Talk:Haitian Creole

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This article is terrible. The IPA transcriptions aren't even in the IPA (I have no idea what system is being used), and it seems that no one has any idea what orthography is actually used for Haitian Creole. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.111.199.58 (talk) 20:19, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Ça sé pâs ké créyol pa gen on ôtograf ofisièl ancô (gen pliziê ôtograf yo), mé lot ôtograf ké yo t’ap itilizé poû réprézanté lang-lan pa’t tré inifôm ni tro clê donc mwen té révizé âtic-la avèc on ôtograf plu inifôm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.37.157 (talk) 16:20, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

order of subtopics

shouldn't the section about "plural of nouns" come after the one about "definite articles?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.187.207.205 (talk) 20:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

chiklèt

isnt it possible that this term originates from spanish chicle rather than the brand name (which got its name from spanish) especially if the t is silent like in french ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.241.193 (talk) 12:40, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

No I am haitian and most of use do realize we use it because of the brand name, the same way we would say "napkin". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.30.208.117 (talk) 02:45, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

I would concur that the word is derived from chicle, the traditional polymer that chewing gum is/was made from, rather than backformed from the derived brand name Chiclets. Barring any cultural evidence to the contrary, I back that theory.

71.241.78.140 (talk) 10:41, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

comment

Isaac Crumm I have been looking at wikipedia for quite some time, but I just joined recently. I think this particular page is pretty awesome. I added a bunch of those phrases and grammar yesterday. Thanks to whoever made it real neat and presentable; I am still trying to get a hang of the markup commands. I haven't been much in the Haitian-Creole circles for quite some time, so I may be kind of old on the spelling, and my computer currently can't use the accent marks.

Does anyone know of Bryant Freeman- has he published anything new recently (last 10 years)? Thanks.

Thanks to everyone; it looks like this page is really coming along.

The accents were added.Fågelina 22:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Dialect

The article says "There are two dialects: Fablas and Plateau." Could we get some more info on these? There is nothing written in the stubs linked. I have never heard these terms used by Haitians (doesn't mean they don't use them, just I don't hear them), but I frequently hear "kapwaz" used to describe the Cap Haitian mode of speech. Any comments?

The Creole spoken in the North, Cap-Haitien for example, is closer to the Creole spoken in Guadeloupe and Martinique. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.167.92.26 (talk) 22:43, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Jargon

Gen ge moun gou ki gi vle ge fe ge yon go ba ga gay gay nan gan ja ga gon gon? Maybe it will be interesting.

Random Question

Should Haiti be considered a Latin American country? This is a topic on the Latin American talk page. I don't want to bring the debate here, but was just curious what the users here thought.

Classifications are always arbitrary unless one specifies a purpose. So the real question is: what is the purpose of classifying countries into "Latin American" and "not Latin American"? Once you answer this question, the answer to your question will probably be obvious. Jorge Stolfi 19:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

PS. Remember to sign your entries with "~~~~" so that readers can tell one message from another. Jorge Stolfi 20:13, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

That seems like a very reasonable answer. Many different factions are arguing about it on the Latin America page. Isaac Crumm 08:03, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Fun fact: Half jokingly, I once announced to a group of Canadians that I had just spent some time in Quebec and had come to the conclusion that it is a Latin American country. That got a good laugh out of them. A notably uncomfortable laugh. Your mileage may vary. Sean M. Burke (talk) 05:57, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I always thought Haitian "creole" was just really a slang-infused,pidgin French--kind of like slang variants of English, such as jive. This is what the Haitians I see at the airport have told me many many times. And I speak French. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.206.143.173 (talk) 03:46, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Not sure your point is relevant here, but regardless, it's not true. It's a language with its own unique grammar, vocabulary, phonology and orthography. You might as well call French "slang-infused, pidgin Latin".... Prof Wrong (talk) 10:31, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

question

* zwazo - oiseau [(le)s oiseaux] - bird

Shouldn't that be le(s) oiseaux? 66.32.97.68 19:16, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Nope. The point of the parentheses was that the first z in zwazo comes from the s in les. Since the first part of les has been left out of the Creole word, they put it in parentheses. (In any case, if there were no final s and the French word were singular, it would not be *le oiseaux but l'oiseau – however, that's irrelevant to Creole, which takes zwazo from the French plural...) QuartierLatin1968 09:23, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, on second glance, scratch what I said, I don't know why they decided to put the part that is incorporated into the Creole in parentheses, for example in (la) lune. Seems weird. Can we maybe take out the parentheses in (la)? QuartierLatin1968 09:28, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I need help with some information for the infobox

Are there any organizations that regulate this language? what are the ISO codes for this language? Revolución 04:39, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In addition to the two codes listed already, HT states that "ht" is the ISO 639 alpha-2 code for this language. That would explain why the Haitian Creole Wikipedia is at ht.wikipedia.org.

Yes, it's "ht". I'm the person who registered it with ISO, in 2003: [[1]]. And in Internet use, two-letter codes (where available) take precedence over three-letter codes. Sean M. Burke (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:32, 2 March 2010 (UTC).

sample phrase pronunciations

I have some doubt that Creole uses the a sound as much as the IPA pronunciations make it seem, but I know nothing of Creole, and french does use it.

--Lee S. Svoboda 21:59, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Creole ʁ?

I edited the IPA so that it represents the French uvular /ʁ/ more accuately, but is the r for Haitian Creole an alveolar trill or is it also uvular?

• I don't believe it exists. I have never heard Haitian Creole spoken with an uvular trill and I've toured the country extensively. In fact, I believe it is one of those things that, to the average Haitian, sounds "Frenchy" and therefore snobbish/condescending. Braidedheadman 18:09, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

ʁ

It does existe in creole as well do the french sounds (oe, eu etc.) people forget there is more than one way to pronounce things in creole. Accents vary in Haiti so not everyone pronounces everything the same.

Who's your daddy?

Why is this included in the list of phrases? :: Salvo (talk) 08:26, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

No idea. Possibly it is meant as a question directed at a child and nothing else? Kinda makes you chuckle though, doenit...  ;] //Big Adamsky 15:20, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

More varied vocabulary sample needed

The words in the sample vocabulary seem to have been picked for the purpose of showing the derivation from French. But presumably the language has words borrowed from other sources, or made up (onomatopoeias etc.) It would be nice to include examples of those words too. Jorge Stolfi 10:55, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Good point, Some were added. It appears though that maybe not all of them are not of French origin. More in this dept would be appreciated.

Capitalization of Aysiyen

I believe that in French orthography the derivatives of proper nouns are not capitalized, is that correct? What is the custom in Haitian Creole? In particular, should we write Aysiyen or aysiyen? Jorge Stolfi 10:58, 21 February 2006 (UTC)</nowiki>

—Haitian Creole follows the French language - it is not capitalized "ayisyen"Fågelina 21:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Fek

hello, i was wondering about the origin of this word. It is also used in Mauritian Creole (e.g. Mo fek fer sa... I just did that) but we do not know how or where it comes from. MC does not have much West-African influence except for an archaic word no longer used{Wati-wale(Wolof)..par ci par la(French)..by here by there}. Anybody with any info? Domsta333 09:01, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

The French Wikipedia says it comes from the French phrase "ne faire que...". --201.218.24.21 01:53, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Fê'k indeed does come from ne faire que. In creole the ne as well as the r sound in faire and the e sound of que so as a result you get fai'q or fê'k. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.37.157 (talk) 13:31, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Spelling

Someone just (as in today) changed the spelling of many of the words in the article. I think it would be good if they put some comments here in the discussion page about it. How is the uniformity of the spelling these days? The changes made- are they some kind of standard, or are they simply the way that particular person thinks they ought to be written? Isaac Crumm 07:17, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

While I'm generally a fan of including diacritical marks where appropriate in names of places, I have never seen the diaeresis on the word Haitian when used in English. It seems like the change may have been well-intentioned but incorrect. :: Salvo (talk) 00:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

It does look that way. A lot of the links on the politics of Haiti page are now dead, because they're all pointing to articles named "Haïtian senate election" or whatever. Fact is, in French and Creole, aï and ayi represent two syllables, whereas in English, the ai is just a diphthong (one syllable), which means there's no more reason for a diaeresis than there would be in "Jamaica". (And for the record, I agree with Salvo in usually preferring to see the diacritics in non-English names!) QuartierLatin1968 22:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Since Kharker has not backed up her/his spelling changes with any sort of explanation, either here or on her/his talk page, I'm going to move the article back to the version without the diaeresis.  :: Salvo (talk) 06:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Pronouns

Someone recently added "vou" to the list of pronouns, should it be there? If someone is really speaking Creole, is "vou" used? Isaac Crumm 01:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

• I've heard it used sometimes in the Creole of the French Antilles (Guadeloupe and Martinique), but I don't remember ever hearing it in Haitian Creole. (IANAE)
• It's a "Frenchy" plural form of "you". You might hear it in/around the capital, particularly in Petionville, Delmas, and other areas where people consider themselves "more educated", especially among the Mulato and upper-class. Hence, its use is considered somewhat snobbish and condescending by most Haitians. "Nou" is more appropriate in casual conversation. Braidedheadman 17:56, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
• Vou is not snobbish, it is polite. People have the misconsception that haitians hate anything french. That is untrue and a misrepresentation of our people. Terms differ depending on region for example some people use zot intead of yo and some vou instead of ou. Plus ou is vou without the v
• I am a native Haitian creole speaker and have lived in Haiti on and off for 30 years (8 years in Port-au-Prince, 5 years and counting in Cap-Haitien) and when not in Haiti I've been in quotidian contact with Haitian Creole speakers and culture. I have never, EVER heard "vou" used in Haitian Creole, and this across social classes or regional origins. Whether it be in casual conversation, formal presentations, literature, theatre, music... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.115.177.77 (talk) 06:53, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Verbs section

The verbs section—particularly the examples of conjugation—seems ill-formatted. I’m personally not quite sure how it should be reformatted, so I tagged it with a clean-up notice. --Joshua 23:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

"Sounds and spellings" and "Lexicon" sections need work

"Sounds and spellings" needs more information, e.g. on ò and ch. "Lexicon" needs to have several of the IPA pronunciations filled in. 24.159.255.29 23:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

"Goodfatherhood"? What's the source of this?

Is it ozetazini or etazini?

24.159.255.29 23:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

• Ozetazini is correct, (phonetically) from the French, "Aux États-Unis (d'Amérique)". "Etazini" is also correct and is similar in use to "The United States" vs. "The States" in English. Braidedheadman 17:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

—"ozetazini" = in/to the United States, comes from French "aux États Unis" and "etazini" = United States, comes from French "États Unis." Nothing upset me more to see "Ozetazini" writen with a capitalized "O" as if it was the official country name.Fågelina 20:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• But that is in fact just what it is; the official name, in Creole, for the country. Capitalizing the "O" is perfectly good grammar as a result. When you say "Ozetazini" to a Haitian, they do not think, "To the United States." They interpret it for what it is in Creole, a noun labeling a country. For example, "M'ap ale Ozetazini," translated correctly means, "I am going to go to the United States." It does not mean "I am going to go to the to the United States." This is an example of where knowlege of French vocabulary and gramatical structure can interfere with correctly interpreting/understanding Haitian Creole. Braidedheadman 17:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I have to disagree with this. Creole speakers use "ozetazini" to mean exactly that: to the United States. The sentence "M ale ozetazini" means "I am going to the United States," and "Etazini se yon gran peyi" means "The United States is a great country." I have never heard a Creole speaker use "Ozetazini" to mean the name of the country, and I lived in Haiti for years. Cdeutsch 12:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Ozetazini and Ezetazini are the same word just pronounced differently. Creole is not an overly complicated language but you guys seem to make it seem so.

Copula

I put some comments on the copula talk page regarding Haitian Creole. I think they are worth looking at and discussing (there) to enhance that article, and the stature of Haitian Creole in that article Isaac Crumm 20:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Recent Changes

Well, this goes for everyone, but today, specifically for 71.124.156.23, please discuss before making wholesale changes, and changes ought to be kept uniform with the way the language is described in the article (definite article = la, not la)Isaac Crumm 01:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Corrections

I've noticed a couple of items that I believe need to be examined for correctness. I'll list them below with what corrections I think should be made:

• In the "To know" verb category, the treatment of "konnen" and "konn" as two separate words, in form and definition, is incorrect. "Konn" is the contracted form of "konnen" and as such they share identical meaning. "Konnen (konn)" comes from the French verb "Connaitre", which means "to know of (someone/something)", "to have experience in (some activity)", "to be familiar with (some concept)", etc. For example, "Mwen Konnen Jean-Paul / I know Jean-Paul," and "Mwen konn pale kreyòl / I know how to speak Creole." The second verb form of "to know" that the original author was probably referring to is "se", in Creole, from the French verb "savoir", which means "to know (something)", as in, "Mwen se nimewo telefon mwen pa kè / I know my telephone number by heart," and, "Li se kreyòl / She knows Creole." Note that the verb "se / to know" can be confused with the verb "se / to be" in sentances such as these, especially if instead of saying "Creole" in the last example, one says, "Li se Haitian / She knows Haitian." :P Braidedheadman 19:19, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
• I'll continue to add to this topic as time permits. If you choose to do so, please respond with bulleted indentations (:*) below each point that I raise in order to keep this tidy. Cheers.

I would have to disagree with what you are trying to say about "to know," I have never heard "se" to mean "savoir" except if one is speaking in a Frency way. We need to hear more opinions on the konnen vs. konn vs. se issue. Please, anybody? Isaac Crumm 22:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

That makes two of us: I've never heard a Creole speaker use "se" to mean "to know." --Cdeutsch 12:22, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

While reading the article, I found two points that looked to me like inconsistencies if I didn’t get it wrong: 1. Lexikon: why does the text contain „lalin“, but the table “lin” for ‘moon’? 2. “In some orthographic representations of Haitian Creole, <r> is used for both /ɣ/ and /w/, since /ɣ/ only occurs before front vowels and /w/ before back vowels. However, some modern orthographies use both <r> and <w> since the difference is phonemic.” Why should the difference be phonemic? If I understand this explanation correctly, they are in complementary distribution? 3. Finally, one interesting question the answer to which might be included into the article: what’s the etymology of the plural marker <yo>? G Purevdorj (talk) 23:12, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

"Sounds and Spellings"

Wouldn't it be more linguistically correct and more synergetic with other language articles to call this section "Phonology and Orthography"?

Yes, agreed. Sean M. Burke (talk) 05:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Haitian French versus Haitian Creole

I'm under the impression that there is a distinction between Haitian French and Haitian Creole, but I'm not an expert on this. Gringo300 00:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, there is no such thing as Haitian French, it's just regular French.Cakechild (talk) 03:02, 31 October 2008 (UTC)CakechildCakechild (talk) 03:02, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

There is no Haitian French but many Haitians amongst each other may mix Standard French and Creole. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.167.92.26 (talk) 22:47, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Yon

Someone put "yon" in front of a bunch of the nouns on the word list. I think it is very unnecessary. Anyone have any thoughts? Isaac Crumm 20:59, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Names

Someone changed some of the names from French spelling to a phonetic Kreyol like spelling. Personally, I have never seen a Haitian spell their name in this manner. I have always seen the French preserved. What is the current practice/opinion on this? Remember, Wikipedia is supposed to be descriptive not prescriptive.Isaac Crumm 20:59, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Mwa

Does mwa mean "me" (French moi)? If so, this would be a good word to add to the table, as it's an excellent example of the Africanized spelling found in Kreyol. Badagnani 01:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

"Mwa" is not a Haitian Creole word. "Mwen" (sometimes just "m")in Haitian Creole means the first person singular in all cases. (I/Je Me/Moi My/Mine/Mon/Ma and Me- this is not really a one for one correlation as all these cases are not necessarily used in Haitian Creole, but "mwen"fulfills all these same roles. Isaac Crumm 01:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

---from le Créole - "Moi" & "Mwen" are the same word "mwen" is just moi being said with a Haitian accent —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.12.177 (talk) 23:38, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I think "Mwa" is used in HC. It usually means Month, as in twa mwa, meaning three month. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AhadOnLine (talk • contribs) 13:51, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

I was reading an Edo dictionary (Edo is a language mainly spoken in today's Nigeria) and they use 'Mwen' to say 'Me'--you can check it out on the internet, I'm sure--as for 'Nou' for You plural; I'm sure it is related to Jamaicans 'Unu', which can be traced back to the Igbo, 'Unu' or 'Una', also mainly spoken in Nigeria.

Boukman___________ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.205.109 (talk) 21:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

---from le Créole - "Moi" & "Mwen" are the same word "mwen" is just moi being said with a Haitian accent —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.12.177 (talk) 23:42, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

It might be worth noting that [mwa] «moi» is merely Modern Standard French for "me". In Colloquial Quebec French even now, it's [mwe]. It's reasonable to suppose that it was still [mwe] in many 18th century dialects from all over France-- and we should expect that Kreyòl's original lexifier was French from a whole spectrum of dialects; I doubt anyone was insisting that slaves be spoken to only in Parisian. Sean M. Burke (talk) 06:12, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• You're correct about that, slaves were spoken to in informal french patois brought to the island by the french and that is how creole was born. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.34.66 (talk) 22:55, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Use of Expressions

The entry for Haitian Creole is very good. In my opinion it gives a clear and useful introduction to the language. However, being Haitian, I would like to point out that speaking Creole also means using and understanding a significant number of expressions or idioms. It is mentioned in the entry that there is a Creole dictionary. In fact, i've seen a few different, but equally useful, ones and they all contain a section dedicated to expressions. From my own experiences, i have noticed that without these expressions, of which the dictionaries only provide a subset, certain ideas cannot be fully communicated. This is aggravated by the fact that many of them are quite difficult to translate. I hope you consider this and continue the good work so that your article on Haitian Creole can become even more thorough. --65.94.172.242 06:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)Fabrice Durocher

Interintelligibility with French

Is it interintelligible with french? if so,it should be noted in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.78.237.13 (talk) 16:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, what do you all think? Is it? Isaac Crumm 23:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

We can't say that haitian creole is interintelligible with french. Even if written haitian creole can sometime be understood by a french speaking person, it's really different for oral haitian creole. I say that because i'm from Guadeloupe (French West Indies), and we have a lot of haitian coming. As they come from a very poor part of the population, they do not speak and do not understand french at all. But, and it can be mentioned, they understand Guadeloupean/Martiniquese creole and can have dialogue with Guadeloupean/Martiniquese creole speaking persons. This is just a personal experience. 193.251.75.121 20:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Thats because the synthax is West African--which is why English West Indian creole shares the same form, although the basiolects are different. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.205.109 (talk) 21:05, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Haitian creole's syntax is not African. It originates from French. Words like de and être are often dropped which makes the syntax look less proper but the syntax is of French origin.

No, it's not Interintelligible. A native French speaker may pick up on some words of Kreyòl, and an unschooled Haitian may get the gist of the French, but it's not clear transmission of information. It's like Dutch and English.

It's more like English and Jamaican Patois (the real jamaican patois not just english with a jamaican accent)

Presentation for College class

I am doing a presentation on Haiti. I have got to know "key phrases" such as --- Where can I get something to eat? Where can I find a hotel or place to sleep? Where is the restroom? Hi and bye. And any other thing a tourist may want to know while visiting Haiti. I am representing a Touist Company wanting to make the customers dreams come true visiting Haiti. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.255.207.169 (talk) 00:10, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

English expressions in Haitian Creole

Is it really necessary to say that "fé back" and "napkin" pushed out original creole words? The idea of an "original" creole language is problematic to begin with, and the fact that the "original" lexical items are not identified suggests to me that the author of this section is more interested in expressing hostility to English than in providing factual information. Words are spoken by people--they do not invade a group's vocabulary of their own accord, and language is not a zero sum game anyway. I'm deleting the phrase in question, and referring its author to the wikipedia page entitled "creole languages" Cthulhu1234 (talk) 03:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Words derived from African languages

Are there any HC words that can be traced back to African languages? If so, we should add a section on this. Badagnani (talk) 03:11, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Very, very few, if any. The African influence in HC is mostly present in the syntax.--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 21:49, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

The majority of the pre-European colonial African language borrowings (including Arabic) exist in Vodou. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.136.207.31 (talk) 10:24, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Haitian words of African origin

• Anasi (from Asante ananse) n. a spider
• Boco (from Fongbe bokono) n. a practitioner of black magic
• Marasa (from Kikongo mabasa) n. twins
• chouc (from fulani chuk) v. to poke
• zombi (from Kikongo nzumbi) n. a ghost,

• N a vini(Haitian Creole) | Mi a va (Ewe)- We will come —Preceding

unsigned comment added by 2.220.42.38 (talk) 07:01, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

N'à vini (We will come) has no relation to the Ewe language it is all of French origin and originates from Nous sommes à venir (We are to come)

Examples

It might be helpful to give French translations of the examples such as "Li se frè mwen" is "Il est mon frère". --81.129.142.136 (talk) 11:47, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

One of these days, I hope to maintenance this article so that it parallels the articles of other languages. Right now it's pretty much a big depository of facts about the language. I don't know what place French has in this article. Adding examples like "C'est mon frère" only makes it wordier than it already is. Haitian Creole has evolved away from French. Including French translations here could be as pointless as including Latin translations in the article about Spanish; indeed, it does show useful information about the evolution, but the languages have differentiated from each other long enough for it not to be necessary. Any opinion about the place French has in this Haitian Creole article, those who patrol this article?--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 20:31, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, yes. I think that the corresponding French phrases would be both interesting and useful. The purpose of them is not to make a political point, but rather merely to be descriptive and helpful. It's not derogatory to Creole to recognize that it is closely related to French and to point out the correspondences. Just as many people know English and find the English equivalents helpful, many people also know French and would find the French phrases helpful in understanding the Creole and learning how the language is structured. (I had a similar experience in reading about Portuguese while knowing Spanish... Of course Portuguese is not a dialect of Spanish, but for someone who already knows Spanish, it's very helpful to see and understand the systematic correspondences between Portuguese and Spanish.) Omc (talk) 16:31, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

French spellings?

Why did someone change the spellings to French? Kreyol Ayisyen is its own language, with correct and incorrect ways to spell words. The words on the KREYOL page should be written in KREYOL, not French! --72.219.160.133 (talk) 18:23, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I am Haitian and I must say that Creole is not its own language it is a dialect of French. Yes both Creole and French are languages but Creole is not separate from French it is a façon de parler just as certain regions of France have their own patois so do we.

The spellings were completely replaced by an anonymous user. While the replacement seems to have been done in good faith (and it was a LOT of work), I reverted the page to use the Kreyol spellings. (Since no one has complained about them before, I presume that the consensus is to keep them). I hope that the editor who did the change will discuss it here before reverting the page bck to his version. All the best, --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 19:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Bad news: Since you reverted, it looks like someone reverted the reversions, and so it's back to the French-etymology system which has been dead (and not much mourned) for decades. But I wouldn't even know how to revert the reverted reverted reversion, so... can you help? Sean M. Burke (talk) 05:21, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Jorge, this page has been a great resource in helping myself and many others learn Kreyol. 72.219.160.133 (talk) 13:04, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The spelling of the Haitian Creole Expressions is still incorrect. Why is someone insisting on writing them with French phonology? My understanding is that "What's up?" is written, "Sak pasé?", instead it is written in the article "Ça qu'passer?". One of the most charming things about Creole is its adherence to phonetic spellings, why write it as it would be in French? It is not "wannabe" French; the spelling, at least for those who know the international phonetic alphabet is superior, or at least much more representative of the actual pronunciation. Just as some languages (like Spanish) have made an effort to change their spelling to be phonetic, so has Creole. I'm not remotely knowledgeable enough to change the spellings of all the phrases, but I wish someone would. 68.33.81.68 (talk) 11:53, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Phonetic system not official

The reason for my adjusting the spelling for the page on Haitian creole is that the phonetic alphabet is not an official creole alphabet nor is it of Haitian origin. I was simply giving you more accurate spellings to the words as the reason that the phonetic system isn't official in Haiti is because it looks nothing like french. Yes Creole and Standard (Parisian) French are different in syntax but the lexicon is mostly the same (with some loan words and variations)just pronounced with a different accent hence alternative spellings.

• Standard French - Je suis un homme haïtien et quand j’écris en créole j’en écri comme ça.

Haitian creole

• More proper spelling - Moi ç’un nhomme haïtien et puis l’heure’m écrir en créole moi écrir’l con ça
• Approximated spelling - Mouin ç’on nomme haïtien et puis l’hé’m écri en créole mouin écri’l con ça.
• Phonetic spelling - Mwen s’on nom ayisyen epi le’m ekri an kreyol mwen ekri’l kon sa.

I'm pretty sure it is official actually. I can't for the life of me find any documentation from the Haitian government on the spelling, but you can find plenty of material from them in it. I've never seen the "French" spelling used online except in some dated PDF files. [2] Internoob (talk) 00:47, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Internoob. The French-ish spelling has got to go-- only quite old material uses it. *All* material now in, and about, the language uses one or another variations on a pronunciation-based system, with *zero* reference to the French source word. Furthermore, it looks like *every single one* of the items in the References, Bibliography, or External Links section uses a modern pronunciation writing system. The French-based system is long dead, and not mourned. All the Kreyol spellings in this article should be reverted to, ASAP. (Later, some ambitious person can write a bit about the minor differences in how the different systems represent given phonemes.) Sean M. Burke (talk) 05:07, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

(About my note about comparing the phonetic writing systems: the Preface in Ann Pale Kreyòl is a good basis for that Sean M. Burke (talk) 05:25, 2 March 2010 (UTC))

• Well as a haitian who has been speaking creole since birth and whose family was raised and educated in Haiti, the phonetic system is an illiterate and illegitimate system and horrible, not to mention ugly, representation of our native tongue it is a disgrace and is meant for lazy people who don't feel to bother with going to school in order to learn how to spell correctly.

Qui bagaille ça qu’ap passer là? Moune Américain penser que yo connai toute… Tchuuuuu!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.104.54 (talk) 18:14, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Any reasons to include it in the article? Here, we have:

• The phonetic orthography is used by the government
• The "French" orthography is seldom found except in old materials
• All of our external links use the phonetic system

Versus:

• The phonetic system is "an illiterate and illegitimate system and horrible, not to mention ugly, representation of [Haitian Creole] it is a disgrace and is meant for lazy people who don't feel to bother with going to school in order to learn how to spell correctly." (exactly the attitude that opposed Hangeul, the alphabet of the Korean language) — Internoob (Talk · Cont · Wikt) 00:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• Fermer dents’w cocorat! Si ous pas Haïtien pas occuper’w de affair nous. Moune Américain penser que l’heure yo dire on bagaille c’est ça lui yest. tchuuuu. Allez-vous-en! Et pis rêter faire promotion bagaille illettré ça. Gardes on tintin! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.36.177 (talk) 18:35, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

• • umm have u been to haiti because the government definitely does not write in creole. They may speak to the non french speaking masses in creole but that's it. People in Haiti barely even write creole anyway. Parler ça ous connai, pas ça ous penser. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.104.54 (talk) 20:20, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

    I'm going to ignore your flame baiting. I know exactly what you are saying when you speak in Creole.

    You overlooked my link earlier in the thread. [3] — Internoob (Talk · Cont · Wikt) 21:57, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

• Ous pas ca écri de langue nous si ous pas’t même al Haïti ou si ous pas connai culture ou histoir nous, Quitter vrai Haïtien enseigner gen yo parler créole. Nous connai'l pis mieux que ous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.40.16 (talk) 23:42, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

  Translation for those who do not speak Creole: You can't write about our language if you haven't even been to Haiti or if you don't know our culture or history, let real Haitians teach people to speak Creole. We know it better than you.

  Who I am or where I'm from (and I may or may not be American as you claim; it's irrelevant) does not change the fact that the phonetic orthographies are far more commonly used than the other ones, and as such should be used in the article. — Internoob (Talk · Cont · Wikt) 03:01, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

  Premièrement! Just because Haitians or people who want to learn creole living in the U.S. use the phonetic spelling does not make it correct. People just take what the think they know or what they think is correct and run with it, flipping things around and making people believe that its true or in this case correct that is what we call in Haiti Parler Français (Speaking French) and by doing so they are misrepresenting our native tongue. 2 example's of Parler Français that continue to hear: 1 - That the term créole means white (this from mostly people from lousiane), if that were true then why would all of the franco-caribbean people, most of whom are African, proudly call themselves this and why would our language be called creole when it is clearly a black language. 2 - Linguists have this bogus perception that a creole language is a mixed language and all this blahblahblah. Using all these big words and confusing people when there is no need to. French creole used to be called patois in the early stages but as the language became wide spread it became known as creole because it was spoken by people of the french caribbean who are known as creoles plain and simple Créole parler, créole comprane so Jamaican patois is not Jamaican creole, nor is Bajan called Barbadian creole. To my knowledge the only real creoles are the many dialects of french creole and cape verdean creole (a portuguse based dialect), cape verdeans are to called creoles or rather Crioulos in portuguese. Suspenne parler français et apprenne vraiment comment parler créole —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.111.231 (talk) 03:33, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

  You seem to be talking as though the French-based spelling is objectively correct and better than the phonetic one, and that is simply not true. In fact, I still maintain that the phonetic system is better for this article for the reasons discussed above, but mostly because it is the most common orthography of Haitian Creole so far as most of us can tell. I don't know why you bring up all that about the term creole and so forth. —Internoob (Talk · Cont · Wikt) 02:06, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• Dear Mister IP, I think you'll find "Just because Haitians...use the phonetic spelling..." is exactly a good reason to use the phonetic spelling. Also, a creole language is something different from a mixed language and French creoles are not mutually intellegible (ref:[4]) so saying the "many dialects of french creole" is inappropriate. Patois is a word used to mean just any language or dialect spoken in France other than Parisian French. It's not a useful category because it applies just as much to Basque as it does to Guiane creole.

  Anyway, Mister IP, have you been to Haiti much? Munci (talk) 18:10, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• If you noticed i sais haitians in America (haitian americans) people in haiti hardly ever write in creole and those that do tend to be students who spell more closly to french which is actual and CORRECT spelling. Haitian americans don't count they are not creole natif natal. And duh that's what a patois is it is a dialect other than parisian french. In haiti and the french west indies the patois is called creole because we are creole and basque also is a patois so my usage of the term creole "which i proudly am" is not wrong, creole is the name of our patois it is not a category of language or dialect as linguist love to believe. There is one language called creole in the french west indies and each franco island has regional differences just like the many regional differences in Spanish throughout south America this doesn't make each a different spanish. Many haitians have immigarted to the other french antilles sans the need to learn some supposed new creole language because creole c'est creole. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.108.240 (talk) 21:39, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

• Ah. I had interpreted "Just because Haitians or people who want to learn creole living in the U.S. use the phonetic spelling does not make it correct." as meaning "Just because Haitians, or people who want to learn creole living in the U.S., use the phonetic spelling does not make it correct." but apparently you meant "Just because Haitians, or people who want to learn creole, living in the U.S. use the phonetic spelling does not make it correct."

  Do you have any proof/sources/references for any of this?

  But Basque is not a dialect of French. It's a completely different language. And no, there is not just one language called creole. Haiti creole is different from the French creoles elsewhere in the world which are certainly not the same as e.g. Indo-Portuguese creoles. How about Haitians emigrating to, say, Seychelles? Doubt they understand their creole. The situation isn't comparable to Spanish because Creoles are separate from their origin language. Latin American Spanish is still Spanish, not any creole.

  So you think linguists don't know about linguistics, eh? You do realise words can, and usually do, have more than one meaning, right? Munci (talk) 16:34, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Actuèlman, sé aïsien m’yé é-pi m’couté mizic réunionnais é-pi’m ca compran yo, créyol françé yo pa tro diféran. M’ap bâ’w on comparézon, m’ap tradui parol réunionnais à créyol aïsien

Parol Réunionnais:

Ni on biten ou fê ki pran léspri an mwen

Ni on coulê ça’w ni ki ca so envouté mwen

Pâs mwen sav! ooooh!

Lê’w ca souri sugar lady boy

Sé on riviê ki ca chayé'w love!

Parol yo tradui an créyol aïsien:

Gen on biten ou fê ki pran léspri mwen

Gen on coulê ça’w gen ki ap so envouté mwen

Pâs ké mwen conné! ooooh!

Lê’w ap souri sugar lady boy

Sé on riviê ki ap chwayé’w love!

Hi. Can I just say that no one seems to be paying attention to the fact that there has been an official spelling system since 1979 for Kreyòl or Haitian Creole or whatever you want to call it? Also, there have been modifications to it, but most Haitian linguistic authorities recognize the IPN 1979 spelling with its modifications. This renders both phonetic and French spellings as WRONG by Haitians.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.107.210 (talk) 02:35, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, there is plenty of documentation that there IS an official spelling system for Kreyòl, approved by the Haitian government in 1979. In general it is very close to IPA, so it is quite phonetic. Haitian elite seem to prefer to think of Kreyòl as a second class form of French instead of its own independent language (which actually has a much more phonetic spelling system than French). Convenient if you want to look down on the majority of Haitians as illiterate and backward. For those who prefer to respect all Haitians and Kreyòl as its own language, there's no reason for wikipedia to adopt their prejudices as it own. If the Haitian elites take back control of Haitian government, they can change the laws about Kreyòl, but until then, just because they wish it was written like French, doesn't mean that it is by law. What they learned in school in Haiti was probably different, which is probably the source of their understandable frustration. (I would be frustrated if English became phonetic, even though it would be an improvement for future learners. It's upsetting to have part of your education invalidated.) Their teachers were probably educated before Kreyòl was respected as its own language. It took a while for teachers educated in Kreyòl trickle down to classrooms. Particularly if they have been outside of Haiti for some time, they may not be aware of this.

 You can even get spell check for Kreyòl now   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.81.68 (talk) 14:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC) 

No no, the French system is the original and must be preserved at all costs!!! God gave us French orthography, it's not like it itself originated as a phonetic script of a language that had evolved from another language like... I don't know... Latin, is it? <<joke>> Prof Wrong (talk) 20:22, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

/w/ vs. /ɣ/

If [w] only occurs before rounded vowels and [ɣ] only before unrounded ones, they are allophones, aren't they? So how comes "However, some modern orthographies use both <r> and <w> since the difference is phonemic."? —Preceding unsigned comment added by A. di M. (talk • contribs) 18:44, 18 October 2009

The impression I get from the preface to this textbook is that /w/ and /ɣ/ are separate phonemes, but they're merged (to /w/) before back rounded vowels. Some orthographies are etymological and write gro for /gwo/ 'big', while others are phonetic and write gwo. /w/ can occur before unrounded vowels, as in /mwa/ 'month', spelled mwa or moua (but never mra). +Angr 09:53, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

And you have a minimal pair: /wi/ "yes" and /ɣi/ "road" (among others).--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 01:09, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Number of speakers = 14 million??

In the sidebar, the number of speakers is listed as 14,000,000. But the footnote on the number (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=hat) does not support the number - it says "6,960,000 in Haiti (2001). Population total all countries: 7,701,640." And the opening sentence of the Wikipedia says 8 million in Haiti plus about 1 million elsewhere. I have not found any support elsewhere for a 14 million number. I'm reluctant to change it because I know it's referenced elsewhere (for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers) and I don't want to mess up the linkages. But I suggest that someone who knows how this works check and fix the number. I think the fix is simply to change 14 million to 8 million (or maybe 9 million). Omc (talk) 15:59, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Relocate "Usage Outside of Haiti" section

It seems odd that this is the very first section in this article. The main subject of the article should be the language itself, and how it's used by its principal speakers in Haiti. Usage outside of Haiti is interesting and relevant, but should be discussed after the main part of the article, not as the very first section. I'm relocating this section to the end. Omc (talk) 16:44, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Tupi

What does this mean in relation to pineapple? The link, as usual, goes to a fucking disambiguation page. Check your links, you fuckers. --213.130.252.119 (talk) 22:35, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

• Whoever edits or is in charge of this page knows nothing about Creole, the word "Ananas" pronounced (a'na'na) is a word from the Taino indians which means pineapple, I don't know what Tupi is ??? And the examples of Creole phrases are horrible: Its not mwen se yon dokte it's "Mouin c'est on docté" / "Mouin ç'on docté" or "Mwen sé on dokté" / "Mwen s'on dokté" according to the phonetic spelling and why aren't the pronoun abbreviations connected to the words for example: L ap vini should be "L'ap vini" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.98.219 (talk) 00:36, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

There is no single editor for any article and noone is in charge of a page. I do believe the specific language 'ananas' comes from is Guarani according to this German dictionry of plant etymology. 'yon' is used in scholarly literature such as On the Distribution of Determiners in Haitian Creole and HAITIAN CREOLE SE: A COPULA, A PRONOUN, BOTH OR NEITHER? ON THE DOUBLE LIFE OF A FUNCTIONAL HEAD. Any changes you could implement yourself as long as you provide sources. Munci (talk) 22:03, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

• Désolé mon cher mais vous avez tort, The word Ananas comes from the language of the Taino Indians. And again I don't know what guarani is ???
• I'm not saying the word 'yon' is incorrect but the usage of the word in the examples is off. 'Yon' is mostly used when saying 'on' after a word is more difficult as in 'Prend on l’aute gâçon / Pran on lot gâson' which tends to sound like 'pr’on l’aute gâçon / pr’on lot gâson' which is an exceptable conjunction but if the speaker wants to be clear or annunciate I gues you could say, he or she’d use 'yon' making the sentence easier to say: 'Prend yon l’aute gâçon / pran yon lot gâson' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.103.212 (talk) 21:28, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Guarani is a language spoken in Paraguay, as you can see on the article page. If you have a source saying its Taino origin, please provide it. Munci (talk) 23:49, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

• http://www.indio.net/taino/child/col_dic_1.html
• http://www.timespub.tc/2005/06/talking-taino-if-you-like-pina-coladas/
• http://www.taino-tribe.org/telist-a.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.46.72 (talk) 14:35, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Spelling

You don't spell a person's name phonetically e.g. Pyè (Pierre) or Mari (Marie) only words. Also the /ŋ/ sound is a creole phoneme and appears in words like peng, zong and malfwendeng it also appears in french in words like dingue —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.42.108 (talk) 17:30, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

That (about the names) sounds right to me, although I don't know for sure. I reverted those changes you made previously mostly not for that reason, but because the orthography you used (pôté, lâjan, etc.) is not the same one used in the rest of the article. (We discussed that above with an IP that wanted to use an ad-hoc orthography consisting mostly of plain French words.) What you said about the ŋ sounds not quite right; "peng" sounds like it should be "peny" (peɲ) ("comb") and I'm pretty sure that "dingue" is [dɛ̃g]. —Internoob (Talk · Cont · Wikt) 22:19, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

• Peng / pingue or pingre (proper spelling) means stingy and

  I see. In French (at least the way I speak), after nasal vowels, voiced stops (d, b, g) are still voiced stops but in Creole (and possibly Haitian French, I wouldn't know) the tendency seems to be to nasalize them (n, m, ng), e.g. bande → bann. Does this sound right to you? —Internoob (Talk · Cont · Wikt) 18:45, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

• You're correct. It's not really a language thing it's just an accent thing. Some haitians even while speaking standard french may pronounce things as if they were speaking creole, like Viens avec mwen (vyen avek mwen) for example this depends on the person where they're from and their type of accent though.

Section "Translation efforts after the 2010 Haiti earthquake" removed

This section was removed from the article because Wikipedia is not a place for advertising, original research, nor a download repository. I placed it here rather than deleting it with the hope that some brave Wikipedian might be able to grep any remaining useful information:

After the devastating earthquake that hit Haiti in 2010, international help badly needed translation tools for communicating in Haitian Creole. Public and private institutions that made them available include Carnegie Mellon University, Microsoft Research and Translators Without Borders, among others. See the "External links" section for some of the tools available.

☭ Zippanova 05:06, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

The language does sound spammy and unencyclopedic, but the information presented is quite relevant to the article, and it has been directly helpful to me in my own research. Not all references to evil corporations and the humanitarian projects thereof are advertising per WP:SPAM. References to research data do not violate WP:ORIGINAL. For contributors who may have added spam or inappropriate external links in good faith, {{subst:welcomespam}} may be used on their talk pages as a first warning. Thank your for your hard work doing the wiki dishes and taking out the wiki trash; it is much appreciated. Go Canucks! Heyzeuss (talk) 21:30, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

71.174.40.60 (talk) 22:55, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Keep the spelling

A number of IPs keep wanting to change the spelling system. Everyone seems to want to use their own orthography, and that's not going to work. We need to keep the article to the orthography that is used most often today, which is used by the Haitian government web sites (when they don't use French) and the Creole Wikipedia, (not to mention most of the rest of the Internet) which I'm pretty certain is also the official orthography. If someone is so inclined, they could write a section on orthography debates in the idea of WP:NPOV. —Internoob (Talk · Cont · Wikt) 04:12, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

- first of all the orthography keeps being changed because its not precise thank you very much: the spelling, the use of words and the information provided about the English loan words so I suggest whoever keeps reverting the page do some actual research, even though sites use this orthography any Haitian like me can see flaws its representation of the language, further more the only correct way to spell in creole is to spell words the french way...so please, conné ça ou pâlé! oh and if you wanted the correct spelling of that it's: connais ça 'ous parler.

A di vré, m'pa conné poû ki ça yo pa kité on aïsien pâlé de lang nou. Li santi ke tout tan yon aïsien ajouté yo di'k li gen tor.

I don't know where you get the idea that it's not precise, or that the only correct way to spell Creole is with French orthography. I'm not sure what flaws you see either. Your comment is really vague. But if you look at the external links section, not a single one of them uses anything other than this orthography, including the Haitian Creole Wikipedia which is indeed written by real Haitians. —Internoob (Talk · Cont · Wikt) 18:04, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Can you all please pay attention to the Official spelling system that's been in place for a few decades? It has been slightly modified, but it still stands as the 1979 IPN set up. See the following links: http://countrystudies.us/haiti/2.htm and http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED356617.pdf Thank you, now stop fighting about it.

Bagày ça bézouen ranjé ac fixé

Bon! Nou pr’al wé kèc erê yo gen nan âtic ça

Prémiêman – Ki an lanfé di konnfleks poû séréal?! Séréal vlé di (cereal) an créyol, é pa fout konnfleks!

2 – M’pa’t jamé tandé mo séfing-nan donc m’pa ca comanté soû li mé li jist santi bizâ, tro bizâ poû vré.

3 – é pa senèt sé chênèt

4 – é pa totò sé tonton ki vlé di (uncle)

5 – Nou rélé (tooth paste), pât ou pât-dantal. Lê on moun mandé poû colgat y’ap pâlé de pât-dantal ki rélé colgat-la.

6 – Nou di rékilé plis ké 'fê bac', mouen-mêm mouen pa fout di fê bac.

7 – m’pa’t jamé tandé on moun di (napkin) an créyol sèlman tôchon.

8 – poû ki ça yo pa mêm mèt axan soû mo « mété »-a. Si ou écri mété w’ap di (me’te) si ou écri mete w’ap di (mə’tə) é-pi ça pa on mo créyol

9 – Sé sèlman on égaré ki pr’al écri non moun con ça; Mari, Pyè, Franswaz ki tenten ça yé?

10 – Li al travày lé maten sé mié ké (Li ale travay le maten): M’al lécol, M’al travày, M’al la-cày mouen / M’alé la-cày mouen

My best translation for those who do not speak Creole:

These things need to be corrected

Okay! Let's see a few errors there are in this article.

1. First! Who the hell says konnfleks for séréal? Séréal means cereal in Creole, and not konnfleks.
2. I've never heard the word seyfing before, so I can't comment on it, but it sounds bizarre—too bizarre to be true.
3. It's not senèt, it's chênèt.
4. It's not totò, it's tonton meaning "uncle".
5. We call toothpaste pât or pât-dantal. When someone asks for colgat, they are asking for Colgate toothpaste.
6. We say rékilé, not fê bac. I don't even say fê bac.
7. I've never heard anyone say napkin in Creole, it's always tôchon.
8. Why don't they even put accents on the word mété? If you write mété, you say /meˈte/, but if you write mete, it's /məˈtə/, which is not a Creole word.
9. Only idiots write people's names like this: Mari, Pyè, Franswaz. That's nonsense.
10. Li al travày lé maten is better than Li ale travay le maten: M’al lécol, M’al travày, M’al la-cày mouen / M’alé la-cày mouen. —Internoob (Talk · Cont · Wikt) 18:27, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

One thing: I think many people say /ø/ or /e/ for /ə/. /ə/ is not in the chart of phonemes either. —Internoob (Talk · Cont · Wikt) 18:27, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

É pa vré zami’m, pâs ke nan aïti nou gen plis ke youn axan é plis ke youn façon poû prononsé on mo

On moun ca di mo chévé-a con ça-a an créyol, ça é prononsé /ʃe’ve/ Mé on lot moun ca prononsé’l con ça; cheve, ça é prononsé /ʃə’və/ é-pi on lot, lot moun ca prononsé’l con ça chevé, ça é prononsé /ʃə’ve/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.107.210 (talk) 02:02, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Wi. Se vre. Òtograf sa a reprezante moun ki di /e/ pou /ə/ ak /ø/. —Internoob (Talk · Cont · Wikt) 18:31, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Wi, mé poû ki ça’l pa réprézanté moun ki di /ə/ ou /ø/ côté lot moun di /e/ ou lê moun di /y/ côté lot yo di /i/?

aïti

Pou ki ça ou écri non péï-a “ayiti”? Non péï-a pa prononsé ayiti (a’ji’ti) sé aïti (a’i’ti) fo ou couté pou wé ça. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.167.92.26 (talk) 20:21, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

"Ayiti" se òtograf ofisyèl non peyi a. Nou mèt wè sa nan Imn nasyonal gouvènman ayisyen mete sou wèb ak nan anpil lòt kote nan sit ofisyèl gouvènman ayisyen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.198.165.87 (talk) 20:57, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Origin of the Haitian creole language subsection required

I have made a lot of modifications to this article in the last 2 weeks because it was just terrible. I believe that what is needed now is a subsection on the origins of this language. This article barely mentions anything about it. I have read that there are 2 different theories (creole already partially developed in West Africa; local development of creole). I think this article won't ever be complete without elaborating on the origins of this language.-Boukman 74.198.165.107 (talk) 22:57, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Creole was developed on the island which is why it is called creole because it is native. It comes from the french patois spoken by french colonists as well as white and black creoles. Africa doesn't really have as much influence on creole as many would like to think besides a few lexical items. Grammatically creole is derived from this old patois or way of speaking french. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.167.92.26 (talk) 19:43, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Translation efforts after the 2010 Haiti earthquake

Ok i do not know where the f* you get your information from when you say that most haitian do not speak any other language then Kreyol not even French. Most haitian, even the one who only had a chance to have little education do speak French and understand it. I think saying that communication was made difficult due to people inability to speak Kreyol and haitians inability to speak another language including french is very bias... i must add...it looks as if this section was written by someone who never been to Haiti and relies on what news and whatever people may say. Please correct this section

• Faut’w pas couter ça. Moune yo qui mette bagaille sou cite ça pas même conne al haïti donc comment yo ca écri de culture-nous??? En Haïti Il y’a deux langues, le français et le créole. Le créole et un patois ou une façon de parler le français qui a existé depuis les temps de colonisme et il viens des français et étais transformer par les créoles c’est pour quoi on l’appelle créole au lieu de patois, le nom ancient. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.167.92.26 (talk) 18:10, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Correction

"Although the lexicon is mostly French, the sentence structure is like that of the West African Fongbe language. This is because many of the enslaved peoples that were brought to Haiti came from the former kingdom of Dahomey (present day Benin). "I took the preceding part out of the article because it's false altough it does seem possible that the sentence structure in Haitian creole originates from Africa it actually originates from French and is a result of the dropping of the words de (in regards to nouns) and à (in regards to pronouns). For example C'est à lui is the standard way to say 'This/that belongs to him/her'. In the colonial patois of Haiti one could say Chemise à lui meaning 'His/her shirt' this becomes shortened to chemise-lui although the placing of yo at the end in pluralization probably did origante in Africa. The same thing happens with de. In standard French one would say Soeur de Paul to say 'Paul's sister'. In Creole where the de is often dropped (note that the à is still used in Haiti, mainly in the north) Soeur de Paul becomes Soeur-Paul. To say La soeur de Paul in Creole would be Soeur-Paul là the là in this sentence and its variations in Creole (à, an, nan) do not originate from the French definate article la (the) as it is popularly believed. The là actually originates from ce(tte)...là so Creole's Soeur-Paul là originates from the old Patois saying Cette soeur de Paul là which is a counter part to American southern talk. For example: 'That there Paul's sister is nice' / Cette Soeur de Paul là est gentille (note that the verb être too is often dropped in Creole) / Soeur-Paul là gentille.

Are there any references for this? I notice in Ewe language the articles LA and A come after the noun, and suitability of the article depends on the ending of the noun phrase. It's hard to explain why the Haitian definite article should vary if it's based completely on French. 174.20.179.158 (talk) 03:57, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

One could probably find references for this but for a Francophone it is pretty obvious. The reason the article changes in Haitian creole is because the changes made it easier to pronounce also creole uses Là, à, an, & nan as opposed to just la & a. As stated before it is possible but think about it African slaves learned the patois from Creole slaves who learned it from French Colonists who communicated with their slaves in their French patois which got broken down. Haitian Creole is more of a broken down language rather than a mixed one. Yes there are lexical Items from other languages but for the most part it's french even the tense markers are of French origin. Note that Creole slaves existed on the island long before the huge waves of African slaves arrived and were for the most part accustomed only to French culture it was the creole slaves who the Africans looked up to and how they came to learn the patois which the non-French speaking Africans butchered.

"examples of the breaking down from French to Creole"

• French - "Je suis capable"
• Creole - "Mouin capabe" > "Mouin ca..."

• French - "J'ai besoin d'aller"
• Creole - "Mouin besouin aller"

• French - "Je suis là"
• Creole - "Mouin là" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.10.198.128 (talk) 21:38, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

• French Patois - "Je suis après parler"
• Creole - "Mouin apès pàler" > "M'ap pàler"

• French Patois - "Je suis à parler"
• Creole - "M'à pàler"

• French Patois - "Je suis après aller parler"
• Creole - "Mouin pr'al pàler"

• French Patois - "J'ai esté parler"
• Creole - "Mouin té pàler" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.10.198.128 (talk) 21:50, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Notice in the examples above the word de and the verbs être, avoir are dropped. Now the dropping of the words may have originated in some way from African language or just the failure of the Africans to fully master the patois but African presence is mostly present in Creole lexical items rather than grammar and words related to grammar. The only gramatical phenom is the use of the word yo (which originates from a blend of Fon ye and Ewe wo)in pluralization. It is the same with Jamaican Patois; the gramar however broken it may be is of English origin and the only African article of grammar is the usage of the word dem (them) in pluralization just like in Creole.

• French - Les livres
• Creole - Liv yo

• English - The books
• Jamaican Patois - De book dem

Ou konne ekri? se AITI; PA AYITI!

Mwen vle ke moun-sa k'ap edite atik la konne o mwen ekri non pei a. Se pa ayiti; se pa koman nou prononse'l se aiti; pa gen son igrèk la dan ou konne. E plis, kreyòl pa se lang kreyòl; kreyòl se non li se koman nou rele'l pa s'ke se nou-mèm (moun kreyòl) ki pale'l. Kreyòl se on patwa, on fason de pale ou konne. Me ki moun mwen ye? Avi-mwen pa vle di an yen mwen sèlman on moun kreyòl ki konne de kilti-li. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.167.92.26 (talk) 18:51, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Grammar gloss format

Under the grammar section, I think that we should switch to a glossing system that shows word-by-word glossing as well as natural translations. I went ahead and did this for the first example. True (talk) 20:01, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Older orthography -- new section...?

Obviously, the article needs to follow the current officially recognised orthography.

However, I think it would be nice to see a section on the difference from the previous ways of writing. Has anyone got a copy of an old version of something like the Our Father (old philologists' favourite) that can be used to show the differences between French, older writing styles and the current standard? Prof Wrong (talk) 16:12, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I read here that there are 3 major spelling systems for Haitian Creole: McConnell/Laubach, Pressoir/Faublas and the current IPN system. I think your section on older orthography should refer to the 2 ancient systems which have had some use, instead of trying to explain everyone's and anyone's "non-standard" system. Boukman (talk) 14:06, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree completely. Prof Wrong (talk) 09:11, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Apostrophes, native name & French spelling

As required by the Joseph C. Bernard (Secrétaire d'État de l'éducation nationale) law of 18 September 1979, the Institut Pédagogique National established an official orthography for Kreyòl, and slight modifications were made over the next two decades. For example, the hyphen (-) is no longer used, nor is the apostrophe. The only accent accepted is the grave accent (à, è, or ò).

You guys do realize that this document was printed during the rule of Duvalier one of the most unpopular Haitian presidents ever and that most people don't follow this nonsense rule about not using an apostrophe the reason why is simple because it's clear that when we speak creole and we abbreviate a phrase like "mwen ale" to "m'ale" it is clear in speech that the two words are connected and become a compound rather than two separate words "m ale". In Parisian French you would never write "J aime" nor would you write "That s" in English. Abbreviations are never used alone.

Native Name --- The native name of Haitian Creole isn't Kreyol Aïsyen it's simply Kreyol / Créole. No Haitian says Kreyol Aïsyen unless specifying our patois from that of Guadeloupe, Martinique, French Guyana etc.

Francophone Spelling --- I feel that there is a bit of a bias in this article. Why in discussing FRENCH Creole isn't the francophone or more French derived spelling represented alongside the phonetic. It is a known FACT that the French spelling still exists and is still used in Haiti (as well as in the rest of the French Caribbean) contrary to previous comments made on this discussion page probably from people who have never even been to Haiti. Look at it this way the phonetic system began being used to teach illiterate people to write creole but the fact is not many people write Creole especially since illiterate people barely write at all whereas the upper and middle class who are more educated do know how to write and they learned it the French way so if anyone is to write in Creole it's them and they most certainly don't use the phonetic system for they take pride in their francophone culture. My family is from Haiti and in school they weren't even allowed to speak Creole and the way I learned to write from them was the French way, they don't even know how to write the phonetic way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Creoleavie (talk • contribs) 00:45, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

It still stands that the article uses the official orthography, and this follows wikipedia's policies.

As I said before, I would personally like to see a separate section covering the differences between the current standard and older, French-derived orthographies.

Please do feel free to add that as another section.

Prof Wrong (talk) 14:08, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Why were the citations that were added to the l'orthographe francisée section earased? Just wondering? User:Creoleavie

I added comments to my edits to explain.

The first book you cited was published over 30 years ago, several years before the adoption of the new standard. You were using this to support a statement on current usage.

The only relevant point raised in the second citation was the objection to "Germanic" K and W. I added this in and moved the reference.

Prof Wrong (talk) 07:40, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

You guys do realize that this document was printed during the rule of Duvalier one of the most unpopular Haitian presidents ever and that most people don't follow this nonsense rule about not using an apostrophe the reason why is simple because it's clear that when we speak creole and we abbreviate a phrase like "mwen ale" to "m'ale" it is clear in speech that the two words are connected and become a compound rather than two separate words "m ale". In Parisian French you would never write "J aime" nor would you write "That s" in English. Abbreviations are never used alone.

I suspect the reason for the loss of the apostrophe is the notion that there's nothing missing. It's an old convention in writing "dialects" to add in an apostrophe where the dialectal form doesn't include a phoneme that the "standard" does. So what are you sayin'? because the g is "missing" from saying. But if the short form is standard, what is missing? You would never say mwen ale, would you? Only m ale -- hence there's nothing missing. While you're correct in saying we wouldn't write that s in English, there is still something missing, because the word is still exists and the option to say that is still exists. But the historical abbreviation of the indefinite article to a before a consonant is no longer considered an abbreviation, because even though an still exists, it only exists before a noun (eg an apple) and is not permitted before a consonant (eg *an car), so we don't write it a' (eg *a' car). Prof Wrong (talk) 21:50, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Actually we do say Mouin aller as well as M'aller. M'aller is an abbreviation for Mouin aller. There are no abbreviations that are not also said in long form in créole.

• Mouin aller travail / M'aller travail / M'all travail
• Côté ous pour aller / Côté ous pr'aller / Côté'ou pr'aller
• Mouin apès faire / M'apès faire / M'ap faire
• Faut que ous aller / Faut qu'ous aller / Faut qu'ou'aller

Also the part of the grammar section which claims that creole grammar originates from the African Fon language needs to be taken out or rather revised because in Martinique, Guadeloupe and Guyane Français they use the same grammar and I'm sure that these territories had other predominant Arican Tribes and even La Reunion which is all the way over in the Indian Ocean uses this same grammar in its French creole and they for sure had different African tribes which means that Creole grammar is of old French origin as I'm sure has been stated before on this page which is also evident if you're a native Creole/French speaker. In the case of the French West Indies it is more likely that the French grammar chosen by creoles was influenced based on the whatever proximity it had to African languages or just that it was the way of talking in that time.

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved and hatnote added -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:04, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

---

Haitian Creole language → Haitian Creole – The 'language' at the end is redundant, and the name of the language is just 'Haitian Creole'. Other creoles are at 'X Creole' rather than 'X Creole language'.relisted --Mike Cline (talk) 17:26, 10 May 2012 (UTC) --207.160.233.240 (talk) 20:18, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Oppose and instead change Haitian Creole into a disambiguation page for Haitian Creole language, Haitian Creole people & Haitian Creole Lexicon. Nikthestoned 09:14, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I second the statement made by Nikthestoned. --Boukman (talk) 14:01, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

• Support. The language is the primary topic and I would argue entirely unambiguous ("Haitian Creole" already redirects here). Haitian Creole Lexicon and Haitian Creole Wikipedia derive from the language. Haitian people are rarely referred to as "Haitian Creole people" and I have requested a move of that page at Talk:Haitian Creole people. —  AjaxSmack  02:10, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

• Support. Agree with WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and also agree that the the Haitian Creole people page should be renamed (the term Creole denotes an ethnically mixed culture). There is no need for a disambiguation page, although a header disambig to "Haitian people" would make sense. - Prof Wrong (talk) 09:26, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

• Weak oppose See Creole peoples. If the proposal at Haitian Creole people gets sorted out (maybe someone could address my question there...), this is subject to change. --BDD (talk) 00:19, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Haitian Creole people was just moved to Haitian people after a move request. —  AjaxSmack  02:56, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://esciencenews.com/articles/2010/01/27/carnegie.mellon.releases.data.haitian.creole.hasten.development.translation.tools. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Dana boomer (talk) 18:38, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Slang...?

It looks like a lot of the stuff listed as "slang" is just Creole vocabulary. I don't know why it has been categorised as "slang".... Prof Wrong (talk) 11:24, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Because you guys obviously cannot identify creole slang

ex: Ça qu’passer (Sa’k pasé) is Creole but it's slang. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Creoleavie (talk • contribs) 17:23, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

"Standard French"

I've deleted or reworded a couple of references on how Haitian Creole differs from "Standard French", as this seems to imply that Creole is French (which is false).

There have also been numerous references to "patois" and "informal French" when discussing the language of the colonists. That's a pretty offensive way of saying "most of the colonists weren't from Paris", because in reality that's all you're saying. There was nothing more intellectual or otherwise superior that turned the Parisian dialect into the modern standard, it was just a matter of geography and politics. And even at that time, the language in Paris would have been different from what it is today. The constant suggestion that any differences from modern standard French are in any way "lesser" is getting pretty tiring.

How would French speakers like it if I kept criticising French for being different from Romanesque, as though it was the one true successor of Latin? Prof Wrong (talk) 11:43, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Actually Creole IS a form of French. It is a dialect of French and not a completely separate language. The term patois is not an offensive term Creole is a patois. There are patois spoken in different parts of France as well as different French territories. It seems that people always try to De-francophonize our culture and its quite offensive actually. You're telling me that Creole is not French mais presque chaque mot qui sorti bouche mouin c'est francais just grammatically off. What is offensive about saying that the colonist weren't from Paris when most of them weren't? M'pas compren'? and when one refers to standard French they are referring to Parisian French as opposed to a local form of French such as Creole. No one is saying that standard French is superior it is just the standard.

Creole is not a form of French any more than English is. English has absorbed many rules of French and many grammatical features of French over centuries of mutual invasion between English and Norman and wider French kingdoms.

As you say, practically every word in Creole comes from French, but the grammar is very distinct. There is some debate among linguists as to whether creole grammars draw heavily on the native tongues of their various speakers (eg the Fon theory in this article) or if the grammar of Creole represents some kind of natural "default" grammar (they point to certain similar features appearing in various creoles). But on this, there is near-universal agreement: creole grammars do not come from the same place as the words.

As to the offensiveness or otherwise of "patois", you may as well argue that "peasant" isn't offensive, coming as it does from the French for a rural dweller. Both are offensive in that they have been used to imply inferiority. French is a "language", but Ch'ti is a "patois", as is Occitan, Provençal, Normand, Gallo etc. Each of the aforementioned languages have independent histories that predate the formation of the modern standard, and yet they are essentially defined as "variations".

Would you deny that Portuguese and Spanish are different languages? Yet they are an awful lot closer in terms of vocabulary, grammar and phonology (ie in every way) than French and Occitan, or indeed French and Creole.

Prof Wrong (talk) 11:19, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

You cannot compare the differences bewteen English and French (two separate languages) and Creole and French (one of which is a different form of the other). The term patois has nothing to do with social class or anything it is simply a way of speaking. As for spanish and portuguese although very similar they are both different forms of Latin and not of eachother while Creole whether it be Haitian, Martiniquan, Guadeloupe etc. are our local forms of French they are not the same as French and nor are they completely separate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Creoleavie (talk • contribs) 13:53, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Then ignore English and consider Portuguese and Spanish. They are different languages, yet they are much more similar to each other than French and Creole are.

The theory of a "koiné" between rural French lects is so unlikely as to be laughable, because every regional dialect/language has a grammar that is consistent with that of the other Western Romance languages, a family that is spoken from Patagonia to the Lido di Jesolo. It is hugely unlikely that a "koiné" should arise between closely related speech-forms that has a grammar so different from the source languages.

The vast majority of linguists would say as much, and while Wikipedia allows for the inclusion of these extreme theories in articles, they are a sidenote. The article must follow academic consensus, and the academic consensus is that Creoles are independent languages, not "dialects" of some mother "language"

Prof Wrong (talk) 14:16, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Just because you put words in a different order doesn't mean its still not French just as when a Jamaican speaks Patois it doesn't mean they're not speaking English. Secondly although Creole is influenced and has always been influenced by Parisian (Standard French) since Parisian has always been present since colonial times, it is not a derivative of Parisian French but rather Creole comes from 18th century Norman French which is a French patois hence Creole also being a French patois which is what it was referred to as before being given the name Creole (Speech of the Creoles). The dropping of certain connecting terms and some displacement of words came with the breaking down of the old patois by Newly imported Africans to the island as they learned the old patois but for the most part Creole's grammar differentiates from that of Parisian French because of how the old patois was spoken contrary to the theory that Creole is French vocab over a completely African grammar. The ultimate point being that all French is French still French hence the different names for different dialects/patois Parisian (Francais parisien/Parisian French), Noramand (Francais normand/Norman French), Creole (Francais creole/Creole French) etc. If you notice even countries such as Saint Lucia and Dominica which no longer speak standard French as they switched hands with the British but still speak Creole French are members of the Francophonie because they speak a form of French. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Creoleavie (talk • contribs) 06:12, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but we're going round in circles, and you're completely ignoring things I've said, refusing to engage in any debate. You're claiming Creole is a derivative of Norman French. Well perhaps, but it is still a Creole, and not Norman French. This "patois" nonsense is just exploitation of centuries-old denigration of the regional tongues of France as being somehow "inferior" to standard Parisian French. There is a persistent believe that the regional "dialects" are somehow less advanced and less intellectual than the standard, and it's this belief that lets charlatans claim that there is some sort of simplified "patois" spoken in Normandy.

Unfortunately, the choice of "Normand" as a source for this patois is seriously ill-advised. Norman French is one of the better documented regional languages of France, thanks to the use of Medieval Norman in English court documents and the protectionof the insular dialects (Jerriais, Guerniais and Sarkais) from the influence of Parisian French through the fact that they were never ruled by France for more than a few brief years in the 14th and 15th centuries.

Norman French is no "patois" -- it is a fully developed language, derived (as all Romance languages) from the Vulgar Latins of the legionnaires and merchants. It has always borne very clear similarities to Standard (Parisian) French, while being recognisably its own language. The gap between Norman and Parisian is vanishingly small compared to the gap between either of them and Haitian Creole.

There are major holes in this "Metropolitan patois origin" theory, and sitting there telling me it's true isn't worth a damn -- you need evidence. Two or three guys believe it and have published papers -- great, those guys are mentioned in the article. But the academic concensus is that creoles are independent languages and that is therefore the primary angle to be presented in the article.

How much you personally believe otherwise is irrelevant -- this article has to draw on expert consensus as source. Prof Wrong (talk) 18:32, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

The term patois is not nonsense it is the name given to other French dialects nor does the term necessarily refer to patois as being inferior. As French evolved from Latin one French didnt just emerge but rather different variants. France chose Parisian French to be the governmental or "standard" French (as Paris is the Capital). It is a dialect different from government French their is nothing negative about speaking patois. Linguists are the one's who have things twisted Creole is not a "Creole" it is a patois whose name is Creole named after the people who spoke it, Creoles. Linguists took the name of our ethnicity and language not fully understanding it and apply it to various dialects who have nothing to do with our culture, now that is denigration. Me calling Creole a patois is honouring our francophone culture rather than trying to place our language in a box of languages/dialects who have nothing to do with us just because some linguists are always trying to put people in a category. Regardless if Norman French or any other type of French is considered an official language as Creole is still doesnt change the fact that it is a variant or type of French which is what a patois is whether a person has a negative view of a certain facon de parler is their problem. Even today there are people who feel that Creole is uneducated speak. Patois is what the dialect of French that was spoken in colonial times was called before it inherited the name Creole because it was spoken by Creoles. That is all I'm trying to say. It was called patois because that is what it is and it later inherited a name, a name it inherited from its people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.136.94.27 (talk) 03:10, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but if you read any fiction contemporary to the colonial era (eg Zola's Rougon-Macquart cycle), you will find that the term "patois" was highly derisory. It has always implied simple, uneducated speech. Prof Wrong (talk) 11:44, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

That negativity may be implied especially by people who look down on that type of speech but yes in general patois is simple speech if one choses to insinuate that one is uneducated because they speak patois that has more to do with that person’s misunderstanding than the language itself. Yes Haitian, Martiniquais, Guadeloupian and French Guyanese Creole are also simple speak that doesn’t change because you put an official label on it nor does it not make them languages however it does not make them completely separate languages from the super straight. Simple speak or patois does not mean one is uneducated and nor am I trying to say so. I am just labeling things as they are. Creole is not a “Creole” as linguists ignorantly call it. Creole is a patois called Creole. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.139.24.70 (talk) 17:00, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

The term has always been derogatory -- check out the etymology of the word. Prof Wrong (talk) 21:54, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

• A standardised dialect that is official in a sovereign country = a separate language.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:13, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I think its you who is causing us to go in circles. I'm trying to explain but two simple things 1. That the ignorant classification of Haitian Creole as a "Creole language" by linguists not only sounds redundant but she be otherwise worded, Creole is a "patois" or French dialect with official language status 2. That Creole is a dialect of French which makes it not a COMPLETELY separate language note I said not COMPLETELY separate. Now you want me to look up the definition of the term patois. I don't need to look up what a patois is je sais bien qu'est-ce que c'est un patois.

patois (plural patois)

1.A regional dialect of a language (especially French); usually considered substandard.

2.Any of various French or Occitan dialects spoken in France.

3.Creole French in the Caribbean (especially in Dominica, St. Lucia, Trinidad and Tobago& Haiti).

4.A Jamaican Creole language primarily based on English and African languages but also has influences from Spanish, Portuguese and Hindi.

5.Jargon or cant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.184.44 (talk) 21:59, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

1. The original (ancien) definition of patois was unintelligible speech. Creole tends to be unintelligible to those French-Speakers who aren't Creole. Some may see being unintelligible as a negative quality when in fact it is just a quality. The negative connotation of being unintelligible comes from people and what they associate it with. 2. Patois is frank, blunt and crass speech. People who speak Creole or any other day-to-day version of a language for that matter tend to speak frankly, blunty and if you know Haitians very crass. 3. A patois is substandard speech. Well if French is the standard then Creole is substandard. This simply means in the case of languages that Creole lacks certain features that the standard (French) has and that it has certain features that French doesn't. 4. Patois is simple talk which Creole is. After all, Creole parler, creole comprendre. When a Saint Lucian says "Mwen ka pale patwa" they are not referring to their dialect in a negative way nor does any patois speaker. Negative notions about a patois usually comes from one who doesn't understand it.

In regards to the whole language thing I will explain it again. Bref, Spanish & English two COMPLETELY different languages. French & Creole yes different but NOT COMPLETELY different languages note again COMPLETELY. Creole is a dialect of French thus it is a variant of French. A variant is not a separate language. The same goes for English and Jamaican patois.

But what about Spanish and French? Portuguese and Italian? Catalan & Picard? Sicilian and Gallo? These Western Romance languages are all more similar to each other in a great many systematic ways than French and French-lexified creoles.

Prof Wrong (talk) 12:21, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Note that the categorization of Jamaican patois as a Creole language is wrong too. In fact no Jamaicans refer to their dialect as Creole. The entry of the Jamaican patois also has no real relation to the various French dialects other than the fact that they use the term patois to refer to their dialect.

Nonsense. The Jamaicans may call the language "Patwa", but that does not change the fact that it is a creole. We talk about "shellfish" in English, even though fish have no shells. Common names do not and cannot deny scientific nomenclature. Prof Wrong (talk) 21:07, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

I never said linguists don't classify it as a "creole" language but rather that Jamaicans themselves do not use that term in reference to their dialect. My whole point on that subject being that the name chosen to classify dialects such as Haitian Creole and Jamaican Patois should be called something other than Creole. It misrepresents our French Creole culture by associating it with non-French creole cultures. I'm not saying that this will change just that it should be acknowledged. Haitian Creole and the other French Creole dialects weren't named creole because linguists said so. They carried that name before that term became used as a classification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.184.44 (talk) 01:09, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Do you complain about your language being described as "analytic" on the same grounds? There are plenty of analytic languages in the world, and French is not one of them. Does describing Creole as an analytic language "misrepresent [y]our French Creole culture"?

It's a meaningful descriptive term. Prof Wrong (talk) 12:13, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I am not complaining about anything I am simply stating something about the way linguists use the term Creole to classify group languages who are not related and have nothing to do with Creole culture. Some of the languages classified as such have nothing to do with French Creole culture, Lingusts ingnorantly labeled unrelated languages as Creole languages these are facts. You may feel I'm complaining because I use the term ignorant but that is not the case it was done in ignorance or rather not fully comprehending. I am just stating something.

Grammar

Now someone will probably delete this because anything a native Creole speaker adds is deemed incorrect on this page but I made a few changes to spelling and grammar on the page.

• "Fanmi an m" is not correct it should be fanmi'm nan although most people would just say fanmi'm

whoever put fanmi an m was probably thinking of the martiniquais and guadeloupeen dialects and even then it would be fanmi an mwen which is the long form and which in Haiti would be fanmi a mwen.

• The usage of Yon is way off and Yon is used too much in the article. Both indefinite articles are not separated by region yon is used in certain instances.
• Li dormi a swe a Means he/she sleeps this evening. Li dormi le swa means he/she sleeps in the evening. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Creoleavie (talk • contribs) 18:19, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not a question of "anything a native X speaker adds is deemed incorrect" for any given language X, it's that anything without a citation is deemed unreliable. Our own intuitions about our own personal way of speaking are often incorrect, so what chance does an individual have of being able to intuit the language of an entire country? Before I studied English (my native language) at university, I had many beliefs that were wrong about the language, and I declared things "wrong" that on closer inspection turned out to be the most common form in the language.

The situation in Haiti, or any other Creole country, is even more complicated, given that there exists a spectrum between basilect Creole and French. It may well be that your distinction between "yon" and "on" is a social difference, with the more Francophonic middle classes maintaining the distinction as in informal French: "un"/"y a un", but this distinction may be truly lost in the rural working class basilect speakers, with "on"/"yon" being a regional difference.

One way or another, it's an extremely complicated situation, and we can't take your word for it without seeing something published by a respected authority with some research to back it up.

It's nothing personal, and it's certainly not meant as disrespect to your or any other speaker. Prof Wrong (talk) 13:35, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Furthermore, the official orthography should be followed in the examples, and the apostrophe you use is not permitted in the official orthography. You are free to write in any orthography you chose when writing your own material, but editorially, Wikipedia doesn't let me write English howevva i wanna, I'm supposed to stick to convention. So while you can argue about what you say and how you say it, it should still be written in accordance with the norms. Prof Wrong (talk) 13:44, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Could you clarify something for me: do bekàn/bekann and telefòn/telefonn have a nasal vowel in the last syllable or a non-nasal vowel? Prof Wrong (talk) 13:56, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Bekàn/Bekann – usually has a nasal ‘a’

Telefòn/Telefonn – the last vowel in telefòn isn’t usually nasal but this varies depending on the accent of the person