Talk:Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster

Change article title?

I understand the WP convention that space mission pages are named for the payload, and the point that the roadster is, in Elon's own words, "the silliest thing we can imagine" as payload. Nevertheless, this article title makes the whole mission sound far more frivolous than it actually is. I'd suggest renaming the article "Falcon Heavy demo mission dummy payload" or similar. Any other suggestions/comments? Rosbif73 (talk) 07:59, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Rosbif73, WP:COMMONNAME? —Sladen (talk) 08:56, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Sladen, could you clarify what aspect of that policy you think applies here? Are you suggesting that the existing title is the most common way that relevant sources refer to this payload? Rosbif73 (talk) 10:51, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Rosbif73, although not the ultimate answer, WP:GTEST / WP:GHITS may be a good sanity check for whether a proposed name change is likely to be more beneficial or accessible for readers:

• "elon musk's tesla roadster" -wikipedia: 81,500 hits
• "falcon heavy demo mission dummy payload": 1 hit (this talk page)
• "falcon heavy demo mission dummy payload" -wikipedia: 0 hits

Are there any other names that we could also test for consideration? —Sladen (talk) 11:44, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

The Falcon Heavy has enough spinoff articles to add another one such as 'Falcon Heavy dummy payload' because it is so frivolous to the launch system and its development. If it was an actual boilerplate we would not be talking about it. I'm not convinced it needs a name change. BatteryIncluded (talk) 14:44, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

• "falcon heavy dummy payload" -wikipedia: 1 hit (Reddit speculation)

—Sladen (talk) 23:28, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

You need to eliminate non-space-related hits from the counts:

• "elon musk's tesla roadster" "falcon heavy" -wikipedia gives 20800 hits
• "tesla roadster" "falcon heavy" -wikipedia gives 275000 hits, so clearly there are lots of other variant expressions used to describe this vehicle. I'm not convinced that the current title is the most common. However, it doesn't seem that there's any real consensus for a change of name at this time. With a bit of luck, SpaceX will give the payload a proper name of some sort once it's been launched, rendering this discussion moot. Rosbif73 (talk) 16:03, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

See how the Government calls it. So would Modified Tesla Roadster (mass simulator) be a suitable title ? Hektor (talk) 07:45, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

"Tesla Roadster" alone is not a description of this single car. It has more Google hits but it is not a suitable name here, for the same reason we don't move Space Shuttle Columbia (unique object) to Space Shuttle orbiter (type).

"Modified Tesla Roadster" is too general, and I don't think anyone would search for this term. The brackets wouldn't help either.

I think the current title is fine, unless SpaceX gives the object a unique name in the future. --mfb (talk) 08:03, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

"tesla roadster mass simulator" has a non-zero number of hits (200), so is a possibility (but less well-known than the present name). —Sladen (talk) 09:50, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Special:Permanentlink/824108476 included the "modified Tesla Roadster (mass simulator)" wording from the licence in MOS:BOLD form. This was removed in Special:Diff/824134305 (by BatteryIncluded). —Sladen (talk) 19:16, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

The title is flippant and misleading. It's misleading because one would expect an article with this name to be about a car in the normal sense of a car -- as in it's life as a thing you drive around. Every other article titled similarly is about a car in the thing-you-drive-around sense. The title should be more evident as to what the article is actually about.
It's flippant because it seems (to me at least) to be trying to be cute with an in-joke. That is, that a reader needs inside knowledge to know what the article is really about and that the title is "coded". That's not cute. It's flippant and unencyclopedic. 98.216.245.29 (talk) 09:39, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

98.216.245.29, what name(s) would be better? —Sladen (talk) 09:45, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

I just wanted to add some weight to the "it's a good idea to improve the title" camp. Anything more accurate would probably reduce the flippancy factor at the same time. If the title suggests it's about a spacecraft and not a car, then a little bit of digression educating about orbits could be a little more justifiable. A number of names have been suggested already. The first alternate suggested "Falcon Heavy demo mission dummy payload" seemed pretty good, but whatever, as long as it's described as a spacecraft vs. as a car. 98.216.245.29 (talk) 22:33, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

"Tesla Roadster Spacecraft"? 98.216.245.29 (talk) 22:36, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

In case you have not read above, the Tesla car is a car, and will remain a car whether you put it in the ocean, on a road, or in orbit. A camera or two won't make it a spacecraft, nor a dummy driver. Nor a guide to the galaxy in the glove compartment. Call this article whatever, but I will confront any name implying it is a spacecraft. BatteryIncluded (talk) 23:18, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Okay, "Tesla Roadster Space Payload" then. Whatever. But, "Mr. Wonderful's Wonderful Car" is misleading and unencyclopedically enamorous of our Mr. Wonderful. It's not what the article's about. The article is about a car being used as a space payload, which is notable. It's not about a car as itself doing ordinary (or even special) car-like things, as is too-easily inferred by the current title. 98.216.245.29 (talk) 00:00, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

After launch: Tesla car in orbit. Or something like that. BatteryIncluded (talk) 00:05, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

• "tesla roadster spacecraft" -wikipedia (1 hit)
• "tesla roadster space payload" -wikipedia (0 hits)
• "mr. wonderful's wonderful car" -wikipedia (0 hits)
• "tesla car in orbit" -wikipedia (1,200 hits)

98.216.245.29, are there any other plausible suggestions? —Sladen (talk) 00:10, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Google "hits" are completely immaterial to deciding how to name an article. That's mind-bogglingly unencyclopedic. Let's not waste space here with any more of that. Please.  :-) 98.216.245.29 (talk) 01:09, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

The Roadster is only half of it—we're completely forgetting about Starman in the title, which is what people remember and think about. It isn't even Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster anymore, but it is Starman's. I would suggest something like "Starman's Tesla Roadster" or "Starman and his Tesla Roadster" because those titles adequately describe the entity that is the work of art now floating through space. Keavon (talk) 12:55, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Arc 5D disk info

Mentioned as part of load, but not much on it I could find. Found this: https://www.theverge.com/2016/2/16/11018018/5d-data-storage-glass Flightsoffancy (talk) 00:15, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

There are some links there that can be followed which give more info. Currently the wikilink for Arc 5D disk redirects to an article on 3D disks which I believe in inaccurate as the 5D disk has additional properties. But we don't have an article on 5D technology or the Arch Foundation. -- GreenC 23:56, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

I found this article: https://medium.com/arch-mission-foundation/arch-mission-foundation-announces-our-payload-on-spacex-falcon-heavy-c4c9908d5dd1 Erick Soares3 (talk) 14:53, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Lead

I don't see why we need to include "Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster is a first generation Tesla Roadster owned by entrepreneur Elon Musk". It's not like the title of the article is ambiguous and this is called "Steven Spielberg's Tesla Model S". We just need to say that Elon Musk owned this Tesla Roadster. epicgenius (talk) 15:24, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Also, per MOS:BOLDTITLE, we shouldn't bold "Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster" if this isn't the natural title. As it is, we already need to explain who Elon Musk is, and clarify that this is a first generation Roadster (because the link isn't obvious). epicgenius (talk) 21:00, 8 February 2018 (UTC)​

Flyby or not flyby

The text says the roadster will not fly by Mars while the image indicates a flyby in 2020...Hektor (talk) 19:23, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

The Roadster will fly close to Mar's orbit soon, but Mars will be far away at that time. Due to the wear and tear the car will suffer (this could alter its orbit), it is hard to predict what will happen in the future. Maybe in 300 years it will have a flyby but within our lifetime it will not get close to Mars. --Frmorrison (talk) 21:12, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

No flyby. (And still not a "spacecraft in a mission to Mars".) The space junk will fly as far as Mars' orbital path. But Mars could be in the opposite side of the Sun at each pass. BatteryIncluded (talk) 22:14, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree, though, that it's misleading that image says "flyby". It should say "close encounter" or equivalent (assuming that's the case, instead of just a Mars orbit crossing). Meithan (talk) 01:33, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I've removed the graphic of the orbit from the article for now; it's an objectively misleading image that has false information on it. I'm working on creating a better graphic. I'm basing it on this image provided by Elon Musk himself on Twitter. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · contribs · count) 05:38, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Be aware that the image tweeted by Musk incorrect, it has the wrong aphelion. And I'm also working on an orbit diagram, similar to this video[1] (but using updated orbital elements). Should we both prepare an image and have others vote? Meithan (talk) 06:14, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Concerning the possible close encounter in 2020, I extracted orbital positions of the Earth, Mars and the Roadster for the next 2 years from JPL Horizons, yielding this. The 2020 encounter is pretty close: 7.5 million km. Does this qualify as a close encounter? I would definitely not call it a flyby though. Meithan (talk) 07:31, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

That is an interesting bit of info. I want to include it but we need to cite a source with easier access than Horizon's Database. Any suggestions? BatteryIncluded (talk) 15:55, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

@Meithan: From what I understand "flyby" is simply another word for "encounter" in the context of space exploration. Even then, a distance of 7.5 million kilometres can't really be considered any type of encounter. There's been quite the debate over the years over whether or not Cassini's observation of 2685 Masursky is considered a "flyby". NASA has never publicly called the event an "encounter", and it made a closest approach of 1.2 million kilometres, much closer than the Roadster will come to Mars. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · contribs · count) 07:44, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

According to the JPL Horizons Ephemeris, the Roadster will pass about 20 lunar distances (<8Mkm) from Mars on October 6, 2020, flying over the north pole of Mars, close enough to change the orbital parameters of the "spacecraft". Tom Ruen (talk) 10:16, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

If you'd like me to remove the word "flyby" to File:Falcon Heavy Demonstration Mission orbit Feb 6 2018.png, that's easy enough... I replaced it with "closest approach < 8 million km". Tom Ruen (talk) 10:16, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

p.s. Definintion: fly·by: a flight past a point, especially the close approach of a spacecraft to a planet or moon for observation.

Tom Ruen: I don't think 8 million km is "close enough to change the orbital parameters of the "spacecraft"" appreciably. The radius of Mars's sphere of influence is 0.58 million km, so I'd say that the influence on the Roadster's trajectory is really tiny. Formally, being outside the sphere of influence means that the Sun is still the dominant force, I'd say by far at this distance.

Frankly, I'd say it'd be best if we avoid the word flyby, as people might imagine things like photos of Mars. "Close encounter" seems more neutral and less attention-drawing for the general public. Meithan (talk) 14:19, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

For something like 8 million kilometers, I'd be tempted to use the term "distant encounter." That is something the Cassini project used internally for close enough to mention but not to make a big deal about. I'm not sure how commonly that phrase is. By the way, this is close enough to change the Tesla's orbit, but not by much. Fcrary (talk) 20:29, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I like "distant encounter". It seems asteroids passing by the Earth are worth a mention in the media when they pass closer than ~20 lunar distances. However, [List of asteroid close approaches to Earth] considers an approach "close" when the asteroid passes within 1 lunar distance. So I'd say "distant" is appropriate. But perhaps we should wait until a knowledgeable source qualifies the 2020 encounter. Jonathan McDowell tweeted that the encounter is "well outside Mars' gravitational sphere of influence".

About the encounter altering the trajectory, I still think it's too far to make an important effect (I mean, every body in the solar system perturbs the Roadster's orbit; it's a question of quantifying how big the effect it is). One can do a quick napkin calculation to estimate the size of the perturbation Mars represents compared to the pull of the Sun. Since the Roadster will be about 1.67 AU from the Sun at Mars encounter, the ratio of distances to Mars and to the Sun is on the order of 1.67 AU / 8 million km ~ 31, while the Sun-Mars mass ratio is 2e30 kg / 6.4e23 kg ~ 3e6 ... Since perturbations scale as ~M/r^3, the distance effect is on the order of 31^3 ~ 3e4, which is 100 times smaller than the mass effect. In other words, the perturbation of Mars at closest encounter represents a "1% effect" on the Roadster's trajectory. Big enough to be of note? Meithan (talk) 01:23, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

I found one source that talks about the Mars "flyby", of course using the same JPL data as me! Nothing else is close at all. Roadster will make its closest approach to Mars in October of 2020, coming within 4.3 million miles, according to Jonathan McDowell, an astrophysicist at Harvard and spaceflight expert. The trajectory shows it goes over the north pole of Mars AND happens to be close to a Earth-Mars opposition as well! Tom Ruen (talk)

Yeah, I saw McDowell's tweet. He's also sourcing the ~7 million km figure from the JPL ephemeris. And he says "well outside Mars' gravitational sphere of influence", which I understand to mean it's definitely not a flyby, and that it's probably not even a "close encounter", as asteroids in "close encounters" with the Earth typically pass well within Earth's sphere of influence. I like Fcrary's suggestion of calling it a "distant encounter" at best. We could mention that it's the closest encounter until 2030, but still a distant one. Meithan (talk)

Distant encounter is fair description to me. If the inclination was closer to Mars it would be a lot closer. I made a chart of the conjunction as seen from earth, showing it is as far above the ecliptic as Mars is below. And JPL shows its peak magnitude is also there, around 25, possible to see! [2] Tom Ruen (talk) 22:03, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

POV forking reactions into media section

See WP:CSECTION.

It's clear from Musk's words and actions with both the car and the wheel of cheese that he is giving careful consideration to how all of this plays in the media, and he is adjusting the timing and tone of every part to manage the PR. He consciously managed the content of the headlines about the SpaceX COTS Demo Flight 1, because he wanted them to be about the launch. As soon as that news cycle was complete and the desired headlines appeared, then he revealed the wheel of cheese payload and the Monty Python jokes and such, and kicked off another cycle of positive news coverage. Masterful. Props to Musk.

The thing to realize is that the car and the cheese are media. The car is a press release. The cheese is a press release. The ballast could have been anything but by making it these specific objects, they are being put to double use as a "means of mass communication", which is the definition of "media". So when we put Media off at the bottom of the article, and only include non-SpaceX, non-Musk media, we have a WP:POVFORK. If your POV is from the company, your opinions go up here prominently, while everyone representing any other point of view goes down in this ghetto at the bottom of an article.

In articles about books and movies, the convention is to describe the characters and plot at the top, and at the bottom describe the critics reviews and box office numbers. That's fine; it would be confusing to interject commentary within the plot summary. But for any other kind of article, it's almost always best to stick to both/all points of view for each topic. So if you're going to report what Musk says the objective is, you immediately follow that with what others say it is. If you are going to say what SpaceX thinks the launch represents, then immediately follow that with what others think it represents. A says foo, B says bar.

I should add that this also makes articles much easier to write: every topic falls right into place without having to hunt for a section it belongs in. See also Wikipedia:Describing points of view. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:45, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Dennis Bratland, well kudos to Musk. Do we have a reliable cite saying this, so that the meta-meta aspect can be covered? —Sladen (talk) 18:04, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

We have already cited multiple sources saying it's a publicity stunt, its goal was to generate pictures for the press, it is a "message", it is meant to "show off something", all of which is "As with so much Musk does".[3][4] A "message" or a "publicity stunt" or a "show" is a medium. What else do you want citations for? What else is there to add?

My point is mainly about where the content goes. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:21, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I like the cut of your jib, Dennis, and I applaud your post. It's unlikely that the majority of editors will pay it any heed though, so I urge you to make perioic edits to the article to bring it into line. Lord knows we could do with more clear-headed editors like you on board. nagualdesign 18:50, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I think there is some confusion here between "criticism" (ie. negative or critical opinion) and "reactions" which can be positive or negative. It would be POV if negative opinions are shunted together, but that is not what is going on here rather is simple organization of content. We usually have separate sections for "reactions" to events. If the current reactions section is only negative/critical then it needs to be balanced with more positive additions per WEIGHT. The "Objective" section (ie. SpaceX's plans made before the launch) is not the right place for material post-launch, articles are typically organized chronologically when possible: Pre-launch objectives, Payload, Launch, Future and Reactions. -- GreenC 05:23, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

You're segregating the opinions on the criterion of SpaceX vs everyone else. The objective section is SpaceX's soapbox, where Musk and his employees can describe their company in whatever glowing terms they choose. Nobody is allowed to respond in this section. Anybody who has anything else to say about it, good or bad or just re-framing the issue, is pushed down to the bottom of the article.

As far as positive reactions, nobody can find any. We had some lovely quotes about the greatness of this achievement, but they were referring to the Falcon Heavy rocket, not the use of a Roadster as a boilerplate mass simulator. If you can find anybody to cite who is positive about that, please add that. The nicest thing anyone has said is that it's not totally pointless and stupid. Either way, point and counter point belong together, not forked apart. As I said, see WP:CSECTION. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 06:40, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Aside from the Guardian article I've found most negative reactions stem from industry professionals whom are highly conservative. This is more a reflection of the industry, and not reflective of the general public. Hence this section is skewed to the negative and does not consider a far more positive public response. For that I suggest reporting on the number of views on the SpaceX livestream (13M views in 3-days) or articles with a more populist bent (one example, https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5540042/elon-musk-tesla-roadster-mars-car-falcon-heavy-starman-spacex-launch-dont-panic-sticker/ or http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5356825/Video-reveals-Elon-Musks-car-fired-MARS.html or http://www.techradar.com/how-to/spacex-falcon-heavy-launch-elon-musk-tesla-roadster).Jheld6557(Jheld6557) 20:48, 10 February 2018 (AEST)

Pageviews and British tabloids? You have to admit that if you have to resort to this as sources, you’re scraping the bottom of the barrel. Musk worship at Wikipedia has become a plague. The thing to realize is that the more an article fawns over the subject, the more suspicious readers are. The cynicism inspired by propaganda actually makes them like the subject less. Not counting Daily Mail readers, obviously. Write about this dispassionately and readers will trust you. —Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:56, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

You're only interested in adding negative commentary, and you insist on it being "up top". If you were genuine in trying to improve the article fairly, you would include a balanced mix of positive and negative opinion per WEIGHT and you would follow standard procedure placing it in a separate reception section, based on a chronological layout in the rest of the article, instead of trying to misplace it in the Objective section for no other reason then to get it towards to the top of the article space. -- GreenC 20:31, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

I complement Musk on being a brilliant showman, a skilled manipulator of the news cycle, and an effective strategist in achieving his company's goals. This is very consistent with the commentary made by most respectable media. I'm the one who added the (reputable) Scientific American's complement that "Thematically, it was a perfect fit". What else would you like to add? I think you need to do a careful reading of the coverage of this. The tabloid Daily Mail article gushes about the Falcon Heavy Demonstration Mission, which is fine, but that belongs over in that article. What does it actually say about the bit about using a car as ballast? The article simply quotes Musk and copies SpaceX's graphics and videos. You can't even quote the daily Mail saying anything like "it was a good idea to launch a car into space". They don't say that. They merely quote Musk, which brings us back to the issue: instead of independent thought, this article is a platform for copy-pasting what SpaceX says about itself. The Star reports this: "Musk made a pop culture reference!!!!" That's it. That's what the Star said. What content do you want to add to the article with this Star citation?

You keep complaining that you don't like what is being said, but what would you like? You want to report the number of page views and try to spin that as meaning public approval? Grotesque and horrible things get a lot of page views too. The raw number of 13 million views is rather ambiguous, without interpretation from a reputable source, like say Scientific American or Advertising Age.

I'm not standing in your way if you want to add positive reactions to using a car as a mass simulator. Please go ahead. All I'm saying is, your sources aren't giving you much. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:22, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

RfC on reception section vs integrated layout

Should statements, press releases, tweets, self-published video, etc, from SpaceX and Musk be given prominent placement in the article lead, and in the first article section (Objectives), excluding any non-SpaceX responses from that section, and keeping all commentary in the Reactions or Media section at the bottom of the article? These layout approaches are usually referred to as reception section vs integrated. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:44, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Survey

• Comment This "RFC" is awful. It's unsigned (who made it?), and the wording is entirely non-neutral meant to influence the voter in a desired direction. It goes against WP:RFC directions which says "Statement should be neutral". I hope the anonymous nominator will reconsider by making a new rationale and signing it. -- GreenC 20:22, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

• OK, how would you phrase it then? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:39, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

It's non-neutral because the phrasing implies the information from SpaceX, in the lead and first section is pro-SpaceX opinion. I.e. on par with the non-SpaceX opinions in the reactions section. Anything from SpaceX saying the whole business is a great thing doesn't belong in the lead, and should go with all the other opinions in the reactions section. But if they are simply the source for the facts, the RFC shouldn't imply otherwise.Fcrary (talk) 22:30, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

• how would you phrase it - depends what action you're trying to accomplish but just: "Should the reaction section be merged into the Objective section?" That's it. Very simple to understand and to !vote on - black and white. Then, in the survey section make a !vote "Support" with a rationale that includes what you wrote above. -- GreenC 03:29, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

• Integrated The subject is hard to nail down. Is it about a car? A spacecraft? A technological advance? The specific choice to use a Tesla car rather than mundane boilerplate (spaceflight) makes this a publicity stunt, and all of the statements, tweets, and videos are advertisements. There is nothing wrong with that and it's quite obviously very effective and good for business. But we should not structure this article the same as an article about a creative work like a book or movie. WP:CSECTION explains why; in particular this article is really about a corporation and its PR, and as WP:CORG explains, segregating reactions or commentary about companies makes for poor articles. The top of the table on criticism shows two main approaches, reception section and integrated, and integrated is ideal for topics where public opinion is divided and motives are not universally agreed to be sincere. We all agree that Catcher in the Rye is a novel, and that the author intended it as a work of art. We don't all agree on the examples in the integrated section on the table above: PETA, George Soros. Integrating third party praise, analysis, and criticism is the most neutral method for handling this kind of topic. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:02, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

It's literally a road car that's been hurled into space. It's about the car. Maybe it's a spacecraft or technological advance. Calling it a "stunt" and "advertisement" is a pejorative opinion. It might as well be called a work of performance art, or even sculpture when you include Spaceman, the other objects and the video. These things are all opinions that should be presented as opinions, who said it and where. But for Wikipedia purposes we are documenting the car itself and how people respond to it. -- GreenC 18:01, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

You are projecting your own likes and dislikes into the article, rather than dispassionately following the sources.

Saying "it's about a car" is like calling a press release or a legal document a "piece of paper", or a sculpture a "piece of stone". We call Fountain (Duchamp) a work of art because that's what reliable sources tell us it is. It does happen to be just a urinal, and if there is significant (non-fringe) opinion that it is just a urinal, we can give those opinions appropriate weight in the article. If it deserves weight, we can cite those who say that the Magna Carta is "just a piece of parchment, nothing more". We call it a charter, a legal document, because our sources tell us it is, not because of what you and I and a bunch of anonymous editors happen to think.

Musk and SpaceX have taken the position that this is "just a car"; that it is out there in space "just to be silly", "because we can", etc. That whimsical tone is part of the image the company wants to project. Yet it's not just that, and he reveals a lot when he said "If we can send a Roadster to the asteroid belt, I think we can solve Model 3 production." Advertising Age, Business Insider, and the New York Times, among others saw a connection between Tesla losing 3/4 billion and this very public distraction. These sources, as well as Scientific American, have said it is not just a car. They have said it is a publicity stunt, a piece of corporate marketing and branding. It is not "just a car in space", it is a message. The overwhelming consensus tells us that, just like the overwhelming consensus tells us that the Magna Carta is not just a piece of parchment, it has symbolic meaning beyond whatever physical materials it is made of. You might happen to think that calling it a publicity stunt is "pejorative", but again Advertising Age, Business Insider, Scientific American, etc. think no such thing: they say it is a brilliant piece of corporate image making, and it shows how far Musk is ahead of his competitors. It is deliciously ironic that to make this an effective PR stunt, Musk must maintain a cool pose, not admitting what it is but performing for public appearances that he shoots cars off into space just because he is that chill.

It all comes down to WP:WEIGHT: the greatest weight from our best sources is that it is a PR stunt, and a very good one; a less weighty POV in our sources is that it is a bad, or harmful, or irresponsible PR stunt, and the least weighty but still significant POV is the position from Musk/SpaceX/fanboys that it's "just a car" they threw into orbit because "whatever dude". --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:16, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

• Separate. The lead and objectives sections do cite SpaceX, but only deal with facts about the payload. Nothing in there speaks to whether or not the whole business was a good or a bad idea. I'm for keeping facts, regardless of their source, in the lead and objectives (and payload and orbit) sections, and opinions in the reaction section.Fcrary (talk) 22:24, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Facts? If the Objectives section is merely "facts about the payload", what is the Roadster payload section for? The Objectives section begins by quoting Musk's justification for using a car. The whole point of the section is about why they used a car and not concrete. In the lead, first sentence quotes Musk's "something fun and without irreplaceable sentimental value" (straight from the press kit), speaking directly to whether or not it is a good idea. It's all SpaceX's exclusive soapbox until the very end. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:34, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. The Objectives section is about why the launched a car instead of some other sort of test mass. That section factually describes their stated reasons. It doesn't include any SpaceX statements arguing that those motives are good or bad. That wouldn't belong under Objectives. Now, if you have a non-SpaceX reference pointing out other motives (say about it being good publicity at little extra cost), that might have a place in Objectives, as in "Others have suggested that doing something "fun and silly" was not the sole objective..." As long as the text is phrases to describe, not judge, why they did it, it's about objectives. If it's people saying what they think about those motives, it ought to be under ``Reactions.Fcrary (talk) 22:51, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Factually? It parrots the company line. The Daily Mail takes the same servile approach to Musk’s every word, but our most reliable sources are generally agreed that it’s not for “fun”, it’s business. It sells cars and distracts from Tesla’s bad news financials. The stated motives are in dispute and that is why we cannot treat them as facts. —Dennis Bratland (talk) 23:16, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Let's try again. I wrote that "That section factually describes their stated reasons." That's correct. Note that I said "stated reasons." SpaceX stated what their reasons were, and the section accurately (factually) describes what the company said. What people (SpaceX and others) have said about their motives is a matter of fact. And stating those facts in the "Objectives" section seems reasonable. But there have also been many statements about whether or not people agree those motives, or what they think about the whole thing. That belongs in a separate "Reactions" section.Fcrary (talk) 23:30, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, in the most reductionist possible sense, you can claim that parroting the official company message from the lead to nearly the end of the article is "factual". That kind of naivete has never been what we consider neutrality; Wikipedia policy has always been to use your common sense, and be aware of the effective meaning of any content, not just the literalist fig leaf that "it's a fact that Musk really did tweet this, there for it's fine". The lack of secondary sourcing is evidence of the glaring problem with this. When all your sources are self-published media from the subject, you're effectively handing them their own private platform. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 00:23, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

• Keep reception section - How society reacts to the car is material enough for a section. For example is it a spaceship, a satellite, an art object? Is it a good thing or bad thing? Spacejunk or advertising? Much can be, has been and will be said. Currently it's NPOV because one editor has add many opeds from obscure sources of a singularly negative tone, it's looking not encyclopedic but a "list of bad things people said about the car". -- GreenC 18:49, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

"How society reacts" may or may not define an act. Someone charged with breaking the law might claim it is something other than a crime: they can call it an act of civil disobedience, or performance art, or a legitimate act of war, whatever. How we describe it depends on the judgement of history and of our sources. The Manson Family might claim that what they did was Helter Skelter (Manson scenario) -- whatver the hell that is, but we just call them murders. But we don't call George Washington a traitor or a terrorist or a common criminal, even though from a certain social or legal perspective, his acts could meet those definitions. It isn't up to SpaceX whether we treat this as just a car in space, or whether our entire approach is to treat it as a PR stunt. How a thing is defined is determined by the general consensus of our best sources, even if the actors/creators/owners/whatever define it otherwise. This article is not SpaceX's personal webspace: "a person or an organization that is the subject of an article does not own the article, and has no right to dictate what the article may say." We are not subservient to how SpaceX happens to have framed this. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:36, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes, but I think we have enough references to add something 'neutral' to the Objective section. I'd say something like "Others have noted the publicity value of launching a Tesla and suggested this may have been an unstated objective." Fcrary (talk) 21:05, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree, if we can't merge this into a single section, then at a minimum, each of SpaceX's claims as to why they launched a car into space should be followed by a summary of the general consensus among reliable sources that it is a successful, groundbreaking, and admirable PR stunt, or words to that effect. If we go that route, the minor point of view that it's a malevolent or failed or harmful PR stunt can be described in another section. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:41, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Edit request

Please add:

''[[Advertising Age]]'' agreed with ''[[Business Insider]]'' that the Roadster space launch was the "greatest ever car commercial without a dime spent on advertising", demonstrating that Musk is "miles ahead of the rest" in reaching young consumers, where "mere mortals scrabble about spending millions to fight each other over seconds of air time", Musk "just executes his vision."<ref name=Wnek2018>{{Citation |url= http://adage.com/article/special-report-super-bowl/advertising-marketing-elon-musk/312307/ |title= There's Advertising and Marketing, and Then There's Elon Musk |first=Mark |last= Wnek |magazine=[[Advertising Age]] |date= February 8, 2018 }}</ref><ref name=>{{Citation |title= Tesla created the world's best car commercial without spending a dime on advertising |first=Mark |last= Matousek |website=[[Business Insider]] |date=February 7, 2018 |url= http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-made-the-worlds-best-car-commercial-without-spending-money-2018-2  }}</ref> 

--Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:49, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

I think that "Reaction" section should be just removed because the selection of which particular "reactions" to mention is WP:OR (not just POV). The article is already a lot of fanboy whoo-ha, but that section makes it worse by reading like a gossip page. 98.216.245.29 (talk) 00:58, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Choosing which reactions to mention is what we call "editing Wikipedia". Somebody has to decide, because article content can't choose itself. The primary criterion is defined by due weight, as well as general content policy, and verifiability. If we're going to lead with quotes like "something fun and without irreplaceable sentimental value" or say it would carry the "silliest thing we can imagine", we've already levt behind simple facts and we're going to sound pretty gossipy no matter. So then we should at least try to balance everyone's expressions of feeling, jealousy, or irritation, and not just let Musk have the platform to himself. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 05:38, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

@Dennis Bratland: The page has been unlocked; feel free to add your proposed content yourself. — JFG ^talk 08:38, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Talking about space-junk implications is fine, but the section goes about the wrong way by turning it into an unencyclopedic gab-fest. Primary-sourced "reactions" (which is all the section really is) aren't notable. You choosing them and calling it "editing" doesn't make them notable. That's synthesis of a new idea, a POV, from primary sources, not "editing". The section is all "He says, and he says, and she says, and they say..." -- an unencyclopedic form. 98.216.245.29 (talk) 09:37, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. Section is NPOV because it's a collection of negative criticism from obscure sources and no sense of weight what in balance the world is saying which is by and large positive. -- GreenC 17:47, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Orbital parameters

There's a still bit of inconsistency in the various orbital parameters reported in the article, specially the aphelion distance. We should pick a reference and stick to it.

I downloaded the Cartesian heliocentric positions of Earth, Mars and the Roadster from JPL Horizons and computed the trajectory's actual aphelion and perihelion distances (for the next passages) instead of obtaining them from the osculating elements. They come out as 0.9860 AU and 1.6638 AU. Should we use these? Meithan (talk) 20:01, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Car year & other specs?

I have seen at least three different years claimed for this car: 2008, 2010, and 2018. I came here looking for a link to a more reliable source, but this article doesn't include this information or other specs about this Roadster. Would love to see basic specs added. 38.108.59.142 (talk) 22:39, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

38.108.59.142, VIN is possibly 5YJRE1A34A1000686, but a cite has not yet been located. Perhaps a resident who knows their way around the public records system in California may be able to do some research. It will likely confirm that the car was "built" in Hethel, England (Lotus factory) and then air freighted into the US for "final assembly" by Tesla Motors. The reason this content is not in the article is because we are lacking citations sources. When cites are located, it can of course be added. —Sladen (talk) 09:10, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Article title

See also, #Change article title? thread above.

The title was always sort of an unknown. Now that we know more about the mission, should we consider renaming it? I assume Elon owns more than one Tesla Roadster, so it's probably not super accurate to say this is "Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster" without further qualification. Something that was unknown until shortly before launch was the presence of Starman. Perhaps "Starman's Tesla Roadster" or "Starman and Tesla Roadster" or "Starman and his Tesla Roadster" would be better names? The Roadster belonged to Elon Musk, but now it more belongs to Starman than Elon, and Starman is a big hit so it's a shame to keep him from the title. Open to other article title suggestions as well! Keavon (talk) 12:43, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree that the current title places too much emphasis on Elon Musk, and is not descriptive enough of the article subject. I would suggest Tesla Roadster in orbit or Orbital Tesla Roadster, or simply Tesla Roadster (satellite). "Starman" does not necessarily need to be in the title, but this article should be mentioned in Starman (disambiguation). (Well, its already there as Starman (SpaceX).) — JFG ^talk 14:34, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

It's not in Earth orbit so it would cause confusion. It's not a satellite in the way we generally think of satellite's so it would also cause confusion. The article is mainly about the car after launch but is also about the car prior to launch. The article topic is a car. -- GreenC 17:53, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Rename to Tesla Roadster (boilerplate) per Boilerplate (spaceflight). 178.92.148.243 (talk) 18:09, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

How about Tesla Roadster in space. BatteryIncluded (talk) 18:16, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Boilerplate is a specialized term most people won't recognize what it means, and it was only a boilerplate for a while, now it's something else (what not sure). Of all suggestions so far Tesla Roadster in space is best, but I think whatever is done it should go through an RM given the controversial nature of the article. -- GreenC 18:53, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I'd approve Tesla Roadster in space. Note that the COSPAR database lists this object as "TESLA ROADSTER" (look for International Designator 2018-017A at Celestrak). — JFG ^talk 19:07, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

@GreenC: It's in orbit, just not in Earth orbit, I don't see much confusion possible here. I agree there would be more ambiguity if we called it a satellite. There was some discussion about calling it a "spacecraft" but that is also incorrect, as it lacks most features of a proper spacecraft (propulsion, attitude control, communications, thermal management, etc.) — JFG ^talk 19:09, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I think it would be a source of confusion for the non-space-aware(?) person. If you don't say orbit around what the natural conclusion is probably earth. Most things in the news (non-specialist) when speaking of orbit is about things in earth orbit. -- GreenC 19:39, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

One could go with Tesla Roadster in Heliocentric orbit (current state), but prior to that, it was Tesla Roadster in elliptical Earth orbit, and prior to that it was Tesla Roadster in a fairing, and Telsa Roadster stuck in an LA traffic jam, and sometime prior to that 38% of it started off in England. All of these types of titles have the disadvantage of only reflecting one particular state, and few are likely to meet WP:COMMONNAME (a quick WP:GTEST can help to sanity check proposals), as can writing the proposed phrase in the middle of a sentence to see if it works, or if every single use is going to require piping to make it work in natural language. —Sladen (talk) 20:18, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

• Tesla Roadster (spacecraft)? Per examples at Spacecraft#Unmanned_spacecraft is seems to classify as a spacecraft (it was instrumented, and transmitted data, even if that data's only purpose was images to build hype); Ratsat for example is another boilerplate that is considered a 'spacecraft' (at least in the loosest possible terms). Better name than any of the above and has a good ring to it too. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 20:25, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

One could argue that it may quality as an "artificial satellite" but a "spacecraft", no way. BatteryIncluded (talk) 20:30, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

@BatteryIncluded, Boilerplate_(spaceflight) refers to boilerplates as 'non-functional spacecraft'. It is a spacecraft, at least in the loosest definition of the word as used in spaceflight terminology. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 20:32, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Definition of spacecraft: spacecraft": "a vehicle designed for travel or operation in space beyond the earth's atmosphere or in orbit around the earth." Spin its wheels and see how much traction (delta V) it gets. BatteryIncluded (talk) 20:37, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

@BatteryIncluded Colloquially perhaps, but not per spaceflight definitions. If you want a reliable source: NASA JPL's Horizons database lists it as object -143205, "SpaceX Roadster (spacecraft) (Tesla)."[5] — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 20:43, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

A spacecraft is not defined by its location, but its design and function. BatteryIncluded (talk) 20:45, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

@BatteryIncluded; See [this source]. NASA described it “Tesla Roadster (spacecraft). Dummy payload from the first launch of SpaceX Falcon Heavy launch vehicle. Consists of a standard Tesla Roadster automobile and a spacesuit-wearing mannequin nicknamed Starman.". Sorry, but if NASA says it meets the definition of a spacecraft, you aren't going to convince me that the moniker is inappropriate. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 20:53, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

You can check it yourself by going HERE and clicking 'change' next to the "target body" and typing in "roadster". — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 20:59, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Convince the other Wikipedia editors. BatteryIncluded (talk) 21:02, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm not necessarily saying it is the best possible title, but it is the best I can come up with (and apparently NASA too). All of the others up above are ad hoc descriptors that fail WP:CONCISE or are completely made up. Tesla Roadster (boilerplate) is probably the next-best proposal above, but even boilerplates can be considered spacecraft, and even our own article on boilerplates lists the SpaceX roadster among Commercial spacecraft boilerplates. Unless something better is proposed, I think NASA's title is good enough for me. I am keen to see others weigh in. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 21:13, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I think (spacecraft) is probably best. If someone's trying to find the article, most people wouldn't think of boilerplate. The term is a bit obscure. Anyway, the article on Boilerplate (spaceflight) does say "(spacecraft)" and phrases like, "full-scale, non-functional boilerplate spacecraft..." So I think it's technically correct to use Tesla Roadster (spacecraft). On a related note (which I'm probably going to regret), do we know the Tesla separated from the second stage? Or was it broadcasting through the second stage's telecommunications equipment? Fcrary (talk) 21:44, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

For many days I looked for any information on a possible car-booster separation. Never found any, so I assume they remained together because SpaceX made no noise about further "accomplishments". BatteryIncluded (talk) 22:01, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

My understanding is that no, it did not disconnect, though I'm not certain of this. The Horizons listing seems to imply the attachment fitting as part of the listing, and NASA JPL isn't tracking any other objects from this launch, which heavily implies that they are travelling attached. However, I don't think we have official confirmation of payload non-separation. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 22:05, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for volunteering the correct interpretation of the database display: The code "(Spacecraft) (Tesla)" means the third stage (spacecraft) is still attached to the car (Tesla). BatteryIncluded (talk) 22:10, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

BatteryIncluded. I'm not sure what you mean by that, the listing currently refers to several titles on the data sheet: "Tesla Roadster (spacecraft)" and " Tesla Roadster (AKA: Starman, 2018-017A)" and "Target body name: SpaceX Roadster (spacecraft) (-143205) {source: tesla_s5}". I really recommend checking the listing yourself with the instructions above. Interestingly, it gives a payload weight of "~1250 Kg", which would imply the car alone. The terminology "(Spacecraft) (Tesla)" seems to have been slightly changed since the CNN source that I linked above was published. Update: sorry this sin't true, the listing in the search still includes this wording. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 22:21, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

FYI, Jonathan McDowell has confirmed with a SpaceX source that the Roadster was not separated from the second stage. The special PAF also includes a plaque with engraved names of SpaceX personnel. — JFG ^talk 04:22, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Sources

Lead does not adequately summarize the article contents

Something like 1/3 of this article is devoted to describing the reaction among experts and major media to the idea of shooting a car into orbit around the Sun, and to Musk's claimed reasons for doing so. I attempted to had one (1) sentence to the lead summarizing the gist of this reaction, but others deleted it again and again and again. How can you have an article lead that ignores so much of the article's overall content?

I suggest the lead needs to summarize all sections of the article, and if the very first line is going to be devoted to adoringly parroting Elon Musk quotes, then the least we can do is follow that with mention of what most responsible experts have to say about it. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 04:10, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Dennis Bratland, what is the extra sentence being proposed to be added? —Sladen (talk) 04:20, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Edit warring

@Dennis Bratland and GreenC: Stop edit warring! There's no rush to get the article how either of you might want it, and repeatedly reverting each other while saying, "You discuss it" "No, you discuss it!" is infantile. Just stop editing the article for the time being and engage in civil discussion. That's how Wikipedia works. And Dennis, you don't have to include everything that anyone and everyone says to be NPOV. To pick an extreme example, if some idiot says something stupid we don't have to include it just because it counters what someone else said. Not all commenters (in the media) are equal, and they don't all have to be given equal footing here. nagualdesign 04:12, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Dennis, I see you posted the section above while I was typing this. That's more like it. More of the same please. nagualdesign 04:17, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Nagual, that's absurd. If edit warring is so terrible, then editors who have reverted others again and again and again are no better. The kind of hypocrisy one sees in these situations is disgusting. It's entirely based on a double standard that "it's OK when I do it because I'm righteous".

Your strawman argument is silly: I never said "all" responses should be included. I specifically mentioned fringe theories that we should not mention at all, such as anything based on the Earth being flat, or angering space lizards with our hubris. The irrational fear of space collisions or space junk, based on the incorrect belief that the car is in Earth orbit, or that the solar system is so crowded that a car out there is a hazard, or that it would have been any better to launch some concrete blocks rather than a Roadster, are not fringe. They are based on misinformation and faulty reasoning, but we have already been through numerous mainstream sources who hold these faulty believes. Sadly, we now are back to another version that ends with a calm reassurance that there is no risk that the car will collide with anything, without any context explaining why such a reassurance is needed. If a need exists to explain that a collision is not likely, then those who fear a collision are not mere fringe lunatics. Otherwise we'd need to reassure everyone that there are no angry space lizards.

More importantly, I don't ask that every response must go in the lead. That is your strawman attack. All I ask is for any. Any mention at all of non-SpaceX messages. We currently have no mention whatsoever of any reaction, even though much of the article is devoted to the reaction. The near-universal consensus among respectable, mainstream reliable sources is that this is not just about Musk being a chill dude with a cool sense of humor. There is near-universal consensus that he is a master showman and this is a brilliant PR stunt.

What is so embarrassing about all that? Put aside your feelings and defer to what the sources say. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 04:25, 12 February 2018 (UTC)