Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh

Early history

The way the early history is written completely disregards a neutral point of view. It gives the reader a wrong view. I believe replacing the quote with this one is more neutral. Robert Hewsen wrote both sides are guilty of oversimplifying the ethnic history of the region, "the population of southeast Caucasus whether under Armenian or Albanian rule, was highly mixed, and to label it as being essentially one or the other or even to divide it simply into two groups is well in advance of the evidence. " Original reference: Robert H. Hewsen, "Ethno-History and the Armenian Influence Upon the Caucasian Albanians" Nocturnal781 (talk) 05:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

The entire section is very bad written. There are quotations out of context and/or superseded. Hewsen himself corrected some of his theories that he put forward in Ethno-History. --vacio 15:20, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with vacio. Hewsen changed his point of view. Consult his Atlas for reference and his appearance in Tom de Waal's Black Garden. By the way, I a week ago supported a restoration of a much better-written history section that was put together earlier in 2011 but was erased by User:Tuscumbia who was banned yesterday for a year. Since he is banned, his edits should be reverted. Zimmarod (talk) 23:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with changes to the early history section. Nocturnal781 (talk) 23:43, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. Hewsen clearly sticks to his original position in his interview to de Waal, refers to the same work of 1980s and accuses both sides of manipulating the historical facts. Also, primary sources should not be interpreted by wiki editors. We can only refer to interpretations by reliable secondary sources. Mainstream history does not support the idea that Armenians were aboriginal inhabitants of NK and South Caucasus. Since the ancestors of Armenians came into region at some point in history, clearly the region was inhabited by other people before that happened. Also, the sources used must be all neutral and third party, while Caucasian Knot by Chorbaijan and other similar sources are clearly partisan. Also, there are too many suspicions accounts here, restoring edits by other banned SPAs and agreeing with each other. For instance, Nocturnal781 looks pretty much like an SPA. Created on January 9, 2012, the very first edit is to deredlink his user age to look like an established user, and for the most part is engaged in edit warring on AA articles. Zimmarod is the same, created in November 2011, instantly deredlinked his user page and jumped into AA edit wars. I propose to ban all new accounts from editing articles like this, unless they prove themselves good faith editors by editing articles outside of AA conflict for at least 1 year. Grandmaster

That would be grand. --Golbez (talk) 19:41, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Would you support such a proposal? Grandmaster 11:50, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Hewsen didn't completely change his position on the ethno-history of the region, but there are some differences and adjustments that I think we have to pay attention to. I have once pointed out some of these differences (please read from the line Coming to the main point). I agree with Grandmaster to use Hewsen and other third party sources, but in this article Hewsen is quoted out of context and incompletely, furthermore the contradiction made between his later statements is in large part artificial and the consequence of not good examining sources. To be more specific, in both his Ethno-History and Atlas of Armenia Hewsen demonstrates that the entire historical Armenia was inhabited by non-Indo-European tribes, who were not Armenians as we understand today, but pre-Armenians. Which means they were people who later intermarried with incoming proto-Armenians to form modern Armenian ethnicity. Grandmasters contention that Armenians were not aboriginal inhabitants of NK is not exactly what Hewsen says. According to Hewsen the ancestors of the people of NK were both the mostly aboriginal pre-Armenians and the supposedly immigrant proto-Armenians. The only difference between his earlier and later works is, that in Ethno-History he assumed that some of these pre-Armenians were certain Iranian people, while in Atlas he writes that this is uncertain. --vacio 22:15, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I support Zimmarod's initiative to restore the deleted material, and endorse his discussion from the subject-matter perspective. I see imperfections in the restored paragraphs but that can be fixed later. What I also see yet another interesting fact, the re-appearance of Wikipedia's notorious account User:Grandmaster. I remember this account from my time in Russian wiki when Grandmaster was accused by Divot of managing a large sockfarm and off-Wiki coordination via distribution lists. See www.wikireality.ru/wiki/%D0%98%D0%A1%D0%9A589. It is notable that Grandmaster, who was editing very infrequently last and this year, suddenly re-appeared on this very page (and not editing some article, but on talk pages) only a day after the sanctioning of his Ruswiki's comrade-in-arms User:Tuscumbia to a one-year ban from AA. It was proven in Russian wiki that Tuscumbia and Grandmaster coordinated their edits. And here is Grandmaster, making claims that are absolutely identical to Tuscumbia's. Tuscumbia was banned two times already for claiming that academics of suspected Armenian origin shall be excluded as reliable sources. Grandmaster claims that too right here, trying to exclude Chorbadjian. That will not work. The Caucasian Knot's history section was indeed praised by Thomas de Waal in his most recent monograph, but even if it was not, excluding academics solely because of their purported ethnicity is racist and will be reported and punished continuously. My proposal is simple: to ban User:Grandmaster because of his known off-wiki manipulations, and ban all those accounts from this article which were ever sanctioned under AA1 or AA2. I browsed Grandmaster editing history and it turns out that a precedent for such an action does exist - Grandmaster is banned from editing the Caucasian Albania article.

On the subject of who is and who is not indigenous in Armenia and Karabakh. Hewsen places Artsakh within Orontid's Armenia. Secondly, Mesrob Mashtots founded the first Armenian school to teach his Armenian Alphabet in Nagorno-Karabakh's Amaras Monastery and not in Yerevan or Constantinople. Got it? I recommend Grandmaster more carefully examine recent discussion on talk pages in Murovdag, when stubborn Tuscumbia tried to sabotage edits by making ridiculous insinuations. His fate may await anyone who borrows his methodology. Please note that filibustering, tendentious editing and repeating the same points over and over again - WP:Ad nauseam - will be subject to sanction as per [1] in the recent case with Murovdag. Winterbliss (talk) 01:18, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

There is also information on meta-wiki confirming that Grandmaster was head of 26 Baku Commissars. But I ask Winterbliss and Grandmaster to discuss their proposals to ban certain users in a different section or on the AA2 page. Please let's keep the conversation here on the subject and on a friendly tone. And Winterbliss, let's refrain from ORs based on certain historical facts, there is enough OR in this article already. Thank you. --vacio 10:07, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

First of all, I was not banned from editing any article here, Caucasian Albania included. The ban applies to everyone who was under any sanctions at any time, which pretty much leaves that article to various socks by excluding established users, most of whom were sanctioned. And I don't see how events in other language wikis have anything to do with what's going on here. Now coming to Hewsen, I see no mention of pre-Armenians, if you mean by that people who were later assimilated by Armenians. By the same token, we can mention pre-Azerbaijanis, i.e. Caucasian Albanians who were later assimilated by Turkic people. The fact is that the original population of the Caucasus was neither Armenian nor Turkic, it consisted of various people mostly of Caucasian origin, such as udis. These people were later assimilated by Armenians and Azerbaijanis, but as Hewsen mentioned, the original population represented "heterogenous mass" which "were originally much too diversified". As for reliability of sources, I must remind everyone that we should use third party sources, per WP:VERIFY: Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. That's what the rules require. Also, the sources must be specialist. I remember that when the Muslim mosque in Yerevan was discussed, some Armenian users were rejecting de Waal because he was a journalist and not historian. Why should we refer to journalists in the matters of history in this article then? Chorbadjian is not third party, and he is not a historian either. Grandmaster 11:44, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Btw, Winterbliss is another curious account. It appeared in November 2011, and also deredlinked his user and talk page by first edits to look like an established user. So there are 3 of such accounts here now, all agreeing with each other. Let's see if there are more to join. Grandmaster 11:48, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Hewsen uses "pre-Armenian" in both Ethno-History and Historial Atlas many times. And he writes that the whole Armenian plateau was inhabited by various ethnic entities before they would intermarry the proto-Armenians (There, they intermarried with the non-Indo-European-speaking natives, already a highly mixed people to form the Armenian people that we know today, Atlas, p. 10). Also, according to Hewsen Udis did not live in Artsakh neither does he mention Cacuasian Albanians or pre-Azerbaijanis living in Artsakh. --vacio 16:23, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Grandmaster is repeating the same points over and over again (Chorbadjian, discussing Armenian identity of peoples living at the time when wooly mammoths roamed the earth :)))), etc.), a method of filibustering a consensus used most recently by User:Tuscumbia in the talks on Murovdag. Like Tuscumbia, Grandmaster is referring to other articles, like mosque in Yerevan above, and other topics, citing imperfections in them as a ground to hold changes in article under discussion. He pretends not to hear that de Waal is an official wiki source on Karabakh, etc. That is why Grandmaster's edit history in Russian wiki is a relevant subject regardless of the fact that Ruswiki and English wiki are different projects - there is lots and lots of evidence that in English wiki Grandmaster uses the same tricks as in Ruswiki, and the recently banned Tuscumbia, as well Mursel are either one editor or a team coordinating their actions off wiki. I never denied that I am a well-established user coming from Ruswiki. I deredlinked my account because I have a long editing history in Ruswiki, and there were many discussions and SPIs about that. Grandmaster is Tuscumbia's quacking meatpuppet who came to the rescue of his recently-banned comrade. He quacks so loudly it is almost deafening. Winterbliss (talk) 22:20, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Misquotation of Suny

Also Sunny is very badly misquoted in this section. The text added by User:Mursel:

Another Armenian historian, Ronald Grigor Suny, argues that Azerbaijanis are the direct descendants of the native Caucasian Albanians and that the territory of Artsakh historically belongs to them.

Sunys text:

Karabagh had been in acient and medieval times part of the kingdom of the Caucasian Albanians. This etho-religious group, now long extinct, had converted to Christianity in the fourth century and drew close to the Armenian church. Over time its upper classes were effectively Armenized. When the Seljuks invaded Transcaucasia in the 11th century, a process of Islamization began that resulted in the conversion of the peoples of the plain to the east of Karabagh to Islam. These people were the direct ancestors of present-day Azerbaijanis, spoke a Turkic language and adopted the Shi'i brand of Islam dominant in neighboring Iran. The mountains remained largely Christian, and in time the Karabagh Albanians merged with the Armenians

As one can see, Suny doesn't claim anywhere that Artsakh "historically" would belong to Azerbajanis. In fact his mention of Azerbaijanis is not about Artsakh/Karabakh at all. All Suny contends in the passage above is:

• Transcuacasus was conquered by Seljuks in the 11th century.
• People living to the east of Karabakh were islamicized and they spoke a Turkic language
• Those people were ancestors of present-day Azerbaijanis. --vacio 16:46, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Misquotation is a serious violation of WP rules. How can such an account be trusted and allowed to continue editing this article? Winterbliss (talk) 22:38, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I changed it, I don't think leaving information that is referenced where the reference is misquoted should be allowed in a article for another second..Nocturnal781 (talk) 23:04, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

According to Hewsen the people of Artsakh were not Caucasian Albanians. Suny bases his text on a superseded theory, according to which Arsakh had been part of Caucasian Albania in 2th century BC. --vacio 10:54, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Hewsen said that people of Artsakh and Utik were of mixed origin, and non-Indo-European, except for people of Iranian origin. And despite some Armenicization, they still were distinct ethnicities when those lands passed to Albania. He clearly says that aboriginl population of Artakh was not Armenian. He cites the names of the tribes inhabiting the region and says that "these names are sufficient to tell us that, whatever their origin, they were certainly not Armenian. Moreover, although certain Iranian peoples must have settled here during the long period of Persian and Median rule, most of the natives were not even Indo-Europeans". And also:

These peoples, all conquered by the Armenians in the second century B. C., must have been subjected to a great deal of Armenicization over the next few centuries, but most of them were still being cited as distinct ethnic entities when these regions passed to Albania in 387, some 500 years later.

So aboriginal population, later assimilated by Armenians and Turkic people, was mostly of Caucasian origin. The region was later conquered by Armenians, then passed to C.Albania, but the population remained mixed and tribal. That's what the mainstream history says. And Hewsen is not the only source. Grandmaster 13:03, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Grandmaster, what exactly do you try to assert? Yes, Hewsen wrote that Artsakh was originally inhabited by various non-Armenian or pre-Armenian tribes. I don't see anyone contesting against this theory here on this TP. My point is that when this theory is mentioned then it should be in its context, complete, furthermore one should also take into account the adjustments that the author made in his recent works. The article, as it now is, needs serious corrections. I am going to rewrite the section and I think it's necessary that the following information is correctly represented in the article:

• In ancient times the Armenian plateau, including Artsakh and Utik, was inhabited by various mostly non-Indo-European tribes. (Atlas, p. 10; Ethno-History, p. 31, 33)
• These people entered the Armenian plateau from various directions (Atlas, p. 10)
• It is uncertain whether Artsakh itself was inhabited by various tribes or just one tribe. (Atlas, p. 58)
• After the fall of Urartu, these people started to intermarry with the incoming proto-Armenians. The Armenians thus represent a fusion of the non Indo-European aborigines and the Indo-European proto-Armenians. (Ethno-History, p. 31) Which means that the claim that the Armenians were not natives is a misrepresentation of the sources.
• The fusion took earlier place in the central part of the Armenian plateau, than in eastern regions like Syunik, Artsakh and Utik. (Atlas, p. 10)
• At the time when Artsakh and Utik passed to Caucasian Albanian, their population consisted of "Armenized" tribes and Armenians "per se". (Ethno-History, pp. 33-34)
• In medieval times the population of Artsakh had a strong Armenian identity. (Atlas, p. 58)

I will be glad to see any further suggestions to improve the article is. Also, I agree that Hewsen is not the only author. Any other reputable sources are welcome to be discussed. --vacio 16:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

First off, if Armenians "represent a fusion of the non Indo-European aborigines and the Indo-European proto-Armenians", it does not make them natives to region. By the same token, Azerbaijanis are as much natives as Armenians are, because Azerbaijanis are the fusion of Turkic tribes with aboriginal diverse population of Albania. This logic is flawed, because it cannot apply to Armenians only. As for population of Artsah and Utik, they were Armenized to a certain degree, but not fully, because "most of them were still being cited as distinct ethnic entities when these regions passed to Albania in 387", according to Hewsen. Grandmaster 11:48, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

That is your own interpretation of history. Hewsen does not say anywhere in his studies that since the proto-Armenians (according one theory!) were migrants, hence the Armenian people are not natives. Such a claim is essentially ahistorical, since it is based on the lack of making difference between pre Armenian and proto Armenian elements.

As for your comparison with Azeris — whether they are natives or not— I am not sure if that's relevant to this topic. If I am not wrong, the ancestors of Azerbaijanis came to the Caucasus as Turkic people already, with Turkic identity. Anyhow, I don't remember any scholar calling them proto Azerbaijanis. Also, these ancestors did not absorb Albanians, but people who were Islamized during Arab rule (see p. 35 Ethno-History). Caucasian Albanians were Christians, don't forget.

Yes, in 387 they were mostly Armenized, not completely. Thank you for correcting me. --vacio 12:26, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think he says anywhere anything about either Azerbaijanis or Armenians being natives. That is your own interpretation. As for Azerbaijanis, they indeed absorbed mostly Islamized population, but part of this population was previously Christian. And Albanians is a name for a tribal federation, which consisted of 26 tribes. Of course, Azerbaijanis absorbed Albanians, but not just them. People of Dagestani and Iranian stock also played a significant role in ethnogenesis of Azerbaijani people. But I think the talk about anyone being native or not is not relevant to this article. It is better stick to the fact, and not interpretations. Grandmaster 10:44, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

That is your own interpretation - Where did I make any interpretation or claim above? I only argued against your claim that the Armenians are not natives in the region. Yes, the best thing is to stick to the facts and don't make any interpretation. Also we should refrain from incomplete representation of facts or citations out of context. That's why I quoted Hewsen point by point above. Any other comments or suggestions? --vacio 13:59, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Leaving theoretical disputes aside, what exactly is proposed to be included in the section about ancient history? That section could be improved, but overall it looks more or less balanced, while the mention of Khorenatsi could be removed. And when the article says "other Western authors argued", who are those other authors? Grandmaster 09:47, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Good, and I want to try to improve it. About Movses Khorenatsi I already commented below.--vacio 18:00, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Movses Khorenatsi

Also I read in the section Early history:

However, relying on information provided by the 5th century Armenian historian Movses Khorenatsi, other Western authors argued—and Hewsen himself indicated later—that these peoples could have been conquered by the Kingdom of Armenia much earlier, in the 4th century BC.[14] However it is noteworthy that the credibility of Movses Khorenatsi is disputed.

The only reference in the first sentence is p. 32-33 of Armenia: a Historical Atlas. However I carefully read everything Hewsen wrote about the early history of Artsakh and the Orontids, and he does not say anywhere that he based his research on the issue when Armenia did acquire Artsakh, on the History of Movses Khorenatsi. In fact, the map on the pages pp 32-33 is based on the research of the Armenian scholar Eremyan (see the legend). Furthermore, even if Hewsen and other Western scholars would rely on Movses Khorenatsi, the following two sentences about his credibility – again added by user Mursel – is a WP:SYNTHESIS of sources and should be removed. --vacio 10:54, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Proposed rewrite

After I explained above why that this passage Early History needs serious improvements, here is my proposed edited version (text that I didn't changes is italic):

Nagorno-Karabakh falls within the lands occupied by peoples known to modern archaeologists as the Kura-Araxes culture, who lived between the two rivers Kura and Araxes.

Known then as Artsakh, Nagorno-Karabakh had probably a varied ethnic character in Antiquity [ref: Atlas, p. 58]. Its pre-Armenians or non-Armenians natives would intermarry with the so called proto-Armenians who came to the region after its inclusion to Armenia in the 2nd or possibly in 4th century BC. According to the prevailing theory among western historians, the Armenian people represent a fusion of these two ethnic elements which started in the western and central part of the Armenian Plateau after the fall of Urartu in 6th century BC and moved to the east [ref: Atlas, p 10][ref: Ethno-History, p 31].

Overall, from around 180 BC and up until the 4th century — before becoming part of the Armenian Kingdom again, in 855 — the territory of Nagorno-Karabakh remained part of the Armenian Kingdom as the province of Artsakh. After the partition of Armenia between Byzantium and Persia, in 387 AD, Artsakh and the neighboring province Utik became part of Caucasian Albania, which, in turn, came under strong Armenian religious and cultural influence. At this time, the population of these two provinces had a highly Armenian character although many of the aboriginal tribes were still cited as distinct ethnic entities. [...]

I would be glad to hear any remarks and additional suggestions (also from NPOV users like Golbez). --vacio 18:19, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Just so you know, I'm pretty annoyed with this article, and from the start of this latest episode have had no interest in actually reading the proposed edits. Just the manner in which they've been implemented. --Golbez (talk) 14:51, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

The sentence about pre-Armenians or non-Armenians natives is unsourced and "according to the prevailing theory among western historians, the Armenian people represent a fusion" is more relevant to Demographics of Armenia or History of Armenia. As for the second paragraph, I don't think it's factually accurate as it stands. Brandmeister t 16:38, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I think, the origin of Armenian people is also relevant to this article and actually very important to be mentioned. According to Hewsen, the theory about how the Armenian people evolved is essential to describe the ethnic picture of Artsakh in Antiquity and (early) mediaeval times.

Let us take as a starting point the question of the ethnic composition of the population of Arc'ax and Utik', the regions between the Arax and the Kur which were Armenian territory until 387 and which lie in Azerbaidzhán today. To Mnac'akanyan, this territory was originally Armenian; to Bunjatov, it was Albanian. What do we actually know of its history? [...] The general consensus today is that the Armenians, as we know them, represent a fusion between these incoming tribes—conventionally called "Armens"—and the diverse natives of the plateau who had previously formed a part of the Urartian federation.32 For this fusion to have taken place, however, the so-called "Armens" would have had to have spread across the plateau from west to east [...] (Ethno-History, p. 31)

As for pre-Armenian it is the common term used by scholars to designate the tribes who lived in the Armenian plateau before the proto-Armenians came. Probably you did not read the discussion above, because I already provided sources for it. Finally, I didn't change much in the second paragraph, as one can see. If you explain which statements you think are inaccurate, we can check the sources and if necessary correct or change them. Anyhow, the mention that Artsakh became part of Armenia in 2nd century BC, that it passed to Caucasian Albania in 4th century AD and that Caucasian Albania itself was then highly influenced by Armenia (as one can read in Ethno-History of Hewsen), seem correct to me. --vacio 18:26, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Vacio, thanx for your good archival and sourcing work. I find it to be quite helpful. I support the rewrite but donot understand "although many of the aboriginal tribes were still cited as distinct ethnic entities." See Anania Shirakatsi's remark about Artsakh and Utik which were considered to be part of Armenia in Armenia regardless of their weaker connection to Armenia due to attachment to Aghvank. I also would like to see distinction between "Cauasian Albania" of the older times and Kingdom of Aghvank - an Armenian state in all sense and purposes, where Armenians lived in the west and non-Armenians dominated the state's eastern part. We need to restore the entire earlier write-up back to Oct 2011. Zimmarod (talk) 19:42, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Frankly, I didn't had time to screen all the changes between current version and that of Oct 2011. So I can't agree or disagree with the proposal to restore is. My rewrite proposal only refers to the passage Early History, in particular the ethnic composition of the region in Antiquity and early medieval times. Just want to make two remarks.

• About the phrase although many of the aboriginals ...:

This statements is from Ethno-History of Hewsen. It means that most of the pre Armenian tribes which lived in the mountainous part of Armenia in prehistoric times (such as Syunik, Artsakh..) could maintain their tribal identity for a long time, even until the 4th century DC when the ethnic character of this regions was largely Armenian. That's the theory of Hewsen, not my personal opinion. As for Anania Shirakatsi, he is a primary source, and per WP rules we must rely on academic sources.

• About making distinction between Caucasian Albania and the Kingdom of Aghvank:

First of all, whatever it's political and cultural situation was —and indeed the situation changed drastically after 387— Caucasian Albania remained Caucasian Albania and officially did not become an other state; Aghvank is just the Armenian name of Caucasian Albania. --vacio 15:27, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

I have problems with this statement: At this time, the population of these two provinces had a highly Armenian character although many of the aboriginal tribes were still cited as distinct ethnic entities. This does not sound like good English. What is "highly Armenian character"? My understanding of Hewsen is that the region was under the Armenian cultural influence, but population remained mixed, with most of the local tribes still being cited as distinct ethnic entities in the 4th century A.D. And I do not think restoring edits of the banned users is a good idea, those edits are highly POV and contain lots of original research. Banned users are not allowed to edit, so no blind reverts to their version should be allowed. Any substantial edits should be discussed here first. Grandmaster 10:21, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I will try a better wording of that sentence. Hewsen says: In 387 A. D., the various peoples of Arc'ax and Utik', whether Armenians, Armenicized aborigines, or both, passed under Albanian rule. --vacio 11:08, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Please see that the edits of banned users are now owned by Zimmarod who explained their relevancy and highlighted references. So the question is solved. We already heard about the "POV" nonsense, and I don't see any original research. Winterbliss (talk) 20:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I removed Mursel false quotation from obscure source that conflicted with a similar reference per RNajdek's and Winterbliss' comments [2]. Dehr (talk) 02:18, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeapp, agree totally. Also wanna reply to Grandmaster concerning edits by accounts that were considered socks. Imagine someone put out edits that pigs cannot fly and then get's banned. Does this mean that everyone should after that maintain that pigs can fly only because one account was banned as a sock? That's why Grandmaster and the likes of Tuscumbia-Mursel sockpair want to get accounts banned under the false clams of sockpuppetry so that their nonsense could pass for a golden coin forever. They want to ban the truth. The edits should stay or be removed based on their merit not based on who says what. Is that understood? Winterbliss (talk) 02:50, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I propose the following addition to early medieval period:

The Armenian medieval atlas Ashkharatsuits (Աշխարացույց), compiled in the 7th century by Anania Shirakatsi (Անանիա Շիրակացի, but sometimes attributed to Movses Khorenatsi as well), categorizes Artsakh and Utik as provinces of Armenia despite their presumed detachment from the Armenian Kingdom and their political association with Caucasian Albania and Persia at the time of his writing. Shirakatsi specifies that Artsakh and Utik are “now detached” from Armenia and included in “Aghvank,” and he takes care to distinguish this new entity from the old “Aghvank strictly speaking” (Բուն Աղվանք) situated north of the river Kura. Because the Armenian element was more homogeneous and more developed than the tribes living to the north of the Kura River, Armenians took over Caucasian Albania’s political life and was progressively able to impose its language and culture.

Whatever little is known about Nagorno-Karabakh and other eastern Armenian-peopled territories in the early Middle Ages comes from the text History of the Land of Aghvank (Պատմություն Աղվանից Աշխարհի) attributed to two Armenian authors: Movses Kaghankatvatsi and Movses Daskhurantsi. This text, written in Old Armenian, in essence represents the history of Armenia’s provinces of Artsakh and Utik. Kaghankatvatsi, repeating Movses Khorenatsi, mentions that the very name “Aghvank”/“Albania” is of Armenian origin, and relates it to the Armenian word “aghu” (աղու, meaning “kind,” “benevolent”. Khorenatsi states that “aghu” was a nickname given to Prince Arran, whom the Armenian king Vagharshak I appointed as governor of northeastern provinces bordering on Armenia. According to a legendary tradition reported by Khorenatsi, Arran was a descendant of Sisak, the ancestor of the Siunid dynasty that ruled Armenia's province of Syunik, and thus a great-grandson of the ancestral eponym of the Armenians, the Forefather Hayk. Kaghankatvatsi and another Armenian author, Kirakos Gandzaketsi, confirm Arran’s belonging to Hayk’s blood line by calling Arranshahiks “a Haykazian dynasty.”

Armenian culture and civilization flourished in the early medieval Nagorno-Karabakh — in Artsakh and Utik. In the 5th century, the first-ever Armenian school was opened on the territory of modern Nagorno-Karabakh — at the Amaras Monastery — by the efforts of St. Mesrob Mashtots, the inventor of the Armenian Alphabet. St. Mesrob was very active in preaching Gospel in Artsakh and Utik. Four chapters of Movses Kaghankatvatsi’s “History...” amply describe St. Mesrob’s mission, referring to him as “enlightener,” “evangelizer” and “saint”. Overall, Mesrob Mashtots made three trips to Artsakh and Utik, ultimately reaching pagan territories at the foothills of the Greater Caucasus. It was at that time when the foremost Armenian historian Movses Khorenatsi confirmed that the Kura River formed "the boundary of Armenian speech." The 7th-century Armenian linguist and grammarian Stephanos Syunetsi stated in his work that Armenians of Artsakh had their own dialect, and encouraged his readers to learn it. The same advice to study the Armenian dialect of Artsakh was repeated by Essayi Nchetsi, the founder of the University of Gladzor, in the 14th century. In the same 7th century, Armenian poet Davtak Kertogh writes his Elegy on the Death of Grand Prince Juansher, where each passage begins with a letter of Armenian script in alphabetical order.

In the 5th century’s Nagorno Karabakh, Vachagan II the Pious, ruler of Aghvank, adopted the so-called Constitution of Aghven (Սահմանք Կանոնական) — a code of civil regulations consisting of 21 articles and composed after a series of talks with leading clerical and civil figures of Armenia and Aghvank (e.g. Bishop of Syunik). In the 8th century, the Constitution of Aghven was included in the Armenian Book of Laws (Կանոնագիրք Հայոց) by the head of the Armenian Apostolic Church Hovhan III Odznetsi (Catholicos from 717-728), thus laying out a blueprint for later-era Armenian legal texts, such as the Lawcode written in the 12th century by Mkhitar Gosh. The Constitution of Aghven usually features as an inclusion in Movses Kaghankatvatsi’s History of the Land of Aghvank.

---

I know that it makes little sense to comment here at this point, but still I will explain why the above large chunk of text cannot be used in the article.

The Armenian medieval atlas Ashkharatsuits (Աշխարացույց), compiled in the 7th century by Anania Shirakatsi (Անանիա Շիրակացի, but sometimes attributed to Movses Khorenatsi as well), categorizes Artsakh and Utik as provinces of Armenia despite their presumed detachment from the Armenian Kingdom and their political association with Caucasian Albania and Persia at the time of his writing. Shirakatsi specifies that Artsakh and Utik are “now detached” from Armenia and included in “Aghvank,” and he takes care to distinguish this new entity from the old “Aghvank strictly speaking” (Բուն Աղվանք) situated north of the river Kura. Because the Armenian element was more homogeneous and more developed than the tribes living to the north of the Kura River, Armenians took over Caucasian Albania’s political life and was progressively able to impose its language and culture. Whatever little is known about Nagorno-Karabakh and other eastern Armenian-peopled territories in the early Middle Ages comes from the text History of the Land of Aghvank (Պատմություն Աղվանից Աշխարհի) attributed to two Armenian authors: Movses Kaghankatvatsi and Movses Daskhurantsi. This text, written in Old Armenian, in essence represents the history of Armenia’s provinces of Artsakh and Utik.

This part consist only of personal interpretation of primary sources. This is not allowed per WP:PRIMARY: Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large portions of material on them. The last line precisely describes what you do. Also, the above rule means that it is possible to provide a direct quote from a primary source, but it is not allowed to make any assumptions on the basis of them. The above passage is just a collection of personal interpretations of the primary sources. Anania Shirakatsi not simply quoted, but interpreted, because anyone who read the source knows that this is not what he wrote. Also, the wording "Nagorno-Karabakh and other eastern Armenian-peopled territories" is very strange and is unlikely to be used in any primary or academic source.

Kaghankatvatsi, repeating Movses Khorenatsi, mentions that the very name “Aghvank”/“Albania” is of Armenian origin, and relates it to the Armenian word “aghu” (աղու, meaning “kind,” “benevolent”. Khorenatsi states that “aghu” was a nickname given to Prince Arran, whom the Armenian king Vagharshak I appointed as governor of northeastern provinces bordering on Armenia. According to a legendary tradition reported by Khorenatsi, Arran was a descendant of Sisak, the ancestor of the Siunid dynasty that ruled Armenia's province of Syunik, and thus a great-grandson of the ancestral eponym of the Armenians, the Forefather Hayk.

Same, plus most of Western academia believes that Khorenatsi actually lived in the 10th-11th century, and even Hewsen considers inappropriate to make any conclusions on the basis of Khorenatsi's text, see his Ethno-History. The rest is pretty much the same, interpretation of the primary sources, which is not allowed, and no third party sources are used to support of any of such interpretations. References to some Armenian authors were later added, but except for Hewsen, none of those is third party. Note that WP:VERIFY holds: Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. So every interpretation of a primary source must be supported by an academic source (preferably Western) without any affiliation with the sides of the conflict. Such sources exist in abundance, and must be used. But what I see is that only the sources from one side are used, and those sources are not third party. For instance:

In the 5th century’s Nagorno Karabakh, Vachagan II the Pious, ruler of Aghvank, adopted the so-called Constitution of Aghven (Սահմանք Կանոնական) — a code of civil regulations consisting of 21 articles and composed after a series of talks with leading clerical and civil figures of Armenia and Aghvank (e.g. Bishop of Syunik). In the 8th century, the Constitution of Aghven was included in the Armenian Book of Laws (Կանոնագիրք Հայոց) by the head of the Armenian Apostolic Church Hovhan III Odznetsi (Catholicos from 717-728), thus laying out a blueprint for later-era Armenian legal texts, such as the Lawcode written in the 12th century by Mkhitar Gosh. The Constitution of Aghven usually features as an inclusion in Movses Kaghankatvatsi’s History of the Land of Aghvank.

Armenian nationalist author Ulubabyan used as a reference for some reason, while he is clearly not third party, while there are reliable third party sources available on the topic. For instance, Iranica [3]:

After the death of Vačē, Albania was to remain for thirty years without a king. It was the Sasanian Balāš (r. 484-88) who decided to reestablish the Albanian monarchy in the person of Vačagan, son of Yazdegerd and brother of the previous king Vačē (Movsēs, History 1.16, tr. p. 25). According to this version, Vačagan Barepaš (the pious) must have been descended from the royal family of Persia. He demonstrated great zeal for Christianity, commanding the nobles who had apostatized to return to the Christian religion and waging war not only on Magianism but also on pagan practices, idolatry, and sorcery (notably against the sect of the matnahatkʿ or “finger-cutters;” cf. below). He took the initiative in convening a church council at Aghuen (between 484 and 488); its canons were endorsed by high civil dignitaries and a certain number of nobles (Movsēs, History 1.26, tr. 50-54).

So Vachagan was of Parthian/Persian origin (Arcasid dynasty), and he was a king of Caucasian Albania, which is substituted here to strange "ruler of Aghvank". As for Chorbaijan, he was discussed in much detail 3 years ago with a previous sock of the banned user: [4] It is quite interesting that he was trying to implement the same edit with the use of the same sources as is done now.

In general, this whole chunk of text is of poor quality, and represents an original research, as is based on primary and non-third party sources. In general, this kind of substantial rewrites should be discussed line by line at talk, and included only when there's a consensus. Reinserting such large chucks of text time after time with the use of new accounts is not acceptable. Grandmaster 11:17, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

• Consensus was established please do not assert that it was not because it is a violation of WP:TE. Winterbliss (talk) 03:19, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

  No, it was not. Consensus does not mean a bunch of recent accounts appearing here and agreeing among themselves. Grandmaster 10:01, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• Please note that user Dehr replied to your opinion about "Chorbajian" quoting Tom de Waal's endorsement of the historical section of the book, with Tom being WP's top source on NK. Why do you remain against "Caucas. Knot" as a book? It is notable that your proved RuWiki meats Brandmeister, Quantum666 and Tuscumbia have the same opinion and they were banned (!) due to that opinion. Wow! Your meat circus from ruwiki had been pretty much owning things in this article, hadn't it ha? Winterbliss (talk) 03:27, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• I'm holding de Waal's book in my hands now, opened on page 102. No mention of Chorbajian there. Grandmaster 10:01, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Sources and Opinions

Here is a detailed reply to Grandmaster’s above insinuations about the article:

• The assertion that “this part consist only of personal interpretation of primary sources” is a mis-characterization of immediately confirmable facts. First, a quick look at the edits shows it is not true. Contemporary academic interpretations (secondary and tertiary sources e.g. Hewsen, “Caucasian Knot” etc.) are used extensively to support the purported primary sources (M.Khorenatsi). Perhaps Grandmaster and other uses from his suspected meat team failed to notice later improvements made by Dehr.

• Second, Grandmaster’s opinion is based on misinterpretation of WP:PRIMARY. The policy says: “Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation.” This means primary sources can be used and interpretation is allowed with the support of secondary sources. The addition of secondary sources was done by Dehr I beleive.

• Third, it is incorrect to believe that every ancient author is a primary source. Many ancient authors are retelling stories of their predecessors, and hence are secondary sources. See the language “Generally, primary sources are not accounts written after the fact with the benefit of hindsight” in Primary source. WP:PSTS says: Primary sources are very close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved. Movses Khorenatsi, Movses Kaghankatvatsi, Anania Shirakatsi, Kirakos Gandzaketsi and other old sources used in the text are both primary sources (when the authors act as chroniclers) and secondary sources when they base their research on earlier accounts. In contrast, some very modern sources are primary sources, e.g. the book “My brother's road” by Markar Melkonian, the brother of Armenian commander Monte Melkonian which is oft cited by Azerbaijani users.

• Grandmaster: “ … plus most of Western academia believes that Khorenatsi actually lived in the 10th-11th century.” Bizarre. There is an opinion that Khorenatsi was a later-era author who lived in the 8th century (10th-11th centuries is Grandmaster’s manipulation). See article Moses of Choren. But whether 5th century or 8th century or even 11th century is immaterial for what Khorenatsi said about Nagorno Karabakh. Interestingly, were Khorenatsi an 8th century author, he would be better qualified as a secondary source.

• Bagrat Ulubabyan is a good academic source. He was criticized by V. Shnirelman for his opinion on the ethnic origin of the population of Aghvank but that was the only criticism. And who was not criticized once or twice? Was not Albert Einstein criticized for his theories? Ulubabyan was used extensively in “Caucasian Knot” and “Caucasian Knot” in turn was endorsed by Tom de Waal (“The Caucasus” p. 102, footnote 2), the top source on the subject and Wiki’s officially endorsed source. Hence both the Western academic text “Caucasian Knot” and B.Ulubabyan’s writings are good and reliable sources per WP:NPOV. If anyone wants an example of POV sources dumped in an article, see Garadaghly Massacre which uses almost exclusively Azerbaijani state propaganda sources and government-sponsored hate publications, such as mns.gov.az, "Бакинский рабочий,” 1news.az, human.gov.az, etc. Grandmaster’s assertion is repeated over and over is a violation of WP:TE and WP:REHASH per [5] and [6]. Attempts to discredit sources on the account of putative ethno-racial background of authors will be reported as WP:BATTLE. Please note that users Brandmeister and Tuscumbia were banned based on such attempts.

• Encyclopedia Iranica indeed speculates Vachagan the Pious was of Arsakid origin. This is a curious fringe/deviated opinion per WP:FRINGE unsupported by primary or other secondary sources. It can be mentioned perhaps in a footnote of an article dedicated to Vachagan the Pious. The work of Movses Kaghankatvatsi which Iranica quotes says in the quoted ch. 16, book I [7]) that Aran was from the line of Japheth-Hayk, and that “Число царей от Арана до Вачагана Храброго, который был из великого рода Аршакуни, неизвестно. И о том, из какого рода они, достоверного я ничего не могу сказать. Вот по порядку имена тех, кто царствовал над страной Алуанк: Вачаган Храбрый, Вачэ, Урнайр, Иавчаган, Мерhаван, Сато, Асай, Есвален, Вачэ, далее Вачаган Благочестивый – царь Алуанка.” In other words, while Vachagan the Brave is mentioned as an Arsakid king, those who followed him incl. Vachagan the Pious were of unknown origin to Movses Kaghankatvatsi. Iranica misquotes the primary source – there were several monarchs called Vachagan and Iranica messed up. You shall not make for yourself an idol: Isaac Newton was the father of modern mechanics but he also was an avid alchemist; his work on physics is superb but does it mean we should pay attention to any alchemist idiocies he preoccupied himself with?

• Grandmaster: “Consensus does not mean a bunch of recent accounts appearing here and agreeing among themselves.” No, it does mean exactly that, especially since the “new accounts” are as old as 7 (!) to 4 months already (or like me, 2+ years of ruwiki experience). Consensus was established, and most subjects and topics on sources have been excessively discussed, verified and re-owned - do not assert that it was not so because it is a violation of WP:TE. The article needs further development and previously posted and removed material may be used for improving the text if it is found to be of good enough quality. Winterbliss (talk) 03:24, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

• The article has many references to Azerbaijani primary sources, such as Abbas-gulu Aga Bakikhanov (Golestan-i-Iram); Mirza Adigezal bey, (Karabakh-name), Просительные пункты и клятвенное обещание Ибраим-хана and Jamal Qarabaghi's History of Qarabagh. Should we wipe them out because they are primary sources according to Grandmaster?? Dehr (talk) 20:57, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

High Medieval, Late Medieval and Demographics sections

That's ok with me but most of this rewrite is already in the article. I also think a link to culture of NK article is imporotant to have here. Zimmarod (talk) 21:30, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

We can delete redundant passages and implant suggested additions. Dehr (talk) 22:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I also found a good map [8] that can be used for this article. Dehr (talk) 22:24, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Let's leave the map for the moment and get back to it when we discuss demographics. Now the High Middle Ages section is small and needs rewrite. Any thoughts about which material we can use from the previously available "post-owned" writeup [9]? My feel is we may need more info on HasanJalalyan family of Gandzasar. Winterbliss (talk) 18:41, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Original research of primary sources. Not acceptable. The proposed section is badly written, and represent personal ideas of the user. Note that we are not allowed to interpret primary sources ourselves. Grandmaster 19:04, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I doubt that proven and convicted meatmasters like Grandmaster can participate in this forum. I noticed no original research and no personal opinions but only Garndmaster's mis-characterization of this collective effort. I am adding secondary sources to back up some statements. Dehr (talk) 21:45, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

About the high middle ages think most things are just fine in the Zimmarod's version and they can be restored right away as they are but I want to know more about the formation of melikates and the 14-15 century events before and after the invasion my Tamerlane. Another thing is a passage needed to explain the demise of the Agvank and emergence of Khachen and other kingdoms on its place. These are obscurely discussed topics in WP and editors in this write up can be motvated to explore good sources telling about these transformations. Kingdom of Bagratid Armenia and its relations with Khachen can be explored in more details but maybe not. I also think that the demographic part can be restored to Zimmarod's ownership above in its entirety. Some work here should be done on sources regarding the ancient period. Dehr (talk) 01:21, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Late middle ages are also good but need more granularity on David Bek - Avan Yuzbashi connection and Karabakh as a center of signakh struggle against the Turkish invasion in the 18th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dehr (talk • contribs) 01:25, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Once again, you cannot make your own personal interpretations of primary sources, and Chorbaijan is neither a historian, nor a third party source. Reach consensus on talk before making controversial edits. Grandmaster 22:17, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

The book "Caucasian Knot" that you weirdly call "Chorbajian" is a first-class neutral source complied by French and American academics. If you can see from these talk pages that the book's section on early history was endorsed by Thomas de Waal, WP's primary source on this topic. "Caucasian Knot" is just one of secondary sources as you can see that is used to back up primary sources. Secondly, no attempts are made to interpret primary sources. Primary sources are used moderately and in combination with secondary and tertiary sources per WP's rules. All your accusations are not supported by anything. You were warned by administrators that you were behaving disruptively, please take this warning seriously. Dehr (talk) 23:11, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I am “za” as Russians say :))))) to re-build the version of the text that User:zimmarod wrote about, I think we should do some work on adding more references. Not too many. Understand me correctly I want to do this when after the deleted passages are rebuilt. We should rebuild them first. There are disruptive editors around tryig to torpedo this work. Grandmaster is one of them. The director of Wikipedia should get rid of Grandmaster. Also I want to see Karabakh in a wider regional context. Uzer:zimmarod’s rebuilding is good enough and as I saying we should use it first but placing Karabakh in the context of regional and global politics and geoeconomics is a good idea?Sprutt (talk) 23:49, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Good. Let's then sum up those points or elements of the proposed rewrite that need improvement, addition, deletion in other words - modification. "Wider regional context was one suggestion," Gandzasar and Arranshahiks was the other, am I missing something? Winterbliss (talk) 18:23, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Ok, the map that Dehr found, almost forgot. Winterbliss (talk) 18:24, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I like that map. Dehr (talk) 01:54, 8 March 2012 (UTC) In the previous chapter I like the mention of alternative names for Karabakh "Other names used to denote Nagorno Karabakh in history include: Lesser Armenia,[16][17][18] Lesser Syunik,[19] and Armenia Interior.[20]." I think we can use that as well. And there was a chapter in the text about culture of Artsakh or something - I can't find it. It seemed to be a reference to a standalone article but we may drop a few general sentences about culture and architecture and place the text on churches and monasteries built in high middle ages in that subchapter. Dehr (talk) 01:58, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I think culture is better to leave alone just as a link but I am open to other suggections. What I am getting from the discussion is that the High Middle Ages, Late Middle Ages and Demographics is proposed to be taken from the old text with some revisions. I - as the new "owner" of previously posted-and-deleted changes or someone else can sum up these revisions and suggestion the final version of updates. Zimmarod (talk) 21:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I will support the high middle ages, late middle ages and demographics chapters from this version of the earlier version of this article. I have a few propositions though. Medieval Khachen was part of the Bagratidt Armenia and Zakarid Armenia. Was it a province or a semi-independent or autonomous land? I would add some of such research. Mongols were there too beginning from 1226, then they vanished, and Tamerlan came from Central Asia. These times after Tamerlan are very obscure for Armenia. These geopolitics it would be a good addition. Sources that we have now are good, including the Caucasian Know, Hewsen, etc, but we can include some Armenian-based authors. Ther is a good book called Արցախի մելիքությունները և մելիքակական տները. A lot of good material there about meliks of Artsakh and their relations with khans and shahs and Russian tsars, etc. Hablabar (talk) 01:56, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

The alternative names for Karabakh are referenced well as mentioned by Dehr but I would add Pavel Shafirov's letter of 14 sept 1733 from George Burnutian's book to back up the Soviet-era compilation about Armenian-Russian relations. Zimmarod (talk) 23:03, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Shafirov's letter is in the first Burnutian volume not in the second. Zimmarod (talk) 23:05, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

For clarity I made it a special section in these talk pages where the three sub-sections in the article are discussed.Winterbliss (talk) 02:47, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

The Zimmarod's version of the article shall be restored especially the medieval section and demographics. I leave it at the discretion of other participants to determine how it should be modified. Oliveriki (talk) 22:01, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Okie dokie, good deal. Zimmarod (talk) 22:22, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

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CONSENSUS. I am summing it up now. Consensus is for development of the article using new texts and some previously deleted paragraphs, which were re-owned, verified, and checked for accuracy and validity of references. The consensus involved User:Nocturnal781, User:Winterbliss, User:Dehr, User:Oliveriki, User:Sprutt, User:Hablabar, User:Zimmarod and tentatively User:Vacio. The consensus building exercise took many months and most issues were extensively discussed on talk pages, including opponents such as Grandmaster. Winterbliss (talk) 03:11, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

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Evidence of User:Grandmaster's coordinated editing in English wiki

Of course we are here to discuss the topics in friendly and relaxed atmosphere. However, new evidence of Grandmaster's canvassing and off-wiki coordination of edits in English wiki are coming to light. It is known that Gransmaster was coordinating editing of a large group of Azerbaijani user in Russian wiki from here information on meta-wiki and here [10] by being the head of 26 Baku Commissars. But take a look at this curious exchange - [11], [12], which are requests of off-wiki communication between Grandmaster and Mursel (who misquoted several references in this article). Mursel replying to Grandmaster, and Grandmaster confirming that he e-mailed Mursel back: "Salam kardas necesen? Senin e-mail ne dir kardas, bir suzum var sene?? Sağ ol. Bu səhifənin sağ tərəfində E-mail this user linkını basıb mənə yaza bilərsən. Grandmaster 14:55, 11 March 2006 (UTC). Bro your e-mail doest work, it says you havent confirmed it yet. If you cant get it fixed mail me at farhad87@hotmail.com. I'll mail you my question to you there. Leave a message here if you have sended the mail. Hi. I forgot to enable it, it is OK now. I've already e-mailed you. Grandmaster 17:00, 12 March 2006 (UTC)." Now it becomes clear why User:Neftchi suddenly bothered to change his user name to User:Mursel: in such case signatures are removed in old correspondences, and it becomes unclear at first blush who communicated with whom. But every communication is stored in caches and can be invoked if necessary. That's so much for calling other accounts "suspicious." Winterbliss (talk) 05:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

That's funny. Thanks for the good laugh. For your information, emailing each other is not against the rules, that is why the wiki accounts have email feature in the first place. And it was not against the rules 6 (!) years ago, when the communication you refer to happened. Also, if you scroll further down, you can see that Armenian editors also emailed me. Does it prove anything? At least I'm not rolling new accounts time after time once the old ones got blocked for sockery, like some do. You can trace the entire history of my contributions back to 2005. Grandmaster 12:46, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I was obliged to remove User:Tuscumbia's edits since good or bad edits of BANNED users are to be canceled. Mursell's edits were removed earlier since they were not made in good faith. Please continue your discussion and do not engage in edit war. This is not the final version. Zimmarod (talk) 00:05, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Please do not ruin an established version of the article until consensus. The recent revert has numerous problematic issues, most notably, the removal of the NKR's unrecognized status and a POV statement of "original, historical and most enduring name for Nagorno-Karabakh". Other than that, there are WP:PRIMARY issue of The History of the Caucasian Albanians by Movsēs Dasxuranc'i, replacement of the neutral landscape with the Gandzasar Monastery picture and insertion of other POV pictures, etc. Brandmeister t 00:31, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The previous version had many more problematic issues and they were discussed above. Please do not restore the edits of banned users. Come to consensus and please do not engage in an edit war. Hablabar (talk) 02:06, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

What I see is that User:Brandmeister was banned from AA area for a year, and now when his ban is lifted he is piping hot with WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude. I don't see why Hablabar is an SPA and why that matters. "Replacement of the neutral landscape with the Gandzasar Monastery picture" - I found nothing like that in the article. There's a pic of the village of Vank it seems and the Gandzasar mon's pic was there from the start. And what is "neutral landscape" to begin with? Winterbliss (talk) 04:42, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Protected on the right version

OK, kids, here's the deal.

I protected this page for a week to force discussion over a 24k change that was being batted back and forth. It was an edit literally from October 9, 2011; Oliveriki simply reverted all the way back to that, with the edit summary "rest references". That alone warrants reversion.

Pretty much no discussion took place.

So, the protection runs its course, and what happens? Two different editors immediately put back that exact same edit, saying "undoing banned user" (which is absolutely not true) or, even more outrageous, "see talk page". Really? Do you think I'm an idiot? WHAT DISCUSSION? This is by far the worst bad faith editing I have ever seen on the NK articles, and I've been watching these for SEVEN YEARS. I would summarily block you all if I weren't so damn lazy.

Usually protection is on the "wrong version", that is to say, whatever version it was when we saw it needed to be protected. But in this case, there is one version that has been worked on for six months, and there is the version that was an edit from six months ago that three different accounts (I dare not say "people" at this point, as puppetry is afoot) in FOUR HOURS used the worst reasoning I've ever seen to put back this edit. The right version is decidedly Brandmeister's, and it will remain there until you children either show you can work together, and a sockpuppet investigation is carried out, which I will start now. --Golbez (talk) 04:33, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

And let me be clear: Maybe the better version is the one from October 9, 2011. But that doesn't mean you come in here and put it in with no edit summary, and then edit war to keep it because it needs to have a chance, and then have the gall to say "take it to the talk page". --Golbez (talk) 05:22, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Golbex, I just undid the edits of the banned user Tuscumbia. Technically, it has nothing to do with my earlier restoration and re-"owning" of the erased texts. The fact that the erased text appeared as default is just a technical detail. The better version is the one from October 9, 2011 but for the purpose of my actions this was immaterial. Hope u understand what I am saying. Zimmarod (talk) 19:46, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I protected the article to force discussion. None took place, and when protection expired, you immediately resumed the edit war. Frankly, I should have issued a block right then. I am not making a statement on the question of it a topic ban warrants a blanket reversion, as it does not matter, two wrongs don't cancel out. --Golbez (talk) 04:25, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Notice

There is a pending AE request related to this article. T. Canens (talk) 10:50, 26 February 2012 (UTC)