Talk:Killing of Mustafa Tamimi: Difference between revisions

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*'''Oppose''', but only because it should be [[Killing of Mustafa Tamimi]] per [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths)]]. We have an established naming convention for these types of articles, and Mustafa Tamimi was killed by Israeli forces shooting a tear gas canister. Our naming conventions on this is clear, and "Death of" is not a suitable title, despite the bald assertions above. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17">nableezy</span>]]''' - 18:13, 20 September 2021 (UTC)</small>
*'''Oppose''', but only because it should be [[Killing of Mustafa Tamimi]] per [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths)]]. We have an established naming convention for these types of articles, and Mustafa Tamimi was killed by Israeli forces shooting a tear gas canister. Our naming conventions on this is clear, and "Death of" is not a suitable title, despite the bald assertions above. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17">nableezy</span>]]''' - 18:13, 20 September 2021 (UTC)</small>
:::[[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths)]]: "This page is not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community." [[User:Inf-in MD|Inf-in MD]] ([[User talk:Inf-in MD|talk]]) 18:48, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
:::[[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths)]]: "This page is not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community." [[User:Inf-in MD|Inf-in MD]] ([[User talk:Inf-in MD|talk]]) 18:48, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
::::Very familiar tactic in quoting just one part of a page from past NoCal100 socks. But what the sentence prior to that says is ''This is an explanatory supplement to the Wikipedia:Article titles policy and the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (events) guideline.'' An explanatory supplement to a guideline. And it reflects the common practice across a huge range of articles. Try harder. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17">nableezy</span>]]''' - 19:00, 20 September 2021 (UTC)</small>

Revision as of 19:00, 20 September 2021

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WikiProject iconThis article was copy edited by Twofingered Typist, a member of the Guild of Copy Editors, on 14 June 2018.

Notability

Non-notable individual who died, apparently as a result of tear gas or a tear gas canister fired to quell a violent demonstration in which he was participating. Brief news-cycle thing, no demonstration of IMPACT or ONGOING coverage.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:29, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The individual may be non-notable (the article does not make such a claim), but his death meets WP:NEVENT, per sources already in the article. I suggest the tag be removed. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:33, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I was not clear. The individual was non-notable before his death. The death itself occurred as the individual took place in a violent, but not notable political protest. The incident appears to non-notable because coverage was limited to a brief flurry of coverage, and a follow-up article relating that the soldier who fired the tear gas canister was not criminally liable. No coverage showing IMPACT or ONGOING coverage. This looks like a WP:POVFORK of Nabi Salih#Weekly protests, where this death is appropriately covered.E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
According to what criterion the template was removed per WP:WTRMT?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Shrike (talkcontribs)
I disagree. This death passes NEVENT / GNG - mainly to the coverage of much more prominent family members that bring Mustafa up as a martyred relative - however this has generated LASTing and rather wide coverage. The more relevant question is one of a merge if there is a suitable target.I don't see how this won't survive an AfD (though merge might be a possible outcome there - redirect or delete are off the table) - the appropriate discussion type would be a merge proposal if this is a suitable target.Icewhiz (talk) 10:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I tagged the page for notability because sources seem inadequate. Revisiting after the tag was removed, I could see that it is a WP:CONTENTFORK of Nabi Salih#Weekly protests, where it should be merged.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:32, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
E.M.Gregory: How about Killing of Esther Ohana? --Mhhossein talk 14:09, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Merger attempt is really questionable to me given the similar article created by EMG himself. Apparently, there's a misunderstanding regarding WP:CONTENTFORK: "A content fork is the creation of multiple separate articles (or passages within articles) all treating the same subject." Are we really talking about the same subject? --Mhhossein talk 14:09, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Non-violent demonstration

Icewhiz: This source says that he was killed in a non-violent demonstration. I have no idea why you removed the sourced content based on your own interpretation? --Mhhossein talk 14:15, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's a PRIMARY report - and may perhaps be seen as the political position of the UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office, but nothing else. There are other positions - e.g. [1] - Testifying before military police investigators, the soldier who fired the grenade said he did not see Tamimi when he pulled the trigger. He stated that he fired in response to a massive barrage of rocks being thrown at the vehicle he was in, and that he did not see anybody in his line of fire. This account was adopted by others in the IDF Central Command, and was backed up by Military Advocate for Operational Matters Lt. Col. Ronen Hirsch's Thursday announcement.. According to B'Tselem (you can see a video of photographs here, including of him) - he was shot "as he threw stones at a military jeep". Per the Independent (an actual RS) - Clashes at Palestinian protester's funeral‎ - "Mustafa Tamimi was shot in the head on Friday as he threw stones at an armoured jeep during a regular weekly protest by residents of the West Bank village of Nabi Saleh". So - non-violent is not quite borne out by actual sources here.Icewhiz (talk) 14:32, 22 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ahed Tamimi in See also

Mustafa is Ahed Tamimi's cousin and both are/were activists, hence they're relevant to each other, the requirement mentioned in MOS:SEEALSO. --Mhhossein talk 12:46, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ahlam Tamimi is also a cousin, and was also active in Palestinian activities against Israel, if we mention Ahed then we should mention Ahlam as well.Icewhiz (talk) 15:20, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree Ahlam Tamimi is known activist for Palestinian cause and should be included too.--Shrike (talk) 19:54, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
no....Ahlam Tamimi didn't even live in the village. There is nothing which link her to Mustafa Tamimi: this is just a new low smear tactic, towards a dead man, Huldra (talk) 20:39, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Umm no. Per the NYT Ahlam is from Nabi Saleh and is much loved there, despite jer conviction and subsequent exile in Jordan.[2]Icewhiz (talk) 20:48, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Her family comes from there...she doesnt live there (and there is no info that she ever did), And NYT is about as reliable on Nabi Saleh affairs as Aruz Sheva (Btw, who said they loved her? Mustafa?) Huldra (talk) 20:55, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The NYT piece I cited above says she's from there.[3] She was involving in the bombing while she was a student in nearby Birzeit - following which she spent time in an Israeli jail and then (following a prisoner exchange deal) in exile in Jordan. However, the NYT piece makes abundantly clear that she's from the village and mentions both Mustafa and Ahlam - clearly showing they are discussed as a set.Icewhiz (talk) 06:42, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

RFC See also

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Neither Several editors voted both or neither - I count 4 votes either solely for neither or expressing a preference for neither as a first choice, 2 for both, and one editor who did not express a preference between both or neither. One of the editors who voted both also stated he would accept neither as a second choice. Two editors votes to include only Ahed Tamimi Neither would resolve editors stated concerns about NPOV and has the most support at this time and several editors made particularly strong arguments that this content was not appropriate/detrimental for the See Also section. Seraphim System (talk) 23:44, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What should appear in See Also section

--Shrike (talk) 08:56, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Both or Neither Neither(First choice) or Both(Second Choice) the WP:RS discuss them together for example [4],[5] so mention only one is clear POV violation.--Shrike (talk) 08:56, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Shrike: You'd better strike your older comment when you change it into a new one. --Mhhossein talk 18:11, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Both + add Bassem Tamimi (or as a 2nd option - Neither). All three are cousins, both are mentioned in conjunction to Mustafa in RSes - what good for the goose is good for the gander. I support both over neither, as this individual is not notable and the incident itself (a stone thrower getting hit by a gas canister) would've been in all likelihood non-notable. Most of the coverage of this cases stems from on-going coverage of Nabi Saleh and the notable Tamimis - hence, the notable members of the Tamimi clan are quite relevant here, and they definitely include all three (Ahed, Ahlam, and Bassem) - who are often mentioned alongside Mustafa's death.Icewhiz (talk) 09:04, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Both or Neither They come from the same town and from the same family. Showing only one of them is clear cherry-picking and POV.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 17:21, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only Ahed Tamimi, who is a cousin, or none. Though Ahlam Tamimis familily came from her, she doesnt live here. Lets say it as it is: you only want Ahlam Tamimi name here to tarnish the name of Mustafa Tamimi....Huldra (talk) 21:28, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only Ahed Tamimi, who the source says is a cousin of Mustafa and lives in Nabi Saleh, where Mustafa lived and died. --Mhhossein talk 04:59, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Both or neither symmetrical treatment for things that would be favored by different POVs is how you observe NPOV. Tragic that we have to have an RfC for a See also section. Preference for neither and having no See Also section at all -- it was detracting, not adding, to our encyclopedia. ---- Calthinus (talk) 14:06, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Both Ahed Tamimi and Ahlam Tamimi are verified family members of Mustafa. People may also mix them up, so having those links helps clarify that. In general, a section addressing 'Notable family members' would be useful.Shushugah (talk) 15:24, 1 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neither If these people are related (either by blood or connection), then text is the proper way to make that connection, and 'cousin' has a much looser definition in some societies than in the West - is that the case here? Without such textual exposition, the connection seems wholly spurious and borderline WP:OR, three notable Palestinians with the same surname? So what? Pincrete (talk) 23:16, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    They all hail from the same small 600 person village - it is not just a random common surname. Media commonly reports they are cousins.Icewhiz (talk) 02:48, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neither: if these family members are relevant to the subject's life, then they should appear in the text of the article. Semi-random names in "See also" are not helpful to the readers. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:36, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tamimi family seems like the obvious choice, an article for which ample sourcing exists: the clan is often discussed as a unit, both by supporters and detractors, and a Knesset subcommittee once held an investigation into whether they were a real family. It would best serve our readers to provide as much reliable information as possible, conveniently organized, on the family to which Mustafa belonged and its political activities.
If reliable sources provide particular reasons to connect any two members of the family, these should of course be explained in the text of the relevant articles. FourViolas (talk) 21:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Needs to be reviewed

@Pincrete, Huldra, and Zero0000: Can anyone review these edits please [6], [7] and [8]? --Mhhossein talk 18:49, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Your canvassing of involved editors sharing your POV is not acceptable.Shrike (talk) 18:55, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I only came for the RfC and don't know why I'm deemed qualified to review these edits - if you can't get agreement here, raise an RfC or some sort of dispute procedure. With my limited knowledge of the topic, some of these edits seem good, some less so, but as I said I only came for the RfC so it wasn't appropriate to ping me. Pincrete (talk) 19:04, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Shot or struck?

Sources such as The Guardian, BBC, Aljazeera, Washington Post are using "Shot", so I'm reverting the unnecessary changes done recently. --Mhhossein talk 14:53, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Washington post and BBC and reuters[9] use struck also.There is some sources that use hit[10],[11].I propose to change it to hit as compromise--Shrike (talk) 15:01, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Washington post uses "shot" in the title, as I told you. I would remove the Israeli sources from the list. --Mhhossein talk 15:07, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Many sources are using struck or hit as in English, and particularly American English, shot implies gun shot - which is not the case here. The gas canister is a fairly low speed projecticle. I Support either struck or hit.Icewhiz (talk) 15:09, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And it use struck also.Why we should remove Israeli independent sources and leave Qatari state media? Shrike (talk) 15:11, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not surprised by your edit warring. You should provide sources for your claim, as I already did. That "the gas canister is a fairly low speed projecticle" has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion since we don't act based on your original research, rather we should note what the sources say. Your edit summary, "He was not shot with a bullet, he was struck by a gas canister," likewise shows you are acting based on your own original research. --Mhhossein talk 15:16, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
NPA please. You had editors cinfused by this at the dyk as well. NYT does not use shot,[12] and plenty of other sources avoid this as well.Icewhiz (talk) 15:24, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There isnt a personal attack anywhere in that. Criticizing your edits is not a "personal attack". nableezy - 15:40, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Don't get offended, that was a real edit warring! I suggest you show us those "plenty of other sources". --Mhhossein talk 05:28, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted once, as did you.Icewhiz (talk) 05:34, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, you reverted without having actively participated in the discussion. Also, you based your revert on your own Original Researches and refused to show sources supporting struck. --Mhhossein talk 05:37, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I posted in this discussion prior to reverting the edit with somewhat unclear edit summary of "unnecessary changes was reverted, See the talk page for the reasoning behind it". I also provided a spurce - NYT. I suggest you strike your assertions above.Icewhiz (talk) 05:43, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That's what the edit summary box is meant for. I had commented on the talk page so "See the talk page for the reasoning behind it" is crystal clear. I came up with four reliable sources, what you fail to do. --Mhhossein talk 06:08, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Statistics

I checked the sources and made the following table:

Source Shot Hit Struck
The Guardian Y Y N
Al-Jazeera Y Y N
BBC Y Y Y
Washington Post Y (used in title) Y Y
Pri N Y N
Haaretz Y Y N
Ny Times N N Y
CNN N Y (used in title) N
Telegraph N Y N
Times of Israel Y Y N
The Jeursalem Post Y (used in title) N N
Ynetnews N Y N

While "hit" seems a good candidate, "shot" is used in the title by 2 sources. I don't think "struck" can stay. --Mhhossein talk 18:20, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

according to "pro-Palestinian activists" or "witnesses"

I really dont see why that is needed at all. You can watch it frame by frame. He was clearly running after the vehicle throwing stones. Why is this an issue? nableezy - 21:25, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Page title

@Nableezy: Do you think we can move the page to something like 'Shooting of Mustafa Tamimi'? --Mhhossein talk 12:33, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You may see this page. --Mhhossein talk 12:37, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Please start move discussion if you want any change Shrike (talk) 13:47, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, but I was merely seeking their opinion before anything else. --Mhhossein talk 12:37, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 20 September 2021

Death of Mustafa TamimiShooting of Mustafa Tamimi – According to the sources provided back in 2018, he was described as shot in face. The current title does not imply he was killed by shooting. Mhhossein talk 12:03, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose This WP:NPOV title as shooting is not explain the whole incident. Most of the sources also say that he threw stones toward the vehicle.So it was not merely shooting. --Shrike (talk) 12:09, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there is guideline saying the title should describe the details. What gives notability to all these events is that Mustafa Tamimi was killed by shooting. We are not here because of the stone throwing. --Mhhossein talk 12:14, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment After examining the sources in the table it seems most of them use "death" or "dies" in their title so should we --Shrike (talk) 12:12, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - compare with Death of Muammar Gaddafi or Death of JonBenét Ramsey. Inf-in MD (talk) 13:44, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths): "This page is not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community." Inf-in MD (talk) 18:48, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Very familiar tactic in quoting just one part of a page from past NoCal100 socks. But what the sentence prior to that says is This is an explanatory supplement to the Wikipedia:Article titles policy and the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (events) guideline. An explanatory supplement to a guideline. And it reflects the common practice across a huge range of articles. Try harder. nableezy - 19:00, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]