Talk:Jordan Valley

Merge

What exactly is the differnce between Jordan Valley (Middle East) and Jordan Rift Valley? Why do we need 2 article s to describe essentially the same thing? Isarig 23:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Please see my comments at the Jordan Rift Valley and read the sources cited throughout both articles. Tiamat 16:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Error re population

The figures given in the text for the population of the Jordan Valley from the CIA Fact Book refer to the Jordanian side of the Jordan Valley, while this article is about the land on the other side of the Jordan river, which has been under Israeli control since 1967. IOW, the land on either side of the Jordan river can be and is referred to as the Jordan Valley. The two should not be confused. I don't have good population figures for the Israeli-controlled portion of Jordan Valley or I would put them in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.4.9 (talk) 19:46, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Apparently there are conflicting claims about the population of the Valley before 1967. There is a EU report claiming that there used to be "between 200,000 and 320,000 people" living there before the Six Day War, but the Israeli census of the time talks about 9,078 people in the Jericho district. Of course, this was after the war, so all the people who fled then were already unaccounted for.Froy1100 (talk) 16:43, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Content merged from Jordan Rift Valley article

Merged content from the Jordan Rift Valley which was irrelevant to that geology article into this article. Content moved/merged included the tourism, agriculture, and demographics material. Vsmith (talk) 20:19, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Wrong first picture

This picture shows a landscape which IS NOT PART OF THE JORDAN VALLEY AS DEFINED HERE! It shows the southern Sea of Galilee, but WITHOUT even the exit point of the Jordan River (that would be the rounded end which is not part of the picture, farther to its right), which is where the Jordan Valley starts according to the definition presented here.

The confusion with the far longer Jordan Rift Valley, which unlike the Jordan Valley does include the Sea of Galilee, is one probable cause for this mistake, and is the source of much more confusion. Needs careful stressing, even to the point of repetition - as proven here.

In the local Israeli terminology the southern part of the Sea of Galilee/Lake Kinneret is one unit with the northern part of the Jordan Valley, see Emek HaYarden Regional Council. This is probably the second cause ofconfusion.

In short, the Arabic "Ghor" and the Hebrew "Emek" both are defined much wider than the "Jordan Valley" is in this article. Beware of much, never-ending confusion.Arminden (talk) 21:40, 8 July 2015 (UTC)Arminden

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Removing impeccably sourced material

Debresser. Consensus means responding to another person's comments. I gave 3 strong reasons why your edit summary removing material was erratic and not ground in policy [here] So please tell me:

• The source says 'Palestinian Bedouins' and you say they are two different things. Please explain why you are correct, and the source wrong.
• You state B'tselem is an 'radical leftist' organ and fails RS (poor source). Please point to me the relevant part of RSN discussions which has determined it is not RS.
• You state that there is no grounds for putting information prior to 1993 regarding demolitions into the demolition section. Explain why a section of Demolitions should exclude those occurring before the Oslo Accords.Nishidani (talk) 21:01, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

I have split the sentence into two parts. The first part, that Israel severely restricts movement, building etc. in the Jordan Valley is an accepted fact. I have added another source, the Red Cross, for the statement. The second part, saying that this is a de facto annexation of the Jordan Valley; for this part I have added another book, from Indiana University Press. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 21:14, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

I have added another source by Itamar Rabinovich et. al. which gives the Israeli viewpoint that the Jordan Valley should be held for security reasons. Debresser's edit is not accurate: the charge of annexation is not just made by B'Tselem, so attributing it to B'Tselem would be wrong. The source quotes B'Tselem (and others) but it says the same thing in its own voice in the rest of the section. The section concludes with: Actual Israeli practices in the Jordan Valley and statements issued by high ranking officers indicate that what lies behind Israel's policy is not a security-military motive, but rather a political one. What is taking place is the annexation of this land to Israel. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 11:45, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Jordan Valley

The opening section is so crafted as to defy the way the Jordan Valley is mentioned in IP sources, i.e. as part of the West Bank. This should be registered, because the complexity and vagueness of the introduction fails to clarify this. I suggest Elisha Efrat The West Bank and Gaza Strip: A Geography of Occupation and Disengagement, Routledge, 2006 p.34Nishidani (talk) 21:27, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

One can probably simply change the phrasing to make it clear that the Jordan Valley is part of the West Bank. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 21:44, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

The problem is that the northern part fo the Jordan Valley is not part of the West Bank. As a result, I think we can easily leave this article the way it is, since the second paragraph of the lead already implies that the status of at least part of the Jordan Valley is disputed. By the way, I saw a nice article about the Jordan Valley here. Debresser (talk) 16:56, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

You appear to be confusing the Jordan Rift Valley with the Jordan Valley. Where's your map, vs this,The Jordan Valley and the region of the northern Dead Sea cover approximately 160,000 hectares, which make up about 28.8% of the West Bank (see accompanying map) The Jewish Virtual Library admits that 'The Jordan Valley lies within the Palestinian territory of the West Bank.'; the BBC says the the Jordan Valley of our article was 'captured by Israel during the 1967 Six Day War.' Remember my advice Debresser. Opinions count for zilch in editing. We are obliged to use sources, and unless you can summon adequate evidence for your contention, it has no value for this encyclopedia, and is immaterial to this talk page's purpose.Nishidani (talk) 19:16, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

You started so well, commenting on the subject and not on the editor, and then you just had to be a patronizing dick again. I don't need your advice, and I don't want it, and I ask you to stop giving it. As you have been told at WP:AE before.

As to the point. You are wrong, because this article clearly says that the Jordan Valley starts "from the spot where it exits the Sea of Galilee in the north", and that is far higher than where the West Bank begins. Debresser (talk) 20:19, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

This is kindergarten level advice, Debresser. I gave you several sources. You replied that you don't accept them because our article contradicts them. Wikipedia as all beginners are told, cannot be cited as a reliable source, as you just did. Do you understand this? Nishidani (talk) 08:07, 25 May 2017 (UTC)