Talk:Flag of Antarctica

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Untitled

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 12:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Talk:Flags of Antarctica — Flags of Antarctica → Flag of Antarctica – The title is left over from when the article was about the design proposals shown in the pictures on the page. Keeping in line with all the other articles on flags, the title should have the singular "Flag" instead of the plural "Flags." Since Flag of Antarctica has more than one edit, this page cannot be moved without an administrator's help. PBP 00:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support, for consistency with other articles. Jll 21:39, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move it back?

I'm not quite sure why the move discussed above was carried out. PBP states that: "The title is left over from when the article was about the design proposals shown in the pictures on the page." As far as I can tell the article is still about those, with the addition of a section on territorial flags. There is no one accepted 'flag of Antarctica', so the title is misleading, and shouldn't necessarily be consistent with other flag articles because the situation isn't the same here. There are several flags connected in some way with Antarctica, so 'flags of Antarctica' would seem the appropriate title. Anyone want to move it back? 86.136.1.31 20:21, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Flag of Antarctica / Antarctic Treaty

According to Flags of the World, the Antarctic Treaty DOES have a flag and that it's used as the official emblem of Antarctica. [1] [2] I think that we should change File:Flag of Antarctica.svg; the current flag is just a proposal (ok, it's widely used) but at least the dark-blue flag of the Treaty has some official characteristics. --B1mbo (talk) 17:45, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Another one can be viewed at the Antarctica Overseas Exchange Office website, what is it?--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 11:56, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Territorial flags section

I restored the Territorial flags section. Unless there's something I'm missing here, it's removal was overkill. A {{unreferenced section}} will do.

These aren't refs, but here are the Flag of the British Antarctic Territory, and Flag of Magallanes articles. Also the List of Argentine flags article includes info on the Tierra del Fuego flag, and it's the flag the Tierra del Fuego article itself shows. File:Flag of the French Southern and Antarctic Lands.svg is used all over WP, including in the French Southern and Antarctic Lands article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk • contribs) 02:19, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Plain white flag?

I've a recollection of seeing a plain white flag used to represent Antarctica. One such instance is The Usborne Book of World Geography where it gives the highest mountain on each continent. I think I might have seen it somewhere else but I can't remember, but I don't suppose this book is the only place it's ever been used. Can anyone provide some insight? — Smjg (talk) 21:26, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Dave Hamilton Flag?

I noticed the Dave Hamilton proposal recently reappeared on the page, but I'm not sure it's noteworthy enough to be included here. I know it's mentioned on the FOTW page, but I haven't encountered any evidence that it ever flew as a flag. The original issuers of the souvenir "dollar bill" it was originally printed on have since removed it. I've deleted the flag from the page for now, but I'd love to hear others' thoughts. Since there are hundreds of Antarctic flag proposals, I think it's important to establish a threshold for what's included and what's not. Federalwafer (talk) 15:27, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

FOTW is run by volunteer editors (not unlike this wiki). I would not consider it to meet WP:RS.Garuda28 (talk) 18:01, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

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Template:Country data Antarctica (seeking flag consensus)

Currently, the Country data Antarctica template and related templates (i.e. Template:Flag and its derivatives/transclusions, etc) use Graham Bartram's design as the main flag for Antarctica with Whitney Smith's design listed as the "alt" variant (this flag is not even currently listed on the main article here, which brings into question notability), although currently it appears the "True South" flag is the only one which is formally recognized by members of the Antarctic Treaty System. There have been two attempts to reach a consensus at Template talk:Country data Antarctica in which either no other users participated or there were no objections lodged. As such, I want to see if I can get a consensus here for one or more of the following changes:

• Changing the main flag under Country data Antarctica from Bartram's flag to the "True South" flag per its status as more officially recognized
• Removing Whitney Smith's design as "alt" variant due to lack of use
• Instating Bartram's flag as "alt" variant due to its representation as the main Antarctica flag emoji in several operating systems, as well as possibly using the flag of the Antarctic Treaty System as another variant with the identifier "ats".

Also pinging @Garuda28 and Federalwafer: due to their participation in a prior discussion above. HapHaxion _{(talk / contribs)} 21:26, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

I support that Garuda28 (talk) 22:40, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

I also support that. Federalwafer (talk) 02:27, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you both for the input! Do any other users have any further comments? @Smjg posted a message a few years back on the talk page here, do you want to add anything? HapHaxion _{(talk / contribs)} 16:40, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Hmm. As much as I think Whitney Smith's design deserves credit, that it's been removed from the article on at least two occasions suggests that that there are doubts as to its notability. On this basis, it probably shouldn't be one of only two flags given in this template.

We can't deny that nobody runs Antarctica and as such it has no official flag. But if we need one, True South is the best one to use on the basis that it's officially recognised. As such, I'm inclined to agree with your first two proposals. But I'm not sure about the third one, as Graham Bartram's design doesn't appear to have any official status with the ATS or any other organisation. Hmm.... — Smjg (talk) 10:04, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree with your concern about the Bartram flag,@Smjg:. I don't know if there's a protocol on this, but looking around not all flags on country data templates seem to be official (e.g. Template:Country_data_Martinique). Federalwafer (talk) 22:47, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

That's true. But that isn't to say Graham Bartram's design is necessarily the best unofficial one to use. One might argue that the ATS flag is a better choice. But then again, I can see a possible counter-argument that the ATS flag represents the international agreement concerning the chunk of land rather than the chunk of land itself. So I'm not settled one way or the other now. Let's see what people think. But the ATS flag ought to be included in the template one way or another. — Smjg (talk) 13:21, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

RFC on main flag used in the country data template

Which flag should be the main one used in Template:Country data Antarctica (Antarctica)? Should we continue using the current "True South" flag ("Option A"), or revert to the previously used Graham Bartram design 🇦🇶 ("Option B")? Update: As many editors have !voted to Avoid using flag icon templates for Antarctica entirely, I am adding this as a third option.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:08, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

• Option B + avoid using flag icon templates for Antarctica entirely as nominator (see below for the second half of this !vote). There's next to no sourcing for the True South flag. There are four sources cited to claim that it's being used: one of them is a real article which interviews the designer about the process of coming up with the flag (which is fine but doesn't verify the claim that it's being used), one of them is a Facebook link, one of them is an Instagram link, and one of them is a scam website that tells me I'm the five billionth user and I won a prize. I'll be deleting that one from the article immediately. The other sources for the true south flag include a verbatim copy-paste of the interview article on a different website and the True South flag's own website. There's not even enough sources to establish notability, much less establish that it's the one we should be displaying to all readers. There was very little discussion before changing it to the True South flag aside from claiming without sources that "it is more officially recognized" and that it's "the only one formally recognized by members of the Antarctic Treaty System." There is not a single source verifying that any institution — much less any nation of the ATS — officially recognizes the novel True South flag in any capacity. Reverting to the more verifiably used Bartram design seems like the best thing to do here.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:08, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option B since it appears to be the mostly widely used. I've personally only seen Option B as the flag before. Aaron Liu (talk) 04:08, 21 July 2022 (UTC) Option A as True South seems to be more widely used per discussion below. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:27, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
• Avoid using flag icon templates for Antarctica entirely. There is no official flag. The use of a flag next to Antarctica in contexts where national flags appear is inherently misleading. Flag icons are overused anyway and I do not think the guidelines on appropriate and inappropriate use (MOS:FLAG) are met for Antarctica. In particular, it would be misguided to think that consistency or something demands that a table with national flag icons next to most entries automatically needs to have a flag icon next to every entry. Almost all uses of the Antarctica flag icon template are in such tables/lists. Adumbrativus (talk) 07:33, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

• I agree that it's largely unnecessary to even have a flag icon template for Antarctica, but this might imply a deletion discussion of Template:Country data Antarctica, which is probably out of the scope of this RfC. For better or worse, there are a lot of instances of this template on the encyclopedia, and it's best that this template doesn't display to readers an obscure and largely unsourced flag design.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:18, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

  Sorry, I don't mean to get in the way of the original and well-posed RfC question – discussion should continue. (For what it's worth, I concur with the point that the claims of official or formal recognition for the "True South" flag seem to be misleading and lacking in a verifiable basis.) In the bigger picture I think recommending the removal of uses of the template in mainspace is the best outcome, and while that doesn't answer the RfC question, it's relevant to the RfC in the sense that it would leave the RfC question without much practical significance anymore. Currently there are 269 mainspace uses (WhatLinksHere) which is non-negligible but not too many either. (Even small island countries' flags have an order of magnitude more uses.) I have no real opinion on what people do with it in userspace or other namespaces; it doesn't necessary have to go to TfD and it could be deprecated from articles only. Adumbrativus (talk) 06:49, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

• Avoid using flags in Antarctica templates entirely. There is no official flag and it is misleading to use an unofficial one in this way. Celia Homeford (talk) 09:22, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
• Option B No Antarctic flag of official, but none is so widely known as this one. AnneDant87 (talk) 02:03, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
• Option B. The flag is critically symbolic of the continent of Antartica. If any flag should be used, and it should, the blue and white flag is best. SWinxy (talk) 02:49, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
• Option A Please refer to the consensus reached in the section above. Several sources about the use of True South were deleted in a reversion between that discussion and this one, but I restored them. True South does seem to be promoted, but it is still the most widely used and officially recognized flag according to any sources I could find. Federalwafer (talk) 01:33, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  While ref 15 is a good source, I couldn't find where it says that True South has been used by National Antarctic Programs, Antarctic nonprofits, and expedition teams. If this claim was validated and no further issues arise I'd switch to option a. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:22, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  For the sake of accuracy I'll mention that the sources you've added are different from the ones I've removed, and most of the new ones are better quality. The ones I removed were social media posts and a scam website. Ref 15 is good, but this is currently the only one that mentions the flag flying anywhere in Antarctica, so I still feel that it's far too early to come to the conclusion that this flag is the most widely used, and it's still not correct to state that it has been "officially recognized."  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 02:37, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

  @Aaron Liu There are two mentions, one in the text: "So far, the flag has been quite successful, too, adopted and flown by various camps and research stations." and again in the audio version around the 45 minute mark where they say "It was actually really quickly adopted by various Antarctic nonprofits and expedition teams, so it's already been flown in camps and research stations and by fans around the world who've never even been to Antarctica."

  @Vanilla Wizard There are some new sources, but the reversion I was referring to was the one on 15 July. I agree with most of the deletions you made. Source 1 lists some of the countries that have adopted it-- Bulgaria, Turkey, the Czech Republic-- and has photos of it at the French and Colombian stations. Source 14 is from the USA Antarctic Program and shows the flag at the South Pole. Federalwafer (talk) 12:19, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

That source does in fact say "Several countries [...] have adopted it", but it unfortunately only briefly states this without describing what this means. Does it mean that a decision was made on behalf of the Bulgarian Antarctic Institute as an example to officially recognize the flag? If it simply means that researchers from Bulgaria flew the flag, then this is still a good indication that the flag has been used, but I wouldn't word that as "Bulgaria adopted it" and it wouldn't be any more remarkable than any other time that any other flag was flown at a research station in Antarctica.

Source 14 is good, that definitely is the True South symbol on that marker, though it also mentions that a new marker is designed every year, so I'm curious to know if previous markers have resembled other proposed Antarctic flags. The markers used in 2015, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2004, and 1997 featured the outline of Antarctica, but it'd be OR of me to assume that's an intentional reference to either the Antarctic Treaty System or Bartram flag (although those two are almost the same design and the design of both is just the map of Antarctica). Still an interesting fact worth keeping in the article.

I do appreciate that you've added a lot of quality sources verifying the notability of the True South flag, but I'm still on the fence about displaying it as the main one. If the metric for "being recognized" is "being flown by researchers", then it would be very untrue to say that the True South flag is the only one that has been recognized, as the same could be said about all of the others. It's also the case that the ATS flag is the closest thing to an "official" design given that the ATS is a binding agreement between nations governing human activity on the continent, while the Bartram flag remains by far the most commonly recognized one and is used as an emoji on all platforms. So I have to say that I don't support edits that modify the lede to only mention the True South flag and phrase it as if it's the "only officially recognized flag." We should either mention none of them or all of them in the lede. There is evidence that in recent years the True South flag's popularity and use has increased, this is true, but what is not true is suggesting that this is the only flag design to have received "recognition."  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 18:21, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Your interpretation of the adoption is accurate as I understand it. I found another source that quotes the director of the Turkish Antarctic program as saying “Leaving our differences aside, let’s unite under the True South flag in order to explore Antarctica with science while protecting and promoting its unique beauty and nature.” There is another article in the journal of a flag association (Vexillum), but I can only access it through a library membership. It quotes other government officials about their adoption (e.g. in the case of Bulgaria '“Antarctica is a unique continent in which all the countries in the world live and work in the spirit of science, peace, and friendship. They all have their own flags, but their solidarity and collaboration is represented by the True South flag,” said Dr. Christo Pimpirev, Director of the Bulgarian Antarctic Institute.' Director of Czech programs are also quoted.) I tried to cite it as a source earlier, but I guess I can't because it's behind a subscription wall.

I appreciate you adding more sources for the notoriety of the Graham Bartram flag, but they don't seem to meet WP:RS. Both seem to be republications of an earlier version of this Wikipedia article, and both confuse the Bartram flag with the Emblem of the Antarctic Treaty. (The treaty emblem was officially adopted in 2002, not the Bartram flag.) I have tried to find more sources about its notability, but I've only been able to find mention about it flying on the one trip that's already mentioned in the article.

From everything I've been able to find, True South still seems to be by far the most notable flag. I do not think mentioning it in the lede shows preference, but I would like to gain consensus here before making any more edits to the page. Federalwafer (talk) 22:04, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

The sources added to the Bartram section were not forks of previous versions of this Wikipedia page; they contain significantly more text than can be found in either the current or former revisions of the Wikipedia article. I also do not think they confused the two flags; the treaty flag was adopted in 2002, but the Bartram flag became more used 2002 despite being designed in the 90s.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 22:22, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Per source 6, a primary source by the tourist who brought the flag on his trip, "Graham Bartram’s unofficial 1995 flag for Antarctica first flew over the White Continent on the last day of 2002" so it is not possible that it became popular later in the year. The article also states that there was one seller of the flag in 2002 who sold fewer than 100 flags. I will try to find more reputable sources, but these are definitely incorrect. Federalwafer (talk) 22:43, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Then the issue was with my wording, not with the sources; one source stated (correctly) that the Bartram flag flew over the continent in 2002, and another stated that other bases raised the flag in solidarity. What I missed was that the source says they were raised "at the same time", not "after." I'll be reinstating these sources. Further discussion about this should be in its own section, as this topic is getting a little off topic and creating clutter for whoever closes this to parse through.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 23:09, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

• Avoid using flags in Antarctica templates entirely. Obviously. Super Ψ Dro 14:28, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
• Comment Since a lot of !voters have suggested "avoid using flags in Antarctica templates entirely" and it seems the most likely option to achieve some sort of consensus here, I've added it as one of the options mentioned in the RfC question. I would like to clarify that I also support this third option in addition to supporting Option B. While I still think it's better to use the more recognizable Bartram flag if / when we display a flag for Antarctica (its use as the Antarctica flag emoji on all platforms is another compelling reason to prefer it), I also have to agree with the editors who've said it's inappropriate to display a flag for Antarctica in articles full stop.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 19:53, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Seeking consensus on notoriety of Bartram flag

Per discussion in RfC above, I'm seeking consensus on the recent inclusion of a claim about the Bartram flag "flying at most bases on the continent."

Currently the cited sources for the claim are from worldatlas.com and gotoflags.com.

I vote to remove this claim and the sources as they are directly contradicted by more credible sources and do not seem to meet Wikipedia:Reliable sources. The first source claims "In 2002, most bases on the continent started flying this flag alongside that of their own countries." The second source claims "The first time the flag was hoisted over the continent by the editor of the popular magazine “The Ravan” – Ted Kaye in 2002. At the same time, scientific bases, which are present on the continent, also raised the flag in solidarity."

The primary source written by the person who brought the flag to Antarctica as a tourist names the one base the flag flew at in 2002, which was the Brazilian base already mentioned in the article. (It also flew at the museum mentioned in the article.) Further, the flag was raised for the first time in Antarctic on Dec. 31, and the subsequent station the author visited (but did not fly the flag at) were in 2003, casting further doubt on the articles' claims. The primary source also mentions fewer than 100 flags were sold worldwide at the time of the article's writing, a claim substantiated by another source that states the flag was never frequently used on or off Antarctica.

The above sources also include other factual errors regarding the Bartram flag, including the claim that it was made official in 2002. According to the primary source, it was the emblem of the Antarctic Treaty, not the Bartram flag that was made official.

Tagging @Vanilla Wizard to share points in favor of inclusion, and tagging recently active editors for input. @SWinxy @Ornithoptera @Aaron Liu

Federalwafer (talk) 00:52, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Looking more closely at the PDF provided, the sources were in fact accurate to state that it flew at several bases and expeditions in Antarctica, though I'm not confident about the wording of "most" bases. Some of the statements you've repeated throughout the discussion are contradicted by the source, namely that it flew for the first time on December 31st and that only one base (Brazil's) used the flag.

Interestingly, the PDF actually contradicts itself, though only slightly. It says Graham Bartram’s unofficial 1995 flag for Antarctica first flew over the White Continent on the last day of 2002. But it also says Figure 17 The first “official” raising of the Antarctica flag by any nation in Antarctica, 30 December 2002, by a Brazilian scientist at Ferraz. and Figure 14 Ted Kaye unfurls the Antarctica flag for the first time in Antarctica, on King George Island in the South Shetlands, 30 December 2002. December 30th is not the last day of the year. Not sure what explains this discrepancy, but December 30th appears multiple times throughout the PDF, so I'm confident that it wasn't December 31st. I can only assume that it was meant to say "on the second-to-last day of 2002", but I'll never know for sure.

The source also mentions the flag hanging from an Argentine research base, from the flagpole of a historical British base (though he raised the flag himself, the base's assistant commander accepted the flag), and from a Ukrainian expedition vessel as well as other vessels. The claim you quoted from the first source is largely correct (still unsure about the "most" wording) and corroborated by the PDF. The second source stating that other bases would raise the flag in solidarity is neither confirmed nor contradicted by the PDF.

It is also incorrect to state that "fewer than 100 flags were sold worldwide." What the source actually states is that, by 1998, years before the flag had flown over the continent, one specific flag vendor in Wisconsin named Rick Prohaska sold fewer than 100 flags. This is very different from stating that fewer than 100 flags were sold globally even following his visit to Antarctica, as you had suggested.

Having taken a closer look at the primary source, I'm more confident that the information currently presented in the article is verifiable. I will, however, change the language to something other than "most bases" flew the flag.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 19:53, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Going through the other places you mentioned:

● Argentine base- The primary source author held the flag himself while at the base which can be seen in the photo in the pdf. The source also specifies that the station is unmanned, so there would be no one else there to fly it.

● Historical British base- This is the museum that was already mentioned in earlier versions of the article. Port Lockroy has not been a research base since 1962. It reopened as a tourist site in 1996. It is operated by a nonprofit called the UK Antarctic Heritage Trust, not by the actual federal organization which operates British Antarctic stations. (Please see the British Antarctic Survey's site for verification.)

● Ukrainian vessel- I believe you are referring to the M/V Orlova, the cruise ship which the source author travelled on. As the article states, this is a vessel of Russian origin which was operated by Quark Expeditions, a commercial travel company that brought the author down as a tourist. It is not affiliated with any national Antarctic programs.

● Other vessels- I'm not sure what part of the source you're referencing here, but I could find no mention of any other vessel flying the flag.

As the primary source and the previous versions of this article state, the Bartram flag only flew at one actual research base, the Brazilian one. I appreciate your willingness to discuss this, but the claim that even "several bases" flying the flag is still incorrect. If you still have uncertainties, we can explore other options for dispute resolution. Federalwafer (talk) 23:34, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

At the time of this trip, the historic Port Lockroy was still managed and staffed by the British Antarctic Survey as it didn't change management to UK Antarctic Heritage until 2006, so the wording of "several" is not inaccurate. I'll have to double-check the Argentine base's staffing and the document's mentions of vessels when I'm more available to do so, but I also still feel that it does not contradict the contents of this primary source document for secondary sources to claim that other bases flew the flag than the ones mentioned here; while the primary source document is more thorough and offers more confirmation to anything it does mention, I don't know that I'd assume anything not explicitly stated in it to be untrue as I can't say it contains any information which makes the claims by the secondaries improbable or obviously questionable, either. (Though the document did explicitly mention at least two bases staffed by national Antarctic surveys accepting and flying the flag, so my last sentence was a moot point as I'm still comfortable with the current phrasing in the article)  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 19:06, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Both the UKAHT and the British Antarctic Survey confirm that Port Lockroy has been run as a museum and staffed by UKAHT since 1996. 2006 is when it took over direct management. Once again, this was already clear in the article which states "On this trip, it flew at the Brazilian base Comandante Ferraz and the British museum at Port Lockroy."

As mentioned previously, the lack of mention of any other base in the primary source and the number of additional factual errors seem to make it clear that the sources you site for the claim about the Bartram flag flying at "several bases" are not reliable. Since we don't seem to be able to come to an agreement on this, I've brought it to the dispute resolution request board. Federalwafer (talk) 19:29, 13 August 2022 (UTC)