Talk:Baháʼí Faith

Page layout

Warburg. Baha'i (2001)

Warburg wrote a small, 75 page overview of the Baha'i Faith for an Italian publisher (2001). Glancing over the table of contents, I think she does a better job of laying out topics compared to this wiki page. Here is what she has (shortening some headings):

• Emergence and historical development
  • Declaration of the Bab
  • Rise of the Babi movement
  • Exile in Baghdad and declaration of Baha'u'llah
  • Development under Baha'u'llah
  • Abdu'l-Baha and expansion in the West
  • Shoghi Effendi and the routinization of leadership
  • Establishment of the Universal House of Justice

• Baha'i beliefs and rituals
  • Fundamental doctrines
  • The Baha'i year
  • Baha'i festivals
  • Rituals
    • Prayer
    • Fast
    • Collective rites
  • Pilgrimage
  • Baha'i symbols
  • Economic rituals
  • Huququ'llah

• Baha'is in the world
  • Number and distribution of Baha'is worldwide
  • Baha'i temples
  • Baha'i World Centre
  • Baha'i mission strategies
  • Social development projects
  • Working through international organizations

• Schism, opposition, and persecution
  • Schisms since the Bab
  • International disputes and opposition
  • Persecutions
  • [Situation in Iran]

Cuñado ☼ - Talk 17:02, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Proposal

Warburg's wouldn't work exactly as laid out. I don't like the phrase "rituals", for example. Here's is a proposal combining the current structure with improvements from Warburg's example.

• Fundamental beliefs
  • Progressive revelation
  • Social principles

• Historical development
  • Declaration of the Bab
  • Rise of the Babi movement
  • Exile in Baghdad
  • Declaration of Baha'u'llah
  • Development under Baha'u'llah
  • Abdu'l-Baha and expansion in the West
  • Guardianship of Shoghi Effendi
  • Establishment of the Universal House of Justice

• Practices
  • Prayer
  • Fast
  • Exhortations and prohibitions
  • Marriage
  • Burial
  • The Baha'i calendar
  • Symbols
  • Huququ'llah

• Baha'is in the world
  • Number and distribution of Baha'is worldwide
  • Places of worship
  • Baha'i World Centre
  • Baha'i teaching plans
  • Social development projects
  • United Nations

• Opposition
  • Attempted schisms
  • Polemics
  • Persecution
  • Situation in Iran

Cuñado ☼ - Talk 17:02, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

• That would be a pretty top-to-bottom significant re-write. I see a lot of good in the goal of it. I've been trying to write up a brief and updated reconsitution on the "Number and distribution…" part. A lot of interesting things to put together for these. And agreed on the word 'rituals'. 'practices'? Smkolins (talk) 17:59, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Hmm, I'd say I'm neutral overall, leaning against until a clearer rationale is given. What problems with the current organization are you trying to solve? Currently, most of the headings seem simple and neutral, though I'll admit there are problems with some, like having "Symbols" under "Social practices". I'm also unclear why you selected progressive revelation and social principles as the fundamental teachings of the Baha'i Faith. Aren't the Baha'i view of God and the soul, this life as a test, the afterlife, mysticism, virtues and developing spiritual qualities, etc. also some of the most fundamental teachings? Gazelle55 (talk) 22:36, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Good point, I didn't clarify something. Under the main heading of ==Fundamental beliefs== I was planning on overviewing the main beliefs before stepping into the subsection. The heading ===Progressive revelation=== could combine and shorten the three topics currently as "God", "religion", and "Human beings". In general I would like to follow the weight of subjects as they appear in several reliable sources, currently I'm looking at Warburg, MacEoin, Smith, Stockman, and Hartz. The main change I'm looking at is incorporating Warburg's section headings of "Baha'is in the world", "Opposition", and "historical development", which I think are better and more natural than what this page currently has. The "progressive revelation" is not a big deal I could just ditch that. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 23:33, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Okay, that makes more sense now. I'm okay with most of the changes though I find the current headings of "God", "Religion", and "Human beings" are easier to understand for readers who aren't familiar, rather than grouping it together under "Progressive revelation". I'm fine with changing "History" to "Historical Development" and having those new sub-headings, though I'd think that rather than ending with "Establishment of the Universal House of Justice" we should have at least one section for the 60 years since, especially the widespread use of the Ruhi Institute materials. The broader "Opposition" section makes sense to me, though I might suggest changing "Polemics" to "Criticism" to include both polemical and non-polemical critiques. Gazelle55 (talk) 22:39, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Stockman. A Guide for the Perplexed (2013)

My thinking is that if the page is going to redone thanks to the FA nomination it's an idea to start fresh and starting from the outlines of major newer overall sources can be very useful, allowing tweaking. I wouldn't mind seeing a table of the TOC of a few major introductory reviews like this Warburg text (I've not seen,) and Stockman's Guide to the Perplexed. Here's the Guide to the Perplexed TOC layers with adapted brief wording:

• Baha'i Teachings
  • Unity
    • Unity as process
    • Importance of education
    • Unity in diversity
    • Consultation
    • Unity and the need for organization
    • Incompatibility of unity and partisanship
    • Electoral process
    • Infallibility, covenant and dissent
    • Engaging society
  • Divinity and relationship to creation
    • Unknowable Essence, Primal Will, Creation
    • The Manifestation
    • Progressive Revelation
    • Prophetology
    • Revelation
    • Religions
  • Path to individual transformation
    • Prayer
    • Fasting
    • Study
    • Pilgrimage
    • Law and faith
    • Marriage
    • Family
  • An ever-advancing civilization
    • Work is worship
    • The Mashriqu'l-Adhkár
    • Teaching, social action, and public discourse
    • Global civilization
    • Lesser Peace
    • Social reform
• Development of the Baha'i Community
  • The Bab and Babi community (1844-1853)
    • Declaration
    • Writings & growth
    • Maku
    • Day of Resurrection
    • Chiriq
    • Trial and execution
  • Ministry of Baha'u'llah(1853-1892)
    • Siyah Chat
    • Exile
    • Baghdad & Major works
    • Declaration at Ridvan
    • Istanbul
    • Acre
    • Houses
    • Developments in Iran and countries
    • Ascension
  • Ministry of Abdu'l-Baha(1892-1921)
    • Opposition
    • Expansion in the West
    • Development in Iran
    • Knitting together East and West
    • Houses of worship
    • Devotion & Persecution
    • Iranian constitutional Revolution
    • Freedom, travel to the West, and the Tablets of the Divine Plan
    • WWI and aftermath
  • Ministry of Shoghi Effendi(1921-1963)
    • Immediate aftermath of the death of Abdu'l-Baha
    • Priorities of the guardianship and building the administrative order
    • Interpretation and translations
    • Developments in Palestine
    • Developments East and West from WWII
    • Ten Year Crusade
    • Persecution
    • Chief stewards
  • Earlier developments under the Universal House of Justice (1963-1996)
    • Plans and minorities
    • Baha'i scholarship
    • Systematic persecution in Iran
    • Plans up to the Holy Year 1992 (this and next couple sections can certainly be aided by McMullen's 2015 The Baha'is of America - The growth of a religious movement, perhaps helping earlier parts too not because its about America but because it's an outline of the Plans especially during the House's ministry)
    • Plans after the Holy Year 1992 -6
    • Education, scholarship, and arts
  • Recent era under the Universal House of Justice (1997...)
    • Continued merging from obscurity
    • 1st Framework of plans
    • Scholarship, education & external affairs ( and then after Perplexed)
    • 2nd Framework of plans ( 2018's Religion and Public Discourse in an Age of Transition: Reflections of Bahá'í Thought and Practice, and 2022's The World of the Baha'i Faith can certainly help especially here)

Smkolins (talk) 02:48, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm working on a table but realized it's not really a fair comparison (yet) because for Guide to the Perplexed above I pushed down to chapter sub-headings while merging some of them. So I'm backing that out and including the chapter TOC for The World of the Baha'i Faith. I may post this later when i have more time - very busy day ahead. Smkolins (talk) 11:44, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

How's this? (BTW I'm not objecting to Warburg's list as modified by Cuñado, I'm trying to provide a broader review, a sense of the worthiness of a rethink on this, not particularly advocating specifically on using Perplexed or The World perse.)

The World of the Baha’i Faith	Baha’i Faith: Guide to the Perplexed(a simple chapter list here mostly but I feel it's a bit underselling the content/categories, but something between here and what's listed above)	Warburg 2001 source
* Leadership and Authoritative Texts	* Baha'i Teachings	*Fundamental beliefs
** The Báb	** Unity	**Progressive revelation
** The Writings and Teachings of the Báb	** Divinity and relationship to creation	**Social principles
** Bahá’u’lláh	** Path to individual transformation	*Historical development
** The Writings of Bahá'u'lláh	** An ever-advancing civilization
** ‘Abdu’l-Bahá	* Development of the Baha'i Community	**Declaration of the Bab
** The Writings and Utterances of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá	** The Bab and Babi community (1844-1853)	**Rise of the Babi movement
** Shoghi Effendi Rabbani	** Ministry of Baha'u'llah(1853-1892)	**Exile in Baghdad
** The English Language Writings of Shoghi Effendi	** Ministry of Abdu'l-Baha(1892-1921)	**Declaration of Baha'u'llah
** The Writings of Shoghi Effendi in Persian	** Earlier developments under the Universal House of Justice (1963-1996)	**Development under Baha'u'llah
** The Universal House of Justice	** Recent era under the Universal House of Justice (1997...)	**Abdu'l-Baha and expansion in the West
** The Writings of the Universal House of Justice	*** 2nd Framework of plans (going beyond what is in Perplexed, see above)	**Guardianship of Shoghi Effendi
* Theology		**Establishment of the Universal House of Justice
** Theology and Philosophy		*Practices
** God, Revelation, and Manifestation		**Prayer
** Progressive Revelation		**Fast
** Interfaith Relations		**Exhortations and prohibitions
** Science and Religion		**Marriage
* Humanity		**Burial
** Oneness and Unity		**The Baha'i calendar
** The Physical and Spiritual Dimensions of Human Nature		**Symbols
** Unity in Diversity: African Americans and the Bahá’í Faith		**Huququ'llah
** The Equality of the Sexes		*Baha'is in the world
** Mysticism		**Number and distribution of Baha'is worldwide
** Progress of the soul: life after death		**Places of worship
** Spirituality and Spiritual Practices		**Baha'i World Centre
* Society		**Baha'i teaching plans
** Artistic Expression		**Social development projects
** Economics: The Prosperity of the World and the Development of Nations		**United Nations
** Education		*Opposition
** Environment and Sustainability
** Governance		**Attempted schisms
** Law		**Polemics
** Marriage and Family Life		**Persecution
** Peace		**Situation in Iran
** Work and Business
* Contemporary Bahá’í Community
** The Covenant and Covenant-breaking
** The Bahá’í Administrative Order
** Constructive Agency
** Consultation
** A Culture of Learning
** Devotional Life
** Religious Persecution of Bahá’ís Under the Islamic Republic of Iran
* History and Spread of the Bahá’í Community
** The History of the Bábí and Bahá'í Faiths
** Arab Middle East
** Europe
** Iran
** Latin America and the Caribbean
** North America
** Northeast Asia
** Oceania
** South Asia
** Southeast Asia
** Sub-Saharan Africa

Smkolins (talk) 22:34, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for compiling this, Smkolins. I think we'll want significantly less sections than The World of the Baha'i Faith has, though we can still probably glean some useful ideas from its organization. Gazelle55 (talk) 06:14, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Order of sections for the pages of other major religions

So one key aspect of deciding the organization is deciding the order of sections. Here is basically the order used for the other three main Abrahamic religions (I'm paraphrasing some section names to make them comparable):

• Judaism: History, beliefs, texts, demographics, practices, leadership, persecution, criticism
• Christianity: Beliefs, practices, texts, history, demographics, criticism, persecution
• Islam: Beliefs, practices, history, demographics, criticism (and no section for texts!)

As you can see, there isn't much of a consensus. So what follows is just my thoughts and could be combined with some of the suggestions above. I think it would be good to keep beliefs, practices, and texts together (you could say that these together are the Baha'i teachings). I like having history first (except for the etymology) because the various leaders are mentioned a lot in other sections and I think it's a bit unclear with history later like it is now. And I think we should add a section for administration rather than having that mashed together with the "Universal House of Justice" part of the history section. So perhaps something like this: Etymology > History > Beliefs > Texts > Practices > Administration > Demographics > Persecution > Criticism? As for what sub-sections to have, I think we can take inspiration from the books whose sections are laid out above.

I'm thinking it's very unlikely this article will keep FA status so I see this as a longer-term question to work on. At the very least, I won't personally have much time for the next while. Gazelle55 (talk) 06:14, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I think my suggestions here didn't engage properly with what was already suggested by other editors above. I'll look in more detail at the ideas above when I have a chance and try to synthesize that with the way the other Abrahamic religion pages are organized. My main thought with my suggestions above was that we want headings that are simple, neutral, and understandable to people not familiar with the Baha'i Faith at all, arranged in an order so that earlier sections don't reference stuff from the later sections too much. Open to suggestions on the details. Gazelle55 (talk) 17:41, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Please fix Barrett citation

@Cuñado: The text was put in by your 11 January 2021 edit without a citation, shortly after was removed by Serv181920, re-added by you with the citation {{sfn|Barrett|2001|p=24}}... which when you click on it jumps to "Barrett 2001, p. 24.", click on that and it jumps to:

Barrett, David A. (2001). "Global statistics for all religions: 2001 AD". World Christian Encyclopedia. p. 4.

There is no David *A* Barrett and page 4 is not the same as page 24, but no mind, as a reader I would assume the book title was the guiding part. Somewhere within the next few days (I got tired of tracking down the details) "Barrett 2001" wound up as:

Barrett, David V. (2001). The New Believers: a survey of sects, cults, and alternative religions. London: Cassell & Co. ISBN 1-84403-040-7.

An attempt by you to add David B. Barrett back in just made it more confusing.

My original point still stands: that the citation as it sits now DOES NOT VERIFY, and in fact has never verified because the citation always failed or was messed up by confusing/swapping the two Barretts, or having two Barrett-2011s in the article, confusing the poor {{sfn}}. If you want to keep the content, then please find a citation you can personally verify today, with a correct page number, and preferably use a version I can also verify, like this one online at OpenLibrary.org (with the big blue 'Borrow' button) which I checked and cannot find anything similar to "Barrett calling Baha'i an 'alternative religion'" on page 4 or 24 or anywhere near there. I'm sure you had some reference you were looking at. Just cite it where it 'works' in Wikipedia. Grorp (talk) 00:29, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi Grorp, all the links seem to work fine for me. When I put those in I recognized how crazy it is to have two David Barretts with different books published in 2001 that both have descriptions of the Baha'i Faith. What a strange world. David V. Barrett wrote The New Believers, which is what my links all point to when the sfn points to Barrett 2001. David B. Barrett wrote World Christian Encyclopedia, which has this in its reference: ref={{sfnref|World Christian Encyclopedia|2001}}, which means its pointer is {{sfn|World Christian Encyclopedia|2001}}.

I have physical copies of both books and I can provide contents on request. I glanced at The New Believers page 24 and the reference to "alternative religion" is the only example that is not in the section on the Baha'i Faith. The book subtitle is Sects, Cults, and Alternative Religions, and page 24 is a lengthy discussion on why "alternative religion" is the most neutral way to describe all the examples in the book.

I wasn't sure if you were removing it based on contents or the sfn pointer problem. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 02:24, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

The links did not work fine. "Alternative religion[8]" linked to Barrett V. I made a change. You should go back over all the other Barrett 2001's and separate them. Note: The title of the book is insufficient to indicate it was meant for each and every religion in the book. Yes, please, provide a copy of page 24 where it says that about baha'i. Thank you. Grorp (talk) 03:16, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Inclusion of Orthodox Bahai Faith in the 'See Also' Section

The Orthodox Bahai Faith is a Baha'i sect which believes in continuation of Guardianship and accepts Charles Mason Remey as the second Guardian. While it shares similarities with the mainstream Bahai Faith, its belief in Guardianship is something that distinguish it from the larger Bahai community.

Given the Orthodox Bahai Faith's historical and theological connection to the Bahai Faith, it is appropriate to include a link to the Orthodox Bahai Faith in the "See Also" section of the Bahai Faith Wikipedia page. The inclusion of a link to the Orthodox Bahai Faith would provide readers with a more comprehensive understanding of the religious landscape of the Bahai community and allow them to explore this distinct religious movement further.--Asad29591 (talk) 18:48, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

It is not a significant, even measurable, fragment of a group that has itself broken into factions of mere handfuls of people. It is unwarranted to mention it. 20:53, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE: Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all. Orthodox Baha'is are an extreme minority (generously, 100 out of 5 million, or 0.002%) and may be almost defunct. Independent sources generally don't even mention them when covering the Baha'i Faith. Asad29591, you've spent the last two years trying to promote your beliefs here. WP:PROMOTION: You might wish to start a blog or visit a forum if you want to convince people of the merits of your opinions. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 21:49, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Dear Cuñado,

Thank you for your response to my message about including a link to the Orthodox Bahai Faith in the "See Also" section of the Baha'i Faith Wikipedia page.

I understand that the Orthodox Bahai Faith is a small community within the broader Baha'i community, and its beliefs may not be shared by the majority. However, as a follower of the Orthodox Bahai Faith, I believe that it is important to recognize the diversity within the Baha'i community and acknowledge the existence of different religious movements that have historical and theological connections to the Baha'i Faith.

The inclusion of a link to the Orthodox Bahai Faith would not only provide readers with a more comprehensive understanding of the religious landscape of the Baha'i community but also allow them to explore this distinct religious movement further. Furthermore, it would adhere to the Wikipedia policy of being neutral and providing a balanced representation of the subject matter.

I understand that you may have concerns about the significance of the Orthodox Bahai Faith and its representation on Wikipedia. However, I assure you that my intention is not to promote my beliefs or convince others of their merits. Rather, it is to ensure that readers have access to accurate and relevant information about the Baha'i Faith and its related movements.

If you are not willing to reconsider your decision to remove the link to the Orthodox Bahai Faith, I would like to request arbitration to resolve this matter. It is important that we maintain a respectful and constructive dialogue in order to reach a consensus on this issue.

Thank you for your time and consideration. Asad29591 (talk) 10:20, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I think one problem with the "History" section of the article is that it jumps from 1957 to 1963. Sources I've seen spend time on the crisis of succession (if we may call it that) in that period so I think it would make sense to mention the custodians and Mason Remey's challenge before the election of the UHJ. It's possible the Orthodox Baha'i Faith could be mentioned briefly there as having arisen from Remey's challenge, though I'm on the fence about that since it's not such a central detail. Gazelle55 ^{Let's talk!} 03:58, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Also, Asad29591, you're welcome to seek outside input to resolve your dispute with Cuñado, but asking the arbitration committee to intervene is the highest level of input and you should seek input at lower levels first. Based on Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, I think starting with a WP:RfC would be more appropriate. Also, perhaps improving the history section in the way I suggested above would solve the problem – let me know your thoughts on that. Gazelle55 ^{Let's talk!} 04:05, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Dear Gazelle55,

Thank you for your message and suggestion to improve the history section of the Baha'i Faith Wikipedia page. I agree that it would be beneficial to provide more context on the crisis of succession in the Baha'i Faith and include information on the custodians and Charles Mason Remey's challenge before the election of the Universal House of Justice. I will be happy to work on making these improvements in the future.

However, as of now, I would like to respectfully request the inclusion of a link to the Orthodox Bahai Faith in the "See Also" section of the Baha'i Faith Wikipedia page. As a sect of the Baha'i Faith, the Orthodox Bahai Faith has historical and theological connections to the larger Baha'i community, and I believe that it is important to recognize the diversity within the Baha'i community and provide readers with access to accurate and relevant information about related movements.

I would also like to assume good faith with Cuñado and not take the internal faith matter out in public. Hence, I would like to put the Orthodox Bahai Faith in the "See Also" section for now and end this discussion.

Thank you for your understanding and support in this matter.

Best regards,

Asad Asad29591 (talk) 18:11, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

• What is most distinguishing is that they broke with the community and practically died out. Why is this important? The community's diversity is hugely represented by the hundreds of countries it is organized in, the diversity of people across a century has reached the point of notability enough to have articles about them in Wikipedia. I see no relevance of this particular mention. Smkolins (talk) 18:20, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi Asad29591, I'm fine with just including a "see also" link for now. That said, I replaced it with Attempted schisms in the Baháʼí Faith since that is a more general topic, from which the reader can then find individual sects. I think that also addresses Smkolins' concern since that focuses on the historical attempts rather than sects that currently have many adherents (there is no such sect aside from the main group). Gazelle55 ^{Let's talk!} 18:24, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Cuñado, thanks for removing links that were already in the body. In response to your point above, I don't think WP:DUE is relevant, since it's about the distribution of opinion in reliable sources, not how common a viewpoint is in the world. Your other point was that reliable sources typically don't even mention the Orthodox Baha'i Faith because it's so miniscule (and maybe defunct). I'll have to look into that to make up my mind on whether it deserves to be in the "See also" section. I'm leaning towards including it. In the meantime, Asad29591, if you have some general source on the Baha'i Faith and it discusses the Orthodox Baha'i Faith, feel free to share it. Gazelle55 ^{Let's talk!} 14:32, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Gazelle55, you're good at compromise and consensus, and you're editing in good faith. I don't have the same feelings for Asad29591 due to experience over the last two years. Even his current proposal is framed as a chance for more people to see the link and learn about his beliefs, not an objective improvement to the article. An overview of related articles, I think, wouldn't pluck out the Orthodox Baha'i Faith for further exploration. Why not Baháʼí Esperanto League, FUNDAEC, World Religion Day, Baháʼí Faith in South Carolina, Muhammad in the Baháʼí Faith, Martyrdom in the Baháʼí Faith, or Baha'i Faith in [any country]? South Carolina alone has 100 times the members of the Orthodox sect. FUNDAEC is a high functioning non-profit that has operated for half a century. World Religion Day is an international holiday initiated by Baha'is. Orthodox Baha'i Faith is a sad example of disunity and egotism. Maybe it's interesting for that reason, but it doesn't seem like the thing that would normally be included in See Also here. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:52, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Cuñado I think I'm convinced by what you've written. It's not just a question of whether it could be included but whether it's more important than other things that could be included. I added several more that aren't in the body. Asad29591, if you still think it should be included, please explain why this link, out of many possible links, deserves to be on the list. I tried to assume good faith with you for a long time but your edit history gives a clear sense of WP:PROMOTION. If I'm wrong and you actually want to improve the article, feel free to work on the history section (where mentioning Mason Remey would make sense). By the way, there is a much longer list of relevant articles at Outline of the Baháʼí Faith and I've added Orthodox Baháʼí Faith there – I think that's sufficient. Gazelle55 ^{Let's talk!} 20:12, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi Gazelle55,

Thank you for taking the time to consider my request and including other relevant links in the "See Also" section. I understand your concerns about my previous edits, and I apologize if I gave the impression of promoting a specific belief system rather than seeking to improve the article. I appreciate your suggestion to work on the history section and will consider it going forward. Regarding the inclusion of the Orthodox Bahai Faith link, while I understand your perspective that it may not be the most important link, I believe it deserves inclusion as it represents a distinct branch of the Bahai Faith and has historical and theological connections to the larger Bahai community. I really appreciate that you have included the Orthodox Baha'i Faith in the Outline of the Bahai Faith, however the Orthodox Baha'i Faith still deserves a place in the see only section. Asad29591 (talk) 17:05, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Dear Cuñado,

Thank you for sharing your personal perspective on my request to include a link to the Orthodox Bahai Faith in the "See Also" section of the Baha'i Faith Wikipedia page. I understand your concerns and appreciate your suggestions for other related articles.

I agree that an overview of related articles could include many different topics, such as the Baháʼí Esperanto League, FUNDAEC, World Religion Day, and the Baha'i Faith in different countries. These are all valuable and informative topics for readers to explore.

Regarding the Orthodox Bahai Faith, I understand that it is a smaller sect but that doesn't mean it deserves no space in the see only section. It cannot be denied that it has historical and theological connections to the mainstream Baha'i community, and its inclusion in the "See Also" section would provide readers with access to accurate and relevant information about related movements.

I apologize if my proposal was not framed objectively as an improvement to the article, but rather as an opportunity for more people to learn about my beliefs. My intention was to provide readers with a resource for learning more about the diversity within the Baha'i community, and I believe that including the Orthodox Bahai Faith in the "See Also" section would serve that purpose.

Thank you for your thoughtful consideration and input on this matter. Asad29591 (talk) 16:59, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Dear Gazelle55,

Thank you for your response to my request to include a "See Also" link for the Orthodox Bahai Faith on the Baha'i Faith Wikipedia page. I appreciate your willingness to consider including the link and understand your decision to replace it with Attempted schisms in the Baháʼí Faith.

I agree that Attempted schisms in the Baháʼí Faith is a more general topic and can provide readers with information on the historical attempts to break away from the main community. However, I still believe that including a specific link to the Orthodox Bahai Faith would provide readers with more direct and accurate information on this related movement.

Hence would request you to reconsider putting "Orthodox Baha'i Faith" also in the see only section. Asad29591 (talk) 16:49, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Dear Smkolins,

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my request to include the Orthodox Bahai Faith in the "See Also" section of the Baha'i Faith Wikipedia page. I appreciate your feedback and respect your assumption on the matter.

However, I respectfully disagree with your assessment that the Orthodox Bahai Faith has no relevance or importance to the larger Baha'i community. The Orthodox Bahai Faith is a sect of the Baha'i Faith that has historical and theological connections to the larger community, and its members continue to practice and follow their own distinct beliefs and practices.

I believe that it is important to recognize and acknowledge the diversity within the Baha'i community and provide readers with access to accurate and relevant information about related movements. Including a link to the Orthodox Bahai Faith in the "See Also" section would provide readers with a fuller understanding of the history and diversity of the Baha'i Faith.

I understand that you may have concerns about including a sect that has broken away from the main community, but I would like to emphasize that this is not an uncommon occurrence within religious communities. Furthermore, including the Orthodox Bahai Faith in the "See Also" section does not necessarily endorse or promote their beliefs or practices, but rather acknowledges their existence as a related movement within the larger Baha'i community.

I hope that you will reconsider your position on this matter and agree to include a link to the Orthodox Bahai Faith in the "See Also" section of the Baha'i Faith Wikipedia page. Thank you for your time and consideration. Asad29591 (talk) 16:47, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi Asad29591, yes I do agree that the OBF has historical and theological links to the mainstream Baha'i Faith, and so I agree with your broader point that it is related to the article. I'm not convinced it should be added, though, since there are other more prominent topics that are also related and deserve that space instead. You said to Cuñado that the other related articles could be added along with the OBF article, but we need to keep the size of the "see also" section to a reasonable length as per MOS:SEEALSO. There are already 16 links, and I would ask you to suggest which of those is less important than the OBF. No, 16 is not a hard limit, but even if we were to increase that number somewhat, I don't think the OBF would be first in line to be added. There are so many improvements that could be made to articles on the Baha'i Faith and yet it seems you're really fixating on this one minor change, which (like almost all your edits) just happens to help promote your personal views. Gazelle55 ^{Let's talk!} 18:36, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Dear Gazelle55,

Thank you for your reply and your explanation of your reasoning. I respect your opinion, but I still disagree with your assessment of the importance and relevance of the Orthodox Bahai Faith link. I think that this topic is not a minor or trivial one, but rather a significant and interesting one for the readers who want to learn more about the diversity and history of the Bahai Faith. I also think that this topic is not a personal or biased one, but rather a factual and neutral one that is supported by reliable sources.

I understand your concern about the size of the "see also" section, but I don't think that adding one more link would make it too long or cluttered. I also don't think that adding this link would imply removing any other link, as they are all relevant and informative in their own ways. However, if you insist on keeping the number of links to 16, I would suggest removing the link to Baháʼí Faith and science, as I think that this topic is less directly related to the main article than the Orthodox Bahai Faith. This is just my suggestion, and I'm open to hearing other opinions.

I hope you can reconsider your decision and restore the link to the Orthodox Bahai Faith in the "see also" section of the Bahai Faith Wikipedia page. I think that this would be a fair and constructive way to improve the quality and comprehensiveness of the article. I also hope you can understand that I'm not fixating on this one change or trying to promote my personal views, but rather trying to contribute to Wikipedia's mission of providing free and accurate information to everyone.

As we seem to have reached an impasse on this issue, I would like to propose requesting comments from other editors who are knowledgeable or interested in the topic, either on the talk page or on a relevant noticeboard or WikiProject. This is a way to seek input from a broader community of editors on an issue that affects one or more articles. If you agree to this proposal, we can request comments on Wikipedia:Requests for comment. Thank you for your attention and cooperation. Asad29591 (talk) 13:31, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi Asad29591, we don't have hard criteria for what constitutes a more important "see also" link, but I don't think the Orthodox Baháʼí Faith page is more important. Honestly, I might normally just add the link to settle the issue, but there has been an ongoing pattern of you picking some very minor issue relating to the OBF and starting a protracted dispute about it, so I'm holding out against this change. I've said many times that I do think there are POV issues on Wikipedia's Baháʼí Faith pages, but I don't think this is one of them. Anyway, you've heard my thoughts – this seems to be really important to you, so feel free to start an RfC if you wish. Gazelle55 ^{Let's talk!} 15:40, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi Gazelle55, thank you for your response. I appreciate your honesty and your acknowledgment of the POV issues on Wikipedia’s Baháʼí Faith pages where mainstream Baha'is come and dominate and try to portray other sects as covenant breakers. I agree that we don’t have hard criteria for what constitutes a more important “see also” link, but I still think that the Orthodox Baháʼí Faith page is relevant and notable enough to be included. I don’t think that this is a very minor issue, but rather a matter of providing comprehensive and accurate information to the readers. I also don’t think that I’m picking protracted disputes about the OBF, but rather trying to address the gaps and biases that I see on Wikipedia’s Baháʼí Faith pages.

As we seem to have reached an impasse on this issue, I would like to follow your suggestion and start an RfC to seek input from a broader community of editors on this issue. I hope that this will help us resolve this dispute in a constructive and civil way. Thank you for your attention and cooperation. Asad29591 (talk) 01:02, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Lead summary

this addition is good, but I feel like it should be in article and not in the lead. The lead should be extremely concise. Any thoughts? Cuñado ☼ - Talk 18:31, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Some of that is already in the body but some of it would be a good addition. Gazelle55 ^{Let's talk!} 03:53, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Agreed though I'll note the editor added a source, so not to loose track of that. I noticed a ton of wikilinking done in recent edits that seems overly enthusiastic though the copyediting seemed very good. Smkolins (talk) 18:22, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Inclusion of a photo of Baha'u'llah?

Hello friends! I removed the included image of Baha'u'llah, as the 2005 decision ruled that it is vandalism to include it on this page (although it is permitted on the Baha'u'llah page). However, the very cool and good-faith @Smkolins pointed out it would make more sense to have consensus before making such a change. Education-over-easy (talk) 23:37, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

See Talk:Baháʼu'lláh#Full name and photo. The conclusion: Broad consensus for inclusion of the photograph at the top of the article following MOS:LEADIMAGE and no strong policy argument not to do so; WP:Gratuitous is mentioned but the consensus is that this image does add sufficient value to the article regardless of any potential for offence.

The discussion was a bit chaotic, but the consensus from 2005 is no longer relevent. If you have a proposal, you could propose an RFC for a change, but you need to have a policy-based proposal. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 00:05, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

That 18 year old discussion is of no relevance in 2023. Wikipedia is not censored, and there is no policy-based reason to exclude the photo. Cullen328 (talk) 00:09, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

RfC on adding Orthodox Baha'i Faith link in the see only section of The Baha'i Faith page

This is a request for comment on whether the Orthodox Baháʼí Faith should be included in the see also section of the Baháʼí Faith article. The Orthodox Baháʼí Faith is a Baha'i sect that believes in the continuation of the Guardianship of the Baháʼí Faith after Shoghi Effendi. The mainstream Baháʼís consider them as Covenant-breakers and do not recognize their legitimacy. The dispute is about whether the link to the Orthodox Baháʼí Faith Wikipedia page is relevant and notable enough to be included in the see also section. The discussion on the talk page has reached an impasse, with one editor arguing for inclusion and another editor arguing for removal. Please provide your opinions on this issue and help resolve this dispute. Thank you.--Asad29591 (talk) 01:30, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose inclusion of link. The Orthodox Bahá'í sect is less than a hundred members, while the mainstream Bahá'í Faith is several million members. Including a link to the former would give them undue weight. Bowler the Carmine | talk 20:09, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose see long conversation above #Inclusion of Orthodox Bahai Faith in the 'See Also' Section. Copying my previous comment here: "WP:UNDUE: Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all. Orthodox Baha'is are an extreme minority (generously, 100 out of 5 million, or 0.002%) and may be almost defunct. Independent sources generally don't even mention them when covering the Baha'i Faith. Asad29591, you've spent the last two years trying to promote your beliefs here. WP:PROMOTION: You might wish to start a blog or visit a forum if you want to convince people of the merits of your opinions." I'll add that there are numerous better options to add to See Also. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 22:07, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. Readers can find the page; it is not being concealed. Pursuing an interest in the history of the faith and its minor schisms surfaces the link pretty readily. There is essentially no doctrinal difference between the large and small sects. A see also link would be undue. Regulov (talk) 13:44, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per Cuñado. — Charles Stewart (talk) 07:32, 14 May 2023 (UTC)