Talk:Bo Xilai

Lack of Objectiveness in Language?

"Known for his good looks, articulate speech, open-minded work ethic, and a generally liberal outlook, Bo's phenomenal rise from a municipal official to the Central government has been of great media attention and has since elevated his status to that of a political star. The archetype of a politician Bo presents is seldom seen with a generally serious and conservative leadership in Beijing. He has a reputation of a Kennedy-esque figure, his charisma known to media from the Mainland, Hong Kong, and even abroad."

It is unsourced, and seems irrelevant. Thoughts? Kunoichi 4 (talk) 14:46, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Some of this is now sourced, but I would really like to know where the author of this paragraph got the rest of this information. It is consistent with how Bo is often portrayed publicly. Noting Bo's public persona is important because it relates to his relationship with the public, the media, and other senior members of the CCP.Ferox Seneca (talk) 02:30, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

From "Minister of Commerce" to "CCP Secretary of Chongqing"?

That's a huge demotion~! What happened? Anybody? TheAsianGURU (talk) 04:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Might be all the lawsuits he's getting for genocide of Falun Gong practitioners?--Asdfg12345 01:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so. The CCP doesn't care that much about that. I think it's more like corruption or "ethics" stuff (aka relationship w/ short skirts secretaries, etc etc). Might be worth looking into it. I don't know, his political career might even end here. TheAsianGURU (talk) 04:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not a demotion. In fact, he was raised to the Politburo just before he received this position. Chongquing is arguably the largest municipality in the world; it is not a place to put the disgraced or the incompetent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronald Collinson (talk • contribs) 12:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I like how you put ethics in quotation marks! But I thought this kind of thing was commonplace and even less to prick an eyebrow? I was also under the impression that the CCP is shaking in its boots over these cases. After Bo got a default judgement against him in a relatively recent case in Australia, where he was being sued for torture, the CCP got Australian immigration department to intervene in later cases and request immunity for the people who were getting sued--this happened soon after. These guys are also traveling around less as the cases get pushed forward; I guess time will tell.--Asdfg12345 05:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Bo is very high up, (well, was...) and on the track to be a star. You can see the praises of propaganda sites everywhere. He must have tons of emeries. Something big must had happened, so that someone in the party, poked out all kinds of "ethics"/corruption problems against him. Otherwise, in order to bring down the Son of Bo Yibo, you better do your homework. Honey traps are minor, but I wanna point out 1 thing tho --- His kid, Bo GuaGua (薄瓜瓜), went to Harrow school and now studying at Oxford. How can Bo afford to send his kid to Harrow is still a question. Besides, the kid got way too much attention --- He went on photo shoots for varies magazines, including Esquire and stuff. This must got tons of hates from ppl. Well, we will see.

http://i22.tinypic.com/23ifrtc.jpg

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/chinas-blue-bloods-ignore-call-of-politics/2007/02/09/1170524304074.html (Aus. Newspaper Reporting, check it out) TheAsianGURU (talk) 05:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

"In the People's Republic of China, a Party Committee Secretary, colloquially termed a party chief (党委书记), is the most prominent regional Communist Party leadership office, usually the number-one figure in their respective regions. For example, Yu Zhengsheng, the Communist Party Shanghai Committee Secretary, is the city's highest ranked leader, higher than the mayor." "Chongqing is the largest and most populous of the People's Republic of China's four provincial-level municipalities" Take a look at past Ministers of Commerce and you would see that they serve between either 3 or 5 years. Bo served his 3 and naturally goes to serve somewhere else. His current post of Secretary of Chongqing is hardly a demotion. Hanfresco (talk) 08:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Sure, Party Committee Secretary, sure Chongqing, sure 4 municipalities, sure…etc etc. The central committee is a place that every single CCP member wanna get in. It’s every Chinese bureaucrat’s dream to get in there. Bo was there (almost), he was born w/ the “Red Revolution Blood”, he is well connected, his family is powerful, heck, many people even think he is good looking. Just take a look – Guangzhou, Shanghai, Beijing, Tianjing, Shenzhen, Zhuhai, Chongqing, all these are the most powerful cities in China. How many of these “party secretaries” actually made to the central Committee? Any provincial official would tell you that they would trade everything to go to the central government. Bo himself came from Dalian, not a bad start, one of the most important cities in Manchuria. So according to the “unofficial party rule” that he “has” the “local experience” already, sending him back to any provincial government is surely a demotion. Of course, I don’t think he will stay in Chongqing forever, he is there to stay out of sight, to go “low profile” for a while, then when the time is right, he will come back. (I think) TheAsianGURU (talk) 19:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

You obviously have a great deal of knowledge on the inner minds of China's most powerful politicians (sarcasm btw) and you already have the preconceived notion that regular party shuffling is a form of demotion. Bo is doing important work wherever he goes and whatever he does. Saying he is where he is purely because of his family and connections is disrespectful to not only Bo, but all of China. You too, should take a look at holders of important posts. Many have served in different parts of the country. China is a vast country and it is ridiculous to think one area is representative of her in entirety. In your future mature discussions, do not dismiss other people's arguments with a simple "sure". To prove other people wrong and to prove yourself right, you proud evidence that support yourself. So far the only thing you've convinced me of is that you often make assumptions and like to guess. You only needed to direct me to Political position ranking of the People's Republic of China page where it is clearly shown that ministry heads are ranked higher than provincial party chiefs to convince me. Hanfresco (talk) 03:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to convince you. The only thing I said was – “I disagree.” As far as I can see - You guess as much as I do. I posted the question here to ask people to share their POVs on issues, that's all. TheAsianGURU (talk) 18:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The post of Mayor of Chongqing isn't a low-profile position, but is considered a less-prestigious position than Minister of Commerce, and Bo himself must have been hoping to move higher within the central government. Among the people I know who follow internal Chinese politics closely, this is considered a sort of demotion that is not serious enough to cause a serious loss of face. The main cause of Bo's move to Chongqing is usually cited as the number of serious consumer-quality issues that occurred (and were widely reported by the international media) during his term in office, and a general dissatisfaction among the more senior leadership with how Bo handled these issues. Suggestions that Bo moved to Chongqing because of anything to do with Fulan Gong are ridiculous and imply a poorly-informed interpretation of Chinese politics.Ferox Seneca (talk) 08:10, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Anyone, and everyone who is interested in the inner working of Chinese communist system should read this book:The Party: The Secret World of China's Communist Rulers. Arilang ^talk 08:54, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Coolcool. I'll have to add it to the list.Ferox Seneca (talk) 01:49, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Bo's role in the persecution of Falun Gong

Highly notable: The High Price of Diplomacy With China--Asdfg12345 01:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

His Son,

Recent featured on BBC News showing corruption and how a modest politburo member could afford to send his son to Oxford University. Plus, who wrote that he was expelled? The links are:

http://search.tianya.cn/shareview.jsp?id=5f0c3a973d5bb366f3856f05a78fa0ac http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2009/05/oxford-star-bo-guagua-scoops-top-award-in-britain/ http://chinadigitaltimes.net/china/bo-xilai/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/jamesreynolds/2009/06/conflict_of_party_and_private.html#comments

Im not sure how to fit them in, sorry guys --CorrectlyContentious 17:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I added the "CN" Tag...I wanna know if he was really expelled also. The links above are not RS. Most of them are saying things like "I heard it from a friend" or "My friend who is at Oxford" or "Blah blah blah told me". Nah, doesn't work like that. TheAsianGURU (talk) 22:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Really suspicious

how all the additional links at the bottom lead to FLG websites. It's really quite infuriating how the FLG members have hijacked countless Chinese-related articles, yet still have their bullshit propaganda quoted as legitimate sources on Wikipedia.

Don't you all have something better to do, like burning yourselves to death? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.159.247 (talk) 03:39, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

IP editor 68.149.159.247, please read Wikipedia:Reliable sources :Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant-minority views that have appeared in reliable, published sources are covered;

1. Jiang Weiping is a world famous Chinese reporter who had been thrown into jail by none other than Bo Xilai, because Jiang knows too much dark secrets of Bo and even dare to publish the secrets, so I would not call them bullshit propaganda. Arilang ^talk 23:26, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

The truth is somewhere in between. Jiang Weiping does have a grudge against Bo, that much is for sure. As far as I can tell he is not against the Communist Party itself like the Epoch Times, but has certainly partnered with them because they all seem to be critical of some part of the CPC bureaucracy. In any case, I would warn against using Jiang's sources unless it is clearly stated who he is and that he is writing on behalf of the Epoch Times - a newspaper that does not have a shred of credibility. Colipon+(Talk) 00:40, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Colipon, please remember Wikipedia is not about Truth or Lies, True or false, it is about Reliable and verifiable. And your comment Epoch Times - a newspaper that does not have a shred of credibility is highly questionable, to say the least, and is there any difference if he is writing for The New York Times or The Epoch Times? Arilang ^talk 01:08, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Arilang, are you serious? How many does Epoch Times have to be discredited before you admit that they are not a reliable news source? NYT and Epoch Times are the two extremes of good and bad journalism that you can possibly find. Are you serious in your claims that they could be possibly put into the same level? Have you ever read Epoch Times? Go on it now and read some of their BS.192.17.205.72 (talk) 17:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Kristof NYT piece

On the topic of Falun Gong, here are some fairly heavy words from The New York Times China's Donkey Droppings By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF Published: December 1, 2004

So what are China's new leaders, Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao, really like? Are they visionaries who are presiding over the greatest explosion of wealth the world has ever known? Or are they ruthless thugs who persecute Christians, Falun Gong adherents, labor leaders and journalists in a desperate attempt to maintain their dictatorship?

Jiang Weiping

China Releases Investigative Reporter Whose Jailing Had Upset U.S. By Philip P. Pan Washington Post Foreign Service

Jiang Weiping, a former bureau chief for the Hong Kong newspaper Wen Hui Bao, was arrested in December 2000 after writing a series of articles for the magazine Frontline that exposed corruption among senior officials in the northeastern province of Liaoning. He was then sentenced to eight years in prison on charges of revealing state secrets and inciting subversion. A higher court later reduced the sentence to six years. Jiang also reported that one of the Communist Party's rising stars, Bo Xilai, covered up corruption among friends and relatives during his years as mayor of the city of Dalian. Bo, who is the son of the party elder Bo Yibo, was serving as the Liaoning governor when Jiang's reports were published, and is now China's trade minister.

“ Jiang's reporting uncovered several corruption scandals involving high-level officials, including such well-connected leaders as Bo Xilai, governor of Liaoning province and son of Communist Party elder Bo Yibo.

http://cpj.org/awards/2001/jiang.php

”

Arilang ^talk 12:59, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

The story of Jiang Weiping is well-known and has been widely reported within the mainstream Western media and by nonprofit organizations representing the interests of international journalists. I don't know anything about his relationships with either Fulan Gong or media related to Fulan Gong, but the basic facts of his life and career have been openly reported by non-Fulan Gong sources.

http://www.cpj.org/blog/2009/02/a-twisting-road-to-canada-for-a-chinese-journalist.php

Ferox Seneca (talk) 06:14, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Resignation from Politburo?

Rumors are swirling that Bo has offered to resign his Politburo position in light of the Wang Lijun scandal.[1] This is still hearsay at this point, but it may develop quickly. We should keep an eye on it.Homunculus (duihua) 02:54, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Seeing as how the New York Times had already reported this, it doesn't really matter whether this is hearsay or factual... verifiability takes precedence. Colipon+(Talk) 04:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I saw that, but unless I'm missing something, the NYTimes piece doesn't make it clear which position he offered to resign from (Chongqing party chief or Politburo member).Homunculus (duihua) 04:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

March 2012

It's good to see this page getting more attention of late, though there's still quite a bit that can be improved upon. When I have more time I'd like to make some more substantive proposals and/or edits, but in the interim, I'd like to propose abandoning referenced to the political "right." Bo may represent the new left, but the opposite of the new left is not the right. Moreover, use of these terms is profoundly confusing to Western audiences uninitiated in Chinese politics. Most readers will invariably fail to understand how left=conservative in China, or that the opposite of the left are the progressives and would-be reformers.Homunculus (duihua) 06:29, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Rather than redact references to the 'right' because people might not understand it, wouldn't the better approach be to link it to the relevant articles (or to create relevant articles) that would explain this distinction? Also, with a bit of digging one finds that the Chinese political spectrum is really not all that different from that of elsewhere in the world - Left means generally means socialism, redistribution of wealth, high public spending, high taxation, Right means market-economics, less government regulations, lower taxation, low public spending. It just happens that China's 'status quo' was the statist 'left' model, and thus to maintain the status quo is to be 'conservative'. Colipon+(Talk) 22:53, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Uh, well, first, the sources that are used on the page don't classify Bo's opponents as the political right. Nor should they. Bo, in spite of his statist, populist policies, belong's to the faction of 'elitists' (ei. the Jiang faction, or the princelings), which advanced policies leading to unequal growth and promoted private enterprise in the first place. The opposing faction is commonly known as the populists (The Hu faction / the Tuanpai, which, in a general sense, is more representative of the new left). In their tenure, Hu and Wen promoted wealth redistribution and strengthened state-owned enterprises (often at the expense of the private sector). A more accurate characterization would be to contrast Bo to the liberals or reformers within the party. This is still reductionist, of course, just as any other attempt to distill Chinese factional politics into some kind of neat binary opposition, but it's better than left v. right. On another note, are you serious about creating a page to explain this? I don't envy the editors who would have to wade through that mess. Homunculus (duihua) 16:33, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

You are absolutely right that this should not be portrayed as solely a left-right divide, but it has been portrayed as such by numerous Chinese and foreign media sources - particularly the war of words between Wang Yang and Bo Xilai. I don't think the left-right issue should be the focus at any point in the article, but it should be mentioned in passing. Colipon+(Talk) 16:39, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

How about we create a section titled something like "political alignment," where Bo's positions, ideology, and factional affiliations can be summarized.Homunculus (duihua) 22:34, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that is the approach that I wanted to take as well - somewhat akin to a "political positions" portion of a US politician - it would mean, however, a drastic overhaul of the section currently called "political positions and ambitions". We need to maintain some sort of chronological order in the lead-up of the Wang Lijun scandal. Colipon+(Talk) 23:29, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

I have made an attempt, but there is more to be done. In the process, I gutted much of the previous section that contained remnant, unsourced opinions, and moved some of the relevant content into the new section on political alignment and affiliations. Take a look, let me know what you think.Homunculus (duihua) 00:52, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Hom, your section on Bo's political views are very well-written! Great work! I do think, however, that his 'leftist' credentials need a bit more elaboration. In particular his 'cake' theory and his opposition to Wang Yang (which is very well-sourced) should be reinserted into that section. Also, I hope you don't mind moving that section to the bottom of the page as is the template on most other 'politician' articles. Colipon+(Talk) 01:03, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Cake is undeniably important. I don't know what the structure of the article should be. I'll defer to your judgement for now.Homunculus (duihua) 01:09, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm very happy with where the article has been going with our collaboration. I think we can take it to GA, even. Colipon+(Talk) 03:36, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Of course we should make the article as good as possible, but I'm not sure about the viability of achieving GA status right now, given how fast the situation is evolving. If we were to accomplish this, we would need to keep close watch of developments to ensure it remains up-to-date and of a high quality. Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't aim for GA. Just that we need not rush into it, lest we succumb to recentism. Speaking of evolving stories, it appears there is now a concerted crackdown on Maoist revivalism,[2] and new revelations about the catalysts for the Wang Lijun defection attempt.[3][4] Homunculus (duihua) 04:39, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm fascinated to look over this article, especially since I was reading about Xilai in the American papers recently and didn't know the background to his political "fall." I'll spend more time in the coming days, but I'll mention a couple of my impressions right now, for the two of you and for others working on this article.

First, I sometimes have the impression that the article is written by two groups of editors, because some paragraphs look like they might have been written by a PR campaign manager, and others by those critical of him. The following three paragraphs are illustrative of the first type of writing:

Described in the Asia Times as good-looking, articulate and open-minded in his approach to problems, Bo's rise from a municipal official to the central government generated great media fanfare and elevated his status to something of a 'political star.' Bo's political persona was considered a departure from the generally serious and conservative leadership in Beijing. With his youthful vigour, populism, and purported popularity with female reporters, Bo's political rise had been compared to that of John F. Kennedy. He became a darling of the media both in China and abroad.

Bo's term as Minister of Commerce saw a continued rise in foreign investment. His daily schedule was dominated with receiving foreign guests and dignitaries. By the time that he held the position of Minister of Commerce, he spoke relatively fluent and colloquial English, much to the delight of his guests, who were accustomed to dealing with translators. In May 2004 Bo was one of the few hand-picked Ministers to accompany Premier Wen Jiabao on a five-country trip to Europe. The trade policy of the United States toward China also sparked significant controversy, during which Bo kept a cool head as he attended talks in Washington.

Bo also oversaw the restructuring of the Ministry, whose formation was the result of the amalgamation of the National Economics and Commerce Bureau and the Department of International Trade. Bo sought to balance the amount of attention given to foreign investors and domestic commercial institutions. He began tackling the imbalance from the retail sector, whose success was largely dependent on foreign companies. He drew out plans to protect Chinese industries so they would not lose their place inside the Chinese market.

Much of the language above ("good looks... articulate... open-minded... youthful vigour... populism... popularity with female reporters... darling of the media... delight of his guests... kept a cool head... tackling imbalance from the retail sector...") is repetitious and doesn't feel encyclopedic.

Secondly, all these statements above have only one source, if they have any. I noticed that at one point Bo Xilai's tenure was described as free of corruption allegations, and this statement was followed by a sourced paragraph on allegations of corruption.

Would anyone mind if I took these kinds of paragraphs to the chopping block? I don't doubt that there may be truth buried in these various statements, but these assertions need to be referenced and written with a neutral tone.

Am looking forward to contributing! All best, -Darouet (talk) 13:40, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for looking those over. Actually, those specific paragraphs were written a long time ago, prior to the proliferation of sourcing policies on WP. I agree perhaps a more neutral tone is necessary. I have added a source to that section - a Chinese language article from 2005. It was an admittedly sympathetic piece, but there's little else out there that goes into detail about Bo's tenure as Commerce Minister. Colipon+(Talk) 16:46, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Quick suggestion: we may want to consider including a section that deals specifically with Bo's public image, and the media accounts of his character and style. His personality is among his main sources of notability, after all. Homunculus (duihua) 22:26, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

22 March

An editor is removing allegations of impropriety and torture, saying in edit summaries that these allegations are fringe, etc.[5] I'm seriously tired of editors (always the same ones) deleting credible reports of human rights abuses. Bo was indicted for genocide in Spain, and found guilty of torture (by default judgement) in Australia. These lawsuits were cited by Wen Jiabao as a reason Bo should be ineligible for promotion. Yet Shrigley has changed this paragraph to read simply that "Adherents of the banned Falun Gong movement have filed several unsuccessful international lawsuits against Bo for overseeing the suppression of the group in Liaoning"—an edit that is patently misleading. Other sources allege Bo was involved in organ harvesting. This is to say nothing of serious corruption allegations. Reliable sources have reported on these things, they are notable, and they deserve more than passing mention. As to Wikileaks as a SPS, I raised this question on another page once, and was pointed to a RS discussion that concluded that these documents can be used. Homunculus (duihua) 21:49, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Let's not personalize our comments, or induce editing patterns based on prejudice. I likewise tire of followers of small religiopolitical movements adding large amounts of poorly-sourced protest material to the biographies of provincial Chinese officials, but my feelings are irrelevant to the discussion.

Wikileaks' being an SPS does not mean that we cannot use it entirely. However, we should note that "if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so": preferably somebody with the relevant expertise for the weighty question of why Bo was moved to Chongqing. Reading the cable, the need for context about Wen's comment is apparent. "Bo's move to Chongqing puts an ambitious, arrogant and widely disliked competitor for a top position in a trouble-filled position far from Beijing... Wen's arguments found fertile soil among officials who still harbor resentment against Bo for his treatment of his family--particularly his father--during the Cultural Revolution (1966-76)." By using Wikileaks as a primary source, we are acting as historians and answering the complex question of "why was Bo moved from a national position to Chongqing" with a simple and tendentious answer: "because he persecuted Falun Gong". No doubt this reasoning makes sense to practitioners, but Falun Gong was never a major part of the narrative told by the reams of reliable secondary sources produced on this man.

I will defend my description of the lawsuits as "unsuccessful". First, the article on the Australia "default judgment" noted the dozens of frivolous lawsuits that Falun Gong followers had filed in similarly irrelevant jurisdictions. Second, it quotes an Australian law professor as saying that Bo is immune from the judgment by Australian law, and that Bo would not even dignify the lawsuit by invoking such an immunity. Likewise, the decision made in absentia against a broad range of Chinese officials by an eccentric Spanish judge had no practical consequences for Bo that reliable sources note, either personally or professionally.

On the Jiang Weiping issue, there is no need to survey Jiang's life and career in this article; he even has his own article. His corruption-related allegations must be given appropriate weight, against our sources that say there were few corruption complaints, and that Bo is perceived as clean and aggressively anti-graft. So we can note Jiang's contrarianism in a sentence, and readers can follow the footnote if they wish, but it is not appropriate to repeat the allegations in detail, as if they had widespread currency outside of the Epoch Times rumor mill.

If you have reliable sources that assert great significance to Falun Gong in this man's life story, then produce them for discussion. But despite the high visibility of this slanderous material in what should be a conservatively written biography over the past few days, my internet news search has produced no such results. May you be more successful than I! Shrigley (talk) 00:43, 23 March 2012 (UTC)