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Nickname style debate

Popcornfud seems to believe wrestler nicknames and ringnames should both use a lowercase "the" and lose the quotation marks, per a guideline in the general Manual of Style. I suggested to him our style guide explicitly addressed how it works in wrestling, but I was wrong, it doesn't. I still believe there's an implicit unwritten rule, based on the decades of near-universal usage by the promotions and those who write about them. See Dwayne Johnson and Rick Martel for how wrong it looks in practice, then decide whether we should adopt this newfangled idea to the hundreds of other longstanding gimmicks on Wikipedia, or leave well enough alone. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:07, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just notifying Popcornfud again, screwed up the first time. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:10, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The relevant policy is MOS:NICKNAMETHE: A leading "the" is not capitalized in a nickname, pseudonym, or other alias. I believe this is pretty cut and dry, and this is exactly why we are supposed to have this policy, to settle debates like this.

Perhaps it would be possible for editors of wrestling pages to agree on a local exception for this policy and add it to the style guide for the professional wrestling wikiproject. I don't know if that kind of thing happens on Wikipedia. I would oppose this as it creates bigger inconsistency and I don't see why it looks any stranger for wrestlers than it does rappers, bands, or anyone else. Popcornfud (talk) 22:25, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In wrestling, there's a greater mix of stage/ring names and nicknames than in other fields. When you call Martel the Model, it suggests he was just plain billed as "Model", like Shawn Stasiak was pure Meat. Martel's case is unlike The Rock's, whose proper character name (usually unquoted in bold) was just that, but nicknamed "The People's Champion". InedibleHulk (talk) 22:59, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

When you call Martel the Model, it suggests he was just plain billed as "Model",

No it doesn't and I don't understand why you think this.

Where individuals have various aliases/nicknames/ring names/etc we should treat each of them the same in terms of formatting. We certainly shouldn't invent our own styles, like using caps or quotation marks for ring names but not nicknames or whatever, and just hope that readers will understand what these different stylings are supposed to indicate. Just keep it simple. Popcornfud (talk) 23:20, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is simple, to people familiar with wrestling, so fundamentally weird presented otherwise. Two very distinct types of labels. Nobody here invented the format, it goes back a century or more. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:28, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Opposed to project-specific exceptions to general style guidelines in general. If there's a question, WT:MOSCAPS would be a good place to work it out. I'd just go with MOS:NICKNAMETHE as we do in so many other topic areas. Dicklyon (talk) 22:45, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's a tough one, as a single policy couldn't cover every situation. In that sense, I disagree with the Popcorn guy's cookie-cutter approach. Some wrestlers are referred to by a stand-alone nickname. Dwayne Johnson is The Rock. Rick Martel is The Model. Duke Droese is The Dumpster. Writing those with a lowercase "t" looks ridiculous. In text, I don't see a need for quotation marks, though. "Jerry Lawler smashed a garbage can over The Dumpster's head" works just fine. Other people are referred to by a nickname that doesn't include a "the", and this might lend itself more to the Popcorn style. For example, "Macho Man" Randy Savage might be stylized as seen in this sentence: "Ric Flair implied that he was sleeping with the Macho Man's wife". In other (rare) cases, the "t" might be lowercase in some instances but couldn't stand alone. Jake "The Snake" Roberts is the only example I can think of. I can't think of a sentence in which he could be referred to as "The Snake", but it would make sense to write something like "The Model competed against Jake the Snake in a blindfold match". For all of these, I would only use quotation marks if the name and nickname were given at the same time: Jake "The Snake" Roberts, but Jake the Snake. "The Model" Rick Martel or Rick "The Model" Martel, but The Model. Really, this is a lot like bands. Some bands' names are commonly prefaced with "The". If that's how they billed themselves, "The" should be included. If not, the "The" should be omitted or written with a lowercase "t". If we need a local exception to a rule that doesn't make sense, I support an exception. GaryColemanFan (talk) 05:50, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There's certainly an exception to our exception (so don't ignore the general rule) in forms like Andre the Giant, Abdullah the Butcher and Doink the Clown (among others). In a regular sentence, more usual to see them called by their first names. "The Dumpster" and "The Model" never stood alone in ring intros like The Rock, though; more sensible to refer to them by their ring name's surname in prose, avoiding the issue entirely. The French Angel, The Masked Superstar and The Brian Kendrick stand alone (among others). The Powers of Pain are a weird mix, Warlord and/but The Barbarian, even hardcore smarks are somewhat mistaken or unsure about them. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:24, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Opposed to an exception here. Totally agree with InedibleHulk. Most of the time we should be using surnames anyhow. Primergrey (talk) 16:32, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Surnames are good most of the time, but most characters with The ringnames don't have surnames. And even if we just drop the "The" for better flow, we still should introduce all wrestlers in any wrestling article by their proper common name, especially if the The is right there in their Wikipedia bio title. We can call The Undertaker and The Ultimate Warrior Taker and Warrior later, but never the Warrior or Mark "The Undertaker" Callous, you know? I'm not sure we totally agree, especially since I want to maintain the same exception wrestling students and teachers have had for almost twenty years here (apparently in relative obscurity, but still demonstrably real to all who'd wish to see, dammit!). Anyhow, I like the way you spell "grey", even if I'd have CamelCased it (like JeriShow). InedibleHulk (talk) 01:40, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Use lowercase "the" per MOS:NICKNAMETHE. Music follows this with MOS:THEMUSIC at The Beatles and The Who. I don't see why pro wrestling should be an exception. Agree that surname should generally be used anyways, unless the WP:COMMONNAME article title does not include a surname.—Bagumba (talk) 04:41, 2 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Use lowercase the. This topic is not a magical exception to MOS:NICKNAMETHE, and that guideline exists specifically to address the desire to overcapitalize "the" in nicknames. It's silly that this thread even exists. If MoS says "Don't write dates in 2/8/2020 format" (and it does), there is no reason at all to start a thread asking "Can I use 2/8/2020 format when writing about US congressional elections, since lots of people who write about them in America use that format?" Argh. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 13:45, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Use uppercase The where applicable – Basically, I agree with InedibleHulk here, as well as GaryColemanFan. Also, while policies are for the most part mutually agreed upon guidelines to use, they are not the definitive rules. We don't have to abide by them in every single case, as they don't always work for every single case. Here is a prime example, as for some of these guys, these aren't nicknames and "The" is actually part of their ring name. --JDC808 ♫ 11:26, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Ring names, stage names, and all other pseudonyms are also covered by that guideline (in full: Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Pseudonyms, stage names, nicknames, hypocorisms, and common names). The very fact that this guideline exists to address cases of this sort means that cases of this sort are not exceptions, by definition. WP:IAR never applies for WP:ILIKEIT reasons. It applies when diverging from a rule at a specific article will objectively (not subjectively) improve the encyclopedia for readers. This does not qualify; it's just a subjective, arbitrary style preference. "Lots of sources do it" is irrelevant; if it's not done with virtually universal consistency accross sources, it's not an exception WP will make. "Most wrestling sources do it" doesn't matter; WP has its own style guide, and is not written like news (incl. wresting entertainment journalism), as a matter of clear policy. See also this ArbCom statement, also found in over a dozen other cases; wikiprojects and other groups of topically like-minded editors cannot make up their own rules against site-wide consensus found in guidelines or policies, across an entire topic or category (wikiproject scope claims do not amount of ownership of the subject). If this project is convinced that some kind of exception is important and justified, they can make a case in an RfC at WT:MOSBIO or WT:MOS to codify such an exception. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:17, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I personally don't like the way it looks but I think we need to follow the policy. The same applies to tag teams and stables - a while back I moved everything to "The Radicalz", "The Gangstas", etc but I guess these should really be at Radicalz, Gangstas, etc? McPhail (talk) 16:19, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes; this kind of question was settled in "The Beatles vs. the Beatles" and related RfCs years ago; codified here, though it really should be in MOS:BIO probably. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:17, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hall of Fame 2020

Hi. I have one question. Since the WWE Hall of Fame 2020 was postponed until 2021, should we change the name of the article to WWE Hall of Fame 2021? --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 18:20, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, because it's now a 2021 event. We'll have to wait and see exactly how WWE will handle the semantics of whether or not the slated 2020 inductees will still be considered Class of 2020, or if they'll just say they're Class of 2021 (and that's if they plan to induct more members for 2021), though they did announce JBL as a Hall of Famer at Survivor Series, even though he had not yet been inducted (he was to be inducted this year). --JDC808 ♫ 06:46, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, then it's time to wait until WWE makes his move. I never tought about WWE including more inductees. Fun fact, JBL was presented as Hall of Famer, while Batista was presented as WWE Legend. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 08:31, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why would we wait? The article here is about the event. The 2020 event is not happening as it's now merged with the 2021 event. I was saying wait and see in regard to how they handle the classes (e.g., Class of 2020 or Class of 2021 or both) instead of assuming something. The only thing we can do with that information is retain what we currently have. --JDC808 ♫ 06:59, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

AEW Dark

Do inconsequential AEW Dark matches fail WP:PW/BIO, which states that editors should refrain from writing in proseline ("week-by-week" format)? KyleJoan^talk 03:17, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. If a wrestler, like Red Velvet has several matches, we can just say "after working on Dark, Red was signed to a AEW contract". --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 08:32, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think it depends slightly on the context. E.g. if a independent wrestler makes a one-off appearance with AEW on Dark we could give a bit more detail. If a wrestler is repeatedly wrestling on Dark, I agree this would be summarised as above. McPhail (talk) 09:39, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, depends of the context. I was thinking on a regular basis, like SCU, Gunn Club or Red Velvet matches. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 10:17, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's the exact context I had in mind because I saw that a new editor has been including what reads like weekly results (e.g., "X defeated Y on Dark. X then defeated Z on Dark the following week.") in various articles. KyleJoan^talk 10:40, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, we shouldn't be updating by WP:PROSELINE like that anyway... Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:49, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that we don’t need excessive details of dark matches unless something significant happens such as one wrestlers accidentally causes a major injury to another wrestler and that wrestler was out for 8 months.--65.92.160.124 (talk) 20:39, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Template idea

We have the template template:Professional wrestling profiles which pulls the relevant pages from the Cagematch, Wrestlingdata, and Internet Wrestling Database databases for wrestlers. Could we do something similar for events, e.g. if the template was added to the WrestleMania X page it would link to the pages on the above websites? I have no idea how to create a template of this nature but just thought it could be an interesting idea. McPhail (talk) 11:12, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think linking to those sources would improve any PPV article. Don't they already have references that point to high-quality sources? Adding these three sources reminds me of when every page had a link to the wrestler's Online World of Wrestling profile. These sources are better, sure, but still not high-quality reliable sources. GaryColemanFan (talk) 13:59, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting help from Sock/Vandal in The Undertaker and The Streak (wrestling)

Check the page revision history and my message on User talk:Dory Funk. I have repeatedly requested them to refrain from removing WP:RS and seek Wp:RfC, but they just continue the vandalism. i would respect the decision by senior editors at WP:PW., if they go along with this then its fine. The similar edit pattern of User:ItsKesha and User:Dory Funk on both articles is pretty suspicious. Dilbaggg (talk) 13:22, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Similar edit patterns? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha have you even checked? ItsKesha (talk) 13:42, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ItsKesha yes, I have checked the revision history of both pages as well as the account creation time of both accounts. Still I might be wrong about the sock allegation, and I do not intend any personal attack, but removing WP:RS without consensus is clear vandalism. Dilbaggg (talk) 13:43, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Stop digging, mate. Really. ItsKesha (talk) 13:47, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Garbage report. I removed material from The Undertaker I felt was WP:CRUFT; Dilbaggg reverted my edit (fair enough). When another user sided with me, he flew into a juvenile rage with all sorts of allegations spewing forth. ItsKesha is largely focused on soccer, something I've never even watched, let alone edited about here. Dory Funk (talk) 13:46, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

curprev 01:33, 3 December 2020‎ ItsKesha talk contribs‎ 22,328 bytes −665‎ →‎December 2020: seeya undothank Tag: Manual revert

curprev 13:28, 8 December 2020‎ Dory Funk talk contribs‎ m 3,325 bytes −1,263‎ See ya. undothank Tag: Manual revert

see ya indeed eh socks Dory Funk, ItsKesha, now I am confused if i should take it to SPI or just go to AIV, even if I dont someone with a mop will eventually do it, seee ya indeed. Dilbaggg (talk) 13:50, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lmao, so "see ya", one of the most commonplace internet phrases in the Western world, is evidence of "socking". Sod off. Dory Funk (talk) 13:53, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What's there to be confused about? I mean it's so obvious we're the same account that you definitely won't be wasting anybody's time in reporting this and you definitely won't be embarrassing yourself in the process. ItsKesha (talk) 14:00, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dory Funk, ItsKesha i don't acre if you sock, it might get caught someday, thats not my headache but if you continue the vandalism on that article I will definitely report to AIV. Dilbaggg (talk) 14:05, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also the content definitely isn't WP:CRUFT, it is there because of its universal notability among the pro wrestling world and WP:RS. this is what i wrote on Dory Funk 's talk page (and admins can view the revision history if the disruptive editing continues

The message to talk. ─ (^talk)

Stop your disruptibve editing on The Undertaker deleting WP:RS contents. You only joined in 2020, you can not delete things based on personal views. Just because an individual user feels it needs to be cut and feels that it is not notable doesn't make it so, this list has been there since I first started viewing wikipedia since 2008 (though I started editing as a registered user from 2019), seek consensus before making such change, there are senior users on Wp:PW from at least 2005 who have more say tin the matter than you, it complies with WP:RS and all other guidelines and demonstrates that Taker had the highest victories at WM (considered the Superbowl of Wrestling) and the Streak has been one of the most prominent features in Wrestling history, and even after its demise Taker's highest number of victories is worth mentioning until someone surpasses this record. Seek WP:RfC and avoid deleting based on personal views. Moreover refrain from removing widely accepted Wp:RS contents which is definitely disruptive editing. Please do not start a WP:EW over it. Regards. Dilbaggg (talk) 09:50, 8 December 2020 (UTC)"[reply]

The sign of somebody not caring is to send 10+ messages on the matter, threatening to report users, and digging up comments in edit summaries. You have made no attempt whatsoever to actually discuss the changes on either page, have you? However, incredulously accusing people of disruptive editing and vandalism, and accusations of sockpuppetry. ItsKesha (talk) 14:14, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BRD entitles me to do as I did. Your entire "complaint" comes down to you having a hissyfit because someone supported my removal of the content. Dory Funk (talk) 14:15, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dory Funk, ItsKesha your edit history and account creation time is too suspicious to count you as separate users. I would respect the opinion of actual legit and older users. And do not threaten to Wp:EW, I have quated the reason why you aren't eligible to make such crucial change without seeking consensus, I have repeatedly requested you to go for Wp:RfC but you continue the disruptive edit. And I am allowed to warn you for such vandilism. Dilbaggg (talk) 14:22, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Still not attempting to discuss the changes, I see ItsKesha (talk) 14:24, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have discussed everything on my quote from Dory's talk page on the table above (the green shaded heading). As it is you who wants to make the change it is your job to request Wp:RfC and if the vote goes on your favor, no issues then Dory Funk, ItsKesha Dilbaggg (talk) 14:26, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

One might think that your sockpuppetry claims are an effort to pre-empt allegations that you are also User:Gorrrillla5, the account whose additions you are going to great lengths to protect. I haven't yet made that allegation myself. Dory Funk (talk) 14:28, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As the user Dilbag hasn't made any attempt whatsoever to even begin a discussion on whatever his bollocks complaint is, I have taken it upon myself to begin one. ItsKesha (talk) 14:33, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I dont go typing "see ya" or removing warnings in the same manner as you Dory Funk, ItsKesha, and go ahead accuse the gorilla guy, I got no issues with that lol, I even reverted that guys changes and that guy is from 2007 a year before I even started visiting wiki. But you two created accounts around the same time, have the same edit summary and similar edit history and behavior, just picking different topics except to support one another during conflicts. But that is not my headache, just stop the vandilism, and if you ant your change you need opinions from thes senior editoirs, so file an WP:RfC. Its a long lengthy process but patience is a virtue. Dilbaggg (talk) 14:34, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See ya, buddy. Dory Funk (talk) 14:36, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See ya space cowboy?LM2000 (talk) 08:13, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WWE Music Group discography's WP:RS blanking

Recent edits on WWE Music Group discography appears to be Wikipedia:Gaming the system by ItsKesha, removing all WP:RS, leaving a sourceless list, but as I am not attached to this article, I won't bother with it and it is upto the senior editors to decide, just letting them know if they feel like checking out, otherwise its fine. Dilbaggg (talk) 18:12, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Matter discussed here [1], we have been asked to go for WP:RSN and WP:RSNP, but since it is about not one but multiple articles and multiple sources, seeking advice. Dilbaggg (talk) 21:26, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So you think iTunes is a credible source? (the mass removal of content was correct per WP:NOTCATALOG and WP:PROMO, by the way. But here you are, making yet more accusations against me). Do you think WWE's own website isn't a primary source for articles about WWE? ItsKesha (talk) 22:10, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ItsKesha I explained multiple times, you ignorantly erase comments on your talk page, what can I do? I had it with having to repeat myself with your "attention seeking nature":

The message to User talk:ItsKesha,. ─ (^{User talk:ItsKesha,)}

User talk:ItsKesha, um what is a wrong dude, why are you removing WP:RS from The New Era (WWE), and please do not give over linking excuse, over linking is when you use multiple (more than three sources) to reference a line, sometimes a single source is not valid enough "like when people say an event is well received, just reference to one review is not sufficient. (Also sources like post-2013 bleacher report are usable per WP:PW/RS and primary sources like wwe.com are usable as long as they are not being used for "promotional purpose", and not all usable sources needs to be part of WP:PW/RS, other WP:RS can be used as long as they are not listed unreliable in WP:PW/RS. So please stop removing WP:RS as it is sort of disruptive editing, but I will assume WP:AGF and hope you are not Wikipedia:Gaming the system which is kinda what it seems on WWE Music Group discography. Wish you well. Dilbaggg (talk) 17:33, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As explained Post 2013 bleacher report is allowed to be used as a source as per WP:PW/RS, and other sources not listed as unreliable on PW/RS can also be used, I had a discussion on the matter with the senior user Nikkimaria who told me and you can view the talk page (As I've already told you, WP:PW/RS is not a comprehensive list of all reliable sources, and you've cited this particular source several times. It doesn't contradict the other sources you cite either, you're just not correctly interpreting it - it refers specifically to "fair wrestlers" not all wrestlers. Given that context I see no reason to question its reliability, although you're of course welcome to raise the question at the reliable sources noticeboard. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:02, 12 April 2020 (UTC)) and as for using primary source WWE.com, on certain circumstances to prove verifiability they can be used and they are not allowed mainly when they are used for promotional purpose, but the usage of primary source is allowed when used in a positive way, check: Wikipedia:Use of primary sources in Wikipedia. So please don't go blindly removing WP:RS. Thank you. Dilbaggg (talk) 19:01, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them" and "Note that primary sources make no exception to the general rules regarding sources (WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NOR,...) before they can be used as a source in Wikipedia. That are basic requirements, not further discussed in, nor modified by, the current guideline (proposal). This guideline concentrates on how to use primary sources most appropriately in Wikipedia." (The bold writing isn't my statement, its what the guidelines are and I pasted here). Primary Sources can be used when there are no secondary sources at all. Again WP:RfC is kindly requested. The current status of the article is a sourceless article based on WP:OR which is pure violation of Wikipedia guideline, and WP:OR is a bigger issue than Wp:Primary, and if you have problem with WP:Primary it is your job to bring the secondary Wp:RS to the article instead of leaving it as contents with no source, citations, WP:V whatsoever. But you do not care as long as it fits your personal agenda do you? Regardless I am not that concerned with WWE Music Group discography, I will leave it to senior editors on WP:RSN as per ANI suggestion to see if you are Wikipedia:Gaming the system or not. But I will go on protecting The Streak (wrestling) and don't go accusing me of not explaining when you say things like "I won't bother to read" as you did on the talk page there. Dilbaggg (talk) 03:49, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wednesday Night Wars GA nomination

Requesting help in further improving the quality of this brilliant article to make it suitable for GA nomination. It is sufficiently well sourced, neutral and well written article and a hot topic in modern day Professional Wrestling World. It has way more credibility than the short lived and less impactful and poorly sourced TNA Impact!'s move to Monday nights which still got GA nominated. The Wednesday Night Wars and the rise of AEW as the first serious competitor to WWE since WCW is perhaps the most significant thing in the modern pro wrestling world, this fact is acknowledged even in the TNA Impact!'s move to Monday nights and the original Monday Night Wars with fitting WP:V. Also this article demonstrates genuine neutrality when comparing AEW and NXT and is created based on sufficient and credible WP:RS and WP:V. So yeah I feel this article should be GA nominated. Dilbaggg (talk) 16:24, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll have a look here sometime today, but I already see one glaring issue that plague's this project: one-sentence paragraphs in the lead. --JDC808 ♫ 18:46, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The relative notability of other articles has nothing to do with if this article should be GANed. There's a lot of issues with the article, mostly the poor lede, and no real comparisons between the two promotions. It does need quite a large copyedit as well. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:36, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

List of Special Episodes

I don't intend this to be negative, or a slight on anybody who has put in effort on these articles, but I don't understand the point of articles titled "list of BLA BLA BLA special episodes". Beyond the episodes being on at a different time, or on a different day, or having a theme, or a 55 year old referee debuting, 99% of these special episodes are not remotely special. Oh, a scripted general manager was filmed spinning a wheel to make a scripted match? Fantastic. The episode was the 700th episode? So what, 700 isn't a special number!

However: TV series have "List of TV SHOW NAME episodes" - List of The Wire episodes, List of The Shield episodes, List of Seinfeld episodes etc. But as we all know, these are TV programmes with finite life spans, and therefore finite episodes. If you had every single Raw episode in an article... that's ridiculous!
So: we look at the fact professional sports teams have "YYYY-YY CLUB NAME season" - 2020–21 Salford City F.C. season, 2020–21 Torino F.C. season, 2020 Atlanta Falcons season, 2020–21 Detroit Pistons season etc. No matter what sport, no matter where in the world, a professional sports team is notable enough to have this kind of article. Salford City will play 54 games this season (fingers crossed). Basketball teams and hockey teams play 82 games in a regular non-playoff season. I see no reason there couldn't be a List of 1993 WWE Raw episodes, List of 2020 AEW Dynamite episodes, List of 1996 WCW Nitro episodes, etc. showing certain details of the 52/53 episodes in a calendar year. Lists of special episodes just seems too WP:OR, and any special episode should have its own Wikipedia page anyway, providing it passes WP:NOTABILITY.
Let's take a look at how it could be done, by using this Good Article as an example - 1998–99 Manchester United F.C. season. You've got the lead, where it describes the major moments, and incoming and outgoing players (debuts of major wrestlers). You've then got the written prose for each month - not too long, not overly detailed. As long as only major storylines for each month were mentioned, and key title changes. There would be no need to mention every time Billy Gunn got his arse out or everytime the Dudleys put somebody through a table. Then you've got the match results featuring details like date, location, attendance. Add in match results in a collapsible table. Replace "transfers in/out" with something applicable to wrestling (debuts/departures). Providing its sourced correctly, this is all doable. ItsKesha (talk) 23:04, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Help with Kevin Greene

If anyone can help improve the sourcing for Kevin Greene (American football) regarding his WCW tenure, I would appreciate it. There are many wrestling-specific sources out there and I have no idea about the reliability of any of them. Thanks. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:40, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Muboshgu: I will take a look tomorrow. If you want, we have a list of reliable sources here --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 23:33, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've added some content and sources. McPhail (talk) 15:30, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Luchas de Apuestas

Why on earth does any American wrestler have a Luchas de Apuestas record? If this is inexplicably included for an American wrestler, why not have their Hell in a Cell history as well? Buried Alive or inferno? Why not have their history at WrestleMania or Slammiversary or Starrcade too? Their Royal Rumble record, or their history in an Elimination Chamber? Masks are huge part of Mexican wrestling, and mask removals are major parts of a lucha libre's career. But in British wrestling it's not a huge deal, nor in American wrestling, or in Japan, or Germany, or Canada. The part about "luchas de apuestas" is literally just a subsection of an article titled "Lucha Libre". Kendo Nagasaki wasn't a luchador, Kane wasn't a luchador. Kurt Angle and Edge, who had a hair versus hair match because Angle was losing his hair, weren't. Big Van Vader, who took his mask off countless times during his matches, definitely wasn't. ItsKesha (talk) 19:13, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So? They had a Lucha de Apuestas and we include a section for a Lucha de Apuestas, not for a Hell in a Cell. I don't see why the nationality is important. Our MOS says "A record of the wrestler's Luchas de Apuestas ("betting matches"), prominent in lucha libre, is compiled in a table format. It spans the match winner (with their wager), the loser (with their wager), the location, the event, the date and a column for additional notes. Matches should only be included in this list if at least one of the competitors is risking their mask or hair." No mention of nationality, just that the wrestler risks his mask or hair --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:21, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your examples: Nagasaki, Kane, nationality doesn't matter. Angle, the reason behind the Lucha de Apuestas isn't relevant, they had a Hair vs Hair match and Angle lost (similar, La Sombra lost the mask because he wanted to sign with WWE). Vader vs Kane had a mask vs mask match, so it's a match (mystario also lost the mask and put it on the line several times). --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:31, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The manual of style you've quoted from literally says it's prominent in lucha libre. Mexican wrestling! Of course the nationality is important, otherwise it would simply say "prominent in wrestling". And you've not explained why it's even included other than saying basically "we include it because we include it", and vice versa for any other match/situation I mentioned. ItsKesha (talk) 21:20, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Matches should only be included in this list if at least one of the competitors is risking their mask or hair" Again, no reason to exclude no-Mexican wrestlers just because the Lucha de Apuestas is more common in Mexico. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 22:49, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry but you've not actually answered the question. Why is this thing deemed so important as to include it on all articles, regardless of cultural importance or lack thereof? ItsKesha (talk) 12:02, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The consensus, based on discussions within the project, is to include LdA records. Anyone wanting to change this would need to establish a new consensus. GaryColemanFan (talk) 15:51, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So... any thoughts Gaz? ItsKesha (talk) 16:20, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming you're addressing me, then yes, I think that anyone wanting to change the existing consensus would need to establish a new consensus. GaryColemanFan (talk) 18:49, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So do you have an actual opinion on the matter Gaz? ItsKesha (talk) 22:52, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming you're addressing me (and, if so, I would appreciate that you don't make up nicknames for me), then I would say that, if you are wanting to change the existing consensus, you should open a discussion that puts forward your points in a calm and coherent manner. GaryColemanFan (talk) 01:35, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So that's a no then Gaz? Thanks for your time... ItsKesha (talk) 03:02, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Again, if you are addressing me, you may refer to me by my full name or by the shortened forms Gary or GCF. Your manner of addressing me comes across as condescending. Perhaps you were unaware of how your words are being received, but I trust you will avoid unwelcome nicknames now that you are aware of the situation. As for my opinion on the other matter, you are welcome to open a discussion that puts forward your points in a calm and coherent manner. GaryColemanFan (talk) 06:08, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Howling at the idea that calling somebody called Gary "Gaz" is condescending. But thanks for again making no attempt whatsoever at answering the question posed. ItsKesha (talk) 11:30, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Would appreciate some actual input on this, rather than completely unnecessary stonewalling. Just why is this thing deemed so important as to include it on all articles, regardless of cultural importance or lack thereof? ItsKesha (talk) 11:30, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Because [2] iT rEaLlY iS tHaT sImPlE, ItsKesha. starship .paint (exalt) 11:52, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Star, thanks for dropping by. I assume you've also tagged in Gary Coleman for making exactly the same edit summary, three times? Do you have any thoughts on this matter, by the way? ItsKesha (talk) 12:36, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, I have not, and at this moment, I do not, ItsKesha. starship .paint (exalt) 12:47, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The tone of your comments here are not conducive to gaining a consensus ItsKesha, be careful. As stated above, if you would like to change the MOS, you need to gain consensus. I don't really see how that is hard to conceive. It makes no sense to me to disclude this information based on nationality. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:21, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Lee. I haven't once mentioned consensus, I've not stated I'm trying to change a consensus. I'm simply asking some straightforward questions. As I've already said, masks are huge part of Mexican wrestling, and mask removals are major parts of a lucha libre's career. But in British wrestling it's not a huge deal, nor in American wrestling, or in Japan, or Germany, or Canada. Why not also have their history at WrestleMania or Slammiversary or Starrcade too? Their Royal Rumble record, or their history in an Elimination Chamber? Why is this thing deemed so important as to include it on all articles, regardless of cultural importance or lack thereof? 4. ItsKesha (talk) 12:36, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

shame that tone clouds the message here. It is a matter of consistency really, while not AS important outside of Mexico it's still a fairly permanent outcome (Kurt Angel's hair comes to mind) and it was the general consensus of those who participated in the discussion that it should be included. MPJ-DK (talk) 01:15, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Danny Hodge

This wrestling legend passed away yesterday. I've added a couple of references, and the article looks like it's close to ready for RD--just a few more references needed. If anyone has some time, it would be great to see this posted on the main page. GaryColemanFan (talk) 17:32, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I just saw that Brodie Lee has also passed away. I can't find a mainstream source for it yet, but it looks like his article would also be very close to ready for RD. GaryColemanFan (talk) 01:51, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's on RD now. TRM opined that Brodie would be worth nominating for WP:GA], if anyone wants to do it. starship .paint (exalt) 11:18, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]