Talk:Colossal Cave Adventure

Video games

User:Masem reverted my change from "video game" to "computer game", saying that on WP, computer games and video games are the same thing.

Firstly, I would like a citation for that claim.

Secondly, note that in video games, it says: "Computer games are not all video games—for example text adventure games, chess, and so on do not depend upon a graphics display." So the WP article on video games implicitly notes that video games are computer games that require a graphics display. ADVENT does not.

ADVENT arrived at a time when there were essentially no video monitors. There were no PCs. Silicon Graphics, Jupiter, and Tektronix terminals hadn't been invented. I first played ADVENT on a machine with a 20x8-character gas-discharge display, and a console printer (Supervisory Printed Output, or 'SPO'). The game output went to the SPO. A completed game required several inches thickness of fanfold paper. You couldn't imagine playing on the display, which was really just for echoing input. So is the claim that printed output is 'video'?

You could certainly play on a glass teletype; but to refer to a glass teletype as a 'video' is stretching it.

So, User:Masem, would you please restore my edit? Thanks.

MrDemeanour (talk) 15:06, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Just because you may have played it on a teletype printer, doesn't mean it wasn't also playable on video screens. More importantly, you went through every use of "video game" and replaced that with "computer game" which broke several links and context ([1]). --Masem (t) 15:19, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Actually, it does mean that; there were no "video screens" when the game was made. Not even graphics terminals; there were text-mode terminals ("glass teletypes"), but most people didn't have them.

Furthermore, there is a direct contradiction between referring to ADVENT as a video game, and the clear statement in video games that text adventures are not video games. The right article to fix is this one, not that one.

If I screwed up some links, that's my bad; I should have delinkified them. Sorry.

MrDemeanour (talk) 15:51, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

You should't use WP as a reference for this stuff, but if you're still talking the statement over at video game, that statement related to text adventure games does not say they are not video games, but may be considered computer games since they can be played without a monitor. But they can still be video games. The problem that we have had in the past is that being too specific on the line between computer and video games led to edit wars over how to classify games, and project wise, we have taken the stance that all computer games belong in what people recognize as "video games" including games that lack a monitor. As PresN points out, we can be clear CCA was intended as a teletype game, but since has been ported to monitor-based systems. --Masem (t) 15:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Video screens absolutely existed at the time; even the PDP-1 that Crowther used for his maps could have had them. Spacewar! (1962) required the use of one, since it had real-time updating graphics. By 1971 there were 1000 computer installations with CRT monitors (though obviously of a different type), and by 1976 there would have been much, much more. Heck, Spasim (1974) was also a graphical computer game, since the PLATO system had thousands of monitors on its own. It's not that they didn't exist, it was that they were very expensive compared to teletypes to have every employee on the mainframe have their own, and there wasn't a business need since all the programs were text-based anyway. So, CCA was largely played over teletypes at the time. But: can you prive that no one played it on a monitor at the time? Can you prove that no one ever played the Woods version on a monitor between 1977 and 1995, when he stopped updating the Fortran code? Can you explain what exactly changed in the game when the same code was played on a monitor vs a teleprinter that made it into a "video game" instead of a "computer game", as if video games haven't played on computers of every type ever since their inception?

"Computer games" had a different lineage in the 1970s than "video games" did, which is why they used to be considered different things, but conceptually they are the same. If video game says otherwise, it is wrong- and it contradicts both early history of video games and history of video games to do so. --PresN 16:06, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, additionally while in prior decades there was a distinction made between "computer" games and "video" games, in modern parlance they're equivalent. The definition of "video game" to be a game that involves real-time updating graphics on a monitor isn't one that's really used any more, any more than the definitions that essentially limited it to arcade and console games. That said, CCA is obviously a text game and was designed and originally played on teletypes, and I wanted to make that clear; unfortunately so far I haven't found a good source that calls that out. For some 70s games sources make a point of it (e.g. The Oregon Trail (1971 video game), or Spacewar! specifically calling out that it couldn't be played on a teleprinter), but for many, and it seems this is one, sources just... assume that you know that. Still looking, though, because I think it's important to give context to modern readers what playing the game was actually like at the time and how that differs from loading up a modern port. --PresN 15:37, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Edit- and of course as soon as I type that and specifically go looking for "teleprinter" CCA instead of just CCA sources I find one. Give me a bit to integrate it. --PresN 15:40, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

I found a source too that I've put in as well. --Masem (t) 15:47, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

@Masem: Please provide a diff for the source you put in (at some unstated article or talk page or something). Also please provide an RfC that agrees with your position that a computer game is always a video game even if no video hardware is needed to play the game.

If you want to apply current language to old games, I could argue that any game that isn't played on an athletic field is a video game; Grand Theft Auto shouldn't be called a video game, it's just a game. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:05, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

The line between "video game" and "computer game" is extre.ely vague to the point that trying to explitly define it would be a problem...this is either because "video game" had broadly included nonvideo computer games, or where predominately in Europe "computer games" included video games. The terms are too diffuse with each other and hence we general call any such game a "video game", the more common term. See the nomiculture section in video game for sources.

but even with that, while CCA was originally developed as a teletype game, its legacy is know as a text based video game in broader terms. Hence the short description should reflect how it is readily known and not its original instance. --Masem (t) 14:27, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

And the diff alluded to above ends here [2] but you can see the source added a few more diffs back that day. --Masem (t) 14:39, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Colossal Cave Adventure/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: ProtoDrake (talk · contribs) 10:47, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I'll take this review on. If I don't get back with comments in a week, please ping. --ProtoDrake (talk) 10:47, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@PresN: I can't see anything major holding this back. Instant Pass. --ProtoDrake (talk) 21:04, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Bonus point = 351?

It's been decades since I last played ADVENT - certainly 20th century - and I only know this because I read the source, but the version I saw (still in FORTRAN) had a trick that gained you an extra point. It may have had something to do with going back to the bear. Can anyone confirm it was in their version, or was this something added to the branch that ended up on my desk? David Brooks (talk) 19:48, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

For the original Fortran, and in Knuth's CWEB version, the various treasure points, staying alive, reaching the end-game, exploring the cave thoroughly, etc. only came to 349 points. The special single bonus point was obtained by moving the magazine 'Spelunker Today' from the Anteroom to Witts End. You then had the additional problem of getting out of Witt's End without paying penalty points for advice! Murray Langton (talk) 21:46, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Another name for the Apple II?

I played it in maybe 1980, 1981, or 1979, on an Apple machine, possibly Apple II. But I didn't recall it being called "Microsoft" anything, but possibly with the word "Cave" in it; maybe with the word "Adventure" in it. I remember it beginning with something like "You are standing outside a cave." The article mentions only the MS version of it on the Apple. Could the one on the Apple have had another name, perhaps a name with the word "Cave" in it? Misty MH (talk) 07:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

help

could someone tell me where i can play this today? Allaoii ^talk 20:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

It's an option within the EMACS editor. Jc3s5h (talk) 20:35, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

EMACS editor? Allaoii ^talk 20:39, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

If you have a Linux system, it goes under the name 'adventure'. You might need to download it. Murray Langton (talk) 20:39, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

whats Linux? Allaoii ^talk 20:40, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Some clarification.

First, the game entitled 'adventure' on Emacs is not colossal cave adventure.

Second, there appears to be an internet version: https://grack.com/demos/adventure/

I haven't played that version out completely so I don't know how complete it is.

Third, Linux is an operating system and can be used as an almost free alternative to Microsoft Windows. In fact the Linux kernel underlies Android on mobile phones and also underlies Apple Mac software. Murray Langton (talk) 21:09, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Another internet version is at: https://rickadams.org/adventure/advent/ Murray Langton (talk) 21:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

never mind i installed the app Allaoii ^talk 16:39, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Plugh

I distinctly remember entering “plugh” and “xyzzy”. What did “plugh” do, and why is it not mentioned?

I played it on a Data General MV8000 around 1980. 2601:647:8100:30BB:1965:93E:CBE5:9231 (talk) 21:47, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

"plugh" teleports you between the Y2 room and the cabin (both ways), like "xyzzy" does with 2 other locations; it's not mentioned because sources don't really talk about it, it's kind of a minor detail that's less remembered than xyzzy. --PresN 22:02, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

In the 360 point version, whenever you visit the location "Y2" there is a 25% chance that you will receive the message: "A hollow voice says 'plugh'". Using this magic word allows you to get well into the cave. Murray Langton (talk) 06:36, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

The 1987 PDP-11 Windows port link needs clarification

The link says "1987 Windows port of the PDP-11 version of Colossal Cave Adventure for DOSBox". Many people will assume that this means DOSBox will need to be installed before the game itself is installed. Actually this .exe installs and sets up DOSBox and the game automatically (similar to a Good Old Games game setup file). This means the user won't need anything and the game will be running in seconds. Maybe someone can figure a way to mention this without a bunch of words? Thanks! 97.113.157.8 (talk) 06:02, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

TNIX version

I worked in the Microprocessor Development Products division at Tektronix in the early 1980s and we played this game on our TNIX-based systems. (TNIX was Tektronix' proprietary version of UNIX.) It was called "dungeo" on our systems, but was clearly either the exact same game or an embellished version. I actually found this Wikipedia page while searching for "a maze of twisty passages, all alike", which does tend to stick in ones memory. (I don't remember the word "little" in that phrase.) I suspect that the file was just renamed or something. The interaction on the screen in the photo in this article looks exactly like what I remember. Anyway, "RUN DUNGEO" often started an enjoyable lunch break. FatBear1 (talk) 17:00, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

User:PresN It is a fair point you made about the eponymous nature of the game being mentioned in the last sentence of the lead. I somehow failed to notice that. Go me. I am not however aware of any reason I cannot use the source to which you objected. It is a published, peer reviewed academic source which contains information about the subject of the article. If I am for some reason in error I would be most obliged if you could direct me to some documentation as to why. Can you please explain why you also removed another citation for this same point? Morgan Leigh | Talk 03:20, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:SCHOLARSHIP we typically do not use thesis for sourcing until there's a really good reason too. Masem (t) 03:55, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

The good reason is that there are a dearth of sources for this material. This is a good source of the information. To address the points raised in WP:SCHOLARSHIP; it is publicly available, peer reviewed, and a secondary source on the material. Morgan Leigh | Talk 06:40, 2 October 2023 (UTC)