Talk:September 11 attacks

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GA Review Final Comments

Great work, I've looked at all the relevant points above and will now read through the article again just to make sure. Anything I come up with I will list below this, but it is unlikely that any of the comments raised will hold up the GA nomination, they're just for future reference.

• I think the primary contributors to the article should look very closely at the "See Also" section to make sure that all the links there are important and strictly relevant and that any that are are not missing.
• The prose standard is good overall, but I'm noticing a few repetitions and slightly clumsy phrasing. Its good enough for GA, but might have a tough time at FAC. See if you can get a few uninvolved editors to run over the prose before attempting that (if you drop a line on my talk page I might be able to give it a go myself before you nominate).

• Take a look at the hate crimes section, because it repeats itself about Sikhs and could perhaps be phrased a little better.

• "The Commission and its report have been subject to various forms of criticism" - Give examples of this criticism.
• "were not adequately reinforced to provide emergency escape for people above the impact zones. NIST stated that the final report on the collapse of WTC 7 will appear in a separate report.[155][156] This was confirmed by an independent study by Purdue University.[157]" - What was confirmed? The stairwells thing or the seperate report?

None of these problems are significant enough to warrant any further delay of GA status. Congratulations, this is a well-written and properly sourced article on a hugely controversial and contentious issue that must have been a real challenge to maintain partly due to the sheer volume of information that could be added. Good luck working on the sub-articles and if you need any more input just drop me a line. Regards --Jackyd101 (talk) 09:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

		Congrats
		Moldy sandwiches for all! Thanks to everyone's help in achieving Good Article status! VegitaU (talk) 14:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Objection to Archiving

I'm dissapointed that the discussion on the FBI has been archived before resolution. The reason given was POV and the only reply to the editors questions was Synth and OR.

Quote: "Not sure what "Team Liberty" is or where they get their info, but the FBI itself states evidence linking bin Laden and 9/11 is clear and irrefutable. And you can't dismiss mutiple video confessions as "false" without some serious citations. I consider this matter closed."

1. The statement is accurate and is an official response by the FBI to the question of Bin Ladens involvement, there are reliable sources that repeat it (it's unfortunate he used a questionable one). 2. The source you provided to refute it does say that, but that is all it says...it provides no proof to back the claim and is a political response. 3. You cannot assume the video confessions are authentic as they are disputed so are not reliable as evidence. 4. YOU consider the matter closed? By what authority?
Regardless of whether the editor is a proponent of conspiracies or not he asked a relevant question in good faith and deserves an intelligent answer as to why it should not be mentioned which I can give him now: the statement is already in another 9/11 article (unless some POV warrior has deleted it there) and as the FBI opinion is only one of many it is not really relevant here as responsibility is only a minor part of this topic because it has it's own article. Please be careful when dismissing people who support conspiracies as you only feed them by over the top censorship and especially when false reasons for rejection are given. Wayne (talk) 17:00, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

False reasons? He says: "The FBI's page on bin Laden [1] does not mention the WTC attack at all. "Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world.

"As for the confessions, bin Laden did not walk into a police station, get fingerprinted, and then confess. To assume that a video tape from dubious sources is the absolute truth is quite an asumption. I did not say it was false; I said there is no evidence to prove that it is not false. Repeatedly confessing does not make something true. Bin Laden's movement has benefited greatly from the presumption that he did it - so confessing to it had a definite profit for him, whether he did or did not."

Osama hasn't been indicted or charged in connection with the 9/11 attacks, but he's still sought after as a suspect. The fact that the Most Wanted page doesn't have 9/11 on it doesn't suddenly prove his innocence. There is evidence as cited in various articles that he's linked to the attacks. Stop misinterpreting evidence without clear citations.

1. You admit the FBI's comments are accurate.
2. The burden of proof isn't on me. Wikipedia doesn't have to prove Osama did it, we just cite reliable sources that say evidence linking him is "clear and irrefutable".
3. Disputed by whom?
4. This authority

Now, this talk page is not for discussing conspiracy theories. That's why I archived it and that's why I'm going to archive this. -- VegitaU (talk) 17:18, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Firstly the FBI claim for the reason Bin Laden has not been charged is not a conspiracy theory. The claim "clear and irrefutable" is an outright lie in the context you have given it. That claim was made as a political statement without proof. The FBI was clear in that the reason Osama has not been charged is that none of the available evidence would be acceptable to a court. No one is disputing that Osama is a suspect. No one disputes that evidence points to him. Very few would even dispute that he is guilty. But then that is not what the editor you assumed bad faith for was claiming. He asked a relevant question that should have been answered. You are the one who turned it into a discussion on conspiracy theories instead of giving a coherant answer that would have ended the matter. This authority does not give you the power to dismiss legitimate questions just because you do not like the answer. Official theory POV pushers are no better than conspiracy theory POV pushers. Archive this section if you will but keep in mind that this is not about conspiracy theories but about the abuse of an Arbcom decision. Wayne (talk) 06:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Well your views are noted. But unless you have some definitively verifiable sources that are relevant to the discussion, stop this argument. Osama not being taken and fingerprinted as a bearing on his taped confessions is simple speculation. No more, no less. -- VegitaU (talk) 06:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be missing the point. I do not need to provide sources for two reasons. 1. As I stated earlier I oppose adding the information to this article and 2. The sources are already supplied in the 911 article where the information is presented. My sole objection is to the refusal to reply to an editor and archiving his question so others can't answer it. This in itself is not only a violation of WP policy but also a violation of the Arbcom and such actions, if continued, could and should result in a topic ban. Wayne (talk) 14:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

This issue and other issues have already been covered again and again and again and again. Including discussions in which you participated in. Stop pretending to be some mediator in the middle, because your few contributions add little meaningful content to improving this article. Per this discussion, I have taken it upon myself to quickly archive any discussions that are merely repeats after I give a sufficient answer. If you think this is POV pushing or the arbcom decision and enforcement goes "too far", you're free to get a second opinion. -- VegitaU (talk) 14:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

You can't expect every new editor/reader to read the archives before they read the article (I only have dialup and it takes hours to check an archive for something). If the question is not POV pushing then what is the problem with giving a reasonable answer no matter how many times it has been brought up in the past? The POV pushing I see is that in this case you did not give a "sufficient answer". Why attack me for making few edits to the article? I'm quite proud of the fact that of those "few" edits only one is not in the current version and that is due to it being moved to another article. Wayne (talk) 02:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I gave a reasonable answer. You haven't explained how anything I said is unreasonable. As for bringing stuff up from the past, we have a {{subst:Round In Circles}} template up to notify readers about just that. It's the reason our archives are indexed continuously. Certainly, we don't expect people to go through archives one-by-one. I'm not "attacking" you for anything you've made to the article, but for the arguments I've had with you before. -- VegitaU (talk) 02:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

This image

Let's add this image.

--Ilhanli (talk) 23:21, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Why? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

This image is already on Wikimedia Commons as Image:Pentagon crach site.jpg and does not have such a POV title. -- VegitaU (talk) 23:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Because it shows that Pentagon was under attack. You can see how much damage was made by the plane. You can see that the most defended building in USA was hitted. This is one of the most important pics of 9 11 Events.--Ilhanli (talk) 11:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

WTC 7

The section on the cause of this building's collapse references a preliminary report. The findings in this report are presented in a way that is much more definite than the report says we can be. --RadioElectric (talk) 09:22, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

How's that? The building was compromised by fires and collapsed. True. The investigation is ongoing. True. The current hypothesis is the collapse was caused by fire and debris induced structural damage. True. All true and cited, so tell me how it's supposedly more definite. Please read this and this regarding previous discussions on this topic. -- VegitaU (talk) 13:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I was saying that the article expresses it in stronger terms than the report does. I've seen the way you've been acting on here. Don't mind me if I wait for another editor to come along. --RadioElectric (talk) 23:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

You mean the way I've been reworking the article tirelessly, finding sources, and expertly citing facts? Why thank you, it's good to be noticed. -- VegitaU (talk) 00:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The problem may be the way in which the paragraph is structured (If it's the one I'm looking at - in the Aftermath section under Investigations). I think that material from the published, final report on the Twin Towers collapse is being quoted immediately before a sentence about the ongoing investigation into WTC7. Is this the problem? It wouldn't be hard to make the distinction clearer. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 00:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Book references

A lot of good work is being done to format the references, add page numbers, etc. But, I am concerned about book references being replaced. If page numbers are needed, I can help with that. In general, books written by experts such as Yosri Fouda, Peter Bergen, Lawrence Wright, Terry McDermott, etc. are higher quality than news articles, provide more depth, more fact-checking, with more expertise going into them. Yosri Fouda's book, for example, is the best reference for citing about the interview Fouda did with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh. This part of the interview is also included in his documentary on the attacks - طريق إلى 11 سبتمبر (Road to September 11th). I think that something is being lost by taking these out. --Aude (talk) 01:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Whoops. I saw the lack of page numbers as a problem and started replacing those sources with news organizations. I don't have any of the books, so if anyone here does, it would only improve the article further. My only concern would be this opening up to garbage like Debunking 9/11 Debunking and Painful Questions. -- VegitaU (talk) 01:46, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I have accumulated numerous books which cover various aspects in-depth (though I'm going away for the summer and not taking them with). There are also some good documentaries, including ones that PBS produced, and the one I mentioned above by Fouda is excellent though not in English. A huge amount has been written on the attacks, so we need to filter through it and choose the best sources. Of course there is a lot of junk out there too. I'm starting a list here (User:Aude/9-11 sources) of what I have, what I think are best sources for various aspects. Maybe this would help? --Aude (talk) 02:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

That looks good. It's odd though. This is the first lengthy article where a "further reading" section has been completely removed. I think I first showed up at this article when that happened. -- VegitaU (talk) 02:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I took out the following, which was in the Khalid Sheikh Mohammed section. Although Lawrence Wright's book is an excellent source (and I have the page number), I think this sentence is overly detailed.

"Lawrence Wright, Pulitzer Prize-winning writer, explains that Atta's commitment solidified in response to the Israeli strikes at the beginning of Operation Grapes of Wrath." - source: Wright, Lawrence (2006). The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11. Alfred A. Knopf. ISBN 0-375-41486-X.

Simply saying "Mohamed Atta shared this same motivation." with one sentence to back that up is sufficient. I also swapped the sources for that, back to what was there before. What I put back is more specific (mentioning Israel) and goes with what the paragraph says about KSM. I realize the MSNBC TV documentary is not as widely available, but I still think it's best for now. --Aude (talk) 02:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I think all the other changes look good. --Aude (talk) 02:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I still have to get all the accessdates put on the web sources. What a pain that's been. -- VegitaU (talk) 02:55, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Drug connection ?

What appears missing from many sources is a possible 'drug connection' to 9-11, even as part of a conspiracy theory ?

As Canadian troops, have found that Afghanistan is providing over 80% of the world's opium supply.

Could it be that the attack on 'America' was in part due to America's war on drugs, and or elements intercepting drug shipments to America ?

Seems that the logic of the situation merits some reference to this.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 19:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I have to say I've never heard this one before. And since the Taliban had stopped opium growth before 9/11, no, it's not possible. -- VegitaU (talk) 19:33, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I too am surprised not to have heard of it before now. Do you have a reliable source for this, or is it just conjecture? We can't just add any editor's opinion to an article. Wikipedia policy forbids it. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 19:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Thats the problem. No source. It was not ever mentioned that Afghanistan was the world's greatest Opium producer, all the talk was about oil.

Even though much of the conjecture was about oil, never was a drug connection mentioned.

Just last week the Canadian Foreign Minister was showcased on the CBC dating the former wife of a Drug Dealer.

So is there a connection ?

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 20:06, 23 May 2008 (UTC)