Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine

Link to most recent closed and archived RfC: Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 11#RfC on Western support to Ukraine

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The heading above is a link to the RfC: Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 11#RfC on Western support to Ukraine, closed 30 December 2022.

See also earlier RfCs: Talk:2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine/Archive_9#RfC on "Supported by" in the infobox for Ukraine, closed 9 June 2022; and, Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?: closed 6 March 2022. All RfCs were closed with "no consensus". In the most recent RfC, the closer made the following statement:

Also, can we not do this again in a couple months? There is WP:NODEADLINE, and there is sure to be plenty of academic studies and expert writings that will provide excellent context and sourcing for what, exactly, should be listed in that infobox parameter. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:04, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Cinderella157 (talk) 06:13, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merge sections "Kyiv and northern front" and "North-eastern front"?

There doesn't seem to be much reason for treating initial attacks at Chernihiv and Sumy as a separate front, as the Russian forces which did achieved breakthrough there, then proceeded to advance towards Kyiv from eastern side. So I would suggest merging "Kyiv and northern front" and "North-eastern front" sections into single "Northern front" section.--Staberinde (talk) 10:20, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

The origination points for the two fronts were very different; Kyiv was attacked out of Belarus, while the 'North-eastern' front originated on the eastern Ukraine border with Russia. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:38, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Not really, Chernihiv was attacked from Belarus too.--Staberinde (talk) 09:16, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Not sure how you are reading this geography for Oblasts which are adjacent in Ukraine. Are you talking about the main spearheads of the invasion (there were 4 of them according to the international press at the time of the initial invasion), or are you talking about the order of battle for the individual spearheads of the invasion? Do you have any reliable sources for your comments? ErnestKrause (talk) 15:14, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Chernihiv was attacked from Gomel, Belarus, not sure what's the confusion here about. Anyway, the question is, should western and eastern axis of Russian Kyiv offensive be actually treated in separate sections or not. It is a fairly basic editorial question. I don't see much point in separate two paragraph "North-eastern front" section. Size wise it fits fine in "Kyiv and northern front" section, and also fits logically as that section already includes general introduction: Russian efforts to capture Kyiv included a probative spearhead on 24 February, from Belarus south along the west bank of the Dnipro River, apparently to encircle the city from the west, supported by two separate axes of attack from Russia along the east bank of the Dnipro: the western at Chernihiv, and the eastern at Sumy. These were likely intended to encircle Kyiv from the north-east and east.--Staberinde (talk) 17:11, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Support Seems like a good idea. I popped on the talk page in order to start a thread about summary style actually.

Really, I don’t see any reason to treat them separately. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 20:01, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

You are both apparently opposed to the various diagrams and maps which support these 2 prongs of the invasion, along with the prose concerning the separate order of battle for each of these fronts. Are you both stating that you wish to delete and eradicate all of the reliable sources currently in the article which state that there were two fronts in the initial invasion in the north and the north-east, and that you wish to eradicate all the maps and figures which support both of those spearheads? ErnestKrause (talk) 15:15, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Adding NATO support for Ukraine

I propose to add NATO support for Ukraine. DitorWiki (talk) 12:19, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

See FAQ. Slatersteven (talk) 12:21, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

See FAQ. Cinderella157 (talk) 13:59, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

As the FAQ notes, there was previously no consensus, and the lack of consensus may change over time.

I would support adding United States at a minimum.

A citation that I have post-dating the prior non-consensus is an academic text from Routledge, China and Eurasian Powers in a Multipolar World 2.0: Security, Diplomacy, Economy, and Cyberspace (March 31, 2023) which states, "[T]he United States and the West have supported Kyiev by offering military equipment, accommodating its financial needs, providing intelligence, and imposing sanctions against Russia." p. 29.

The closer of that discussion noted, "Also, can we not do this again in a couple months? There is WP:NODEADLINE, and there is sure to be plenty of academic studies and expert writings that will provide excellent context and sourcing for what, exactly, should be listed in that infobox parameter. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:04, 30 December 2022 (UTC)"

Indeed, it is now more than a couple months, and the academic sourcing referring to US "support" in explicit terms has begun to percolate. JArthur1984 (talk) 02:41, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Do we normally list where belligerents get there supplies? Moxy- 03:14, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Not a germane question as you’ve phrased it. You’ve only noted one form of support mentioned by this RS, when there is also financial support, support in the form of sanctions, and the support via the provision of intelligence. JArthur1984 (talk) 03:32, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Do we normally list financial support , intelligence sharing or sanctions in an infobox anywhere? Moxy- 03:48, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, see for example Yemeni civil war (2014–present). JArthur1984 (talk) 12:26, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

You win: the USA supports Ukraine. But that’s the wrong argument because supporters still don’t belong under “Belligerents” for all

of the same reasons articulated before.  —Michael Z. 04:42, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

My support is not for listing US as a belligerent, but to list Ukraine as Supported by USA. JArthur1984 (talk) 12:27, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

What, you’re saying you want to add Ukraine to the infobox? The proponents of this change need to be more specific about the text changes they want if they’re not obvious.  —Michael Z. 16:56, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

No. Ukraine is already in the Infobox. My view is that the infobox should include "Supported by: United States" JArthur1984 (talk) 13:18, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Which academic sourcing? Cinderella157 (talk) 05:42, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Scottish asked for a re-evaluation, and the situation of USA supporting Ukraine with blood and treasure remains the same at this time as it did in February of 2022 last year when the invasion began. Although Biden said that he will defend Taiwan against Chinese aggression with blood and treasure, Biden has significantly insisted that he will only provide treasure and supplies to Ukraine and 'no boots on the ground' to Ukraine. That's a significant contrast for Biden to make and its direct implications should be followed in the Infobox here. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:00, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Are we talking about NATO, or the USA,? Slatersteven (talk) 15:03, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

USA is a signatory of NATO. Same for NATO; the only appreciable change on this since last year is Finland, because if Finland is now attacked or invaded by Russia then NATO (and the USA) are open to send boots on the ground and planes in the air to defend Finland as needed. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:11, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

That is not an answer, A number of nations are part of NATO and have not sent arms, a number of nations have sent arms who are not part of NATO. So I ask again, are we discussing NATO or the USA? Slatersteven (talk) 15:14, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

It is a direct answer. NATO is a military alliance which includes the USA. Under the terms of this military alliance, the signatories decide which signatory nations will do what in response to any military challenges to that military alliance. This is foreign policy 101 in case you have not studied it in your readings on this topic. Since Ukraine is not a member of NATO, then it cannot invoke the conditions and responses of a military alliance which are specified by NATO. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:20, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Then we can't add it, as that implies nations who are not sending aid are. Slatersteven (talk) 15:24, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

OP suggested NATO with no analysis. My comment citing an RS was that I would support at least Supported by: United States. JArthur1984 (talk) 13:16, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

We do not discuss multiple ideas at once, it confuses matters. Discussion needs to be focused. Slatersteven (talk) 13:22, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

• Comment This is now digressing into WP:FORUM. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:54, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I applaud everyone very much for finally coming to compromise and listing NATO as supporting Ukraine 😊. No need to ever obfuscate the truth ✌️2603:9001:2B09:9A93:342D:6555:F6AC:F09B (talk) 17:27, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Ahh, those cheeky bastards seem to have taken that off. Shame on the editors, the moderators, whoever is responsible. 2603:9001:7500:3242:B4A3:53F8:5A73:F317 (talk) 00:22, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Personal attacks are not acceptable. Cinderella157 (talk) 06:32, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

meh, eat schitt luzer. 😙🧃 2603:9001:2B09:9A93:1046:8E99:D284:8224 (talk) 16:42, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

meh, eat schitt luzer. 😙🧃 2603:9001:2B09:9A93:1046:8E99:D284:8224 (talk) 16:42, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Personal attacks are not acceptable, plus, you're not funny neither you know how to write apparently. SnoopyBird (talk) 16:46, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Wasn’t trying to be funny. I merely told the person to “eat schitt”. 2603:9001:7500:3242:FCCF:E04F:C45C:73D9 (talk) 17:51, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

still, personal attacks are against the rules, plus, you really look like an 5 year old child. SnoopyBird (talk) 17:54, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Also, see wp:consensus. It should not have been added, as there is no consensus to add it. Slatersteven (talk) 09:17, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Well let’s get the consensus going then, what’s the holdup? 2603:9001:2B09:9A93:1046:8E99:D284:8224 (talk) 16:43, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

People saying no. Slatersteven (talk) 16:51, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

And why is that? Is it their state of denial? 2603:9001:7500:3242:FCCF:E04F:C45C:73D9 (talk) 17:49, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Or, is it their fear that once it becomes public, the Russian government, through this wikipage would actually use it as legitimacy to send the world into WWIII considering it’s UNDENIABLE that NATO is supporting Ukraine militarily AND economically? 2603:9001:7500:3242:FCCF:E04F:C45C:73D9 (talk) 17:53, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

I doubt Russia needs Wikipedia as a casus belli. Slatersteven (talk) 11:37, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

As to why they have said not, read the copious reasons given every time this is raised. Slatersteven (talk) 11:38, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Rename

The Russian invasion of Ukraine began in the winter of 2014, in the same article there is an exclusively large-scale invasion of Ukraine that began in the winter of 2022. Therefore, my proposal to rename the article to:

"Large-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022 – )"--Yasnodark (talk) 11:28, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Please see the various RMs in the past, including the most recent one. InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:24, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Building bridges between the two main sibling articles

It has occurred to me that it might be worth some effort on the part of editors to increase the relation between the two main sibling pages for the Ukrainian war and the Russian invasion articles. One possible path might be to add sections to each article about the relevance of the Russian plans since 2014 to build a 'land-bridge' to Crimea, after Russia had occupied Crimea in 2014. There are significant numbers of RS for Russia's early plans to want to do this since 2014, and it appears that the current Russian invasion has accomplished some measure of those goals to establish a land bridge to Crimea. Support/oppose comments from other editors if possible. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:35, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

US/UK special forces in Ukraine

I will preface this by saying that I have read the RfC about support for Ukraine, although I do disagree with it. Please do not refer me to it. However, with the recent leaks from the Pentagon, several reliable sources have stated that American and British special forces are present in Ukraine. I think that this is an extraordinary circumstance that would allow this to be changed, and to put the US and UK in the infobox. GLORIOUSEXISTENCE (talk) 01:28, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Based on previous such discussions, if it turned out half the British army was deployed in Ukraine there'd still be no consensus on adding anything more than "Supplied by: UK".

For whatever reason there are a significant number of editors who refuse to agree with adding a "Supported by:" section for Ukraine on this page or that for the wider Russia-Ukraine conflict. It's unlikely that anything short of an outright declaration of war by a party involved is going to shift that, I'm afraid. TheGlaswegian (talk) 02:10, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Technically Russia had not made a formal declaration of war, so Russia should be removed from the Infobox. Juxlos (talk) 03:06, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Read wp:agf a,nd wep:soap. Slatersteven (talk) 14:52, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm not saying anyone opposed to such a change is acting in bad faith; far from it, many are rightfully concerned about the integrity of a highly disputed page about a major current event. However, what I mean to point out is that the endlessly repeating debates on this matter will continue to be totally paralysed by lack of consensus until something of extreme, unavoidable significance occurs. Until then, it's barely worth the effort of bringing up new evidence every time it crops up. TheGlaswegian (talk) 16:02, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

New evidence of what, what were these special forces doing? This is the issue. The irony is...well go back over the archives and look at what the irony is. Slatersteven (talk) 16:22, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. This I believe is a fundamental piece of information that should modify the wikibox. Mehrashehra (talk) 02:58, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

The first source states The document does not say where the forces are located or what they are doing. The second source states: It is unclear what activities the special forces may have been engaged in or whether the numbers of personnel have been maintained at this level. While I doubt they are/were there for a holiday (though some chicken stranglers and snake eaters might consider a trip to Ukraine a holiday) the two reports tell us nothing of substance. One could reasonably speculate that they might be there for close protection since this is one role of the SASR particularly. What makes these reports particularly extrodinary? But, but, but ... they were top-secret reports, I didn't hear somebody say. Well dip me in green paint and call me a soldier, isn't that what secret squirrel military types do - keep secrets, particularly if they were/are protecting a high profile person (or is that Animal House). There are sections in the articles (and sub-articles) for foreign involvement (see Russian invasion of Ukraine#Foreign involvement). So, while the secion may not be called "supported by" (not a particularly good heading for an article section) that is quite clearly what it is about. To that extent, it is factually incorrect to state For whatever reason there are a significant number of editors who refuse to agree with adding a "Supported by:" section for Ukraine on this page ... - or is it just that we don't want to call the section "supported by". There are more important issues with this article than whether or not to titivate the infobox with bunting from the flags of all nations. If Zelenskyy bought a corset, I swear somebody would want to add this flag too. (on spec that it might have whale bone stiffening. One should be aware that supported by is not an infobox parameter. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:51, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

"One should be aware that supported by is not an infobox parameter." And yet, look at the pages for other wars. Vietnam War, Korean War, Iraq War, Yemeni civil war, Syrian civil war, all these pages have to some degree or another included a reference to "support" in the infobox by nations not involved as co-belligerents. Is the involvement of the UK in the Vietnam War, to give an example, so dramatically greater than the UK's existing political, economic and military activities supporting Ukraine's war effort? If no country supports Ukraine strongly enough to be listed here, then do all these pages need revision to meet the same standard? TheGlaswegian (talk) 16:12, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Two wrongs do not make a right. Slatersteven (talk) 16:22, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

I can't say I follow; what is the wrong? That the articles of countless major wars, quite possibly the majority, include non-participants that offered notable support? It seems both relevant and appropriate to me, especially when outside aid can be an important factor in understanding the context and outcomes of said wars. To provide another example, the article on the Arab-Israeli conflict includes the information that Israel is supported by the United States while the Soviet Union supported their Arab opponents. I can't say I see what's wrong about that inclusion. TheGlaswegian (talk) 16:32, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Well as it's not all, yes doing something because some other page does it (see WP:OTHERSTUFF) is not a great argument. We need new arguments (not "evidence" arguments) as to why this change needs to be made. Slatersteven (talk) 16:38, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

If the presence of this information across Wikipedia is insufficient, then how about the inclusion of Belarus in this article? It's listed as supporting Russia, so the inclusion of a "supported by" for Ukraine would be no different in terms of the format of the page.

For the record I would not support the removal of Belarus, but its inclusion while none of Ukraine's supporters warrant mention is a glaring inconsistency. TheGlaswegian (talk) 17:43, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Have you really read the previous discussions? If so, you'd know the answer to this question. But I guess it never hurts to keep asking the same question over and over. TylerBurden (talk) 02:08, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

ez answer: double standards. :) 190.26.168.50 (talk) 06:55, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

OK, so lets treat them the same, name one NATO country that has allowed attacks to be launched from its soil. If you can name one I will support their inclusion. Slatersteven (talk) 12:28, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

PS, why is it I am not surprised that the editors pushing this particular barrow are not ECP confirmed? Cinderella157 (talk)

Support for Cinderella on this. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:42, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, 50 men (the largest contingent) could just be embassy security, the simple fact is we do not know. Slatersteven (talk) 14:50, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Infobox should be changed ASAP, particularly considering it says Russia is supported by Belarus. Belarus does not have special forces on the ground. Not to mention billions of dollars in weapons are being supplied both by and through NATO countries. I think we should be careful here not to allow this article be subject of ridicule and adhere to WP:NPOV.Qayqran (talk) 19:19, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Not that you know, Belarus did however allow Russia to use it to stage its invasion of Ukraine. TylerBurden (talk) 03:52, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

TylerBurden Belarus allowed Russian forces to use its territory. I agree. NATO support includes providing tanks, F-16s, training, billions on military aid, military intelligence and of course special-ops on the ground. Can you provide here the basis on which you decide what does and does not constitute military support? Qayqran (talk) 16:05, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Can you provide a source that says F-16's have been provided? Also, are we now talking about support or military support? Slatersteven (talk) 16:23, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Also very curious about such a source, couldn't possibly be WP:OR. TylerBurden (talk) 01:23, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

"Individual NATO member countries are sending weapons, ammunition and many types of light and heavy military equipment, including anti-tank and air defence systems, howitzers, drones and tanks. To date, NATO Allies have provided billions of euros’ worth of military equipment to Ukraine. Allied forces are also training Ukrainian troops to use this equipment. All of this is making a difference on the battlefield every day, helping Ukraine to uphold its right of self-defence, which is enshrined in the United Nations Charter."

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_192648.htm

Its kinda easy to get off wikipedia once in a while :) 190.26.168.50 (talk) 06:58, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

This article doesn't mention F-16s at all. 93.72.49.123 (talk) 07:40, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

And this is why this keeps getting rejected, "Individual NATO member countries", not NATO. No mention of one of the justifications for inclusion. You, people, need to make better arguments. Slatersteven (talk) 12:30, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

From memory, we have already rejected adding the sinister States under “Belligerents” over the presence of its embassy security staff, its military attaché to the ambassador, and its unarmed DoD staff auditing weapons deliveries. We will likely continue to reject the presence of a handful of special forces that we don’t know what they are doing but are not alleged to be armed or fighting. And don’t appear to even be the issue, because just about all of the discussion above is repetition of previous discussions.  —Michael Z. 16:36, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

See FAQ. Slatersteven (talk) 11:35, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Slatersteven Strawman argument. No one is arguing to include NATO as supporting. We are saying United States, UK - and perhaps Poland which has already provided F-16s. Qayqran (talk) 19:10, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Beheadings

Several videos (videos themselves not in the link, so safe to click) have recently surfaced showing Russian forces beheading Ukrainian soldiers, drawing comparisons with ISIS. Since war crimes and treatment of POW's are mentioned in this article, these brutal acts may also be worth mentioning as examples of how Russia conducts itself in the war. Additional sources: The Guardian, Al Jazeera TylerBurden (talk) 03:49, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

It's mentioned in Treatment of prisoners of war in the Russian invasion of Ukraine and War crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but I think we should probably briefly mention it in this article too, since it seems to be receiving a lot of coverage. HappyWith (talk) 14:01, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Unsure, while terrible, we can't have every crime Russia has committed. Slatersteven (talk) 14:03, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Of course we can't, but given the notability (specifically in regards to amount of media coverage), I say we put in 1 or 2 sentences as a passing mention within that section.

Something like "Throughout (whatever range of dates the videos were found), several videos of Russian forces beheading Ukrainian POW's came to light. Many reliable sources liken these beheadings to those preformed by ISIS."

The example I wrote lacks encyclopedic wording and form, but an altered version would be nice to include in a more general sense. Nice argument (talk) 17:31, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

I wonder if an article could be made. In the style of Execution of Oleksandr Matsievskyi. Super Ψ Dro 18:54, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

I think there's maybe enough coverage, but I'm not totally sure. There's WP:NODEADLINE, so we might want to wait another 24 hours for WP:GNG to become completely clear, but after that, I'm pretty sure an article could be made. HappyWith (talk) 19:42, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Agree with above about a brief mention, that is what I was thinking as well. The coverage has been immense. Detailed content related to it is of course better suited for the linked articles above, or possibly a new one. TylerBurden (talk) 01:25, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

The article really needs a short section of a few paragraphs about Russia’s atrocity crimes: the persecution lists, the systematic organization of torture chambers for military and civilian victims, the mistreatment of PWs, the dissemination of videos of killings with sledge hammer, mutilation, or beheading, the kidnapping and reeducation of children, the incitement to genocide, etcetera. And about their investigation and prosecution.  —Michael Z. 01:40, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Recent news about an Ukrainian soldier beheaded by Russian soldiers are another evidence of Russian war crimes on the battlefield : [1], [2].---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 07:04, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

The article already mentions the Putin indictment for crimes, with a link to the main article. Should this precedent of waiting for indictments to be made, be observed for other infractions by other persons and other crimes from Russia? ErnestKrause (talk) 15:02, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Z Not it doesn't. Wikipedia is not an echo chamber for war propaganda. There are hundreds of examples of war crimes committed by both sides. Qayqran (talk) 19:13, 14 April 2023 (UTC)