Talk:Gideon Levy

More on general edit

Setreset, I numbered your complaints so it would be easier to relate to them. Here is the status of the article as it now stands:

(1) Awaiting your reread of Le Monde and Der Spiegel articles to determine if statements were praise or not.

(2) Awaiting clarification on your part: Why is "anti-Israeli" not neutral?

(3) Style disagreement on whether direct quotes are suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia.

(4) Done. Removed "ostensibly".

(5) Done. Removed comments by civil rights groups

(6) Awaiting your specific suggestion for rewording.

(7) Done.

(8) Awaiting clarification: Which cite, and how was translation changed?

(9) Done

(10) Done: original footnote with translation restored

(11) Done

--Ravpapa (talk) 08:29, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Fashionably late, I am adding a response: I am content with the reception section as it stands. Impolite on my part to leave it like that for so long, I followed the article from time to time but didn't see this request for comment. Setreset (talk) 13:36, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

"Reception" section unbalanced?

In the "Reception" section of the article, approximately three times more space is given to criticism, than to praise of Levy. Is this balanced? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prunesqualer (talk • contribs) 23:03, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I guess it depends on whether there's approximately three times more criticism than praise in reliable sources. I don't know whether that is the case. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:41, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Before choosing to leave the "Reception" section unbalanced, in terms of criticism v praise for Levy, Prehaps we should explore the validity of doing so (rather than complacently exposing the article to charges of bias)? 1/ Has a reliable study been performed into the relative amount of criticism v praise levy has received "in reliable sources"? The answer, of course, is almost certainly not, and probably never will be. Therefore we can't base the proportions of criticism v praise on the amount of raw material. 2/ Do we then just leave it to a Wiki POV war ie the ones who shout longest and loudest get the most space? My experience is that this leads to messy, sometimes unreadable articles, where balance gets trampled underfoot. In this instance I suggest that the way forward is for sensible editors to trim the "Reception" section to make it, readable informative and balanced. Prunesqualer (talk) 15:40, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

With all due respect, and as one who is pretty intimately familiar with the material (and who also had a hand in wresting this article from the clutches of the POV warriors), I would suggest that the article as it stands reflects pretty accurately the situation. You don't have to read carefully between the lines of this article to see that the criticisms of Levy are almost entirely politically motivated, very vociferous, and generally lacking in substance, while the praise is much sparser and much more substantive.

Of course, if you can find more documented material praising Levy's journalism, you are welcome to add it. It would, however, be improper and imflammatory to delete sourced criticisms, just to make the praise and criticism sections the same size.

Who was it, and in what context, did someone say, "It's not the size, it's how you use it"? --Ravpapa (talk) 17:23, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Hamlet, first draft. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:40, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Or Jenna Jameson, first scene. nableezy - 18:02, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Compared with other articles on controversial writers, this one is reasonably well balanced; credit to those who have worked on it. One thing that could be done would be to list the awards that Levy has won, rather than say "numerous other awards" - which a reader can't even look up in the source if they don't speak Hebrew. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:08, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

oPt or IoT?

Levy has written a few things about the Golan, but mostly that Israel should return the territory in exchange for peace with Syria. He hasnt, as far as I know, written about the actual occupation of the Golan as he has about the occupation of the Palestinian territories. So, should the text read a vociferous critic of Israel's policies in the Israeli-occupied territories or something like a vociferous critic of Israeli policies in its occupation of the Palestinian territories? I prefer the latter. nableezy - 19:46, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

or, perhaps, Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip. (There were, after all, plenty of Palestinians who lived once in the Golan). --Ravpapa (talk) 07:06, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I dont know, I prefer "its occupation of" or "the Israeli occupation of". He isnt just criticizing certain policies in those territories, he criticizes the occupation itself. I think the sentence should be worded so that it reads that his criticism is directed against the occupation. nableezy - 14:34, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Whatever. "All our words are but crumbs that fall down from the feast of the mind." (Khalil Ghibran). --Ravpapa (talk) 12:41, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

But while we are feasting, what particular crumbs should we pick up? My point is that he writes about the occupation itself, not about the territories. So the line should be about his criticism of the occupation. nableezy - 17:39, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

"left wing critic of Israel"

Wow, just wow. Jaak, could you please provide solid (BLP worthy) sources to support the factual assertion that Levis "is a prominent left-wing critic of Israel"? Or why you reinserted your favored phrasing of the first sentence that had been rejected in the past? nableezy - 16:48, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Jaak, why are you reopening disputes that were settled after a long and arduous negotiation? Read the talk page. There was extensive negotiation on the entire article with you and Setraset, which concluded with your acquiescence with the article as it is currently written. The agreement has held up for almost a year. Moreover, the article as it stands has garnered praise from a number of uninvolved editors. Your attempts to reopen disagreements which were settled is merely disruptive. --Ravpapa (talk) 18:50, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Jaak has again reverted to include his favored lead. The edit has been reverted by RolandR, but Jaak you are going well past what is acceptable editing behavior for a BLP. nableezy - 17:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Intro:
1) The sources in the article support both 'left wing' as well as 'critic of Israel'. This is factual as well and Levy himself wouldn't argue. What's the problem exactly???
2) Levy's opinions are just that and there's no need for the fluff. Please don't suggest I ever agreed to that fluff, that is false.
3) Would be nice to get a 'to the content' relevant response rather than a generic accusation that everything is bad!!!!!!!! without even looking at the sources and the phrasing.
Warm regards, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 22:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I want you to supply sources for what you wrote. A hand wave to supposedly existing sources is not acceptable. I also want you to explain why material that has consensus on this talk page is routinely removed by you and replaced with material for which there is consensus against including. nableezy - 23:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

EI interview

A rare voice of courage: journalist Gideon Levy interviewed David Cronin, The Electronic Intifada, 31 March 2010. Might be useful. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:53, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Mass revert

Diff - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gideon_Levy&action=historysubmit&diff=394415452&oldid=394411458
a) are the changes to the bio agreeable? if not, why?
b) please explain "introduce POV assessment".
Warm regards, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 18:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC) add diff 18:02, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

A section was opened yesterday about your recent edit and why it is inappropriate. Instead of reinserting it you could have responded in that section. Bye. nableezy - 18:15, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't mind using that section to discuss the lead. I do expect RolandR to respond here to both my points. Hopefully with content related replies that suggest he's interested in the page and not just tag-teaming for you since you are under 1RR restrictions+. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 22:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Jaak, Im sure Roland and Ravpapa can speak for themselves. We all independently have problems with the hatchet job you have repeatedly attempted to insert into this BLP. Such editing behaviory is not acceptable and can lead to your being banned from Wikipedia. Matter of fact, please continue, it would be for the best if you made that edit again. Would make an AE case against you very easy. nableezy - 23:28, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

New attempts at revising this article

As I noted above, and in my comments regarding Jaakobou's complaint against RolandR and Nableezy, Jaakobou has recently renewed attempts to restore language that was removed nine months ago. The current version of the article is the result of a long negotiation, in which Jaakobou was involved, which concluded with a consensus that has held up for nearly a year. That is not to say that the article cannot be revised and improved.

However, I think it proper to insist that any substantial edits be discussed on the talk page before editors go off and make changes that are necessarily contentious.

Thank you all for your cooperation, --Ravpapa (talk) 14:00, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I tend to disagree with the above statement. Could you please show me where I, or anyone for that matter, was involved in a consensus building discussion that ended with everyone agreeing on the usage of the descriptives "vociferous" or "politically and emotionally charged"?[1] If this terminology strikes a few of you as neutral, I would beg to differ and am willing to either negotiate for better language or bring this to a wider community. Let me know. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 22:24, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Whether or not you were involved, it is clear that today you do not consider "vociferous" and "politically and emotionally charged" to be neutral. What side do you think these terms support? --Ravpapa (talk) 05:38, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

"Vociferous" is an inappropriate descriptive to Levy's style of criticism and "politically and emotionally charged" is needlessly sentimental. Both are not neutral terminology without supporting anyone. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:20, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, you do not consider the terms non-neutral, but rather inappropriate for inclusion in the Wikipedia. I disagree, but am willing to cede on the point.

Here are some alternatives to "vociferous": outspoken, vocal, vehement. We could also remove the adjective altogether. Tell me which you prefer.

As for "politically and emotionally charged", we could replace it with: "sensitive", "controversial"; or we could remove the description altogether.

I must say, as one who is familiar with your own views on these matters, that removing the modifiers from this paragraph would make Gideon Levy appear less controversial and more mainstream - something that, I believe, would be contrary to your own taste. But I leave the decision in your hands. Regards, --Ravpapa (talk) 07:13, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I have no intention on making him more controversial than he is. I do care that several editors have tried to portray him in different light than reality. If you've payed attantion, you'd have noticed that from the arguing parties, I'm the only one to insert actual biographical data. To the point of discussion: Would you mind reviewing my last version on the intro and suggesting where there might be objections and where you agree with my changes?

Current version

Suggested version

Gideon Levy (Hebrew: גדעון לוי‎; born 1953) is an Israeli journalist and editor for the Haaretz newspaper, and is a vociferous critic of the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories. Levy's weekly column in Haaretz, "The Twilight Zone", deals with the politically and emotionally charged subject of the hardships of Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, and their conflicts with the Israeli military and Jewish settlers. He has been called everything from a "propagandist for the Hamas"[1] to a "heroic journalist"[2]. He has won awards for defending human rights, and has been called a possible security risk by a former cabinet minister. In addition to his work at Haaretz, Levy has published a book, hosted a television show, and edited or written documentaries and other programs.

Gideon Levy (Hebrew: גדעון לוי‎; born 1953) is an Israeli journalist and editorial board member for the Haaretz newspaper. Levy is a prominent left-wing critic of Israel and Jewish Settlers, to whom he attributes "the hard reality on the Palestinian side".[1][2]-[b] Levy publishes on the weekly column "Twilight Zone" of Haaretz since 1988 and is a regular participant and a representative of the left-wing in a television panel on the TV show, "Moetzet Ha'Hahamim" (Trans. 'The Committee of the Wise'). Levy has also published a book, hosted a television show, and edited or written documentaries and other programs. Levy was awarded the Emil Grunzweig Human Rights Award in 1996 for his promotion of Palestinian rights and received an Israeli journalism award in 1997.[3][4][2] Due to his criticism towards Israel, Levy has been called everything from a "propagandist for the Hamas"[5] to a "heroic journalist"[6].

Let me know what works for you and what doesn't.

Warm regards, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 17:03, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Here are my criticisms of your version of the lead:

• "Left-wing" - You are very enamoured of this expression, but it is unquestionably out of place in this context. In Israeli politics, "left-wing" generally is synonymous with "opposed to the occupation". In that sense it is accurate, but unnecessary - the lead already states pretty clearly that Levy is opposed to the occupation, so the addition of "left-wing" adds nothing. However, in other countries, left-wing implies a whole package of opinions, including, primarily, an economic agenda.

Levy's views, as extreme as they may seem to Israelis, are quite mainstream in most European countries, and not particularly left-wing in America, either. On other matters identified as "left-wing" throughout the world, Levy has expressed no particular opinion. So it is misleading and even wrong to call Levy "left-wing".

(You could, I suppose, make this clearer by describing him as a representative of "the Israeli left-wing", which might make it clear to cogniscenti that we aren't talking about economic or social policy, but, as I say, it adds nothing.)

• "critic of Israel" - there are many things to criticize about Israel: its economic policies, its foreign policy, its policies on international law, environment, governance and on and on. Levy criticizes one aspect of Israel - its policy toward Arabs within Israel and in the occupied territories. I see no logic in replacing a lead that states specifically what Levy criticizes with a vague statement that he criticizes "Israel".

• 'Levy is a prominent left-wing critic of Israel and Jewish Settlers, to whom he attributes "the hard reality on the Palestinian side".' This is bad English. The sentence is convoluted and unclear.

• Moreover, the sentence suggests that Levy's attribution of Palestinian suffering is essentially an editorial comment. To anyone who has read his articles (I assume you have), this is clearly not the case. Levy reports on events about which there is no factual dispute - for example, the uprooting of olive trees by Palestinian settlers, the demolition of water reservoirs by the military, the expulsion of Palestinian residents from their homes by the Military Government. You may argue, and perhaps correctly, that these acts were justified - that the reservoirs were built without permit, that the residents were squatters, that the olive trees constituted a security risk - but there is not dispute about the basic facts. The suffering of the Palestinians, whether justified or not, was caused by the settlers and by the military. So the implication that cause of the suffering is an editorial interpretation of Levy's is inaccurate and misleading.

Note that the lead as it currently is written does not attribute blame to one side or the other, as you are so eager to do; on the contrary, it says that Levy describes "the hardships of Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, and their conflicts with the Israeli military and Jewish settlers." This, I think, is an accurate way of describing the content of Levy's column.

• "Left-wing" - there it is again. Why is this term so important to you? It is misleading in almost every context where you have used it.

• "Due to his criticisms of Israel" - here it is again, the vague preferred over the specific. The phrase adds nothing but obfuscation.

Now that I have told you specifically what I feel is wrong with your version of the lead, please tell me what you think is wrong with the current version. That is, aside from the words "vociferous" and "politically and emotionally charged" which I have agreed to revise. --Ravpapa (talk) 17:38, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Well,

1) Israeli left wing: I'm not enamoured with the term "Left-wing". The term is mentioned about Levy just about everywhere so your concerns that it has different meaning in Israel than in other places is the only one that we should take into account. The term on its own, being that it is prevalent without being considered a pejorative, should be used. The most logical solution I can think of to your concerns here would be to link the term with Israeli left-wing politics. Does this work?

2) Critic of Israel: English is not my first language but the phrasing is pretty clear IMHO - "critic of Israel and Jewish Settlers, to whom he attributes...[Palestinian hardships]". Would you like to consult an external English expert so we can find a perfectly grammatical phrasing? In general, Levy also attacks Israel on just about anything but that's besides the point. I think your concern here is over-protective and that the text is pretty accurate. If you find the grammar to be the concern, I'm certainly open to asking a grammar nut to help sort this one out. Is that acceptable?

3) Hard reality on the Palestinian side: You're very wrong assuming that "Levy reports on events about which there is no factual dispute". He was attacked on multiple platforms and by multiple people for inaccuracies and false information.Sample: Jump to number 3. In general, I'm not here to argue whether Palestinians have a hard time or not but rather, the article is meant to present Levy's perspective in a fair manner without propaganda in either direction. I'm open to external review on this matter but I do feel that my suggested rephrase is far more encyclopaedic than "[his coloumn] deals with the politically and emotionally charged subject of the hardships of Palestinians". That sentence lacks Levy's perpetual context of Settlers and Israel as his perceived culprits and is inflated with 'emotions'. Like his perspective or not is really not the issue - the accuracy of our report on the subject is the issue. Can you see my point here?

4) "propagandist for the Hamas"[5] to a "heroic journalist"[6]: I'm not really following why you call the explanation on these descriptives "obfuscation". Perhaps you can explain this further because I really don't follow how you'd like these terms explained. If you feel that the earlier phrasing is better, I'm willing to cede on this suggestion and maintain the earlier one - though I do think this one is clearer. Let me know.

5) I'm glad we're making progress. but please don't make assumptions about the Israeli general perspectives or about mine -- you don't see me suggesting you think that x and y is ok/good/bad/etc. Lets stick to our subject please.

Warm regards, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 23:08, 13 November 2010 (UTC) +c 23:11, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

I prefer to see as little description by WP editors as possible. Let's let the sources do the work. Another thing I'd see as cleaning up is to cut down the amount of Hebrew in the article. I appreciate that someone who speaks Hebrew better than English could be frustrated by an English translation that will inevitably lose a little bit of nuance - on the other hand there is Hebrew Wikipedia to refer to. I'm going to make a sweep through the article, making changes that aren't intended to introduce any bias. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:36, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

The only place with Hebrew on the page is the 'References' section. Original quotes are provided for the translations so that they can be easily validated for contentious materials. Please do not remove this. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 23:48, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

I didn't take the quotes out of the references section. I know that there is policy to include the original of quotes. It is a bit confusing though, because there is more than one quote in the references. I just took out the name of the school and one other thing. See what you think. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:51, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'm happy with the two Hebrew terms you took out. No one will be able to know what documentary is mentioned or what school he went to without the Hebrew clarifications. I did not review the other changes yet -- but the Hebrew issue, even if I disagree here, is not something I'm thinking to fuss over.

p.s. would be great if you can help us resolve the intro issues - I'm quite unhappy with the current lead - eventhe after your changes. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 23:58, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

With the documentary, could the Hebrew name perhaps go in as a footnote? One thing to consider is: if someone wants to follow up or know more about the documentary what help can we give them? Is it notable enough for a Wikipedia article - only a few documentaries are? Or could we perhaps give some more details of when it was shown so that someone could look it up on a website. As for the school, is it a notable school? It's probably a good idea to give the name of a school when it is known, but many biographies do without. Is the crucial thing that it was a local school? Isn't it more of a priority to say when he went to university and got his degree(s) - it's in the infobox but not mentioned inline. I don't have very strong views over these things either, so do what you feel. Also for the intro, would you like to rewrite? I'm just thinking of the general principle in writing that you do the intro last, which is also important in Wikipedia because the intro must summarise the article. In controversial articles it may be best to make the intro as short as possible. Itsmejudith (talk) 00:42, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't mind the documentary name being in a footnote. The school is somewhat famous and I figure the name should be inline. As for the intro - look a little above to see the 'Current version' and the 'Suggested version' -- there were a few points of concern raised by Ravpapa and I replied to them trying to get a little closer to a consensus -- waiting on his response to see where we stand.

p.s. I noticed that a lot of biographical material was somehow removed since my older edits and I would like to reinsert at least some of it -- I can't recall if it included mention of his university studies, but they did include material on his experience as an aid to Shimon Peres.

Warm regards, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 04:48, 14 November 2010 (UTC) +c 04:50, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Continuing discussion about the lead

Jaakobou, that English is not your first language is painfully apparent in all of your edits. As for your suggestion that we refer the issue to an expert in the English language, I have a possible candidate: worked for 10 years for Associated Press, has published a number of books and edited numerous others, and works today as a freelance journalist and editor. That's me. I don't feel I need external help to correct my English.

You have argued with the points I raised, yet you refuse to respond to my question: what are your criticisms of the lead as it currently stands? I see that Itsmejudith has removed "vociferous" and "politically and emotionally charged" which were your only two documented objections. So what remains? --Ravpapa (talk) 05:50, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

I believe that at this point in time all 5 points in my above comment (diff) have not yet been resolved and it seems only natural to address them and achieve some minimal progress/agreement rather than open up more issues. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 12:55, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

I am cross-posting a message Jaakobou left on my talk page. Since it is germane to the discussion here, I feel that all the participants in this discussion should read it:

"You can't honestly expect me to participate after that personal assault.[2] I request that you remove the offensive content and work with me on this in a collegiate [sic] manner. I take my time to make carefully phrased rewrites and explain why I consider x or y to be important without insulting you. It seems only natural that you will be able to reciprocate."

It is unclear to me what part of my previous post was insulting to Jaakobou. Whatever it was, I am sorry that he feels he can no longer participate in this discussion.

In any case, it appears from his latest comment that he finds nothing wrong with the lead as it is. Under the circumstances, it is unclear why he wants to rewrite it. If he decides to rejoin the discussion, and finds some fault with the lead as it currently stands, I am sure everyone involved in this discussion will be glad to consider his concerns. Regards, --Ravpapa (talk) 17:41, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Starting fresh

Current version

Suggested version

Gideon Levy (Hebrew: גדעון לוי‎; born 1953) is an Israeli journalist and editor for the Haaretz newspaper, known as a critic of the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories. Levy's weekly column in Haaretz, "The Twilight Zone", deals with the hardships of Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, and their conflicts with the Israeli military and Jewish settlers. In addition to his work at Haaretz, Levy has published a book, hosted a television show, and edited or written documentaries and other programs. Levy has been called everything from a "propagandist for the Hamas"[1] to a "heroic journalist"[2]. He has won awards for his journalism, and has been called a possible security risk by a former Israeli cabinet minister.

Gideon Levy (Hebrew: גדעון לוי‎; born 1953) is an Israeli journalist and editorial board member for the Haaretz newspaper. Levy is a prominent left-wing critic of Israel and Jewish settlers, to whom he attributes "the hard reality on the Palestinian side".[1][2]-[b] Levy publishes on the weekly column "Twilight Zone" of Haaretz since 1988 and is a regular participant and a representative of the left-wing in a television panel on the TV show, "Moetzet Ha'Hahamim" (Trans. 'The Committee of the Wise'). Levy has also published a book, hosted a television show, and edited or written documentaries and other programs. Levy was awarded the Emil Grunzweig Human Rights Award in 1996 for his promotion of Palestinian rights and received an Israeli journalism award in 1997.[3][4][2] Due to his criticism towards Israel, Levy has been called everything from a "propagandist for the Hamas"[5] to a "heroic journalist"[6].

Rephrasing the discussion points of concern:

1) Israeli left wing: The term "left-wing" is mentioned about Levy just about everywhere. I suggest we link the term with Israeli left-wing politics to differentiate from the generic term 'left-wing'. Does this work?

2) Critic of Israel: "[Levy is a] critic of Israel and Jewish settlers, to whom he attributes...[Palestinian hardships]" is proper English and (a) more accurate representation of Levy, (b) sourced. Current phrasing: "known as a critic of the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories." presents him as dealing with one issue only, when he more often than not, attacks other issues as well -- e.g. [3][4][5]. I've already received one external opinion who stated that the suggested phrasing seemed reasonable but if there's still a grammar concern, please explain where it comes from.

3) Hard reality on the Palestinian side: Levy's reports are often attacked as "publicist" content. i.e. opinion writing, rather than journalism. His accuracy has been attacked by respectable journalists.Sample: Jump to number 3. The article should present his views, but without taking or giving them extra credit. Current phrasing is "[Levy's column], deals with the hardships of Palestinians..." -- is, (a) inaccurate - see examples, (b) phrased to assert the stories he tells. My suggested phrasing, among others, deals with this issue. I am open to other rephrase suggestions but am against the current phrasing.

4) "propagandist for the Hamas"[5] to a "heroic journalist"[6]: I'm not really following why Ravapapa called the explanation on these descriptives "obfuscation". An explanation to the terms is in order.

5) Security risk: For starters, the current phrasing -- "won awards...and has been called a possible security risk" -- is a bad mashup. Personally, I don't feel the security risk suggestion is notable enough for the lead -- it is a one time event and not a summary of a consistent issue - unlike the descriptives in (4).

Warm regards, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:46, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Jaakobou, I am glad you relented and decided to rejoin the discussion. As for your specific comments:

1. "Left wing": I'll make you a deal - you can call Levy left-wing, if I can call Ben-Dror Yemini right-wing.

2. "Critic of Israel": It is true that Gideon Levy has written on topics other than on Palestinian sufferings at the hands of the Israeli government and individual Israelis. Recently, for example, he wrote a column about his attendance at a reunion of reporters for the Israeli Army Radio station, where he started his career. Nonetheless, he is known pretty much as a one-issue writer. The examples you offer only reinforce my statement. The first - an article about efforts by the security forces to discourage Israelis from visiting Arab countries - could possibly be construed as a criticism outside the realm of Israeli-Palestinian relations, though its relationship to that is pretty clearcut. The second article is about the war in Gaza - are you suggesting that that war had nothing to do with Israeli Palestinian relations? The third was about the possibly unjustified arrest of two Palestinians against whom no charges (at the time of the writing) had been brought - something which he relates quite explicitly to the problem of Israeli attitudes toward Palestinians.

If you can point me to a body of articles that deals with criticisms of other aspects of Israeli policy or life, then this will definitely change my understanding of the breadth of Levy's work; we will then have to add references to other areas of criticism in the body of the article, before we can revise the lead as you recommend.

3. "hard reality of the Palestinian side". I don't know why you are so enamored of this particular phrase. It is awkward English, it is vague, and it doesn't say what I think you want to say. As for criticisms of Levy, I certainly would be willing to replace the existing criticism in the lead with Yemini's "baron of the lie factory" - that's a lot catchier than "propagandist for the Hamas". Before we do that, though, we have to include a reference to Yemini's article, as well as Levy's rebuttal, in the "Reception" section. If you agree, I will do that, but not today, as I am pretty busy today. As for "extra credit", I don't know what you are referring to. Can you give a specific example?

4. The "descriptive" I was referring to was your intended addition of "Due to his criticisms toward Israel". Aside from the fact that this is rather bizarre syntax ("criticisms of Israel" would have been much better), it is inaccurate. Levy was not lauded as "this heroic journalist" for his criticisms of Israel, but for his defense of the rights of Palestinians. Many Israeli journalists have offered criticisms of Israeli policies at least as scathing as Levy's - Yemini comes to mind here - but have not been lauded as heroic journalists. Your addition adds nothing, is bad English, and is fundamentally inaccurate.

5. As for your suggestion that we remove the security risk remark, I agree. It is poorly sourced as it is (the only source being the Democracy website - I looked for a newspaper reference but couldn't find one). The objective of the sentence is to show the range of reactions to Levy's writing (what you call a "bad mashup"), so the "this heroic journalist" quote should be balanced against a drastic criticism. Perhaps the propagandist for Hamas quote could go there instead.

Tell me how you want to proceed. --Ravpapa (talk) 12:57, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

1) Is Ben-Dror Yemini notable as being on a certain side of the political spectrum? Levy is but I'm not aware that Ben-Dror Yemini is as well.

2) I was using the source for describing him. He is known as a critic of Israel and Jewish settlers -- no matter the context of the article. Why them? "to whom he attributes...". It seems that you're coming around on this issue to agree if not with the rephrase suggestion, then at least with the idea that its not only criticism of the occupation but that there many are other topics -- mostly Israel and Jewish settlers. I'm open to other phrasings that engulf the matter, but I did put effort into my phrasing so that it fits the subject -- certainly better than the current phrasing.

3) I'm not enamoured with that phrase but I felt it explained how Levy sees things without asserting them one way or another (unlike the current phrasing). I have another suggestion in mind, in the general form of "[Levy's column] often tells stories of hardship from the Palestinian side".

3.1) Baron of the lie factory: I dunno. As catchy as it is, it seems like a BLP vio that the average person who agrees with his perspectives would consider removing from the page. I'm looking for a good long term phrasing that people won't want to delete on sight. Also, I'm not sure that he's been accused of lying often enough, unlike the accusation that his articles are repeating/useful-for Hamas propaganda. There was a calmer phrasing in the 7th-eye on how the public sees him, which might be better writing than the current "villain/hero" phrasing. What do you think?

4) You raise a valid point of concern which I gave some thought to already before coming up with my suggestion -- i.e. is the cause for the nicknames, his critique of Israel or his support for Palestinians. To be frank, the source we have (7th-eye) says that it is because of his criticism of Israel (and this is also the popular belief for why he's attacked) and I've already mentioned that "Human Rights Award... [for] Palestinian rights" on the same 2 sentence paragraph. I'm open for other suggestions but we should probably stick to what the source says--which is also the reality of things. People don't like him (the nicknames issue), not because he promotes Palestinian rights, but because he attacks Israel all the time, no matter the context and issue (see examples).

5) Closed: I'm glad we closed this issue -- security risk -- out of lead.

Always good to make progress, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 18:26, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with most of Ravpapa's specific rebuttals of Jaakobou's proposed text. But I don't agree that we should label Levy as "left-wing", irrespective of any description of Yemini. Israelis may live in a bubble, where the national/security situation is the only political issue, and everyone who stands outside the consensus is automatically defined as left-wing; but this means little elsewhere. For most people, and most readers of Wikipedia, the term "left-wing" would signify a position on economic issues, rather than on the iniquities (or benefits) of Israel's occupation. So labelling Levy as left-wing would ascribe to him political positions which he may not hold, and which are certainly not described in the article. It would not be in any way helpful. Levy is known because he opposes Israel's occupation, and vividly describes its impact on its Palestinian subjects. I suspect that his enemies (not referring to any Wikipedia editors) describe him as left-wing in an attempt to smear him; though for many of us, of course, the tag would have the opposite effect. Whatever the motivation, this is an unhelpful, and possible misleading, description. We can state that others so describe him; but we should not do so in Wikipedia's own voice. RolandR (talk) 18:53, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

"Enemies"? The Israeli left-wing is the camp which promotes concessions for peace and Levy associates himself wilfully with that camp. Just because "left" may mean something else in Israel doesn't mean that we should censor the term that is often used in reference to Gideon Levy. On that same note, Ehud Barak is also part of the Israeli left-wing. Levy is described as "recognized with the Israeli left" in the Hebrew wikipedia. Censorship of mainstream, notable opinion is not part of the Wikipedia project. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:10, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Jaakobou, it is very hard to conduct a rational discussion with you, because you consistently ignore or misread things that I write, and your posts are often unintelligible.

"I was using the source for describing him." What source? What are you talking about?

"It seems that you're coming around on this issue" of calling him a critic of Israel. Did you read what I wrote? I am not coming around. I wrote (I thought pretty clearly) that Levy is mostly a one-issue writer, and that the examples you brought ostensibly to show that he writes on many issues do not show that; on the contrary, they reinforce my contention. No, "critic of Israel" is vague, inaccurate, and not acceptable.

"...without asserting them one way or another (unlike the current phrasing)": Please explain which way or other the current phrasing asserts. I have no idea what you are talking about.

"... the source we have (7th-eye) says that..." Jaakobou, there is agreement that Arutz Sheva is not a reliable source. Please read this.

Please reread the discussion from beginning to end, try again to understand it, and then state your reservations about the current lead clearly and cogently. Then we can discuss them. Thank you, --Ravpapa (talk) 19:35, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

In the suggested version "to whom he attributes 'the hard reality on the Palestinian side'" isn't intelligible English. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:16, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

It's not Gibberish. I've already received a 3rd opinion that it is a reasonable phrasing, grammatically speaking. Anyways, I've suggested another alternative. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:46, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Ravpapa, I apologize if something was lost in translation,

2.1) The source I was referring to is marked as [2]-[b]: i.e. "7th-eye", ^-[b] Translation: On the otherhand it was argued that his work reflects with loyalty the hard reality on the Palestinian side, and that the harsh responses he is receiving derive from the portrait that is reflected from the mirror he places in front of the Israeli public.

2.2) You have a point, I may have assumed something into your writing (wishful thinking?). From your notes: "The first...[possibly] criticism outside [Israeli-Palestinian relations]", "The second...war in Gaza...Israeli Palestinian relations", "The third...[relates to] Israeli attitudes toward Palestinians."
All 3 articles are not about the Israeli-Occupation (current version). The first, about travel alerts, the second, Israeli society "thirst for blood", the 3rd, Israeli Arabs. The articles are not about the occupation, and I believe only the 3rd uses the term occupation and only in reference to Arabs in Israel wanting to marry Arabs from occupied territories. Basically, all 3 go to show that the current phrasing misrepresents his wide range of topics to attack Israel with. If you want, I have no objection to a rephrase that uses the term "Israeli-Palestinian relations" since at least the latter 2 fit this -- the current phrasing is not good though. Agreed?

3) When we take for granted that there are hardships on the Palestinian side (pretty obvious_, we also might take for granted that his column "deals with the hardships of Palestinians" (current version). But Levy's column doesn't deal with them, it repeats stories, narratives with little to no fact checking -- another sample. I am suggesting a rephrase that will not give complete credence to his storytelling but will still explain his perspective. I gave 2 suggestions for rephrasings.

4) You're a little confused. the 7th-eye is not remotely connected with Arutz Sheva. It is a completely mainstream industry related magazine.

Sorry about the confusion, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:46, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't see where you suggest an alternative phrasing. Do you know what the phrase "hard reality" means in English? It means reality, which is always with us. Everyone has "hard reality" if we want to look for it. So it cannot be that settlers are responsible for it. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:52, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

What Jaakobou apparently refuses to acknowledge, despite the comments of several English-speaking editors, is that the text he is proposing to insert is simply not written in good, or even intelligible, English. It may be a literal, word-for-word, translation of the Hebrew original; but that does not turn it into acceptable English prose. It was clearly written by someone for whom English is a second language; or by a machine. It does not say what he intends it to say, and would not be understood by most English speakers.

On another point, Jaakobou is correct about the Seventh Eye. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Arutz Sheva. It is a publication of the Israel Democracy Institute,a clearly mainstream/liberal organisation, and I believe it to be a reliable source. I have not yet tried to verify that it says what is attributed to it; but I see no reason not to use this source. RolandR (talk) 21:15, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

RolandR,

Thanks for the support on the 7th eye source. I hope this is intelligible enough. WP:DICK.

Itsmejudith,

Regardless if I agree/disagree on the assertion that "hard reality"=="reality", the issue of concern is that Levy does not always report on reality but rather tells a story as it was conveyed to him -- I've attached a few sample sources that talk about this issue. For this, the phrasing should be changed.

Warm regards, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 00:34, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand the significance of the WP:DICK comment above. If it is directed at me (as a superfluous comment on my talk page suggested), then I request that you strike it out. Otherwise, please explain what you mean by this. RolandR (talk) 11:40, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

You're behaving poorly and against the purpose of the wikipedia project. I hope that's clear enough. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 12:53, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I object to these personal remarks, which are entirely baseless and play no part in moving this article forwards. I request that you strike them, and withdraw your claim that I am "behaving poorly". RolandR (talk) 15:13, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

You are behaving extremely poorly. To be frank, you're not alone here at this, but definitely an active participant in this "[un]intelligible" game. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 13:35, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

If you have any genuine objections to my behaviour, you should raise them at the appropriate noticeboard. Otherwise, kindly desist from your baseless personal attacks. RolandR (talk) 14:11, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

You're making as much sense as a child who sticks out his tongue close to his brother and says "I'm not touching you". Making personal attacks and then complaining that someone else calling you on it is a personal attack is just dumbfounding. I hope I'm being intelligible enough here. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 00:58, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Yet another fresh start

In spite of the difficulty I have in understanding what Jaakobou is trying to say, I think he has a point when he says that Levy's writing is not only about the occupation. I therefore suggest another version of the lead:

Gideon Levy (Hebrew: גדעון לוי; born 1953) is an Israeli journalist and senior editor for the Haaretz newspaper, and a leading critic of Israeli policies and attitudes toward Palestinians and other Arabs. Levy's weekly column in Haaretz, "The Twilight Zone", documents incidents of violence and discrimination against Palestinians, and attributes these to a "brainwashing machine... [that] makes people so full of ignorance and cruelty." His articles have led to many attacks on his politics and his veracity, including a scathing critique by Maariv editorial director Ben-Dror Yemini, who called him "the baron of the lying Industry"

This version describes much more accurately, in Levy's own words, his editorial position. It should satisfy Jaakobou's expressed concern that the description of Levy as a critic of the occupation is too limiting. It also puts the main criticism of Levy into the first paragraph of the lead, which should also provide the balance that Jaakobou seems to be looking for. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

It is an improvement, only that I feel you've included two extremes that I am uncomfortable with, i.e. "documents incidents" (which gives too much credence to his storytelling) and "lying Industry", which alleges everything he reports on is a Pallywood lie. I thank you, btw, for making an effort to both understand my concerns as well as making a rewrite attempt. I'll try to make minor changes to your version and see if that helps us come to a wide consensus (of 2) on what he hope to be a long term version. Btw, just now, was an article on ynet which goes to illustrate my point that Levy is widely notable as being considered part of the Israeli left wing -- [6]. I believe there is room to include the term somewhere but I do understand the concern raised about this term. If you have any ideas on this outside my above suggestion (of using Israeli left-wing), that would be great. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 08:31, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Quick question, for Jaakobou et al. Jaak, you said somewhere above "The sources in the article support both 'left wing' as well as 'critic of Israel'. This is factual as well and Levy himself wouldn't argue." Has Levy described himself as part of the Israeli left wing or something similar somewhere ? Left wing is kind of ambiguous by itself as has been noted but if it is a term that Levy himself wouldn't argue about I wonder how he phrased it or what terms he used to characterise his position. I favour leaving it out as it's ambiguous and I'm not a huge fan of assigning contentious static labels that link to contentious non-static articles written by wiki editors i.e. the label remains the same but the linked article's contents can change/say anything. However, I was curious whether he used the term himself. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:40, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I already checked his interviews with EI and the Independent to see whether he self describes as 'left' somewhere. He doesn't, so no need to check those. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:09, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Gideon Levy does not consider himself to be part of the Israeli "left". On the contrary, he has written scathing criticisms of the left. See this. So there is no question that calling Levy left-wing would be offensive to him. --Ravpapa (talk) 10:46, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. That's what I thought. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

You're going about it the wrong way as if one cannot criticise the camp which they are identified with. Levy, is identified everywhere as a notable figure from the Israeli-left wing. To be frank, he's considered an extremist in that camp[7] but I've no interest in pushing words like "extremist" as a factual descriptive in the lead. On point: There's already a few sources to him being of Israeli left-wing perspectives so the attempt to fight this seems strange. What exactly is wrong with being part of the Israeli left-wing that you're objecting this?? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 12:56, 18 November 2010 (UTC) +c 13:08, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

p.s. Ravpapa, I haven't seen a response to my concern that your rephrase is pushing the lead into extremes (e.g. "brainwashing machine"). Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 13:10, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Your last post said that you were going to make "minor changes", so I was waiting for that. However, since you ask, I find your comments confusing and contradictory. As for your wish to avoid "pushing the lead to extremes": These are two direct quotes, which accurately reflect the opinions of Levy and his chief detractor. This is what they said, not what I said. Do you want to distort their opinions to make them seem less vehement than they actually are? --Ravpapa (talk) 13:35, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Since Levy doesn't consider himself to be part of the "Israeli-left wing", who is it that considers him to be a member of that set ? "Right wing" commentators in Israel, the British press, the Chinese foreign ministry ? That is my concern with labels. If you want to label someone and they don't use that label themselves then you better say who does so that readers have an idea who is doing the labeling, it's scope or lack thereof etc. It's pretty easy to find some sources that label people but it doesn't mean the labels get into the articles. Here's one, the BBC. Profile: Benjamin Netanyahu "Netanyahu is one of the most right-wing and controversial leaders in Israel's history". I don't think he is described as right wing in the article. I'm not sure he would consider himself part of the "right wing" in Israel. Also, information/labels are transformed by sources. Your source says "In fact, Grossman said that both extreme-left journalist Gideon Levy and right-wing politician Effie Eitam had commented: “This is my book.”" The actual interview says "Gideon Levy [from the Left] and Effie Eitan [from the Right] both read the book and told me, "this is my book." They're opposites politically." Labels are inherently problematic unless you know who is assigning them. Sean.hoyland - talk 14:26, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

More than this: since Levy himself does not refer to himself as left wing, and is actually critical of the left wing, to call him left wing would be a violation of BLP, and potentially actionable. Therefore, without a reference to Levy referring to himself as left-wing, you cannot use the label. I thus consider the debate on "left-wing" to be closed. Move on to other things. --Ravpapa (talk) 14:48, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Small point to ponder.. where does Levy say that he's not in the Israeli left? (hint: he doesn't). We'll review this issue at a later time since there's other issues where we might be able to get some quick agreement. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 01:16, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Your recent changes

Jaakobou, your assertion that there is agreement on the changes you made is nothing less than astonishing. We have been arguing over whether it is correct to say that Levy is a "critic of Israel" with everyone except you arguing that that is an incorrect characterization of Levy's positions. Now you have made precisely that change, and contended that this is to "rephrase what he criticizes per agreement."

There is no such agreement. Please self-revert your edits immediately. Thank you. --Ravpapa (talk) 15:07, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Your comment seemed to agree that he criticises more than just the Israeli occupation (per "Levy's writing is not only about the occupation."[8]). Your version was a bit whimsy (per "brainwashing machine" and "baron of the lying Industry") but at least there was an agreement on the main point. I know Nableezy wants the words Occupation and Illegal inserted into the first paragraph of every article related to Israel but please don't tell me that you've decided to align yourself with him. I thought you were a more mature editor based on our discussions and your ability to accept facts when they are presented with clarity. Let me know. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:21, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

There was very obviously no agreement and somebody with a 4 year old's understanding of English can see that. Not one person but you has said that it is acceptable to label this living person a "critic of Israel" in the lead of the article. Please stop gaming. nableezy - 01:39, 21 November 2010 (UTC)