Talk:Nancy Wake

Untitled

I should like to draw your attention to the error of Nancy Wake joining the escape network of Albert Guerisse.I think that the lady,herself,would be a bit narked at the mention of it.She joined Capt.Ian Garrow's escape network, Guerisse was not even on the scene,at the time,and did not take over,until,Oct 1941,when Garrow was captured by the Milice. Nancy Wake was principal in effecting Ian Garrow's escape from imprisonment,in 1942. REGARDS Alexander Garrow alexandergarrow@yahoo.co.uk

George Cross

Why is Wake not on This list? Dunc|☺ 14:23, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

A Google search for Nancy Wake produces a lot of website about her, none of which mention her receiving the George Cross. (Example.) Also there are a lot of sites about the George Cross which say that only THREE women won the GC during the War. I am going to delete the reference to her getting the Goerge croos as it seems to be an obvious mistake. If anyone can find any evidence that she really did get a GC then please undo my edit, but cite your source.Richard75 22:12, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Um. Cos she didn't win the GC. That might be a good reason. Wallie (talk) 11:15, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

questions

I have not been able to find on wikipedia, any detailed accounts of the resistance actions, howmuch they took German attention, during the war, any anti-resistance missions the germans sent etc. which I think would be interesting, because it gives a feel for life under occupation and how that related to the allied war effort. I'm not an expert on this, but are there any decent pages onwiki that do exist?

No, there isn't much detailed information on the operations of the French Resistance on Wikipedia. I suspect there's probably a pile of it on the French-language Wikipedia though. --Robert Merkel 00:08, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

secondly, I've read that nancy wake interviewed hitler in 1933. any truth to this? it does sound like one of those strange hjistorical things.

Nationality

Nancy Wake is clearly a New Zealander, particularly as she was born there. However, as there is some dispute as to whether she calls herself an Australian, which has yet to be proven, it may be best to leave her nationality out of the article. Most artciles about Nancy Wake (other than those originating from Australia) simply mention she was born in New Zealand, which says it all, really. Wallie (talk) 18:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It is certainly worth listing Australia as one of her allegiances, and I have added it; she did spend much of her life living in that country. I am unsure whether she ever became an Australian citizen. She stood in Australian federal elections; if Australian law prohibits non-citizens from becoming MPs (as New Zealand law does) then that would be a reasonable indication that she was a citizen.-gadfium 20:49, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

OK. Answer me one question. How come she possesses a New Zealand passport? (I don't know much about MPs, but I always thought that you needed to be a citizen before you are issued with a passport.) Wallie (talk) 18:42, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Please note the German version. It does not mention the bit about Australian nationality:

Nancy Grace Augusta Wake (* 30. August 1912 in Roseneath, Wellington, Neuseeland) ist die höchstdekorierte, weibliche Militärangehörige der Alliierten. Während des Zweiten Weltkrieges war sie britische Saboteurin und Widerstandskämpferin in Frankreich.

Nor does the French version:

Nancy Wake (1912-), également connue par ses mariages sous les noms de Nancy Fiocca et de Nancy Forward, est une figure de la Résistance alliée en France, pendant la Seconde Guerre mondiale. Sous le nom de guerre d’« Hélène » et le code opérationnel WITCH, elle fut notamment en 1944 courrier du réseau FREELANCE de John Farmer « Hubert », qui se distingua en Auvergne.

Un téléfilm anglais de 1988 porte son nom et raconte son histoire.

Wallie (talk) 18:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Why did you stop reading there? If you'd read on you'd have also noted this listed in the reference section, [1]. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 22:57, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I was refering to Wikipedia articles in other languages. You are quoting an Amazon commercial in French. There is even an American article which says she was born in Australia. People will say all sorts of things! Wallie (talk) 17:39, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I realise that you were referring to Wikipedia articles in other languages. I was merely pointing out that you had quite clearly failed to read the French article properly. The book I referred to was the French language version of Nancy Wake's autobiography. I would guess that the reason a lot of articles only mention she was born in New Zealand is that they have used the NZEdge article as their source, indeed if you had studied them a little more closely you would have observed that many were in fact reprints of the NZEdge article. If you perform a google search the NZEdge article turns out to be one of the first hits to be listed. It appears to have become something of a standard reference. This serves as an illustration of how easily misinformation and propaganda can be spread using the internet. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 12:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Dubious

I'd be happy with the compromise version of the article which begins

Nancy Grace Augusta Wake AC, GM (born August 30 1912) is the Allies' most decorated servicewoman...

Comment: Is she the allies most decorated servicewomen of WW2? I would doubt it. A Soviet would probably hold this honor. I note that they have removed a similar comment about Audie Murphy, even though he probably is the most highly decorated American. Wallie (talk) 09:06, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

However, to state she is Australian in the lead paragraph, despite her birth in New Zealand (which doesn't appear to be disputed), and her keeping a New Zealand passport and considering herself a New Zealander (sourced by the NZEdge reference), appears to be POV. Clearly she has a connection with Australia - she lived there for most of her life. As discussed above, it is unclear whether she became an Australian citizen. She is notable for her actions in Europe, not Australia. Her actions in Australia alone, as a failed political candidate, would not warrant an article in Wikipedia.-gadfium 20:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Normally nationality is associated with a place of birth. Einstein is considered to be German, as he was born there. He does have a Swiss and American passport, having been made a citizen of these two countries, and living there. However, I have never heard of Einstein being described as a "Swiss". Nancy Wake should not be described as an "Australian", just because one person is determined to describe her as such. Indeed, this person appears to be able to conduct edit wars, and at the same time describes others who disagree with his approach as "vandals". To me calling her an "Australian war heroine" is deeply offensive. Even people like Alvin York and Audie Murphy are not described in this extreme way. Wallie (talk) 09:22, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I would just like to say that evidence suggests Wake was in fact an Australian citizen. You must be a citizen to run for Parliament in Australia, and Wake was awarded a Companion of the Order of Australia; if she was not a citizen the AC would have been an hononary award, which it was not (see [2]). Abraham, B.S. (talk) 12:48, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

That's good enough for me - I'll remove the tag. I note that Peter FitzSimons suggests that the reason Australia didn't give her any honours before this was simply because she had not fought with the Australian armed services - see Nancy Wake: A Biography of Our Greatest War Hero page 284.-gadfium 20:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Heroine

C'mon. Have a look at this about Noel Chavasse. [3]. The guy to my mind did far more than Nancy Wake and is not described as a hero. Another is Wallenburg. [4]. Again, he did more, to my mind, and yet he is not a "hero". Please save this term for fictional people like Batman. It has no place in this sort of article. Wallie (talk) 08:59, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe “hero” is a word that might easily be used to describe Chavasse. You are of course entitled to disagree, however I don’t think you’d need to look that hard to find instances when the word is used as a description. It’s POV I guess. However in the case of Nancy Wake, who was a civilian at the beginning of the war, I believe it to be appropriate. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 20:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I would agree with you that both Chavasse and Wake could be described as "heroes". My point is that this is a word that it not usually used in an encyclopedic article. The reader can look at the person's achievements and judge for themselves. Similarly, persons who you or I may consider as such are not described as "villains". Wallie (talk) 17:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

There is so much about the present Wikipedia Nancy Wake article that is not encyclopedic, I wouldn't worry too much about this one little thing. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 12:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Most Highly Decorated Allied Servicewoman in WW2?

This is highly debatable. Woman like this one are more highly decorated. [5]. The are quite a few other alled, including Soviet women who did far more than did Nancy, and were more highly decorated, some even earning the "Hero of the Soviet Union" award, which is their highest and equivalent to the Medal of Honor. Wallie (talk) 17:41, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Fair point. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 21:59, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. There are links all over the place that suggest that she is. I am unsure about this, and rather think she is probably not. There were a lot of women who took part in WW2, and to qualify the value of the medal collection to come up with number one would be a big ask. Wallie (talk) 17:49, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Nancy Wake is a New Zealander

It is clear that Nancy still considers herself a New Zealander, and was born there. Probably New Zealand does not deserve this honor, as it has never officially recognized Nancy's deeds. I think this is more a government thing rather than the NZ people. Nancy retains warm feelings towards NZ, which given the slackness of the government there seems a bit strange. The same applies to Australia, which always considered Nancy to be a New Zealander. More recently, Australia has recognized Nancy, which is a generous move. She did reside in Australia for a long time. France and Britain were quick to award her medals. Wallie (talk) 06:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

If we’re talking about this 1994 article that no one appears to have seen, then I don’t think things are very clear at all. Given the circumstances at the time, she was talking to a New Zealand journalist, I’ve little doubt that the journalist in question directed the conversation along certain lines that might appeal to a New Zealand audience. And although she may have said she was still a New Zealander, it would have been said as a matter of fact, and in the spirit of the occasion. I’m fairly sure she did not say that she considered herself a New Zealander, at least to the same level that she would consider herself to be an Australian. I base this on the evidence of the literature, which should hold more credibility than a few newspaper articles. The often quoted NZEdge article has clearly been written with a certain viewpoint in mind. I’m not saying that the writers have been intentionally misleading, I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt. It would seem likely though that they have misinterpreted Nancy’s comments in 1994 to suit their own purposes. Perhaps the original author of the newspaper article is partly to blame, or perhaps the NZEdge writers just allowed nationalistic pride to cloud their judgement. The Wikipedia edit as it is now is poorly written, it’s clumsy, gibberish and needs to be improved. Newspaper articles are certainly not infallible, and are best avoided as main sources for important information. The compromise edit which I proposed, employing the descriptor ‘New Zealand born Australian’, has precedent on Wikipedia. For example, Maurice Wilkins, Roger Donaldson. It allows New Zealand a bit of glory, without all of the distractions.

It is still only conjecture the Australian government considered Nancy Wake a New Zealander, no matter how many times the claim is repeated. Would you care to provide any verifiable proof for such a statement? More plausible reasons for her not receiving an honour from the Australian government is that they did not think she qualified as she did not serve with the Australian forces, or certain parties did not like her outspokenness. However the New Zealand Government’s position appears to be very clear. Calls for Nancy Wake to be officially recognised by New Zealand have thus far been rejected by the New Zealand Labour Government, citing her ‘extremely tenuous’ connection with New Zealand as the reason she has not been honoured, [6]. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 20:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi. This is not about "allowing New Zealand a bit of reflected glory". It is about getting as close to the facts as possible, even if some New Zealander or others are upset about it. It sounds like you do want to achieve the correct wording as I do. Don't worry. Someone will come along and change it all, well after we are both dead and gone, to something else again, which neither or us would like! Wallie (talk) 17:58, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm fairly confident that the literature, when studied and reflected upon in a sensible and fair minded manner, supports my stance on this, not yours. I don't see why this would be any less true years from now than it is at present. It is interesting that the NZEdge article considered it appropriate to include speculation as to why Nancy Wake was not awarded an Australian honour, yet made no mention of the reasons the New Zealand Labour Government has cited for not honouring her. I wonder why? In the end, the truth will prevail. As you have not provided any sort of compelling reason as to why my suggested compromise edit should not be used, I now give notice that I intend to revert back to it very soon from now, if not immediately. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 12:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Ernest. I didn't realize that I had a "stance". I am quite open minded, and am always willing to update my knowledge (and change my mind), if new verifiable facts come to light. As mentioned, I do agree with many of the points you make. Her whole life needs to be taken in context. Notwithstanding, most people tend to define themselves as to where they were born. Wallie (talk) 13:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Your last comment only has validity in that most people also tend to have grown up in the country of their birth. I'd challenge you to see how many people of note you can name who have lived for only a few years in their particularly country of birth, yet define themselves as belonging to that country. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 21:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

No takers as yet I see. I'll revert to my preferred version of the edit, but I am very happy to discuss the matter further if there is still disagreement. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 07:49, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:GeorgeMedalRibbon.jpg

The image Image:GeorgeMedalRibbon.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --01:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no image copyright problem - the bot is responding to erroneous information. The image is NOT being used under "fair use". The copyright reads: The Crown copyright protected material may be reproduced free of charge in any format or media without requiring specific permission. and hence does NOT require fair use rationales. Pdfpdf (talk) 04:53, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Nationality 2

Let's leave the nationality out. I think she is British. Otherwise, she would not be living there. It is clear that she qualifies as a New Zealander having being born there. Wallie (talk) 14:15, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

No, let's not. It is important and needs to be included. I fail to comprehend the logic behind your conclusion that she is British. In fact you appear to have been all over the place in your arguments on this particular topic. I think one of your difficulties may be that you are confusing citizenship and nationality. You appear to be using a legal definition of the concept of nationality. It is correct that Nancy Wake was born in NZ, so it is probable that she holds NZ citizenship, so in that regard it would be correct to say that she is a New Zealander. However citizenship is not necessarily an identical concept to nationality. Nationality allows for a degree of self determination. As it seems that Nancy has not lived permanently in NZ for any length of time since she left in 1914, and it is clear that she presents herself as Australian in the various books written about her, as well as being regarded as Australian by colleagues during her time in France during the War, it would seem only appropriate that she be identified as such in any credible article about her life. If you read any dictionary or dictionary of biography you should note that the nationality of a person is almost always mentioned, usually at the very beginning of any entry. It is important and should not be glossed over as you have suggested here, and indeed in other Wikipedia articles you have contributed to. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 07:22, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Nationality is contentious in this case. She is clearly a New Zealander, as she was born there, and could be French or British too, even Australian. Wallie (talk) 17:51, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Ernest, what is your problem? On every article i've seen you edit you seem to be pushing a hugely anti-NZ campaign. I'm not saying you're wrong every time, but all you do on here is remove any implication that anyone has ever been a New Zealander, and considering this is all you seem to do it makes you a lot less credible and a lot more POVish than your carefully crafted replies imply. I'd like an explanation as to what your problem is. Matty (talk) 06:06, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Anything to chime in yet? Matty (talk) 07:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Not really ,except to say that my suggested version of the edit for the intro into the Nancy Wake article referred to her as a "New Zealand-born Australian", which I thought was a fair compromise. Unfortunately someone has reverted it, I'll change it back now. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 11:36, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

No. It is not a compromise. It says she is is Australian. There is no proof of this. There is clear proof she is a New Zealander, as she was born there. Wallie (talk) 08:51, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Nationality

She is clearly New Zealand and maybe others. As these others cannot be established, then leave it out! Wallie (talk) 10:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Allegiance

This relates to the Service/Branch. This is clear: France and United Kingdom. Wallie (talk) 10:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Australian?

No proof of this. Wallie (talk) 08:45, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

How is there no proof that she is an Australian? Wake spent the majority of her early life in Australia, as well as most of her post-Second World War life. She twice stood for election into Australian Federal Parliament and was awarded a Companion of the Order of Australia. She has spent many more of her years in Australia than New Zealand, so how is she not a New Zealand-born Australian? Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 11:04, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Wallie, I can see that this is causing you stress and that upsets me. Wikipedia editing should be a fun experience, but you seem to invite more than your fair share of conflict. Nancy Wake probably does hold NZ citizenship, even though she left in 1914 at the age of one, and has not lived there since. However she is also an Australian citizen. She grew up there, and when she was not in Europe it is the place that she returned to. She also ran for parliament in Australia, and was made a Companion of the order of Australia. It is shameful that she was not honoured far earlier by the Australian government. However I think it highly unlikely this apparent snubbing was because she was considered a NZer, no matter what the NZEdge article would have you believe. She was also denied an honour by the recent Labour Government in NZ, who cited her only "tenuous" connection with NZ as the reason for not honouring her. If the National Government are true to their word then she should be in line for a NZ honour very soon.

I've had a read of all three books written about her, including her own autobiography. The most recent one by Peter FitzSimons is the most readable, and is most responsible for bringing her to the attention of NZers. As recently as a decade ago she was relatively unknown in NZ. The Fitzsimons book also delves into her Kiwi origins far more than the other books, including her own autobiography. It is quite apparent to me on reading the literature that the correct thing is to call her an Australia. It is also the respectful thing to do. I believe calling her a New Zealand born Australian is fair, and it acknowledges her Kiwi beginnings. To suppress any mention of her nationality, as you want to do, is one way of dealing with this dispute. My problem with that solution is that it implies that there really is a genuine dispute, when I don't believe there should be. As an act of good faith, given our other disagreements, I will leave it neutral. We can then discuss a better wording at a latter date. Perhaps Nancy Wake may have received her NZ honour by then, so that will need to be added to the article at the same time as a new introduction. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 11:44, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Here's some Kiwi cheekiness for you. Nancy Wake even gets a mention in the New Zealand edition of the Lonely Planet series of travel guides. This book would be used by thousands of visitors to New Zealand. [7] Ernest the Sheep (talk) 10:57, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

You want proof she's Australian? You got it. She was awarded the Companionship of the Order of Australia on 22 February 2004. "The award recognises the significant contribution and commitment of Nancy Wake, stemming from her outstanding actions in wartime, in encouraging community appreciation and understanding of the past sacrifices made by Australian men and women in times of conflict, and to a lasting legacy of peace". [8]. The award was not honorary, which it would have to have been if she was not a citizen of Australia. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 12:41, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

And of course she was American too because she was also awarded the United States of America Medal of Freedom Moriori (talk) 04:01, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

The Order of Australia is simply not awardable to non Australian citizens except as an honorary award, and Nancy Wake's AC was NOT honorary. Ergo, she was an Australian. Whatever else she may have been awarded does not detract one iota from her Australianness. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 11:28, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Her story inspired a novel

Can this be added to the article? Her story inspired Sebastian Faulks to write his 1999 novel Charlotte Gray, which was then turned into a movie of the same name. BBC obituary reference with this information: [9]. 81.156.125.251 (talk) 11:27, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Obituaries

Some obituaries which might be incorporated into the article:

• The Independent
• BBC
• The Guardian

Timing

In the Wartime service and Special Operations Executive section I read that:

• In 1943 she was the Gestapo's most-wanted person.

• In December 1943 the network was betrayed and she wad to flee Marseille.

• On 16 October 1943 Gestapo executed her husband.

Reading, it seems that her husband was killed before she departed. Or not?