yes, I see
. Regarding the proposed method of giving names:Instead of <ref name=":3" />, <ref name="Warrier2012">
. See diff, to give an example. When editing the page, it's very inconvenient to have to search for a numerical reference. When we use logical names (authorname + year of publication), you don't even have to search for the nummer; you can just use the logical name. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:38, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
- Regarding the method an sich:
Further Reading
Hello all, I have renamed the “Sources” section to “Further Reading” so it is not confused with references. I think this is a good addition to the article by Joshua Jonathan (talk · contribs). I have amended the list to focus on articles specifically pertaining to the Swaminarayan Sampradaya to present the reader with a more relevant list. Harshmellow717 (talk) 02:59, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
- See the section above, to which no one responded. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:10, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
- Joshua Jonathan (talk · contribs) I was referring to the formatting of the Further Reading section that I have done, not the method of citing material. I had initially renamed the “sources” section to “further reading” in accordance with [MOS:FNNR]. It states that “Sources” is generally used as an alternate title for “references”, so in order to avoid confusion between the two I renamed it “Further Reading”. You have since removed my edits indicated in the edit summary that this section is still being used as sources [6]. However, I feel it is unnecessary and confusing to have two lists of references. The further reading section will allow the reader to quickly identify the most important sources used in the article and so I have once again renamed “Sources” to “Further Reading” and formatted it in accordance with [MOS:FNNR] and [MOS:FURTHER]. I have identified the 5 most important academic secondary sources based on their intext citation counts in the article and included them in this section.
- The references and their intext citation counts are as follows:
- Raymond Williams “Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism (2018)” - 32
- Raymond Williams & Yogi Trivedi “Swaminarayan Hinduism: Tradition, Adaptation, and Identity” - 63
- Paramtattvadas Swami “Introduction to Swaminarayan Hindu Theology” - 55
- Patel, Iva (2018) “Hinduism and Tribal Religions” - 15
- Kim, H. (2014). Svāminārāyaṇa: Bhaktiyoga and the Akṣarabrahman Guru. In Gurus of Modern Yoga.: Oxford University Press - 13
- Brahmbhatt, Arun “Global religious movements across borders: sacred service” - 10
- I have removed the 2001 edition of Raymond Williams ‘Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism’ book because the latest edition of the book should be used as per [WP:AGE MATTERS]. Within the article, I think we should update the 2001 references to the latest 2018 edition. Additionally, I have removed the 2018 Aarti Patel article as it is only cited twice and so is not that important of a source for further reading. Harshmellow717 (talk) 01:05, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
- Harshmellow717 has made a fair justification for the Further Reading section. When I saw the Sources and Reference sections, I was not sure of the distinction between the two either. Since the article and the reference list is quite lengthy, having the top cited references added in the Further Reading section makes sense and aligns with the manual of style (MOS:FURTHER). Actionjackson09 (talk) 02:08, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
- Okay. Maybe make a distinction between short intro's avalaible online (includes 2005), and longer monographs, chapters and articles. Short overviews can be usefull as quick introductions. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:31, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
Proposed Addition to Practices Section
While Sahajanand's ethical reforms have been regarded as a protest against immoral Pushtimarg practices,[1] Sahajanand was in fact influenced by and positive towards Vallabha and other Vaisna-traditions, and his reforms may have been primarily targeted against Tantrics, and against practices "associated with village and tribal deities."[2] In fact, Swaminarayan incorporated devotional practices of Vallabhas Pushtimarg,[3][4] to gain acceptance in western India.[4][note 1]
- Notes
- ^ Shruti Patel (2017): "it is probable that Sahajanand did not possess the means by which to initiate his views and have them or him be seamlessly accepted in western India at the outset of the century. For this reason, first incorporating common and observable aspects of Vaishava culture would have mitigated his appearing unknown, made Sahajanand’s aims seem less drastic, and contributed to advancing his local influence in with an aura of rootedness. By identifying with the widely-recognised Pustimarg in the course of worshipping Krsna the Svaminarayan foundation could be related to an identifiable, solidified ethos. Particularly, assimilation would be achieved more effortlessly with the adoption of select Pustimarg symbols. And yet, this would not require the sacrifice of core ideas or independence."[4]
- References
- ^ Williams 2018, p. 29.
- ^ Williams 2018, p. 30.
- ^ Williams 2001, p. 35.
- ^ a b c Patel 2017, p. 53.
Explanation: The second paragraph in Joshua Jonathan’s proposal, and the phrase about Vallabha’s devotional praxis at then end of the other discussion, is I feel better suited to the “Practices” section. I fail to see the point of discussing its inclusion in the belief’s section, when there is another section dealing with “Practices”. Thanks, Skubydoo (talk) 02:20, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Apollo's Response
I agree that this is more relevant to the Practices section. However, I had mentioned problems with this particular formation. I have copied here the relevant problems that I had earlier noted (with additional context inserted in), and at the end, I’ve proposed a reformulation.
Overall, the first sentence is not an accurate description of what Williams is claiming. Williams makes no mention of “influence”, only that practices were adopted (Williams 2018: 30). Further, there is no explicit mention that Sahajanand was ‘positive towards Vallabha’, but only that practices were “affirmed.” Adding “positive towards Vallabha...” in the edit is too vague and it also inaccurately represents Williams’s claims. Williams notes further, in the context of the adoption of practices: “These decisions are consistent with his generally positive affirmations of other Vaishnava and Krishnite traditions, even though he criticised various forms of immoral conduct by some religious leaders and groups.” There is no specific mention of the “influence” of Vallabha or others and Williams describes a consistency among Swaminarayan’s tradition/practices and Vaishnava traditions. The edit needlessly highlights “Vallabha,” even as the import of Williams’s claim is more general: “Vaishnava and Krishnite traditions.” Further, it’s not clear why we need “While Sahajanand's ethical reforms have been regarded as a protest against immoral Pushtimarg practices,” as that is a claim Williams is rejecting, so it adds unnecessary clutter (Williams is talking within an academic discourse, so we do not need to include the negation of a claim, which a general reader wouldn’t have in mind).
In the edit, saying “against practices associated with village and tribal deities,” misrepresents what Williams is saying WP:RSCONTEXT. Williams notes: “That leaves open the interpretation that the primary focus of Swaminarayan’s criticisms were Tantrics and followers of another left-handed Shakti cult, known as Vama-Marga, which was popular at the time, and other disreputable practices associated with village and tribal deities, as François Mallison argues. Those rituals included animal sacrifices, eating meat, drinking intoxicants, and sexual license, all of which were prohibited in Swaminarayan’s teachings” (30). Williams prefaced the quote “village and tribal deities” with “disreputable practices associated with,” which the original edit doesn’t convey. misrepresenting the quote (again, WP:RSCONTEXT). (Here Williams is providing an interpretation, which although interesting does not seem to be significant enough to include in the article, because it is tentatively worded; indeed, he prefaces it with “That leaves open the interpretation”; and Williams himself isn’t proposing/nor it seems supporting the interpretation).
Regarding “In fact, Swaminarayan incorporated devotional practices of Vallabhas Pushtimarg, to gain acceptance in western India,” please see what I had mentioned earlier:
What is added is making a historical claim for the sampradaya which S Patel (2017) is clearly not emphasizing (WP:OR). There are more quotes within the same source that make it clear that Pushtimarg was a matter of identification and not for gaining recognition: “I would like to caution against reading the pointed but limited agreement with the Pushtimarg as a means by which to pin down the history of Svaminarayan development” (S Patel 2017: 54); “Though it has been valuable to understand how the Svaminarayan community engaged with the Pushtimarg, we should pause before implicitly extending this relationship to Sahajanand’s entire vision” (S Patel 2017: 57); the Pushtimarg (amongst other influences) was one reference point, not a catalyst for Sahajanand’s initiative (S Patel 2017: 57). S Patel (2017) clearly asserts that she does not stand behind any claim about Swaminarayan "utilising" Pushtimarg for an ulterior purpose, like gaining recognition. She says, "to be clear, I am not implying that forging a connection to the Pushtimarg excluded the possibility of genuine respect and affection for it by Sahajanand, but retaining likeness to establishment also would have been potent in sanctioning novelty" (53). She uses the phrase "would have been potent," meaning that retaining likeness may have helped sanction the novelty that colored Swaminarayan's distinct and categorically novel tradition. But that such a utilization of the support of established traditions did occur is a claim Patel does not unequivocally affirm. She, in fact, thinks it important to clarify precisely that she doesn't mean to say that. And thus quoting her to suggest Swaminarayan's “utilising elements of Vallabha’s Pushtimarg to gain recognition” is misrepresenting her intention and involves cherrypicking (WP:Cherrypicking) a quote.
Hence, please see my reformulation, which removes undue emphasis etc., but still conveys the insight Joshua Jonathan seeks to provide:
- "The practices Swaminarayan prescribed were in part consistent with “Vaishnava and Krishnite traditions.” (Williams 2018, 30) Shruti Patel argues that such a consistency with existing practices would have aided in “sanctioning [the] novelty” of sampradaya. (S Patel 2017, 53)"
Apollo1203 (talk) 22:09, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
- Hello @Apollo1203:, thank you for the thorough explanation. I understand the logic behind your proposal and agree it is more coherent and concise WP:BECONCISE. As I stated earlier, I believe this would fit best in the ‘Practices’ section. Best wishes, Skubydoo (talk) 03:05, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
I'd already reformulated my proposal; seems to have escaped the attention of Skubydoo:
While Sahajanand's ethical reforms have been regarded as a protest against immoral Pushtimarg practices,[1] Sahajanand affirmed the devotional practices of Vallabha and other Vaisna-traditions, and his reforms may have been primarily targeted against Tantrics, and against practices "associated with village and tribal deities."[2] In fact, Swaminarayan incorporated devotional practices of Vallabhas Pushtimarg,[3][4] to gain acceptance in western India.[4][note 1]
- Notes
- ^ Shruti Patel (2017): "it is probable that Sahajanand did not possess the means by which to initiate his views and have them or him be seamlessly accepted in western India at the outset of the century. For this reason, first incorporating common and observable aspects of Vaishava culture would have mitigated his appearing unknown, made Sahajanand’s aims seem less drastic, and contributed to advancing his local influence in with an aura of rootedness. By identifying with the widely-recognised Pustimarg in the course of worshipping Krsna the Svaminarayan foundation could be related to an identifiable, solidified ethos. Particularly, assimilation would be achieved more effortlessly with the adoption of select Pustimarg symbols. And yet, this would not require the sacrifice of core ideas or independence."[4]
- References
- ^ Williams 2018, p. 29.
- ^ Williams 2018, p. 30.
- ^ Williams 2001, p. 35.
- ^ a b c Patel 2017, p. 53.
I think it's quite relevant to mention that
While Sahajanand's ethical reforms have been regarded as a protest against immoral Pushtimarg practices,[1] [...] his reforms may have been primarily targeted against Tantrics, and against practices "associated with village and tribal deities.[2]
Swaminarayan has often been portrayed as a reformer of the Pusjtimarg, whereas this text offers an alternative option. Regarding the relation with other Vedanta-traditions, it's clear that Swaminarayan was firmly rooted in other Vedanta-traditions. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:24, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
Image Diversification
This was a point raised over 2 months ago and kind of fell of everyone's radar. The initial discussion and break down is on my sandbox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kbhatt22/sandbox. There are 9 images in the body of this article of which 8 originate from Baps. That's a solid 88%. The intent is to diversify the images to have some representation for the other branches instead of the images representing/promoting one branch. Try to be branch agnostic where we can, the best way for this is to try to pick images of things originally done by Swaminarayan himself. I looked through all the discussions and these were the only proposed revisions with actual images. Any one have any input or objection to the diversification? @Joshua Jonathan: wouldn't mind some fresh input as well if possible.
Proposed Aarti Image Update (Not sure which one is better. Thoughts?):
- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Aarti.jpg
- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Nar-Narayan_Dev_Aarti_In_Kalupur_Mandir_-_First_Swaminarayan_Murti.jpg
Proposed Murti Image Update:
We could also replace the sketch image of the first swaminarayan temple with an actual image from the wiki catalog: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaminarayan_Temple,_Ahmedabad#/media/File:Shree_Swaminarayan_Sampraday,_Ahmedabad.jpg
Thanks everyone. Kbhatt22 (talk) 13:02, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
Harshad Dave , "Bhagwan Shri Swaminarayan"
Harshad Dave, Bhagwan Shri Swaminarayan, is not available at Google Books, nor at Google Scholar; from what I've glimpsed of him, Dave is (was?) a devotee. Altogether, this does not look like WP:RS. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:55, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
- @Joshua Jonathan (talk · contribs) Makes sense. The book is also published by the publishing house belonging to one of the branches https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38514580-bhagwan-shri-swaminarayan---part-1 so I would say it becomes difficult to separate any bias from it. I think the same can be said about the books used as sources that are written by Paramtattvadas and Bhadreshdas Swami as a simple search of their names shows they are members of Baps branch. Not saying anything wrong with using them, but I think anything sourced from all 3 of these should be clear that they represent the view of the respective branch. You have already done this in a lot of places by prefacing the use of these sources with things like Baps believes which makes it clear for readers. Probably still best on a page representing the whole faith to try and stick with branch neutral sources when possible. Kbhatt22 (talk) 13:42, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
- Paramtattvadas is perfectly fine for his own analyses, and probably also for BAPS in general. But he's a theologian, not a historian of religion or a scholar of religion; and indeed, a BAPS-member. Regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:37, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
Manifestation and devotion
As mentioned above, I think that the article could elaborate more on the belief in Swaminarayan as a manifestation of God; the understanding of Akshar in the various branches; and the practice of devotion towards Vishnu/Krishna/Swaminarayan/akshar-guru. I found the interview in Williams (2001) p.87 enlightening; as a westerner, with a strong inclination towards nirguna Brahman (Zen Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta), I recognised what was told there. It's part of what I do, implicitly; here, it is made explicit. With this interview in mind, read the intro to Dasbodh is like "oh yes, of course; this is about the same." Ramana maharshi, usually depicted as an Advaitin, but regarded as an incarnation/manifestation of Shiva, giving darshan to his devotees: oh yes, now I see. It's obvious, but you've got to have a frame of reference to recognise it. There is a strong Advaita bias at Wikipedia, and very little is explained about actual devotional practice; most is about theory and philosophy. But to understand, feel what it's about, readers have to get info on what devotees do, and what they experience. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:44, 31 August 2020 (UTC) PS: ever listened to George Harrison's My Sweet Lord from All Things Must Pass? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:03, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
- That would be a good addition but also becomes dicey because all the branches share variations in those beliefs and practices. I think as long as it is segmented by branch, it would provide good value for the readers. I also think this leads into one of you're earlier suggestions of the page where it is more of a historical walk through of the faiths growth. Because then this page could represent the faith historically as a whole and then guide to each branches pages where their branch specific beliefs are outlined. This eliminates any possibility of one branches ideology coming off as applicable to the entire faith. An example is the Metaphysics section is written up currently to represent one branches beliefs and uses sources originating from one branch and I don't think all the branches accept it the way ti is currently written. Kind of gets confusing if its not prefaced with what branch it represents. Here is something that used to be on this page from Willaim Brodeys book on page 162 which is a more basic, branch agnostic belief:
- Upon initiation, Satsangi make 11 vows, called Niyams (Rules):
- Be non-violent
- Do not have any kind of relationship with a woman other than your wife
- Do not eat meat, including seafood, poultry products or eggs
- Do not drink products that contain alcohol, including medicines
- Never touch a widow woman whom you do not know
- Never commit suicide in any circumstances
- Do not steal
- Never blame others for something that you may not know about
- Never disparage God, Goddesses, or any religion
- Never eat someone's food who does not follow these eleven rules
- Never listen to holy stories from an atheist.
- So I agree. I think more practical day to day rituals or beliefs like this would better represent the faith as a whole on this page. Kbhatt22 (talk) 14:07, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
BAPS-practice
Regarding this revert, which changed (emphasis mine)
During puja, adherents worship Swaminarayan and, for BAPS-members, the lineage of Aksharbrahman Gurus through whom Swaminarayan is believed to be manifest, by performing a series of ritual acts before their murtis.
back to
During puja, adherents worship Swaminarayan and, depending on their denominational affiliation, the lineage of Aksharbrahman Gurus through whom Swaminarayan is believed to be manifest, by performing a series of ritual acts before their murtis.
edit-summary
Inaccurate statement; see Paramtattvadas (2017) 308-310)
The source being used here, Hanna Kim (2014), Devotional expressions in the Swaminarayan community, in P. Kumar, Contemporary Hinduism, p. 132, describes BAPS-practices. I see no reference to practices from other "denominational affiliation[s]" at that page.
It's not clear from your edit-summary what you deem to be inaccurate, nor what exactly it is in Paramtattvadas you're referring to. Could you please explain what exactly you think is inaccurate, and what Paramtattvadas states that makes you think so? And could you please provide quotes for verification? Not every source is easily accessible online.
NB: "believed to be manifest" should be "believed by BAPS to be manifest." Kim (2014) p.132:
For devotees, Gunatitanand Swami represents the first in a lineage of BAPS gurus
The sentence is misleading, by withholding information, suggesting that all Swaminayaran-devotees believe that Swaminayaran manifests through (emphasis mine) "the lineage of Aksharbrahman Gurus," but that some denominations choose not to worship this lineage. The most accurate statement, as per Kim (2014) p.132, would be
During puja, BAPS adherents worship Swaminarayan and the lineage of Aksharbrahman Gurus through whom Swaminarayan is believed to be manifest, by performing a series of ritual acts before their murtis.
Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:11, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with User:Joshua Jonathan in that we should clearly outline anything that is branch/denomination specific as this clearly is. Removing words that preface it with the respective branch can give false information. Especially when the source outlines it as an interpretive understanding of a branch and not the whole faith. The same can be said about the 3rd paragraph in the opening of the page where it talks about Aksharbrahmguru. The source literally says at the opening of the chapter cited "as understood by Baps Swaminarayan Hindus" -> https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199463749.001.0001/acprof-9780199463749-chapter-10. Details like this should preface the statements to make this a more encyclopedic experience for the reader Kbhatt22 (talk) 18:30, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
- C-Class Hinduism articles
- Top-importance Hinduism articles
- C-Class Hindu philosophy articles
- Top-importance Hindu philosophy articles
- C-Class Krishnaism articles
- Top-importance Krishnaism articles
- C-Class Swaminarayan articles
- Top-importance Swaminarayan articles
- C-Class Theology articles
- Mid-importance Theology articles
- WikiProject Theology articles
- C-Class India articles
- Mid-importance India articles
- C-Class India articles of Mid-importance
- WikiProject India articles
- C-Class organization articles
- Low-importance organization articles
- WikiProject Organizations articles
- C-Class Religion articles
- Top-importance Religion articles
- C-Class New religious movements articles
- High-importance New religious movements articles
- New religious movements articles
- WikiProject Religion articles