Talk:2017

Alexander Alexandrovich Volkov (politician)

Even though had eleven articles at the time of his death, I don't think he should be included, just like how Charlie Murphy is not included. I guess, leave him out. Gar (talk) 04:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Well, considering that practically all the non-English articles are clones and have no local references, AND several of which (including the Udmurt one) do not seem to have noticed that he died, it seems he was not particularly notable. Exclude. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 05:27, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

• • @DerbyCountyinNZ Exclude is right. Gar (talk) 13:12, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
    • No, we'll add individuals notable enough for articles. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:48, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

That's not how things work on recent year articles - we have a much higher bar for inclusion here. If they're not internationally notable, they should be excluded. Jim Michael (talk) 20:06, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Policy, guideline, project inclusion criteria please, or else it stays. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:12, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

WP:RY#Deaths. A person has to have international notability to be included. For years, we've excluded people who lack international notability even if they have enough articles. Jim Michael (talk) 20:34, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

2017 Manchester Arena bombing

The only international notability to this is Ariana Grande stopping her concert tour. Jim Michael (talk) 16:34, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. User should stop edit warring and come discuss Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 16:38, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

If this is what your saying, then your saying that the Orlando shooting shouldn't be included on the 2016 page. --MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 16:41, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

A perfectly logical assessment. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 18:43, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

I agree - and the 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting isn't on 2016. Jim Michael (talk) 20:21, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

As I was expecting this discussion to eventuate, I started this discussion at WP:RY. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 04:10, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Glenne Headly

She had nine non English wikis before death but I feel that an exception could be made for her. Rusted AutoParts 16:30, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• In what way? Looks notable enough to me. Nohomersryan (talk) 18:28, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

in what way do you mean "what way"? I'm supporting her inclusion here, but policy is that individuals must have 10+ non wikis in order to be considered notable for inclusion. She had nine prior to death, so that's why i'm suggesting perhaps an exception could be made for her to remain. But if it's determined she shouldn't, I'll abide by that decision. Rusted AutoParts 18:45, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• • • Oh, sorry, thought you meant an exception to WP:RYD and that you wanted her excluded. (It still says that you just need nine, not more, so I'm not sure where 9+ comes from?) Nohomersryan (talk) 21:28, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, where's the 10+ coming from? WP:RY says "at least nine" not "more than nine". -- Irn (talk) 21:51, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

9+ non-English Wikis (i.e. 10+ in total but excluding Simple English). DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 22:52, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Ok, right, that's my understanding, but the first comment in this section advocates making an exception to include someone with "nine non English" articles. That's just a mistake, then, right? In other words, this discussion is kind of backwards: even though Glenne Headly meets the minimum requirement, it's been proposed that she not be included. -- Irn (talk) 23:17, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

You're right, she had 9 + :en at the time of her passing, so according to guidelines, she could be included by default. I thought (below) that we were talking about someone with 9-language coverage overall. — Yerpo ^Eh? 04:51, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm not in favor of inclusion. Being a second-tier actress with no major awards simply doesn't justify making exceptions, in my opinion. — Yerpo ^Eh? 19:26, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. The 9+ non-English Wiki requirement is already becoming too low so I don't see that an exception is justified. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 21:09, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

And FWIW, her non-English articles are clearly cloned from the English, consist of a very brief biography and a list of films/tv series and contain almost no local citations. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 00:25, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

In what way is she internationally notable? She's one of an increasingly large number of people who lack international notability, but has stub articles in several languages - some of which are insufficiently referenced and/or badly written/translated. We need additional guidelines for inclusion, such as having won major awards. Jim Michael (talk) 16:57, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Otto Warmbier

Technically, he had 9 non-English articles before his death, but two of them were added a day before when such an outcome was imminent. I suggest exclusion, the event was tragic, but this person wasn't notable for any real achievement, so WP:NOTNEWS would apply. — Yerpo ^Eh? 09:41, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

I was thinking along the same lines. People who gain notability through circumstance rather than achievement are subject to exclusion per WP:RYD. Unless his death results in some tangible international reaction then he should be excluded. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 10:32, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 June 2017

Add the destruction of the Al-Nuri Mosque in Mosul under the "events" section Debartolo2717 (talk) 02:24, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Done Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 03:23, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

@Debartolo2717:/@Eggishorn: If you don't mind me asking, why exactly is this event so important to deserve a place in the yearly list? A number of cultural monuments was destroyed in this conflict, what makes this mosque so special (aside from the structural glitch)? — Yerpo ^Eh? 05:03, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

I won't attempt to speak for Debartolo2717, but possibly because it was supposed to be IS's capital? I fulfilled the edit request because it was verifiable, there wasn't any general policy reason to not add it, and nothing on this page appears to forbid it. Other year articles include major cultural crimes, such as the destruction of the Buddhas of Bamiyan in the 2001 article. If a consensus develops her after discussion that it should not belong (perhaps per WP:NOTNEWS), I won't object. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 05:12, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Actually, as per WP:RY it "... must have a demonstrated, international significance". Although it has often been argued that "international significance" is undefined this is one of many cases where there appears to be no (or at least insufficient) international significance. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 05:29, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Gnews search for "mosul mosque destruction" gets ~41,000 results in the last 24 hours, from most major US and UK outlets, as well as major RS from Israel, Hong Kong, Al-Arabiya and Al Jazeera, etc. with officials from the US, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and even Indonesia expressing condemnation of various sorts. That seemed like demonstrating international significance to me and so I didn't think RY was a barrier. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 05:51, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

A common misconception: Merely being mentioned in numerous news outlets, and even the "expressing (of) condemnation" does not demonstrate "significance" as this happens for every disaster or similar; there is no actual international effect. This is a common area of dispute in Recent Year pages and has, despite the efforts of a few editors, has never been adequately resolved. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 07:05, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

I've removed it. There's no reason to include this one, but not the destruction of other buildings. Media reports and condemnation from public figures is standard - this isn't unusual. Jim Michael (talk) 18:36, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

As it was actually featured on the main page, I've restored it. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:45, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Also, since WP:OTHERSTUFF was invoked, the Buddhas of Bamiyan were a UNESCO World Heritage monument, so not really comparable, no. — Yerpo ^Eh? 19:31, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Al-Nuri Mosque in Mosul

This appears to be controversial. Is it notable enough to be included? Power~enwiki (talk) 20:29, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

@Jim Michael: @The Rambling Man:

Support

1. as nom. It's a major event in the war against ISIS.
2. as nom. It may be an important historical landmark.

Oppose

1. as nom. It's one of many news events in the war against ISIS.
2. as nom. It may not be an important historical landmark.

• Notable enough to be included in the ITN section of the main page of Wikipedia, I'd say this is pretty bloody obvious. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:33, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

ITN has a much lower bar for inclusion than RY. I don't know why you're falsely asserting that being important enough for ITN means that it's important enough to be here. This is one of many similar destructions in the Middle East's wars and terror attacks - we'd be swamped with them if were to include all of them. Jim Michael (talk) 20:37, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Is that why the 2017 article is basically empty? You would not be swamped if you included all the ITN stories about destructions of prominent buildings in the Middle East. That assertion is absolutely false. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:39, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

It's nothing like empty. Many important buildings are destroyed in wars - our articles would be dominated by these details if we included them. Jim Michael (talk) 20:43, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

You didn't read what I wrote. You would not be swamped if you included all the ITN stories about destructions of prominent buildings in the Middle East. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:44, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

We'd have far too many. Destruction of cultural heritage by ISIL lists many, and too many of them are put on ITN. Jim Michael (talk) 20:46, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

How many of them have been put on ITN? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:47, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't know, but it's too many. This one's on ITN now, but shouldn't be on here. Jim Michael (talk) 20:52, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

If it's appropriate for main page inclusion, it's appropriate for inclusion here. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:58, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Why do you wrongly believe that? We have different inclusion criteria here. Note, for example, that we haven't included any of the attacks in London. Jim Michael (talk) 21:14, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Yet you include Prodigy, a rapper whose article is so inadequate that it's been given short shrift at ITN? Is it that you include unreferenced junk here and exclude quality articles that have millions of hits? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:19, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

I've just removed him due to a lack of international notability. Number of page views isn't part of the inclusion criteria here. Jim Michael (talk) 21:23, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

So just an indiscriminate collection of poor articles which bear no resemblance to items that our readers would be interested in learning about? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:29, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Not indiscriminate - they have to be of international notability, a criteria that isn't used at ITN. Domestic events are on articles such as 2017 in the United States and 2017 in the United Kingdom. ITN has article quality as its most important factor for inclusion, whereas here it's international notability. Jim Michael (talk) 21:31, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Got it, that's why it gets so few page views, a bizarre mixture of criteria leading to a page which is full of barely interesting and pisspoor BLPs, but bereft of actual news stories or quality articles. I understand, I'm happy to leave you this, I may well suggest we completely overhaul the contents in the future because right now it's a bugger's muddle and doesn't serve our readership at all. Imagine wanting to know what's happened in 2017 to be confronted with ONE EVENT IN FEBRUARY GLOBALLY (!) yet the death of a Japanese manga artist and a stub about a Papua New Guinean politician feature in no fewer than 44 deaths. Do you really believe that's the right balance? Would Britannica have a single entry globally for all of Feb 2017 while having 44 "notable" deaths? Think again. And no, not at all, ITN does not have "article quality as its most important factor for inclusion", that's a completely false assertion. Quality is a requirement, consensus for suitability is the most important factor. Please don't make such false assertions. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:38, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

It's not bizarre. Events have to be internationally notable. Deaths have to be of internationally notable people. Some death of people who lack international notability are added because they have many articles, making them seem internationally notable. Many of those are poorly-referenced stubs, sometimes created in order to have them included here. Heads of state and heads of government are automatically included, which is why Michael Ogio is there. Jiro Taniguchi won an award in France, which is probably justification for his inclusion. Jim Michael (talk) 21:50, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

It's completely bizarre, a subset of the list of deaths which is covered elsewhere (e.g. Deaths in 2017), but a sprinkling of so-called internationally notable events, excluding most of those the encyclopedia deemed notable enough for main page inclusion which would have millions of pageviews and would be of interest to our readers. This page should be getting a million hits a day. Instead, 5000? Something's wrong here. Still, you all seem well happy with the awful muddle you've created, so good luck to you. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:57, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

They're an internationally notable subset - what's bizarre about that? This wouldn't receive anything like a million pageviews, regardless of content. "So-called"? Which of the events on here aren't internationally notable? Jim Michael (talk) 22:04, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

This is a dead-end page. People won't be coming here for information, especially once they realise what's here. ONE GLOBAL EVENT in February 2017? Seriously. People's talk pages get more views than this amateur collection of oddities. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:12, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

There are no oddities here - only internationally notable events and births and deaths of internationally notable people. There aren't many events which are internationally notable. It's not a dead end - there are links in the 2017 by topic box to many articles with focuses on particular countries or types of events. Jim Michael (talk) 22:49, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Honestly, if you believe 44 deaths and a single global event to be reasonable, this conversation ends. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:56, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: I agree with your conclusion (that the guidelines used to determine which events are notable are far too restrictive). However, that is the consensus, and right now, you're arguing against consensus. That's not going to work. I think that at the very least the wording at WP:RY needs to be made more explicit. Right now, the operating consensus amongst those most dedicated to watching and maintaining these pages is to interpret the “demonstrated, international significance” required by the guideline as meaning having tangible effects in multiple countries. That results in very few events being listed. Cheers, -- Irn (talk) 01:22, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

What other reasonable way of interpreting it is there? Jim Michael (talk) 01:25, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

@Jim Michael: There are myriad other reasonable ways of interpreting such a phrase. Significance is a highly subjective concept. What is significant to one person might not be significant to another. There is no definitional reason to limit significance to effects, and effects are by no means the only way to demonstrate significance. -- Irn (talk) 17:26, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Let's (objectively) summarize this event. "The (rebel) citizens of a country destroyed a historic monument in their own country. Again. Many other countries expressed their disapproval of the destruction. Again. As a consequence...nothing happened. Again." The destruction of the monument was so significant that it got its own Wikipedia page...oh, wait, no it didn't. But it did make the news. Like millions of other events throughout history. Resulting historical significance? So far, minimal. If at some point in the future the destruction of this mosque is deemed to have been a significant turning point in the war on ISIS then by all means include it. At present it is of no particular significance and therefore there is no justification for its inclusion (under long-standing consensus). As for the criteria for inclusion, yes they need to be clarified and/or updated. But that discussion belongs at Wikipedia talk:Recent years not here. And FWIW changing the criteria just to make a point and get something included because you failed to get consensus on a Recent Year talk page is not constructive. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 05:28, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Looks like some serious ownership issues here. You all honestly believe that one "notable" event (Per your own criteria) took place across the entire globe in the whole of February? Seriously, that's why no-one uses this page. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:10, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

TRM, that's enough. That is nowhere near close to an actual argument. I think it's time to drop the stick and let it go. Should you have more policy- or guideline-based arguments in the near future, you can always return. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 15:28, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

As Derby said, the destruction of the mosque doesn't have it's own article. It's one of many mosques and other buildings that have been destroyed in the Middle East in recent years.

This - and other RY articles - link to many year articles that centre on particular countries, types of event etc. Jim Michael (talk) 19:44, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I was applying a "common sense guideline". If this "project" or whatever it is, determines that one global event occurred in February 2017, then it renders these kind of pages useless. Particularly when we have 44 deaths within the same month featured on the page. Policy or guideline? This particular page doesn't seem to use either, it has a bizarre version of notability for inclusion, and a despairingly low pageview. That all speaks for itself. If you want to preserve this as-is, fine, but you need to understand that it's running itself to death and no interest. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:47, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

If we applied similar guidelines to ITN, year articles would be full of various domestic crimes in which few or no people are killed, awards, destructions of buildings, sports events etc. that most people aren't interested in. Also, it would be a pointless duplication. You've repeatedly mentioned February, but haven't suggested any world events which happened during that month which you think should be included. Jim Michael (talk) 21:59, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

That's not my job, you honestly think that the hundreds of nominations at ITN in February would garner just one "worldwide significant" event? Honestly? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:56, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

How about:

• 2017 Africa Cup of Nations
• 2017 Australian Open
• Malta Declaration (EU)
• 59th Annual Grammy Awards
• Ceres (dwarf planet)
• Cloudbleed
• 89th Academy Awards

The Rambling Man (talk) 19:06, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

I doubt that any of those are eligible. Very few sports events are important enough - they go on 2017 in sports. We don't usually include awards or space-related events. Jim Michael (talk) 19:13, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, reading the arcane and bizarre inclusion critieria (e.g. "nine or more" sources), as you claim to ignore global awards and space events, this renders these year pages even more useless than I'd thought. Plus the fact that it's unclear to a "reader" where to go to find such information, there's an over-crowded sidebox, but honestly it now looks like we should delete these cherry-picked events and just stick with a list of lists, i.e. 2017 links to 2017 in sport. 2017 in politics etc. Because the choice currently being made is bonkers and is leading to a nominal amount of pageviews which renders this bureaucratic oversight pointless. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:19, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

It's WP articles in nine or more languages other than English (to show considerable international notability), not nine or more sources.

The box is needed to show the many articles about this year in different subjects, countries etc. Jim Michael (talk) 20:38, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I know, it's just how do our readers actually understand what is and what is not included in such prominent articles? The answer is: THEY DON'T AND THEY CAN'T SO THEY WON'T READ IT. Hence fewer page views on such prominent articles than some users' talk pages. Glad the one or two of you who "run this project" seem happy with what you've produced, but it is, frankly, shambolic. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:50, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

The criteria for year articles from 2002 onwards are detailed on WP:RY - although they could be clearer and improved. There are several regular editors here, not one or two. The inclusion criteria here are very different to those at ITN, where in many cases an event is only relevant to the country in which it occurred. Jim Michael (talk) 21:47, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, you've noted that three or four times. The point is that our readers, when heading for a 2017 page, wouldn't expect to see such pseudo-random collection of items with such arcane selection methods applied. It looks like an embarrassment to Wikipedia, but you have your own rules and your own group of a couple of editors maintaining it. Good luck, I hope one day you'll get more views than weak DYK. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:53, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

There's nothing random about them - they're the internationally, historically notable events of the year only. There are several of us, not a couple. If you have any specific ways of improving the project guidelines, detail them and they'll be considered. Jim Michael (talk) 22:16, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Oh my gosh, this is getting pathetic guys. Y'all are just bickering at each other. This is not even remotely close to reaching consensus whatever your views may be. Jim and TRM, let it go already. The constant "This page is a joke and I hope it dies" type of vibe is absurd. This isn't even a discussion. Can both you let this go already? This is so wasteful. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 05:18, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Totally correct assessment! DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 05:41, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Not at all. The inclusion criteria is bizarre to say the least, and making an assertion that only one event has taken place in February 2017 really is delusional. It's doing a real disservice to our readers. And I don't think anyone said "I hope it dies", from the pageviews, it already has. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:08, 25 June 2017 (UTC)