Talk:Cat

Big cats a thing of the past?

The big cats have been removed from the entire lede. Not very encyclopedic. Would like to suggest a mention in the first paragraph of the big cats, with appropriate links to Big cat, tiger, and lion. Doesn't have to be long, but at least mentioning and linking to them, probably aftert the sentence which ends "of the family...". Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:12, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

THIS page is about the domestic cat. But none of the big cats is domestic. I think, we had this discussion already. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 19:24, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Then it should be named domestic cat, where I threw in with trying to avoid that in the previous discussion. Because a tiger is a cat, a lion is a cat, etc., and by saying that the word 'Cat' means only 'domestic cat' has Wikipedia changing the meaning of the word. I'll add a few links to balance it out, and that should cover the topic. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:11, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Which of these is how you would describe this image??

https://natgeo.imgix.net/factsheets/thumbnails/siberian-tiger-and-house-cat.jpg?auto=compress,format&w=1024&h=560&fit=crop

1. The animal on the left is a cat; the animal on the right is a tiger.
2. The animal on the left is a domestic cat; the animal on the right is a cat.

Which of these descriptions do you think most people should use?? Georgia guy (talk) 22:39, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

This discussion has been had before. This article is about the domestic cat, which in the vernacular is referred to as the cat. No one talks about having a domestic cat as a pet. Wikipedia policy prefers common names for article titles. Either way, big cats are not especially relevant to the article topic and are covered by saying cats belong to the family Felidae.

There is an issue with the phrase "The cat is either a house cat or a farm cat, which are pets, or a feral cat ..." in opening paragraph. Are farm cats considered pets or working cats? Most pet cats are not house cats, which usually refers to pet cats that are kept indoors, but dictionaries seem to differ on this.   Jts1882 | talk  07:47, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

I don't think that a farm cat is considered a working cat. But it is not a pet either. I'll reformulate this sentence; please change as you deem fit. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 09:35, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

A farm cat is considered both a working cat and a pet.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 09:40, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

They are beloved "pets" to many. They just happen to have an active hunting range. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:46, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Very few people know what 'Felide' means (let alone how to spell it without looking at it). Leaving just one tiny link in the sentence, just big cats, not only allows understanding but gives another article besides Cat and Felidae (I looked above how to spell it) to cover the entire subject (emphasis on "entire") Cat. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:44, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

For those who don't (yet) know it, there is a link to that page!! And btw: there are 40 species of wild (ie. not domesticated) cats, no need to select just a few that YOU happen to know -- BhagyaMani (talk) 15:34, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

BhagyaMani reversed my small edit of adding Big cats, an acceptable topic and stand-alone page, with the edit summary "as already mentioned in the about tag this page is NOT about the family of cats, but about the *domestic cat*" (my cyber ears are ringing from the shout). Again, as I said above, I really don't want this page named 'Domestic cat' but to leave it at 'Cat'. The very brief addition of 'Big cats' to the lede solves that problem, as it is an important stand-alone recognizably named page which includes the word 'Cat'. The template is named {{Domestic cat}}, let's not have to rename the entire page. Can someone step in and override this WP:OWN. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:44, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

• I've added back the big cat link to the lede due to the RM and close at list of largest cats. Several editors mentioned renaming this page to domestic cat, something I've said many times on this page I wouldn't want to see happen. But if the large cats are excluded from the lede by page-sitters I'd have to support such a move. Hopefully it can be prevented with a little more common sense and a touch less page ownership issues. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:25, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

• ...and reversed again. Here is the sentence in question, to which I added the last five words before the reversal: "It is the only domesticated species in the family Felidae and often referred to as the domestic cat to distinguish it from wild members of the family, such as the big cats." Common sense would say "Of course" it is good edit, as it helps build the encyclopedic knowledge of the topic and differentiates the topic 'Cat' from the larger cats. This ongoing discussion is limited so far (and "scat, shoo, go away" I keep hearing from one editor who seems to shout at me every time they communicate), but there was a larger audience at the completed RM for List of largest cats. I'll ping two of them, SMcCandlish and Ahecht, to enlarge this discussion a bit concerning the addition of the five words "such as the big cats". If a full Rfc is put up I'd be concerned that the page may be renamed Domestic cat, which I have clearly said I don't want to happen unless the big cats are inexplicably shut out from the lede paragraph (and no, the uncommon word "Felidae" doesn't work standing alone, per it being unrecognizable to even the spelling program). Randy Kryn (talk) 18:59, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

This has some up enough times in enough different exact forms and venues of debate that it's probably reasonable to want to disambiguate. While there is a hatnote these are often not noticed, and there's no harm in adding something like "such as the big cats" to the opening material. Per WP:REUSE, our article content needs to make perfect sense on its own, even in print and even when divorced from all navigation and WP:SELFREF material (including hatnotes with explicit cross-references). I have previously suggested moving this article to domestic cat, and while the RM did not meet with success at that time, quite a lot of time has passed, more concerns about ambiguity have been raised, and consensus can change. In particular, the last time I nominated this, there was pervasive misunderstanding (long since mostly corrected) mistaking WP:COMMONNAME as not only one of the WP:CRITIERIA but chief among them. It is neither; it's simply the default first choice (based mostly on the actual criterion WP:RECOGNIZABLE) to test against all of those criteria, all other applicable policies and guidelines, and common sense. I have to think there is nothing at all un-recognizable about "domestic cat", which is a very common and WP:PRECISE term, and is obviously the most common in any situation in which just "cat" by itself could be ambiguous. Today, WP fairly frequently does not have an article at literally the most common name, in various cases where doing so can lead to ambiguity and other confusion. So a re-RM may finally be in order (I would not commingle this with others, though, like dog → domestic dog because "dog" is not nearly as often used in a sense that encompasses non-domesticated species). PS: I just did a cleanup pass on the article to normalize the citation mess, etc.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:07, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Sounds like there are three separate issues here:

1. Should the article about domestic cats mention big cats in the lead?
2. Should the Cat article be about domestic cats or all cats?
3. Should there be a three-way Cat → Domestic cat and Felidae → Cat move?

On the first question, I can think of no legitimate reason why an article about domestic cats cannot mention big cats as a form of contrast. Adding Randy's such as the big cats is a no-brainer, completely separate from the other questions. On the second and third questions, the terms "domestic cat" and "house cat" are so commonly used and WP:RECOGNIZABLE that I think there may be a strong argument for implementing either, although I like the three-way move option from a WP:PRECISE standpoint. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 21:52, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

On #1, the criticism repeatedly raised is why single out big cats, an arbitrary and ambiguous category, and not pick out other groups of cats, small cats or medium-sized cat or small cats, lynxes or ocelots. If something is to be added it should try to list represent members of the whole family, not such big ones (e.g. "such as tiger, ocelot, lynx and cheetah").

On #3, I have no objection to using domestic cat for the article. This is the common name used for the species in scientific literature (unlike the dog where dog is used; domestic dog is rarer). House cat is a poor title as it is ambiguous. However, I think the change unnecessary as most people looking for cat would be expecting an article on domestic cats or cat breeds. If searching for the cat family, a search using cat (singlular) would be an unusual. And while cats (plural) is more likely, cat family is a far more likely search choice. As a result I'd argue cat should redirect to domestic cat if the change is made.

On another note, any one interested in big cats should fix that article. It is not usually another name for the Panthera species or the roaring cats. While it recognises wider groupings it doesn't properly reflect how big cats has been used traditionally.   Jts1882 | talk  09:07, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Re Ahecht's question#1: I don't see any benefit in adding a link to a page that is completely irrelevant for the definition of this species, the domestic cat. The link to the Felidae is justified, and one to the Felinae, i.e. the small wild cats, would also be. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 19:37, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Re #2: at present, it IS about the domestic cat, and imo, should NOT be expanded to all the cat species. That's the purpose of the Felidae page. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 19:37, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Re #3: I would agree to a move of Cat > Domestic cat, if that puts a definite end to this discussion about stray links. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 19:37, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2020

In the Evolution Section, Domestication subsection, please correct this sentence:

"As there is no evidence of native mammalian fauna on Cyprus"

to

"As there is no evidence of native felids on Cyprus"

In reality there are several native mammals on Cyprus: the genet Genetta plesictoides, the dwarf hippo Phanourios or Hippopotamus minor, the Cyprus dwarf elephant Palaeoloxodon cypriotes, the spiny mouse Acomys nesiotes, and the mouse Mus cypriacus. Most are extinct now, but they absolutely were native. Cyprus also has a possibly native fox subspecies Vulpes vulpes indutus.

See this publication: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237049960_A_Late_Pleistocene_endemic_genet_Carnivora_Viverridae_from_Aghia_Napa_Cyprus for the genet and a general summary of Cypriot native mammals.

2601:441:467F:9E00:489D:D076:2E5A:72DF (talk) 00:48, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Quoting from that journal article, where a shrew and bat(s) are also mentioned, but the fox is not:

Cyprus, as an oceanic island that was separated from the mainland for a very long time, has yielded a greatly impoverished endemic fauna (Bate 1904, Boekschoten and Sondaar 1972, Reese 1995). The main element is a dwarf hippopotamus, Phanourios minor (Desmarest 1822), known from more than 30 sites on the island (Forsyth Major 1902, Bate 1906, Boekschoten and Sondaar 1972, Reese 1995, Reese in Simmons 1999: p.162). Another common endemic species is Elephas cypriotes Bate 1903, a dwarf elephant (Bate 1903b, 1905). Some scanty elephant remains of somewhat larger size than E. cypriotes may represent another endemic elephant species (Boekschoten and Sondaar 1972). Other, generally quite sparse, findings include the afore mentioned genet Genetta plesictoides, as well as some not well known small mammals: one or two species of murid rodents (Mus sp.), one or two species of bats and a soricid insectivore (Crocidura suaveolens) (Boekschoten and Sondaar 1972, Reese 1995). Endemic fossil deer, a common element in other Mediterranean insular faunas, have not been found on the island.

2601:441:467F:9E00:489D:D076:2E5A:72DF (talk) 00:53, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 March 2020

remove the newline character between "contact." and "Domestic" in the first section. it has no reason being there. change the newline character to a space. Miumii2 (talk) 04:56, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

 Done JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 05:19, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

My photo edits

I'm guessing by the edit notice that the addition of photos has been quite controversial in the past. I decided to move pictures around to make it more visually pleasing to the reader; keep in mind most people who read Wikipedia will never edit. I took away two photos/multiple photo templates because they were just hanging off the end of the page; if someone expands the article, I'd imagine they'd add the photos back. I don't intend to cause further controversy. --I dream of horses (t) (c) Remember to {{ping}} me after replying off my talk page 08:02, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Contradictory information

"Queens normally reach sexual maturity at 5–10 months, and males at 5–7 months. This varies depending on breed. Kittens reach puberty at the age of 9–10 months." This appears contradictory, unless I'm missing something? JBritnell (talk) 11:09, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Other name

I'm not sure why other names are not used for certain articles but are for others. A common name for cat is 'kitty' or 'kitty-cat'. Should that not be mentioned in the lead as other common names? I also addressed this in the 'Dog' article, as 'Doggy' is a common name used to refer to a dog. It is included in dictionaries. I'd appreciate some opinions here, and if there is a consensus, I will add it. Thanks. Battykin (talk) 22:28, 16 June 2020 (UTC)