Talk:Asmahan

Voice characteristics

I've removed this section on a number of grounds. For one, it's entirely WP:OR. This isn't the place to reproduce or summarize Zuhur's writings, and certainly not in this length. Things like "Too much pressure (chest resonance technique) will deprive the singer from using a lot of dynamics as he will lose all the pianissimo and the bridge between the head and chest voices will be very difficult, not to mention that the legato line singing will be impossible and that the vocal range will shorten where the head register becomes weak" have no place in this article. If you look at other featured class articles on singers, there is no section like this. It's pure WP:FANCRUFT meant to extol and glorify Asmahan. We're supposed to remain neutral here, and this section violated that. Phrases like "Asmahan's voice was so powerful that despite her heavy singing she was still able to use her head register and sing in a very controlled tone, even along a very demanding high pitched musical line with a very impressing and elegant Legato" are anything but neutral. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 05:02, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

No objections here. I thought its was awkward but I wasn't bold enough to remove it ;) --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:05, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Text

Asmahan

Author Sherifa Zuhur has analyzed Asmahan's vocal contributions as well as providing all of the biographical details noted above. As Zuhur writes, Asmahan's voice ranged from the low contralto timbre all the way up to the upper Soprano range. This is demonstrated in the composition "Ya Tuyur" (O Birds, where her voice mimics a songbird) in which she reaches a high A with ease and brio. Asmahan was able to combine in her vocal abilities, the special characteristics of of three oriental divas' voices -- Fairuz, Umm Kulthum, and Sabah -- each quite different in tone, style and interpreation. Like Feiruz, she could render angelic tones, and she was able to use something close to the bel canto technique, among the first to adopt the western (old Italian school of singing) which contrasted to the the nasal and chest resonance technique that reigned in Arabic vocal style of the time. This was so, even though Asmahan's voice differs from Feiruz' in that she was really both a mezzo-contralto (alto) and a mezzo-soprano. Feiruz could reach high notes yet with less power than Asmahan. Asmahan showed a wide range of dynamics ranging from pianissimo to fortissimo from the bottom to the top of her range. Her voice also resembles Umm Kulthum's, not in timbre, but in the styling of those songs she performed which were written in "lawn tarab" -- or classical coloring. Finally, her vocal capacity was a bit like the singer Sabah, who had a powerful voice, and likewise utilized folk "coloring" and and who could "belt" out a song like a Broadway-style singer. Asmahan often showed phenomenally long breaths, both in long moving cadences, and where she held a high note for more than one minute.

Too much pressure (chest resonance technique) will deprive the singer from using a lot of dynamics as he will lose all the pianissimo and the bridge between the head and chest voices will be very difficult, not to mention that the legato line singing will be impossible and that the vocal range will shorten where the head register becomes weak. On the other hand the head voice technique (typical of the Western classical and operatic singing) will eliminate any chest resonance so the voice will become too sweet or artificial and consequently lose all the power and dramatic capacities required for the oriental Tarab genre

Asmahan's voice was so powerful that despite her heavy singing she was still able to use her head register and sing in a very controlled tone, even along a very demanding high pitched musical line with a very impressing and elegant Legato (the vocalization) as in the afore-mentioned " Ya Tuyur," by Mohamed El Qasabgi and in a light color of voice (reaching a high A=LA) then return to sing the medium notes and reach the low register with the typical Arabic (nasal+chest) technique. Besides the fact that she was the first Arabic singer to use the classical western technique, very few performers are able to alternate two opposed styles of interpretation and technique in one song.

Asmahan also displayed vocal agility -- an ability to switch between various musical notes in one musical sentence (like Fairuz) and she was a fast study, as noted by Zuhur.

Discussion

I'm not sure why Diaa posted this text here, but it's not getting in the article - at least, not in its current form. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 13:38, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Annyong you answered the question. I posted it here and not on the article because in the current form it can't be posted there. :) --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:42, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Source problems in Early Life

I'll list here any problems I find with the sources or the refferences in the Early life section. The section is crucial for her identity.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 23:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC):

• "The al-Atrash clan is a notorious Syrian Druze family, known for its role in the Syrian Revolution and the resistance against the French mandate of Syria in the 1920s."

1. convert the reffs to use the {{citation}} template?
2. this is a teritary source (http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshua.M.Landis-1/Joshua_Landis_Druze_and_Shishakli.htm) could u reff the book? it has a limited preview on google books that shows the page.
3. I can't find how it's described in the reffs as notorious. Could u please further explain that?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 23:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

• The Al Atrash clan section is unreffed. I might have removed a reff when restructuring, but the reffs need to get back there. (might be "Enchantment 81" "Secrets 37-38 and 98") but direct inline citation of those is needed for verifiability.
• "They finally arrived in Egypt where they were naturalized later on." ("Enchantment 81" "Secrets 37-38 and 98") "This needs more details, I removed it for now though. Naturalization is easily research able as it is documented by official papers. "Later on" Should be specified.
• "Asmahan and her family were later naturalized as Egyptian citizens."(alquds.co.uk) same here.
• "Immigration to Egypt" section needs some reffs.

Diaa, thanks for your work on the article. For the purpose of academic integrity, we cannot attribute the "Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career and Arab music would have missed out on her talent entirely." statement to Sherifa Zuhur. I had composed this introductory statement to the paragraph, and the facts in the paragraph, clearly and without exception, converge back to it. I am not in favor of starting paragraphs with a plunge into a series of facts with no common thought. I see that many of the sections in the article now need similar introductory statements. Just an element of style. Cheers, --Arab Cowboy (talk) 23:50, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

---

Diaa.

• This: http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshua.M.Landis-1/Joshua_Landis_Druze_and_Shishakli.htm is put togheter by professor Joshua Landis who is an expert on Syrian politics and middle eastren history. The word "notorious" means known or well know, of course this can be changed to "famous" or something else, but the role of the Al-Atrash clan during the Syrian Revolution is will known. For example in the book (The Great Syrian Revolt) http://books.google.com/books?id=Ej8ZMk1822sC&pg=PA72&dq=sultan+al+atrash Sultan al-Atrash is on the cover and the Atrash name is mentioned on almost every page.

• The refs for the Atrash clan was there before and has been deleted, the refs are as following: Asmahan's Secrets,pp. 37-38 and 98 and Images of enchantment, pp.81

Yes could these be added inline? When u use page 37 it should be reffed there and not all pages at once.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

• The naturalized "later on" is important because it says in Asmahans Secrets p 98 that "Asmahan had not become an Egyptian citizen early on" and then the author talks about soem problems.

The question is when she did get the citizenship. That's the main issue, cause where would this fit in the article?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, I noticed that you moved and kept this section, and also added "according to Shefa"Accoding to Sherifa Zuhur, Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career and Arab music would have missed out on her talent entirely"

This is false, Shefa has not said this, the reference is on page 82-84 in Images of enchantment, there is nothing there saying this, this is written and made up by AC, If you want to keep this section you should replace the first line to "Accoring to Arab Cowboy"

And also this false statement AC implanted is still in the article "Asmahan had not actually lived in the Jabal in childhood; she had spent those early years in the family's residences in Lebanon and Turkey and only been to the Jabal for visits."

This is what the sources say: Asmahans Secrets on page 36: "Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carefree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s."

Nothing is said about that she never lived there.

In asmahans secretes page 36 it also says that they had a large stone house with a servant, and also on 36-37 the explanation of here mothers and hers escape from the Jabal after the Adham Khanjar incident: http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 And on page 81 in Images of enchantment it is written that the family returned to the Jabal, and she left after the problems with the french. http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Images+of+enchantment

The sentence implanted by AC is false and no source show that she "did not live there". --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:35, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I gave a shot at that, you can check the atrash clan section.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Closing the matter

Could supreme and Arab Cowboy propose a two paragraph Lead to be considered for the article. Information in the lead has to be reffed and available in the article body. That's why the body needed work before a lead can be created. Currently the fact that she's Egyptian isn't elaborated in the body. She lived in Egypt, had her musical debut there, had her career there, but if she's Egyptian or not isn't clear. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 23:43, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa,

Are we going to keep the reference to Asmahan's "homeland," be it Syrian or Egyptian? I thought we had agreed to refrain from using this word. If so, I will have to expand on this issue. Also, I find the Identity section is a bit strange. I am not sure that it is necessary; I do not see other biographies having a similar section. However, if you would like to keep it, I will have a lot to say there too. We also need to bring the Voice Characteristics section back; it just needs a lot of work. I can work on it gradually cause my time is limited.

As for whether she was an Egyptian or a Syrian citizen, I gather from the sources that neither Egypt nor Syria allowed for dual citizenship at the time. It is a documented fact that she became an Egyptian citizen before marriage to her cousin, Hassan. It appears that she regained Syrian citizenship on remarrying Hassan, not during the first marriage, because the sources say that, in 1941, the British instructed her to not enter Syria illegally, and she was only able to enter Syria legally when Hassan went to the border to receive her and she entered Syria as his bride (second marriage). I also gather from the sources that this is when the Egyptian government attempted to withdraw her citizenship on the grounds of dual nationality, and that, faced with this choice, she left Syria and returned to Egypt, married to Ahmed Salim, to reclaim her citizenship.

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that this would be original research. Saying that there was no dual citizenship in Egypt, therefore she is Egyptian is Original Research which isn't allowed on Wikipedia. If you could create a paragraph that incorporates facts and dates saying when and how she became an Egyptian citizen I would agree to this. However in the article it isn't clear that she ever became one. So please state this below with proper references.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:51, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, this is not what I said. Please see below in new section created by yourself. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 12:43, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

This newspaper is very controversial and shouldn't be a main source of her citizenship. This has to be stated in one of Zuhur books or any other books regarding Asmahan. According to http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exzuhasp.html neither Asmahan nor her mother applied for the Egyptian citizenship. I therefore suggest to look for a direct source of her citizenship.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa,

I do not see how the Al-Quds Al-Arabi newspaper could be "very controversial"; please clarify. Articles from established newspapers are considered reliable sources by Wikipedia. On the other hand, the statement in Sherifa Zuhur's book is not clear-cut and speaks only of a certain point in time. Zuhur's actual statement in Asmahan's Secrets, p.14, was "Alia apparently did not apply for Egyptian citizenship under Law 19 of 1929, nor did Asmahan," which is a clear guessing game on the part of Zuhur. I have also noted previously that Sherifa Zuhur took great liberties with statements in her book, such as labelling Nagat al-Saghira as Syrian, although both of her parents were Egyptian citizens (I can prove that to you later). Also, Zuhur has been challenged on many fronts, at least here.

Published books are not any more reliable than respectable newspaper articles. This has been proven at least once before when SD introduced a statement from a book citing Omar Sharif's birth in Greece, when in fact Omar Sharif's own autobiography states that he was born in Alexandria.

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:14, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

"Due to its strong criticism of the Arab regimes and their perceived obedience to the U.S. & Israel, the paper has been censored and sometimes temporarily banned in Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Syria." This is my main concern. It's banned in Egypt and Syria. Question is why this isn't stated in another source? I mean why her citizenship isn't stated in a reliable book or scholar source.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 14:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

You have answered your own concerns, the newspapers has been censored, etc., "due to its strong criticism of the Arab regimes...," and not due to journalistic inaccuracy or unprofessionalism. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:30, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Arab Cowboy we have now two conflicting sources. One wrote three books about the subject, the other wrote a one page article in a newspaper. Both have been criticized about things not relating to the subject. One says she was naturalized, the other says she wasn't. Could u please find a reliable source that states that she was an Egyptian citizen? You can't put an analogy to the Omar Sherif case where both were books and one of them was weighed due to it being an autobiography.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 14:37, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, please take a long pause at the word "apparently" and the date in Zuhur's statement above. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:43, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

---

This is my answer to ACs post at the top:

"Are we going to keep the reference to Asmahan's "homeland," be it Syrian or Egyptian? I thought we had agreed to refrain from using this word. If so, I will have to expand on this issue. Also, I find the Identity section is a bit strange. I am not sure that it is necessary; I do not see other biographies having a similar section. However, if you would like to keep it, I will have a lot to say there too. We also need to bring the Voice Characteristics section back; it just needs a lot of work. I can work on it gradually cause my time is limited. As for whether she was an Egyptian or a Syrian citizen, I gather from the sources that neither Egypt nor Syria allowed for dual citizenship at the time. It is a documented fact that she became an Egyptian citizen before marriage to her cousin, Hassan. It appears that she regained Syrian citizenship on remarrying Hassan, not during the first marriage, because the sources say that, in 1941, the British instructed her to not enter Syria illegally, and she was only able to enter Syria legally when Hassan went to the border to receive her and she entered Syria as his bride (second marriage). I also gather from the sources that this is when the Egyptian government attempted to withdraw her citizenship on the grounds of dual nationality, and that, faced with this choice, she left Syria and returned to Egypt, married to Ahmed Salim, to reclaim her citizenship. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)"

Answer: Homeland is where you and your family come from. Now lets see what Asmahan thought where her homeland was: page 36 and 37 in Asmahans Secrets: http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 This is direct copy from the sources: "Later in her life, Asmahan always refferd to her relative, Sultan al-Atrash, along with her father, to assert her lineage and status, and to substantiate her ability to act for the British. She told a friend, "Dont you know who I am? Why I am the daughter of Fahd al-Atrash and cousin to the Amir al-Atrash and the Druze Revolutionary hero Sultan al-Atrash"

On Page 36 in Asmahans Secrets it sais: "Quote: "Still, it was the Jabal Druze that imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather then her familys residences in Turky and Beirut"

On page 19 it says "Syrian homeland"

AC says "Egyptian government attempted to withdraw her citizenship on the grounds of dual nationality, and that, faced with this choice, she left Syria and returned to Egypt, married to Ahmed Salim, to reclaim her citizenship."

Now this is very interesting, this is the exactly same thing Neefer Tewty said (surprise surprise) above and I have showed was false. Last post in this section: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Asmahan#Identity_Section --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:35, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I thought my question was addressed to Diaa, not SD. SD has stated the above gibberish over and over again. I am not interested in replying to it unless Diaa states that "homeland" is "on the table". --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Suggested lead by Arab Cowboy

Asmahan (Arabic: أسمهان Asmahān; birth name: Amal al-Atrash; born: October 25, 1918 at Mediterranean Sea; died: July 14, 1944 in Nile River, Egypt) was an Egyptian singer and actor belonging to a princely Druze family of Syrian-Lebanese origin. Having immigrated to Egypt in childhood, she became the apprentice of Egyptian classical music pioneers, Dawood Hussnei, Mohammed al-Qasabji and Zakariyya Ahmad. She also sang the compositions of Mohammed Abdel Wahab and her brother Farid al-Atrash, a then rising star musician in his own right. Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum. Her mysterious, untimely death by drowning at the age of twenty-six drew speculations about tribulations in her personal life and an espionage role in World War II. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 06:28, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Suggested lead by -Supreme Deliciousness

Asmahan (Arabic: أسمهان Asmahān; birth name: Amal al-Atrash; November 18, 1918 – July 14, 1944) was a Syrian/Lebanese singer and actor. She was the sister of Farid al-Atrash, and a member of the al-Atrash clan, known for its role in the Syrian Revolution and the resistance against the French mandate of Syria in the 1920s.

(This last sentence can be rewritten so it wont be the same as in the rest of the article, and of course fell free to expand)

Sources for this is in the body text, I can ad it later if needed directly behind the sentences. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:35, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

This is really funny! As if Asmahan never set foot in Egypt, became an Egyptian, adopted Egypt as her homeland, and did all her life's work in Egypt. As if this article is about "al-Atrash clan," and not about Asmahan and her contribution to Arab music, without which she would have been another obscure bedouin in the mountain! Good luck with that. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:03, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

"another obscure bedouin in the mountain" This is a racial attack against druze people. And there you are predicting the future again. As all sources show including quotes from Asmahans mouth, Syria was the only homeland she had. You are just spreading lies everywhere as we can see not only here but on other articles also: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Past%C4%B1rma&diff=302954933&oldid=301429858 --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I will not be drawn into the "homeland" debate unless I receive a greenlight from Diaa. And, no, I am not in business of predicting the future, because unlike what you claim to be, I am not "Supreme Allah". --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:21, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Preferred Lead

I prefer Arab Cowboy's lead, as it gives most of the important info about Asmahan. However I suggest using Syrian-Egyptian singer. She got the Egyptian citizenship, something that is agreed on by the two parties, and she's Syrian living her early life in Suwayda and being born to a Syrian father who was the governor of Suwayda. I'll add it to the article for further discussion.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:48, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

We must not forget her mother, Syrian-Lebanese-Egyptian ?

I question the relevance of having this in the lead, specially the authenticity of it,the source is a blog which I believe is against wikipedia rules:

"she became the apprentice of Egyptian classical music pioneers, Dawood Hussnei, Mohammed al-Qasabji and Zakariyya Ahmad. She also sang the compositions of Mohammed Abdel Wahab and her brother Farid al-Atrash, a then rising star musician in his own right. Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum."--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, I will not object to your choice of a Syrian-Egyptian label, on the grounds of citizenship only, and not chosen identity. The rest of that sentence will have to be omitted. On these grounds, reference to her mother will have to come later in the body of the article. On the basis of chosen or actual identity, my originally proposed sentence should stand. Just a correction, sources have shown that she did not live her early life in Swaida and her father was not the governer of Swaida. See Zuhur, p. 36. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:06, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

This is what the sources say: Asmahans Secrets on page 36: "Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carefree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s." Nothing is said about that she never lived there. In asmahans secretes page 36 it also says that they had a large stone house with a servant, and also on 36-37 the explanation of here mothers and hers escape from the Jabal after the Adham Khanjar incident: http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 And on page 81 in Images of enchantment it is written that the family returned to the Jabal, and she left after the problems with the french. http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Images+of+enchantment The sentence implanted by AC is false and no source show that she "did not live there" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I already corrected that sentence. No need to go back there again.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:13, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure what is unclear abour Zuhur's statement: "She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s." This clearly means that not only did she not live there, but she did not even spend much time there at all! She only went there for "visits". Yes, they had a house in Swaida, that 'Alia stated was not her house, but her husband's, as they did in Lebanon and Turkey, where they actually lived in the early years of Asmahan's life. P. 38: "Alia never felt comfortable in the Jabal." P. 39: "...the Jabal, which was not her home, but her husband's." How is this not clear? Or, are we reinventing the wheel and the English language? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

"This clearly means that not only did she not live there" - no it doesn't, it means that she didn't spend much time there, not that she didn't live there. you are twisting facts to fit your agenda. ""Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carefree period." Yes Alias home was not the Jabal she was from Hasbyia in Lebanon. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:46, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

In terms of tone, I have a problem with the lead as it stands. The line "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum." really has no actual meaning. It's not something that is discussed anywhere in the article. I would much prefer something that mentions how she was actually influential to Arab music. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 22:46, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Not only that but other sections are made up by Ac himself, this for example: "Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career."--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:50, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I thought about removing it, but it chalks that up to Sherifa Zuhur. I've marked that with a fact tag until we can get a source there. Saying things like "undisputedly" is certainly WP:POV. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 22:56, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, there are still problems with the lead, this is sourced from a blog, which is against wikipedia rules: "she became the apprentice of Egyptian classical music pioneers, Dawood Hussnei, Mohammed al-Qasabji and Zakariyya Ahmad." and also, what relevance is the nationality of some of the people she worked with to be in the lead of the article? This is the usual edits by AC to ad "Egyptian" as much as he can everywhere as we also can see in other articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Past%C4%B1rma&diff=302954933&oldid=301429858 --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:54, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Egyptian citizenship

Arab Cowboy please create here a paragraph explaining how she got her citizenship.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:53, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The only clear-cut statements about the sequence of Asmahan's citizenship(s) are found in a reliable source, London-based newspaper, Al-Quds Al-Arabi. The source states: "وحصلت الأسرة علي الجنسية المصرية وظلت تنعم بها ومنهم اسمهان بالطبع الي أن تزوجت من ابن عمها الأمير حسن الأطرش فاستعادت الجنسية السورية" which can be translated to "The whole (migrant) family were granted Egyptian citizenship and continued to enjoy it, including Asmahan of course, until she married her cousin Prince Hassan al-Atrash and regained her Syrian citizenship". Sherifa Zuhur states in Asmahan's Secrets, p. 118, that "[Asmahan's] instrcutions were to refrain from crossing the (Syrian) border illegally." One could only cross a border illegally if he/she was not a citizen of said country! Zuhur then states that Hassan would agree to allow Asmahan to cross the border only as his bride. The Al-Quds Al-Arabi article also states: "ثم التقت بعد طلاقها الثاني بالممثل والمخرج الفنان أحمد سالم في فلسطين وتزوجا وكانت رغبتها الأساسية استعادت الجنسية المصرية" which can be translated to "and after her second divorce, she met with actor and director Ahmed Salim in Palestine and they were married, and her primary objective was to regain her Egyptian citizenship."

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 19:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Zuhur's actual statement in Asmahan's Secrets, p.14, was "Alia apparently did not apply for Egyptian citizenship under Law 19 of 1929, nor did Asmahan," which is a clear guessing game on the part of Zuhur. "Apparently" expresses doubt or guessing. Zuhur does NOT state that Asmahan was NEVER naturalized. Note: According to Zuhur's footnote to that statement, 'Alia and her children did not qualify for Egyptian citizenship in 1929 because they had not been in Egypt long enough. Egyptian law requires 10 years of residency for naturalization. The Atrashes had arrived in 1923, so in 1929 they had been in Egypt for only 6 years. By contrast, the newspaper article casts no doubt about Asmahan's Egyptian citizenship. I also have other sources that speak of Asmahan's Egyptian nationality, but they MAY not meet Wikipedia's standards on reliable sources. According to this (arguably unreliable) source, "They got the Egyptian nationality in the beginning 30s." I must also emphasize what I have said before. Citizenship is only one source of identity for a given person. Other sources, besides lineage, are their choice of belonging, and, in a case like Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash's, their contribution to the society in which they chose to live, i.e., their Egyptian Arabic singing portfolios. I think that spending any more time on this point would be an over-kill! --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:36, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

The dates in the different sources conflict with one another on many issues and it is very difficult to pinpoint the sequence of events with accuracy. For example, one source states that her first marriage to Hassan occurred in 1933 (she was 15), while other sources state the marraige occurred in 1937 (at age 19); that her musical debut was at age 14 and her first Columbia Records album was agreed at age 16. The second sequence of events makes more sense; this is not original research. Most sources agree that she lived in Syria for a total of 6 years (some sources say only 3 years), which agrees more with the dates: from 1937 to 1939 or 1940, and then from 1941 to 1943 or 1944. Again, the "6 years split in two" scenario makes more sense; it is not original research.

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 12:56, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

"Makes more sense" is inherently original research. By evaluating what the sources say, you're drawing a conclusion that's not specifically stated there. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 14:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Annyong, why don't you come up with facts that are agreed by ALL the sources? There is none, and if we rely on those alone, we will have no article. "Makes more sense" does not mean original research, but means giving more weight to sources that provide the preponderence of evidence. Or, is it your job to only criticize, judge, and support statements misquoted from the sources? You have done no leg-work at all and your remarks just crowd this page unnecessarily! --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I have just as much a right to speak up here as you do. In cases of conflicting data, the best way to handle it on Wikipedia is to mention that there are multiple possible stories, and mention both. If it happens to be that all sources say one thing and only one source says another, then the lone source can usually be tossed out as fringe. What's the count on the two differing theories? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 14:47, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I am not taking away your right to speak up here. But your last question makes my case! Why don't you do some homework and get us this count, as opposed to just act as judge? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Because I have neither the time nor the energy to work on this right now. You're the one who's already done all the research and has all the information. I'd urge you to assume good faith and realize that I'm just trying to make this page better than it currently is, and based on my current schedule, this is the only way I can do that. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 15:01, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Annyong, as you may recall, I assumed good faith in you when you were first invited to this discussion by SD. Unfortunately, your own actions proved me wrong. You supported SD's misquoting the sources, and his ridiculous sock-puppetry allegations. Moreover, you brought similarly unfounded allegations of your own and you were proven wrong. Why did you not assume good faith in User:Nefer Tweety? Your actions have stifled NT's voice on this page and probably elsewhere as they have expressed to you, and we may have lost NT for good. Have you apologized to NT since you were proven wrong? You state that you have neither the time nor energy to do research work, yet you find the time to judge, criticize, and waste my own time with your actions. Unfortunately, you have made no substantive contribution at all to this effort and have not made this page any better. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:00, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I thought we've turned a new leaf here and tried to move forward. That's what this is all about, moving forward. Can you maybe put aside our former issues and go from here? Let's also point out that you've driven Supreme Deliciousness away from here. I've moved past whatever happened before and am starting fresh. You and Diaa clearly know what's going on, and are more knowledgeable on the subject. But I'm still allowed to look at the text that is inserted - or will potentially be inserted - and comment on it. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 16:39, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, I will start fresh with you, Annyong, and will assume good faith one more time. I do not think I have driven SD away, although that would not be a bad thing. He's still harassing me on other articles, lol. Do you mind moving this distracting exchange away from this Talk page, to your Talk page or mine, as it serves no purpose here? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Just leave it, it's not a huge deal. I think it speaks to what has transpired on this page in the past. But the new conversation should start below. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 18:02, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

To clear things: Supreme Deliciousness wasn't driven off. He is currently a bit busy but will return later to reply to the questions and comments.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 18:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Frustration

Well, the matter is getting harder and I'm a bit frustrated. I lost track of the issues you currently have and would like some clear cut statements of what each party wants. I don't need proofs or discussions. State one sentence in the article that you want changed then place your suggested change. I'll review it and comment or add it. Please don't fight and don't comment on each other's suggestions. I hope to get this done before the weekend.

Arab Cowboy's suggestions

Diaa, I restored the lead that had been agreed before my absence. I do not agree to the changes that have been made since. The lead should contain concise summary statements of each of the sections in the articl"e.

Infobox": Asmahan (Arabic: أسمهان Asmahān; birth name: Amal al-Atrash; born: October 25, 1918 at Mediterranean Sea; died: July 14, 1944 in Nile River, Egypt) was an Egyptian singer and actor

"al-Atrash Clan" and "Immigration to Egypt": belonging to a princely Druze family of Syrian-Lebanese origin. Having immigrated to Egypt in childhood,

"Musical Debut" and "Egypt's Influence": she became the apprentice of Egyptian classical music pioneers, Dawood Hussnei, Mohammed al-Qasabji and Zakariyya Ahmad. She also sang the compositions of Mohammed Abdel Wahab and her brother Farid al-Atrash, a then rising star musician in his own right.

"Voice Characteristics" (will be added later when fixed): Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum. Although the original reference is from a book of at least 4 volumes (Um Kalthoum / Oum Kalsoum - Anthologie de la Musique Arabe 1931, Volume 4 - FLAC/320), although shown online in what seems to be a blog, I added NT's reference from Zuhur's Asmahan's Secrets.

"Personal Life", "Role in WWII", and "Death" Her mysterious, untimely death by drowning at the age of twenty-six drew speculations about tribulations in her personal life and an espionage role in World War II.

This is the way things should go... Again, this article is about Asmahan and her music, not the al-Atrash clan. There are other articles in Wikipedia about the clan. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 04:55, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Three people - myself, SD and Diaa - have agreed that the Umm Kulthum thing should not be there. (Diaa removed it here.) There are a number of reasons, one of which is that blogspot is not a reliable source. But you'll see that all you really did was undid Diaa's edits, and at this point, all you're doing is going against the consensus. Also, you changed her birthdate in this edit - why did you do that? I didn't think that was up for debate. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 05:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

In fact, Diaa had agreed that the Asmahan's Secrets, p. 85 ref that had been provided by NT was a reliable source. What Diaa last said about this matter was "Well then, add the reff and if possible add the rest of missing reffs.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)". Two other editors, NT and myself, did not agree with the removal of the Umm Kulthum statement. So what consensus are you talking about that you and SD have reached in my absence for two days? The birthdate in the infobox was conflicting with the date in the lead. The date in the lead was backed by the al-Mada newspaper reference and that in the Infobox was backed by IMDB, not considered a reliable source, so I made them to match the reliably sourced date. Why don't you ever do a good job checking the sources before editing? (Ok, this time, the source is in Arabic so I won't hold it against you.) --Arab Cowboy (talk) 05:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

My objection isn't just about sourcing; it's that having a statement like that in the lead is really awkward. The lead should be about a person's life, not about comparing them to someone else. And you wouldn't see that sort of thing in the lead of a good article. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 14:22, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Annyong, Umm Kulthum was the "Gold Standard" of Arab music against whom all other singers have been compared. On a scale of 1 to 10, Umm Kulthum was a 10. Only Asmahan could be rated at 8-9. Fairuz is probably 7-8. I cannot think of others who even passed a 5. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Why is your rating of Arab singers relevant to this article? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 14:28, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

This is the Talk page, not the article. I am providing you with a rating so you would understand where things fall in Arab music. Of course, this is my own opinion and is not article material. The relevance is your objection to the Umm Kulthum comparison. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:36, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

The following statements currently in the article should be deleted. They are either of NO VALUE or IRRELEVANT to an article about Asmahan. The al-Atrash clan have their own article in Wikipedia and most of these statements would fit better in that article.

1. "Her father was married twice and had two children before marrying 'Alia al-Mundhir." IRRELEVANT

Is related Asmahan's half brothers and sisters, shows her close relatives, stays.

2. "She also had an older brother, Fuad, and a sister and brother, Widad and Anwar who both had died at a very young age." NO VALUE

Is related to the environment Asmahan grew up in, stays.

3. "Fahd suggested naming her "Bahriyya" (meaning "of the sea" in Arabic), but her mother objected and decided to name her "Amal", meaning "hope"." NO VALUE

Very interesting and has a proper reference, stays.

4. "Fahd was later appointed as a judge in Suwayda." IRRELEVANT

Relevant to why Alia and her family could be targeted, stays.

5. "The al-Atrash clan was a Syrian Druze family, known for its role in the Syrian Revolution and the resistance against the French mandate of Syria in the 1920s." IRRELEVANT

Bad start sentence, their role is relevant for their fleeing, has to change.

6. "Fahd sent his cousin Salim al-Atrash to bring her back together with his kids. After receiving Fahds message 'Alia told him that the only way her children would return to Suwayda was if he killed her, but that Fahd in return would be cursed for the deaths of their children, who might be killed of the fighting in Suwayda. Salim gave her all the money he had, thinking she would eventually return when the chaos would end in Suwayda." NO VALUE

7. "`Alia's husband threatened to divorce her if she did not return to Syria. 'Alia refused and was therefore divorced." NO VALUE

Well this is very important. I don't see how you could say that. It's referenced in the Asmahan's Secrets book, SD should reff that... In any case this would leave a blank point as to what exactly was the relationship of Alia/ Asmahan and her husband/father. stays

• I don't exactly understand what you want changed in the lead now. Please summarize it and get to the point of what you want changed.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 20:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Where did I say that I want the lead changed? I want it to stay as is. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:44, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Supreme Deliciousness suggestions

Diaa, I thank you for your work and patience. You have helped a lot and I think we are done soon.

But some things have to be addressed.

• The first line in the article I want it to say she is Syrian-Lebanese. Her mother was lebanese, and there is no solid proof she got Egyptian citizenship and even if she did this happened a long time after she emigrated there, as proven above. And as have been showed many times the quote from Asmahans Secrets page 37: "Later in her life, Asmahan always refferd to her relative, Sultan al-Atrash, along with her father, to assert her lineage and status"

Suggestion "was a Syrian-Lebanese singer and actor belonging to the al-Atrash clan"

Sorry Supreme Deliciousness but we discussed this and there is no doubt that she got the Egyptian citizenship. You yourself said "The naturalized "later on" is important because it says in Asmahans Secrets p 98 that "Asmahan had not become an Egyptian citizen early on" and then the author talks about soem problems." so she did get naturalized... I will not debate this anymore. It has to be mentioned in the lead. Syrian-Lebanese is doubtful as there is no proof that she got the Lebanese citizenship. There is proof that she regained the Syrian citizenship, so SD she is Syrian-Egyptian or "Syrian Singer who had her entire career in Egypt and was naturalized there".--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• I would also like this expanded to the Farid al-Atrash article, a man born in Syria, to Syrian-Lebanese parents.

So it says: "Farid al-Atrash (Arabic: فريد الأطرش; born: October 19, 1915 in Suwayda, Syria; died: December 26, 1974 in Beirut, Lebanon) was a Syrian-Lebanese composer, singer, virtuoso oud player, and actor belonging to the al-Atrash clan.

Same here, he got the Egyptian citizenship. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, how about both of them Syrian-Lebanese-Egyptian? If not then I ask you to change the lead to the Farid al atrash article to: ""Farid al-Atrash (Arabic: فريد الأطرش; born: October 19, 1915 in Suwayda, Syria; died: December 26, 1974 in Beirut, Lebanon) was a Syrian-Egyptian"--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:57, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Done--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:01, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• "she became the apprentice of Egyptian classical music pioneers, Dawood Hussnei, Mohammed al-Qasabji and Zakariyya Ahmad."

This I want deleted, the source for this was a blog, There is no evidence she was the apprentice for these, and I also question the importance of adding the nationality of some of the people she might have worked with in in the lead of the article, this is the usual edits by AC to put the word "Egyptian" as much as he can everywhere as we also can see in other articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Past%C4%B1rma&diff=302954933&oldid=301429858

removed--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• "Accoding to Sherifa Zuhur, Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career."

This I want deleted, Sherifa has not said this, this is guessing by AC himself and has no place in an encyclopedia.

removed--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum. "

Must be deleted, has nothing to do in an encyclopedia.

removed--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• "Asmahan only remembered this period as happy and carefree childhood.[9] She spent most early years in the family's residences in Lebanon and Turkey and only been to the Jabal for visits.""

This is not following what the source is saying which is: Asmahans Secrets on page 36: "In her late twenties, Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carefree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s. Still, it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather then her family's residences in Turkey and Beirut"

My suggestion to the article: "Later in life when Asmahan spoke about her childhood in Suweida, she remembered it as a happy and carefree period, although she did not spend much time in the Jabal, it was what she saw as her "home" rather then Lebanon or Turkey"

done--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• "In 1941, during World War II, Asmahan was asked by the Allies to go to Syria"

In the WW2 section, a very important trigger word was deleted by AC, I want this word returned to the article so it says: "In 1941, during World War II, Asmahan was asked by the Allies to return to Syria"

done--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• "popular prime minister Saad Zaghloul"

Popular? this should be deleted. What relevance is it if he is popular or not? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

done--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• "and in Egypt, she remained for the rest of her short life." reffed from page 99, but in the book after page 99 it continues to speak about her return to Syria during WW2.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:01, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

This section should be rewritten and merged into the rest of sections anyway. I'll see later what I can do. till then add {{clarify}} next to the reff. And please continue reffing the article.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 18:17, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

HelloAnnyong's suggestions

Don't know why I didn't get a section here, but here's my take.

• "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum." - This line needs to go. Aside from being wholly unsourced and not covered by the text in the article, it's just not particularly relevant. And for someone who has no idea who Umm Kulthum is, it means nothing.
• There should be a line or two about how she contributed to Arab music. The lead should mention why she was notable, and being the apprentice of some guys and singing in competitions doesn't really make me think that she's all that important. But she clearly is important (at least, enough to keep two editors battling about her for months) so there should be something that points out why she was so notable.

Just my take on this. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 12:53, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry HelloAnnyong for not putting a section for you. Not a big issue... I agree to both your comments. I think SD and AC can take care of the second point. My brain is currently fried because of this long and exhausting discussion.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:54, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

That's alright. You've done an exceptional job here. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 16:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

HelloAnnyong, anyone who knows anything about Arabic music, should know who Umm Kulthum is!!! And the fact that she is hyperlinked should be enough for others. Contrary to what you think, I believe it is important as Umm Kulthum was and is the frame of reference. You should understand that "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum." actually helps make people get the idea of how IMPORTANT Asmahan was. --Nefer Tweety (talk) 20:35, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

You know, Wiki articles aren't just for a small group of people. They're read by people around the world who have varying levels of knowledge on a subject, and the articles need to be accessible to all. To that end, it's restrictive to write an article that makes references that only a small group of people will understand. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 20:47, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Where is the source for "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum." ? It was a blog. This kind of statement has no place in an encyclopedia.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:51, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

You are right, that is what hyperlinks are for! --Nefer Tweety (talk) 21:01, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

"This song made such an impact that Asmahan's artistry "began to shake the throne of Umm Kulthum" write Al-Sharif. Al-Sharif describes the "rivalry" of the two artists, Umm Kulthum and Asmahan, at a purely vocal level- in the potential, the range, musicality, and the interpretive skills Asmahan possessed surpassed those of other voices with the sole exception of Umm Kulthum." Page 85 Asmahan's Secrets http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA85&dq=asmahan+%22umm+kulthum%22 . In case you still do not get what I meant above, this is a huge compliment to Asmahan and a measure of her talent. --Nefer Tweety (talk) 22:28, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Well then, add the reff and if possible add the rest of missing reffs.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

note, page 85 is not viewable in the link. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:58, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

That's nice. It's still adding way too much undue weight to what is a relatively minor point. If you want to actually show how she came to take on Umm Kulthum, put it in the actual text of the article and se sources. Don't just randomly insert these grand, sweeping points that don't actually say anything of substance. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 23:11, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

after some google quote searching I can confirm that this sentence is indeed on page 85: "This song made such an impact that Asmahan's artistry "began to shake the throne of Umm Kulthum" I can not see the whole page but something is written on the page about a rivalry. Still, should it even be in the article or lead? considering the points HA mentions above.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:47, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, I am sorry, I do not know enough about the "citation template" and I find it a bit confusing to add references to the main article. I'll leave editing the article to anyone else. It's enough for me to follow what's going on here, on the Talk page, and give my opinion only if I feel I have something valuable to add. __Nefer Tweety (talk) 14:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Supreme Deliciousness please replace the citation needed templates

Supreme Deliciousness I humbly ask you to replace the citation needed templates on the article. Please don't remove anything if you can't find the source just leave it there for later consideration to be removed. Thank you.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:05, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Remove the blog

Arab Cowboy, Remove the blog reff please. It doesn't follow Wikipedia's guidelines. Is it reffed on Asmahan? If yes then SD leave the sentence and AC add according to some critics...--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:01, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

This part is in AS page 85, "This song made such an impact that Asmahan's artistry "began to shake the throne of Umm Kulthum" write Al-Sharif." The other parts I can not confirm until I get exact quotes. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:10, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Well this would be enough. So SD take care of it, reff it and add it to the lead. This is probably what makes her notable. There are by the way allegations that Um Kalthum was the one who ordered to kill her.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:15, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Ill ad it if you want but are you sure that a sentence like that should be in the lead of the article? "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum." What does this say to a normal reader who have no idea who Umm Kulthum is? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:20, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Add "known as the Arab world's most famous and distinguished singer of the 20th century." Umm Kulthoum with the propper reff tag. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:44, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, I would like the "lead paragraph" reinstated as it was before Annyong reverted it ealier today. Sources do not have to be online to be reliable. The Anthology did not have to be online and p. 85 of Asmahan's Secrets does not have to available for SD's viewing to be acceptable. All statements in the lead were accurate and agreed before my absence for 2 days. Please see my input in the Arab Cowboy's Suggestions section above as well as on your Talk page. Also, please remove the redundancy in Farid's lead paragraph that SD brought back. Please also note that there's an Atrash family branch in Egypt to which Faysal al-Atrash now belongs. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:53, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

All statements in the lead were not accurate and agreed, sources have to indeed be provided, and I question the need of mentioning a long list of people in the lead of the article who no one knows who they are, and calling them Asmahans "apprentices" without any sources. Also there is no Atrash branch in Egypt. One or a couple of people is not a branch. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:48, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

They were not Asmahan's apprentices, she was theirs. You do not even know what the word means. "Apprentice" means student, from the French "apprendre", i.e., to learn. What's wrong with that? It's even used on Farid's page, and not by me. All the names of the musicians in the lead were hyperlinked, so there's no need to redefine them. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 10:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The info in the lead of the article must be the most important info in it, and shortened. That she was the apprentice of a long list of people who no one knows who they are is of no importance to be in the lead of the article, If it is sourced, it should be later in the article about her career where it belongs.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:03, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Please fix reff 5 to have a citation template. Add reffs to the lead, cause it seems otherwise the fight is never gonna end. AC I thought you were working on her Voice characteristics... Her being an apprentice of those should only be added if it has a good reff and not to the lead. Let's first finish this off then go over to Farid Al atrash. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 11:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, I have posted my comments to you both here and on your Talk page; I am not sure what else to do to get your attention. You seem to be overlooking my suggestions while approving all of SD's demands in my absence. Why did you change the lead in Farid's page if you were not yet ready to go there? Please restore it to what it was last week until we finish Asmahan. Also, please review my suggestions on your Talk page. I will work on the Voice Characteristics section when my inputs to date have been incorporated or at least sufficiently discussed. I disagree with removing the statement about her apprenticeship from the lead. I can provide references to it if necessary, but removing it leaves the lead missing a summary statement about Egypt's influence on her singing career. I realize that you are overwhelmed with several articles, and I thank you for your efforts so far. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 12:00, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

all recent changes to the Farid article are small and things that have already been agreed upon here. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:03, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

agreed upon by whom, if I was absent for 2 days? mediation that listens only to one side of the case is not considered agreement! --Arab Cowboy (talk) 12:08, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

So what radical changes here do you not agree with? http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Farid_al-Atrash&diff=304090036&oldid=299860104 and what of them are not already in the Asmahan article?--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't see anything that was agreed upon that you would be against AC. If you find a good reff for the apprentice thing we can add it to the lead. Till then though, please fill the citation needed templates.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 12:25, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, to name just a few examples, we had avoided using the term "homeland", and I have complied with that, but you seem have to have let it go for SD. I would not have agreed to deleting all those statements from the lead, that you had stated was your preferred lead, in a section under that heading above, prior to my absence. I would not have agreed to changing "go" to "return," because this is not what the source says. People do not "return" to a place for a spy mission, especially after having spent virtually all their life in another. I would not have agreed to the redundancy in the lead statement, both in Asmahan and Farid. What does it mean to call someone, let's say SD, Supreme Deliciousness is Syrian and belonging to the Syrian Deliciousness family? This is redundancy on an unprecedented level! I would not have agreed to starting work on Farid until we were done here, cause that article too still needs a lot of work and the lead there needs to reflect what will be in the article. Changes there should reflect agreement on that Talk page, not here. I agreed to labelling Asmahan as Syrian-Egyptian because of suggested evidence that she might have held that citizenship for some time as an adult. What evidence do we have that Farid regained Syrian citizenship at any time in adulthood? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 12:42, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I think we agreed at the beginning that homeland was not to be used. This has been removed from the article. I preferred your lead in contrast to SDs not because it's a good lead. It's a start for a lead. Any statement that isn't reffed with a Reliable source will be removed. I will start doing this in the next hour. So please reff anything that you want to stay. Changing go to return on the spy mission makes sens because it's in relation to her being there before and having good influence on her People. I suggest not working on Farid at all till we get there later. Still most of changes that were made are improvement to the article. I started on SDs statement because it was the first listed. He had comments that show WP guidelines violation and I acted therefore on them. I'll review your statements and see what can be done.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:09, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, You removed more then just "homeland" you also removed "returned", I ask you to change it to "So she returned with him to Syria"--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

We have to go with what the sources show, not what AC wants it to be, what does the sources say? Sherifa Zuhur says in AS page 19 "Syrian homeland" Asmahan also makes statements about her lineage, her Syrian father and Syrian Sultan Pasha. Asmahans Secrets on page 36: "In her late twenties, Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carefree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s. Still, it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather then her family's residences in Turkey and Beirut" He first agreed to your lead instead of mine, but this doesn't mean he agreed to exactly everything in it. Things changes. Dont be silly, the sources are saying that she did live in Syria before several times, and you know this, just because the exact line about her mission to Syria did not use the exact word "return" doesn't meant it wasn't what she did. Because both Faird and Asmahan were half lebanese, the Atrash family is a Syrian family. Farid was born in Syria to a Syrian father = he is Syrian.

A lot of the things we have talked about here are the exactly same things for Farid al-Atrash, we do not have to go through everything one more time over there. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, one hour is not enough. Please give me until this time tomorrow to reference the statements that I wish to keep. Thanks for removing "homeland". I think you should also remove the "home" reference, because (a) I think SD is misunderstanding Zuhur's statement, and (b) there are a lot of other statements referring to Egypt as her home. Do we want to go there? I will be gone for half a day or so, so please do not expect a reply from me immediately. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 13:48, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The statement shows that Asmahan saw Syria as her home as opposed to Turkey or Lebanon. I don't see how that clashes with the idea that she was Egyptian or Syrian. I'll give you a day for the reffs. I hope SD also collaborates on that matter.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:53, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, but I read the statement as Asmahan not having lived in Syria in childhood, but went there for visits only. Actually other sources (arguably not reliable) show that she lived that time in Turkey and Lebanon only. In any case, I will respond to that later. Thanks for the time extension till tomorrow. Please restore Farid to last week's version until we start working there. We have not agreed anything on Farid yet and I do not want to start any edit wars there. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:02, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Then I advise you to visit an optician for the statement from AS says, direct quoted: "In her late twenties, Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carefree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s. Still, it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather then her family's residences in Turkey and Beirut" nothing here says that she didn't live in Syria in her childhood, actually the section says that she did live in the "the mountains of the Druze" in her childhood. The only thing it says is that she didnt spend much time there.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:21, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Consensus not by votes

Just a reminder that consensus isn't reached by votes. It depends on good and sensible arguments. Cause in the case of votes it would be easy using proxies to just reach own consensus :) .--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:24, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Very well said Diaa. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:26, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

yeah, it seems that Annyong and SD have reached consensus on their own during my absence. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:02, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Who killed asmahan book

I'll try to buy the book "Who Killed Asmahan" (http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/386770414&referer=brief_results) and improve the article for factual accuracy. The book was release in 2009 and reveals many secrets of the past.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:49, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

That would be good. Are you located in Egypt to be able to buy it? I know it's a personal quetsion and of course you are free to disregard it. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:02, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Yep, live in Egypt.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 14:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa are you Egyptian?--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, am Egyptian....--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 14:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok I bought the book, it has a CD with it with all of her songs, probably gonna upload those...--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:36, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Um, be sure you check the copyright on that. Read WP:NFC#Audio clips. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 16:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I think her songs are PD as they are collective works published more than 50 years ago (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-Egypt-1996). Collective because it was by an writer and a singer published by a legal entity (Publisher).--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:05, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Just as a side comment, I have been listening to Asmahan for the last month or so throught this editing process; have always been a big fan of hers and Farid's. But over the last couple of days, I switched to Umm Kulthum for a change. While I prefer the "sweetness" in Asmahan's voice, as a matter of personal taste, Umm Kulthum's performance is clearly superior. She hits all those difficult notes so easily that it appears so effortless and leaves her in full command, as compared to Asmahan's and Farid's "straining" to do so. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:16, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Emily

Her name was Emily in her French passport.. :) --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:54, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

problems with sources

This section: "This marriage, too, was short-lived, perhaps because Asmahan wanted financial freedom. On her way back to Egypt by land, Asmahan met Egyptian film director Ahmed Salem in Jerusalem and they were married and together they returned to Egypt. By remarrying Hassan, Asmahan had regained Syrian citizenship, and it was alleged that on these grounds, the Egyptian palace wished to strip her of her Egyptian citizenship"

Has a blog as a source.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:03, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

side note, this source: http://www.alquds.co.uk/index.asp?fname=2008\05\05-23\21m25.htm&storytitle= the nr 3 source currently in this article says that Asmahan was born in 1912 on a boat heading from Greece to Turkey.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Urgh, good catch. Livejournal is never a reliable source. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 22:31, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

trustworthy source? This sentence: "It was also alleged that Asmahan entered into the marriage with Salim to maintain her Egyptian citizenship." has the link above as a source ,the same one saying Asmahan was born in 1912.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:27, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Conflicts

It seems that on every single thing that is added there has to be a conflict. The article is very high need of expansion and the two of you just fight about the smallest word that is there. I have to admit Al Quds is deemed a reliable source. It is a public newspaper written by journalists and is therefore reliable. I've been away for a while working on some other things. I guess again please post your problems below and don't write 2,000kB explaining why you're right and the other is wrong. Just write something you want somewhere changed or added and I'll comment. Please don't fight again and I don't get why you posted on the Administrator's noticeboard which does one of two things: Block a person or Edit protect the page which are both not of your interest. Please withdraw the complaint. HelloAnnyong your input is very welcome and I'm happy that you're still with us..--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:53, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Glad to be here. I'm pretty sure your pleading here is going to fall on deaf ears. This is just one of many articles where SD and AC have been battling; Soad Hosny, Omar Sharif and Farid al-Atrash are also points of contention for them. Of course I would love nothing more than to see the fight end here, but after watching this for many weeks, I just don't know... — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 15:12, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Not just those, Annyong, but also Baba Ghannouj, Debke, Qatayef, Kunafah, etc. He thinks he has a Syrian monopoly on all of these things. He clearly hates anything Egyptian and would rather see Omar Sharif labelled as Greek rather than Egyptian, for example. Just ANYTHING BUT Egyptian. He feels that Egypt is the enemy of Syria, just like Israel is. It was an uphill battle to convince him that Qatayef is just as Egyptian as it is Levantine, for example, or that the people of al-Arish view the dabka as their folk dance. He feels that everyone is out there to steal whatever LITTLE culture his country has had to offer; this is what he makes it look like. He's so jealous and envious of Egypt, and has been the most childish and selfish individual I've ever had to deal with. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 15:36, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

"He's so jealous and envious of Egypt, and has been the most childish and selfish individual I've ever had to deal with." - and this is why we have conflict. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 15:38, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

childish and envious he says, this is coming from someone that deleted that Sulaf Fawakherji is a Syrian actor, yet added "Egyptian" infront of every single Egyptian person she ever met in her life in rest of the article. This is coming from someone that deleted that Omar Shariff parents were Lebanese and that Soad Hosny has a Syrian family background. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:50, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Sulaf has never met Asmahan. You are lying again, I have not deleted Omar Sharif's Lebanese-Egyptian parenthood (notice you started out calling him Syrian, and when that didn't work, Greek, then Lebanese; anything but Egyptian is your goal) or Soad Hosny's Syrian family background on her father's side. Check the articles to see your own lies. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:17, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, what SD says above is untrue, as usual. My edits were all legitimate and have improved the article. SD had edited the article during my absence and you have given the greenlight to improve the article before I started my edits. I have posted for you, above, in the "Arab Cowboy's Suggestions" section the statements that had NOT been agreed and that I would like removed (as you had done with SD's requests in my absence: done, done, removed, removed,...). Please review and delete them as necessary. Other than those listed above, all edits that I have made to the article had been over-killed with discussion on the Talk page. SD's addition of "Syrian" to describe Sulaf is not relevant to the article and opens the door to listing the nationalities of all the actors in the series. This is not the place for that. None of those actors had any influence on Asmahan or her music. Maybe SD should list the sourced information, that is of any relevance to Asmahan and her music, and that he alleges that I removed? I do not see a reason to withdraw the complaint for as long as he still wants to roll back the article to July 25th after all the work I have done. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 15:36, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

All AC edits on wikipedia can bee seen here, all of them: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Past%C4%B1rma&diff=302954933&oldid=301429858--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:47, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Good for you, SD. You're obviously lying again because I have made a couple more edits than this one, and when you showed a source that this was a Turkish recipe, I left it alone without any fight. I have lived in Syria and Lebanon, and pastirma there is so thick and hard to chew that you wouldn't even want to put it on your car tires. Even the sellers would tell me that it was preferrable to cook it first to make it edible. It cannot possibly be made the same way as in Turkey and Egypt, where it is eaten as cold cuts. No wonder, people from the Levant stock up on pastirma during their visits to Egypt and carry it back with them. Plus, there's a separate paragraph for Lebanese pastirma in that section, so what else do you need? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 15:51, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I can also add that "all of SD's edits" can be summed up by examples of what other editors say to him:

"I hope you are banned from Wikipedia soon for your comments on this and many other pages. You are a disgrace to Wikipedia (if not the human race)."--Gilabrand (talk) 09:52, 11 June 2009 (UTC). Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Za%27atar#Israeli_culture_theft

and

"Please understand that this is an encyclopedia. Statements must be supported by verifiable sources, opinion is not enough. Edits that are aggressive, highly political attacks on particular ethnic and national groups are not welcome here. And please try to read up on a topic before you edit. Your assertion that is is somehow illegitimate for a nation to adopt a foodstuff Za'atar is absurd. And your assertion that the Druze are not Arabs because they are not genetically Arab is not merely ridiculous, it is borderiline racism. Historicist (talk) 03:21, 16 June 2009 (UTC) Historicist (talk) 11:56, 16 June 2009 (UTC)". Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Supreme_Deliciousness#Settle_down

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:06, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Just so all are aware, I've warned Arab Cowboy about personal attacks, following their comments above. Such person attacks are against Wikipedia policy. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 18:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Annyong, you are continuously proving yourself to be SD's puppet, so your warnings are worthless. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 18:25, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay, well, that's your opinion. Personal attacks are personal attacks, and they're not allowed. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 18:28, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

And, you can go to the original authors of those statements above for questions about personal attacks, not me. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't care about background

I completely and utterly don't care about the Backgrounds of any of you two. If we did that then many of the admins would be banned for starting with unreffed edits then improving over time. Again you started fighting.... Could u please stop fighting?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:47, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Alright, Diaa, fair enough. I have posted for you, above, in the "Arab Cowboy's Suggestions" section the statements that had NOT been agreed and that I would like removed. Please review and delete them as necessary. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 17:58, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Will review...--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:19, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

On topic posts only

Diaa, thank you for not leaving and giving up, I thought we had lost you. Now I will write my problems with the page, but first I must know from what page are we gonna start working from. Everything that I have wanted to change, delete or ad, I had to go through the talkpage as the mediation process was, on the 26th, AC did massive changes to the article and deleted several sourced sections without going through the talkpage, is this fair? Now are you gonna put me in a situation where I have to fight this uphill battle one more time? Is this fair to me? I am asking you to take the article back to any date of the 25th so we can start from there, and if Arab Cowboy wants to do any of these changes he forced on the article, he would have to go through the talkpage, like I had to do. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:09, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Will Review...--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:19, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Currently there are many reverts and changes to the point that I lost the positive/negative or controversial changes AC did. If you could show me some specific changes I can revert them till further discussion. I find what AC did with changing everything without even respecting my input shows much disrespect to my instructions, which was part of my decision to abstain from any mediation for a while. AC, I reviewed what SD said and added with my own edits what I saw as facts. I couldn't see how you would have objected to any of them. I wasn't biased at all and opposed some suggestions and agreed to others. I told you to add reffs before I remove all unreffed stuff to clear things. You added more than reffs. Some are good edits, others are controversial. In any case I hope such changes and editwars wouldn't occur in the future and hope AC and SD get along some day, since both are interested in the same articles.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 20:49, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Tags

I've readded the OR, refimprove and fansite tags. I'm mostly referring to the Voice Characteristics section, which I still believe is heavily skewed. The Death section is also wholly unsourced. Do not remove these tags until these issues are taken care of. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 20:09, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Annyong, what is "readded"? and why did you truncate the VC title? In which direction is it heavily skewed? It is based entirely on Zuhur's Images of Enchantment? Please be more specific so your concerns may be addressed. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I re-added the tags back to the top of the page. I truncated the Voice characteristics title because "Song Delivery" has no real meaning; it's just there to be fancruft and extol Asmahan a little bit more. And the fact that it's based solely on Zuhur's book troubles me. One, it should use multiple sources; two, it shouldn't just be a paraphrasing of what's in the book; and three, it's skewed in the direction of making her out to be the greatest singer ever. "She gained stature through sensitive and successful emotional interpretation as well as musical delivery of various phrases – which often implied a deep understanding of emotional states." is utter fluff and has no value to an encyclopedic article. I'd remove the section, but I won't unless other people (and not just SD) agree with me. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 20:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)