Talk:Great Barrington Declaration

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by St.nerol (talk | contribs) at 16:44, 19 March 2024 (→‎Focused protection – fringe?: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


NPOV - "dubious conclusions"

This seemed like a clear cut edit in favor of NPOV, but I was invited to discuss it here. To my eye, "controversial studies with dubious conclusions" is clearly a POV statement -- especially the assessment of dubiousness in Wiki voice. If people identify something as dubious, we should identify who they are saying so, not adopt that point of view ourselves. "Controversial studies" I can live with if it is supported in the text, as the statement in Wiki voice that it caused controversy does not support one side or the other. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:02, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The example given is climate change denial, are you saying that is not dubious? Slatersteven (talk) 17:07, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It does not matter what I personally think. This is a question about what should be presented in Wiki voice. If you can find a source (of encylopedic note, etc.) saying "Whatsis Org publishes dubious climate change denial papers", fine, put that in. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:38, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What's the problem with the existing two sources? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Probably that they do not use the exact word "dubious". As if paraphrasing were not allowed. --Hob Gadling (talk) 17:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, that is not the problem. The problem is that the position is adopted as if it was universal, and it is not; it should be attributed no matter what words you use to label the critique. ☆ Bri (talk) 19:19, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is exactly the problem: your opinion that it is not. Within science, it is. And science is what counts. Wikipedia will not pretend that your position, the denialist one, is the correct one. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:45, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hob, I think you've misread the situation here. Wikipedia should not describe anything as "controversial studies with dubious conclusions". That's a judgemental, opinion-laden statement. Even if it was a flat Earth organization, we still wouldn't use that wording. In cases like this, we need sources that explicitly say that this specific organization publishes false statements, and then we need to explicitly say that it explicitly publishes false statements. We can't go:
  1. The source says that they're skeptical of climate change's severity
  2. In our opinion, climate skepticism is just another word for pseudo-scientific climate change denial
  3. We'll decide ourselves that they're climate change deniers
  4. Rather than say that explicitly, we'll use a more subjective phrase like "controversial studies with dubious conclusions" to really drive the point home
It doesn't work that way. When a source says something, we have to say the same thing in our own words without introducing our own ideas or interpretations. And when the source makes an interpretation, then even that interpretation needs to be attributed. Sources have been found below that more directly address the falsehood of AIER's positions, so now it's just a matter of writing it in neutral wording that doesn't suggest we're judging them for it. In failing to do this, you've just accused another member of the community of being a climate change denier. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 15:20, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My main issue was with Bri's reasoning. is clearly a POV statement is wrong. AIER's reasoning is factually dubious.
The sourcing is a different issue. Yes, we should have sources about the GBD that explicitly call AIER denialist. Surprise: we already do. [1] The AIER itself is no stranger to such denialism. The logic you describe above is not the logic of Wikipedia editors, it comes from reliable sources.
Why did you not check the sources before accusing me of not having them? --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:51, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I did, in some detail. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 07:05, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So you missed the sentence The AIER itself is no stranger to such denialism, which makes your reasoning obsolete?
"Climate change skepticism" and "climate realism" are euphemisms for climate change denialism, but we do not even need to replace any of them since we have a source that uses the honest term itself. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Byline Times is an incredibly poor source for such a contentious claim. And how you interpret these terms doesn't matter; we cannot say in wikivoice that skepticism about the effects of climate change is the same thing as total denial of climate change. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 07:21, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
incredibly poor source Now that is better reasoning than the strawman above We'll decide ourselves that they're climate change deniers.
According to [2], Naomi Oreskes writes in AIER "promotes anti-scientific discussion of climate change, much of which promotes the familiar canard that climate change will be minor and manageable." I do not have that book, but Oreskes is a very good source.
DeSmog writes: An open letter that emerged earlier this month opposing COVID-19 shutdowns and calling for a “herd immunity” approach to addressing the coronavirus — which already has claimed over 220,000 American lives — is one of the latest examples of how right-wing ideology and think tanks that have long cultivated climate science denial are now engaging in COVID disinformation and promoting messaging dangerous to public health. [3] Also a good source. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:40, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Climate change denial is WP:FRINGE. Pretending that it may not be dubious is WP:FALSEBALANCE. You are pushing the denialist position, which is that climate change may have no merit. Doubt is Their Product. --Hob Gadling (talk) 17:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You're trying to pivot this to my position by smearing it as "pushing a denialist position" and so forth. Think about the article instead. Here's a list of places where "dubious" does not appear:
I think that's proper. The subject matter speaks for itself. Why does this need to be different? ☆ Bri (talk) 18:08, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We're supposed to paraphrase. That different articles paraphrase in different ways isn't a problem. MrOllie (talk) 18:25, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm... I think I see dubious reasoning indeed!
  • Energy medicine -> "pseudo-scientific belief"
  • Flat Earth conspiracy -> "contrary to over two millennia of scientific consensus"
  • Scientology -> "The Church of Scientology has been described by government inquiries, international parliamentary bodies, scholars, law lords, and numerous superior court judgments as both a dangerous cult and a manipulative profit-making business" True, the article doesn't say "dubious" or describe Scientology beliefs as nonsense.
  • List of cannabis hoaxes -> most are labeled "hoax" and the truth of most are explicitly denied in this list
So the point is that a bunch of fringe drivel is described as fringe drivel in a variety of way not using the word "dubious. Therefore it would be unfair to describe climate change denialist positions as "dubious." -- M.boli (talk) 18:39, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • We could definitely use a stronger word than "dubious" (similar to the articles linked above.) I would suggest AIER has published studies that promote discredited scientific positions, or AIER has published studies that contained scientific misinformation, or AIER has published studies with discredited scientific positions and scientific misinformation, all per [4]. I also feel we should probably go into a bit more detail about AIER in the lead, since such a huge amount of academic coverage focuses on that part. --Aquillion (talk) 19:27, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree. "Misinformation" is better than "dubious". --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:45, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The bigger issue is that, at least as the article is currently written, it isn't relevant. COVID policy is unrelated to climate change, and it isn't clear why that would be mentioned, and not, for example, their opposition to price controls or support of holding interest rates steady.
I propose just cutting the reference to climate change and punting the discussion to AIER's page, where their views on a variety of topics would actually be relevant. Techieman (talk) 20:56, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's relevant because, like climate change and unlike price controls or interest rates, COVID is a scientific subject, not an economic one, and AIER has a history of promoting junk "science" that furthers its own economic/political agenda. Reliable sources deem this to be relevant and important context, and so we can and do, too. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:44, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My problem with "dubious" in wikivoice is that it's a wishy-washy term that implies inaccuracy but doesn't state it outright. So regardless of whether the findings are good or bad, I wouldn't use dubious. I question whether this section needs to be here at all, as it's bordering on WP:COATRACK. But assuming it stays, we're going to need some strong sourcing to comment on whether a political organization's ideas are dubious or any other degree of wrongness.
For the climate change portion: Byline Times appears to be an alternative newspaper with a strong political slant, and The Berkshire Edge is a local publication. I'm not satisfied with either of these as sources for this purpose. That leaves what appears to be a high quality source from Energy Research & Social Science. The relevant passage:

The Koch funded institute created the Great Barrington Declaration, similar to the OSIM’s Petition Project, and includes climate sceptic authors Dr Jay Bhattacharya and Sunetra Gupta promoted by the counter-movement organisation the Heartland Institute.

That's it. We can say that AIER includes "climate sceptic authors". Anything beyond that would be original research unless there's a source applying a fact to GBD or AIER.
Now let's look at the sweatshop example. The first is labeled opinion, so I'm dismissing it out of hand. The second is a newspaper article, which isn't ideal but it's a good enough foundation. Here's the relevant passage:

The meeting was at the libertarian American Institute for Economic Research which is committed to “pure freedom” (whatever that entails) and wants the role of government “sharply confined”. It also has a history of funding controversial research, downplaying the environmental crisis, as well as pushing the upside of Asian sweatshops supplying multinational companies.

So we can say that it said that there exists an "upside of Asian sweatshops supplying multinational companies."
After looking at these sources, I have to seriously question whether the person who added them actually read them. Most are not high quality, and the ones that are of even decent quality don't support the claims being made. I propose the following text: The declaration was sponsored by the American Institute for Economic Research (AIER), a libertarian free market think tank based in Great Barrington, Massachusetts which has employed writers skeptical of climate change and has touted benefits of sweatshops. And that's my suggested compromise wording, because it gets rid of the OR issues, but it still leaves a lingering WP:COATRACK issue. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:56, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No comment on specific wording at the moment, but I propose the sourcing for the climate issue be replaced with Lewandowsky et al.'s (2022) "When science becomes embroiled in conflict: Recognizing the public’s need for debate while combating conspiracies and misinformation." in The Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science 700(1), which says a libertarian free-market think tank that has a history of bogus argumentation about climate change (e.g., by denying the scientific consensus) and that has recently engaged in similarly misleading argumentation about COVID-19 and Oreskes (2021) Why Trust Science? with promotes anti-scientific discussion of climate change, much of which promotes the familiar canard that climate change will be minor and manageable. (unless better sources are found; my search is hardly exhaustive). Alpha3031 (t • c) 03:02, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'd agree we need more robust sourcing and more robust wording, for NPOV. Bon courage (talk) 07:26, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support more robust wording, lets not weasel word the criticisms in the name of false balance. Slatersteven (talk) 10:20, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, these look like the sort of sources that would resolve the OR issues (and the types of sources that should have been used in the first place for a claim like this). Thebiguglyalien (talk) 15:04, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Was trying to find a source or two on the sweatshops as well but it seems that there is simply very little third-party coverage of the organisation and its activities. There is, of course, our article on it but that was sourced pretty much exclusively to ABOUTSELF up until this.
In any case, I would favour rolling it up into the previous sentence with ...which has a history of promoting [or, just "promotes" could work too] climate change denial [with or without wikilink] and the upside of Asian sweatshops
I'll probably raise the issue of the article on the think tank itself later, likely at AfD as a CONRED. Alpha3031 (t • c) 05:06, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

AIER appears twice in LEDE

.... it was sponsored by the American Institute for Economic Research (AIER), a conservative think tank,.....

....was sponsored by the American Institute for Economic Research, a libertarian free-market think tank associated with climate change denial....

Why do we use the word think tank anyway? Ain't that a WP:WEASEL word for spindoctors/propagandists? Polygnotus (talk) 09:48, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I merged the two mentions. No opinion on the rest. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:58, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Author comments

Perhaps of relevance: One of the original authors has written about the GBD and the courts: The Government Censored Me and Other Scientists. We Fought Back—and Won. | The Free Press (thefp.com) 2600:6C67:1C00:5F7E:C94F:538E:ED1A:5365 (talk) 19:22, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bit cringe, considering the circumstances, but OK. Polygnotus (talk) 22:42, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Service: [5]
As a source for the article, not OK. It's just a pseudoscientist putting his spin on his own story. "Wah, wah, we are being suppressed"? The GBD was everywhere, and still is. Suppression is something else. Get a better source if you want this. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:14, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not a neutral point of view

Has run its course. Bon courage (talk) 06:13, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This article starts off with "...lockdowns could be avoided via the fringe notion of "focused protection"..." Many epidemiologists would not consider focused protection to be a 'fringe notion.' What it is not a neutral point of view. Then, we are treated to somebody being financed by somebody else who supports 'climate change denial.' Linking the opinion of a trio of epidemiologists to opinions about climate change is a far fetched conspiracy theory. Frankly, if a communist government financed by medical education, that would not make me a communist. (In my case, it had the opposite effect.) Ask the authors of the GBD if you actually want to know, but presenting circumstantial evidence of such tenuous type gives not only the impression of bias but the type of bias that would make for Great Satire like https://babylonbee.com/news/biden-touts-productive-climate-change-meeting-with-french-leader-napoleon-bonaparte Such would not be admissible as evidence for Allsides or other legitimate fact checking source. What it does do is confirm for the reader just how rediculous this article is. I could go on and on, but I'll cut it short by saying that anyone who is centrist would discard this article as pathetically biased. 2607:FEA8:D661:6700:2813:2E15:9BC1:DF0 (talk) 02:40, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On Wikipedia, WP:NPOV means that we follow the POV of mainstream reliable sources. It does not mean false balance. MrOllie (talk) 03:04, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Name one "balanced" source for this article. 2607:FEA8:D661:6700:2D67:650:9DE6:8B8F (talk) 14:58, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
False balance is about how WE present sources, sources themselves to not have to be balanced. Slatersteven (talk) 15:04, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, but disallowing balanced mainstream media by projecting animus has lead to inappropriate animus in this article; the arguments are flawed, weak and unconvincing and it needs cleanup, for example, guilt by association is suspect, and climate change has no relationship to the GBD, just like Stalin's daughter was not a mass murderer. Another example, the John Snow Memorandum, read it yourself, is a tainted opinion piece, not a scientific report https://www.johnsnowmemo.com/john-snow-memo.html Moreover, the journal in which it was published, The Lancet, has a disturbing tendency for animus against individual researchers, and is very unscientific at times. This Wikipedia article is unconvincing, it needs work. 2607:FEA8:D661:6700:2D67:650:9DE6:8B8F (talk) 17:19, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What balanced mainstream media have we forbidden? Slatersteven (talk) 17:21, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Many, and when I have cited them, they have been promptly deleted. 2607:FEA8:D661:6700:541C:360A:B9B7:A4F4 (talk) 20:59, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is your only edit, perhaps it would be easier for you to give some exampleS. Slatersteven (talk) 21:17, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:5P2 "Editors' personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions do not belong on Wikipedia." You need to point actual relevant citations for what you want to say rather than go on about climate change and animus in the Lancet. NadVolum (talk) 21:22, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When I have provided relevant citations, they have been deleted using one excuse or another. Look, as it stands now this article is frankly rediculous. I could help you but it is nearly impossible to do so when the citations are removed because of editorial zeal for a particular narrative to the exclusion of others. Here is one such "Citation impact and social media visibility of Great Barrington and John Snow signatories for COVID-19 strategy" https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/bmjopen/12/2/e052891.full.pdf?with-ds=yes Furthermore, as the fact checkers from the left were all over this the author(s) had to defend themselves. I have a great deal of respect for BMJ, and have published in it myself. 2607:FEA8:D661:6700:541C:360A:B9B7:A4F4 (talk) 21:18, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If citations are removed, it is because they do not meet basic sourcing standards as given in WP:RS, WP:MEDRS and WP:FRIND. Your link there is a good example of something that doesn't meet FRIND. It is quite far from the 'balanced mainstream media' you were suggesting we were missing. MrOllie (talk) 21:32, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are paying attention to who says something and disregarding what is being said. The article cited is unbiased and not WP:FRIND. 2607:FEA8:D661:6700:541C:360A:B9B7:A4F4 (talk) 21:46, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Paying attention to who says something" is the very cornerstone of reliable sourcing, verifiability, and Wikipedia itself. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 22:29, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Suppose that if persons A and B say the same thing, and A is someone you like, but B is not, you then conclude that what A said was true, and what B said is false, even though they agree. That is nonsense. True enough, it is who you know and not what you know that gets you privilege, but that is corrupt. Seek truth, not tribalism. This is the second time just such a fallacy was exposed in this talk page. Above, in the House of Representatives Covid hearing section, two sources cited the same video, one was considered "bad", and the other "good" but were otherwise identical. Look at content to determine truth, not reputation. Reputation, is an ad hominem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem argument, widely recognized as illogical, here on Wikipedia as elsewhere. 2607:FEA8:D661:6700:C41E:7E07:193F:DC72 (talk) 16:26, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are welcome to think that Wikipedia's content policies are nonsense, but we're still going to follow them. MrOllie (talk) 16:28, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia's policies are not nonsense, but using them to present falsehoods as truth is. Clearly this is a matter of interpretation. 2607:FEA8:D661:6700:C41E:7E07:193F:DC72 (talk) 16:48, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If falsehoods and truth are a matter of interpretation, then we prefer the reliable sources' interpretation to yours because of Wikipedia's policies. Can we stop this? --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:05, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The evidence that the GBD is not-fringe is: a roundly debunked paper by John Ioannidis (a formerly respected researcher who devolved into COVID crank-titute) utilizing the Kardashian Index (a joke -- literally a joke). It doesn't get any funnier than this. -- M.boli (talk) 21:44, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sarcasm is hardly proof of concept. There is a difference between claiming bias from a biased POV, and reputations from a biased POV and evidence of what is in the scientific literature. Research in a peer reviewed journal is more important for Wikipedians that a post on social media containing no analysis whatsoever in a comical presentation. Stop ignoring the facts just to protect your POV, please. 2607:FEA8:D661:6700:541C:360A:B9B7:A4F4 (talk) 21:52, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
John Ioannidis's most famous paper already had him tending towards attention seeking. What the title said was badly wrong. The paper did show that better standards were needed and it probably would not have had as much influence that way if it had been written without the hype, so there's a good argument for the hype. But that was not scientific. NadVolum (talk) 00:27, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please explain why John Ioannidis's reputation has anything to do with the context here. In specific, what publication are you referring to, and what does his personality have to do with anything? 2607:FEA8:D661:6700:C41E:7E07:193F:DC72 (talk) 16:44, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see that John Ioannidis is the author of what I cited. I frankly don't care who he is. I do care what he said in that paper, "Both GBD and JSM include many stellar scientists, but JSM has far more powerful social media presence and this may have shaped the impression that it is the dominant narrative." I see nothing wrong with that particular opinion. With respect to some of his other opinions, I do not always agree, for example I do not agree with his sweeping statements about the use of statistics in medicine. Samuel Clemens said that "There are liars, dammed liars, and statisticians" and any set of rules can be abused. However, this most often, in my experience, boils down to which assumptions are made, for example, if we assume that "climate change is bad" and prove that we have assumed that "climate change is bad," then we have proved nothing. In those cases it really doesn't matter what statistics we have used. If, on the other hand, we assume that "climate change is good" and we show that is wrong then we have said something that is at least not self-referential. Pay attention to trying for a less self-referential article if you wish to write something convincing. As it stands now, there is too much hand waving to convince anyone of anything in this article. 2607:FEA8:D661:6700:C41E:7E07:193F:DC72 (talk) 17:56, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fortunately, we are not attempting to convince anyone of anything with this article, or any other article on Wikipedia. Rather, we are trying to summarize what reliable sources say about a topic. The paper you've linked is already discussed in the article, so you'll need more than that one link to demonstrate that the preponderance of reliable sources support your preferred opinion about the GBD. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:53, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Very funny. I could provide many links, but the preponderance of bias in this article would not change appreciably, and no, this is not applicable to the preponderance of articles on Wikipedia. It only applies to current politics, not to statistics, math, physics, chemistry and indeed most topics. Consider please that when the bias is so thick that logic has been forsaken, all I can do is to implore you to think more carefully so as not to write text that is self-contradictory. 2607:FEA8:D661:6700:5168:D308:E5FD:ACB4 (talk) 06:09, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Great description of the GBD

Jonathan Howard on Science-Based Medicine: While “not vulnerable” people lived in a world of pure COVID, “vulnerable” people would be locked down in a world of zero COVID. The only tasks were identifying “vulnerable” and “not vulnerable” people and creating an impenetrable wall between them. [6] --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:24, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is the crux of why the idea is BS; perhaps this needs to be brought out more? Bon courage (talk) 17:25, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There was so many other things wrong with what they said! They knew it was a major killer, you'd want to slow it down generally so the hospitals wouldn't get broken and there is always the hope of better treatments being found with a delay even if one has no hope for a vaccine. There was no good reason to try make it worse than the 1918 flu. NadVolum (talk) 18:42, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please see WP:NOTAFORUM. 31.52.163.164 (talk) 20:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is the video of Matt Hancock in the right place in the text?

In the section regarding critical commentaries about the GBD, there is a dropbox containing a link to a video of Matt Hancock, a British government minister during the COVID-19 lockdowns, discussing the GBD. The text discusses the British government response to the GBD, in particular referring to Matt Hancock, in the first few paragraphs of the section. Yet the video of Matt Hancock speaking is placed several paragraphs later, at which point the article has moved on to discuss the response in other countries. I think the link to the Matt Hancock video should be moved within the text so that it is shown immediately next to the paragraphs discussing the British government reactions to the GBD. Cowingzitron (talk) 01:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Focused protection – fringe?

The notion of focused protection was essentially Swedish national policy throughout the pandemic. Is this compatible with being a "fringe notion"? –—St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 13:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In a word: yes. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 13:45, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes indeed. There are a lot of myths about Sweden.[7] Bon courage (talk) 13:46, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Spare me talk about "myths". I'm Swedish, and I know what restrictions we had. They were quite compatible with the declaration.
Schools and universities should be open: Elementary schools were open, high schools and universities periodically and partially closed.
Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed: Activities for youth were prioritized and mostly open.
Young low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home: People were generally allowed to work on-site.
Restaurants and other businesses should open: They were, although suffering from various restrictions.
Arts, music, sport and other cultural activities should resume: Cinemas, churches, etc. were open, but with varying restrictions on the number of people who could gather at the same time.
—St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 14:12, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable sources call it fringe, and so we do too. Your personal experiences are interesting, but not useful for this article as original research. And regardless, a single country's government subscribing to a particular scientific position doesn't make it non-fringe; as an example, South Africa or the US and HIV/AIDS denialism. This has been discussed extensively in previous talk page discussions; feel free to review those discussions for the rationales, and if you have a significant quantity of reliable sources that describe focused protection as non-fringe, feel free to present them. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And was COVID encouraged to 'sweep through' the population resulting in herd immunity in a few weeks? We have excellent sources for this being bullshit. If you have counter-sources, produce them. Your personal takes are of no use for writing the article. Bon courage (talk) 14:18, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And where is any mention about "herd immunity in a few weeks"?
The official Swedish regulations and recommendations at different stages of the pandemic are not classified. What might or might not exist is an explicit published comparison to the Great Barrington Declaration (GBD). In any case, the similarities, together with the fact that Sweden is doing rather well in retrospective comparative evaluations of pandemic policy, could at least indicate some POV problems here.
The sources calling it "fringe" seem to be mainly from late 2020. My impression is that this article is not very up-to-date. –—St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 15:08, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, feel free to present reliable sources to the contrary. Without such sources, this article is as up-to-date as it needs to be. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:10, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here's an excellent update we could usefully draw on.[8] Bon courage (talk) 15:11, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above piece from David Gorski seems rather informal and combative. Here's a comparison between GBD and a paper by Donald Henderson, who led the eradication of smallpox. —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 15:35, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Err, WP:SBM is an excellent source for fringe science. You seemed to link to something by a contrarian business journalist? Bon courage (talk) 15:42, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Moreover, a contrarian business journalist writing for a questionable-at-best publication. I don't see any mention of the GBD in the portion of the article I have access to, though I suppose it's not the whole thing. Regardless, that's not going to fly. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:47, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The comparison with the policies argued in the paper by Henderson seems correct. I can hardly believe that Henderson was a fringe epidemiologist in 2006. —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 15:55, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since Henderson died in 2016, it seems a bit fringey to invoke him in relation to a virus which didn't exist until 3 years later. Bon courage (talk) 15:57, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
According to your own article, Henderson died in 2016, three years before COVID-19 even existed. Without an actually reliable source (not just one that "seems correct" according to you), he is entirely irrelevant to this article. See also WP:SYNTH. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:58, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This reasoning is backwards. Since Henderson wrote things with apparent relevance to subsequent events (as anyone can see), hopefully there are or will be reliable sources to this effect. I'm sorry that you regard the level-headed piece on Henderson as appearing in a "questionable-at-best publication". I guess time will tell. —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 16:22, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Time has told. GBD was always a fringe idea and has settled into becoming the province of cranks, contrarians and grifters. Bon courage (talk) 16:33, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nice talking to you, too. —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 16:44, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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