Talk:Shaun King

Semi-protected edit request on 26 July 2016

I would like to remove where it says "African American" under the top portion where it says "Shaun King is an African American writer and civil rights activist." Shaun King has been proven not to be African American and I would request this be changed to a more accurate title.

Bruce233 (talk) 19:26, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

 Not done There seems to be no reason to remove it wholesale, especially with the lack of reliable sources supporting your claim. Even if this aspect eventually turns out to be incorrect, there's no harm to the subject, since the subject makes this claim about himself. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 21:00, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Shan King is NOT African-American — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ninjaboss1313 (talk • contribs) 22:23, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

This is NOT a discussion board where we share opinions. If you know of reliable sources that back up your opinion, bring them here for our review. This page is about discussing the improvement of this article. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 00:22, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2016

Greetings,

Two months ago, Shaun King reached out to the Wikipedia community to make corrections to his Wikipedia page. I responded to ask what the errors were, and here is his reply:

"Thanks for addressing my concerns. My Wikipedia page has a number of errors. Could you please address them? Much of the information can be confirmed here: http://www.snopes.com/2015/08/19/shaun-king/ . Here's a list of the problems on my page:

1. Name misspelled – correct spelling: Jeffery Shaun King. It has been misspelled as Jeffrey.

2. "Early Life" - omitted information and errors:

I entered Morehouse College, a historically black college for me, in August of 1997. In March of 1999, I won the Otis Moss Oratorical Contest in front of the student body and was, a month later, elected the youngest student government president elected since 1947.

I was a Bonner Scholar - which required me to perform community service, from 1997 forward. It was as a Bonner Scholar that I performed regular community service at Frank L. Stanton Elementary School.

During my junior year at Morehouse, I had a spinal surgery stemming from the injuries I suffered when I was assaulted in high school. When I returned, I was given the Oprah Winfrey Scholarship. I didn't apply for it. It was granted to "diamonds in the rough" we were told.

3. Activism- omitted information and errors:

I have been an activist and spokesperson against injustice since 1997 - first leading rallies on the campus of Morehouse College as a student leader dealing with the sentencing disparities between crack and cocaine and later against the shooting deaths of Amadou Diallo and Sean Bell. It's how I became known as a student.

4. "Tamir Rice Fundraising"- omitted information and errors:

a. We started the fundraiser for Tamir Rice after being given direct permission & encouragement by his uncle to do so. I was told that he was the spokesperson for the family. b. We started it after we saw an interview where his mother, Samaria, said she would soon have to go to work. c. Racist trolls and bigots aimed to stop the campaign because I was a part of it. They contacted the attorney, who was confused and had the account shut down. d. Samaria Rice fired that attorney. He then petitioned the court that he be paid from the money we raised from the family and was paid from it. e. At no time did we ever have possession of the funds that were raised. f. The family and her attorneys and I have worked together many times since.

I have helped raise nearly a million for causes and families related to the Black Lives Matter Movement and have not received a dime of it.

5. High School Assault – omitted information and inaccuracies:

a. I missed nearly 18 months of school after the assault to have three spinal surgeries. b. I had fractures in my face and ribs c. I had severely damaged sinus cavities d. The worst injuries were to my lower back/spine

This one is of particular import:

e. The detective who visited me in the hospital checked a box saying I was white. That police report has been used as proof that I am white. Here is what that detective said about it in an interview :

Detective Keith Broughton, who was the officer on the scene of the alleged hate crime, told IJReview: “I believe that he’s biracial. I could just tell when I saw him. I marked him white because he’s very light complected. He was there with his white mother. My crime report there’s only two things you can check: black or white. It doesn’t say biracial…anyone from around here who knew him knew he was mixed.” (Source: http://ijr.com/2015/08/398828-witness-shaun-kings-high-school-hate-crime-shares-remembers-day/ )

Many other very essential facts are in that story pertaining to race as well.

6. Under questions regarding race:

a. The source, Milo, has been banned from Twitter for racial antagonism. b. The source, Milo, has said a dozen other disproved assertions about me that are not mentioned here. c. The source for Milo, Vicki Pate, has also been banned from Twitter for violating terms of use. d. Again, the Versailles detective, who I had never met before, said "anyone from around here who knew him knew he was mixed." My race was never a secret. It was well known, and that was in 1995. "

Can someone please make these corrections? If you would like further information or if you would like information to reach Shaun King directly, feel free to contact me by email.

Much appreciated, Gohoya (talk) 00:26, 12 August 2016 (UTC)Gohoya

Gohoya (talk) 00:26, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

(You or anyone) Feel free to make changes to the article that are reliably sourced. I'm not sure Snopes is a hard enough source, but if they provide references for anything, and if they are reliable, go with them. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 00:51, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 August 2016

Mr. King is not African American but Caucasian. Please fix this error.

StephenHopkins53 (talk) 13:25, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

 Not done per previous similar requests. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 13:41, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

citation needed on his race

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Does anyone have a reliable source, a publication of his DNA test results? (Redacted) If we can neither confirm or deny anything about his race with real scientific sources as opposed to anecdotal claims, perhaps it is best to make no claims about his race, be it african-american or caucasian; just leave his race unlisted. Better to be lacking information than possibly be displaying erroneous information. -75.140.253.89 (talk) 04:39, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

As soon as we have the same for Donald Trump. That's how ridiculous this request is. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 00:07, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

The article on Donald J. Trump does not make any claims whatsoever on his race. So yes, I am perfectly fine with employing the same standard, thank you! -75.140.253.89 (talk) 00:59, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Denied on the grounds that the request is absurd. Reliable sources do not have to include DNA test results to demonstrate claims made about birth parents, the same way we don't require tests to prove anyone's religion. And yes, for these purposes, they are similar. Stop wasting our time. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 04:27, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

You say that, but then why is Elizabeth_Warren not described as Native American? Reliable sources have stated that she said family members have remarked on her "papaw's" "high cheekbones...just like all the Indians do". The difference between claiming a religion and claiming a racial identity is that only one of these can actually be changed through one's life. Claims about birth parents cannot be trusted as fact when, by the whole family's admission, the *true* birth father's identity is unknown. King has no idea who his father is; by his own admission he has never met him, nor seen photographs of him. His life's self-professed racial identity has only been based on a gut feeling. -75.140.253.89 (talk) 14:52, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

I have redacted an unsupported personal opinion which reflects negatively on the article subject; Wikipedia is not a place for editors to make unsupported speculation or claims about living people, and such is specifically prohibited by policy. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:38, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Unsupported claims about living people would be (Redacted). That is quite the extraordinary claim, which requires extraordinary evidence. Reports of hearsay, even reports by high-profile news outlets such as CNN and a couple of magazines, are still reports of hearsay, and do not satisfy the requirement for extraordinary evidence. -75.140.253.89 (talk) 14:52, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

I think you may be confusing genetics with psychology. Racial and ethnic identity is not determined by DNA. You may be interested in the subject of Passing (racial identity). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:24, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

As the man's race has been questioned in reliable news sources, we do require a preponderance of reliable sources to make a claim about his race, as we would with any statement about a living person. SPACKlick (talk) 20:31, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Which reliable sources? In the article we just have reliable sources reporting on unreliable sources questioning his race. — Strongjam (talk) 20:48, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

There are two reliable sources directly cited for his racial heritage. Your edit misrepresented those sources - neither of them says anything about "self report" - they both state as fact that King is black or biracial. I have restored the previous consensus version. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:53, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

The two sources on the claim in the final section say (quoting Shaun)I have been told for most of my life that the white man on my birth certificate is not my biological father and that my actual biological father is a light-skinned black man and in their own words He has said that his mother is white and his father is black and that the assault fueled his passion for helping people. Both of these are couched in terms of self reporting, they are not the claims of the source themselves. I will remove the claims again until a source stating his race is provided per WP:BLP. SPACKlick (talk) 23:32, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Please read this reliable source cited in the section you are changing. It states, in the source's voice and without qualifiers, that King is The son of a Caucasian mother and an African-American father. Your edit disregards and indeed misrepresents the content of that source, and at this point, that misrepresentation must be considered willful. Please do not change reliably-sourced text in a manner that isn't supported by those sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:54, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Ok, we do have one source for his parentage, now do you have a reliable source for him being African American? On the accusations of it being willful, there is no source in the lede I am changing and the two sources on the sentence I was changing I quoted above, they both point to a self attribution, the article you linked isn't linked anywhere near that section. When someone argues for something you disagree with on a talk page, rather than attributing malice, why not directly point to the sources that support your claim rather than start an argument? SPACKlick (talk) 00:29, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, but you're just wrong. In this edit, you inserted the entirely-unsourced words "self reports as" in a sentence which is directly sourced to two reliable sources — one which says he's "Black" and the other which says he's "The son of a Caucasian mother and an African-American father." That is a misrepresentation of the two cited sources, and as I said, you either negligently failed to read the sources or willfully ignored what they say. As for the lede, as per WP:LEDE, the lede does not need duplicate citations for statements which are cited in the body text. If you think there's a special reason to provide sources there, that's something we could come to consensus on, but it's not a requirement. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:26, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I've worked out the cock up I've made, there's two sections which mention his parentage, the top of personal Life and the last section. I was reading the sources from the latter when editing the former. Which was clearly my mistake. You still haven't pointed to a source which says he's african american by the way, The BlackEnterprise source describes his company as Black Owned. Black is not the same as African American. SPACKlick (talk) 09:37, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Er, yes it is, if the person is an American. See the definition of African American - "Americans (citizens or residents of the United States) with total or partial ancestry from any of the black racial groups of Africa." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:26, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Verified self-reporting about things like this are easily and clearly enough to go on unless there is reliable controverting sources that show what he is saying isn't true or can be reasonably questioned, and even then, we would have to balance both viewpoints. We cannot simply judge that somebody is lying about their own essence (e.g., racial makeup, religion, etc.). In the end, we cannot treat this subject as different from any other one in this regard, and this continued picking on this subject is frankly rather strange and seems like a vendetta. We have to say he is what he says he is. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 00:00, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

This whole thing is absurd. It wouldn't even be an issue if not for Milo poisoning the well. If the man says he's black, he's black. There's no reason to doubt his explanation. clpo13_(talk) 23:57, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Race is not like religion, self reporting is not always sufficient. If Donald Trump claimed to be Mexican I doubt you would be so easy going. SPACKlick (talk) 00:29, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

"Mexican" isn't a race. WhatamIdoing (talk) 13:29, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm done. The content has plenty sufficient backup at this time. This is clearly an attempt to publicly tell somebody they're lying despite having no reliable sources to back it up. The subject isn't saying something absurd about himself and that's obvious to most people. I'm on the verge of reporting people who persist in this absurdity. Again, to those pushing this, stop wasting our time. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 01:20, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

This isn't "self reporting." Two reliable sources state, in the source's voice and without qualification or attribution, that King is "Black" and "the son of a Caucasian mother and an African-American father." You have presented zero reliable sources which refute or even seriously contest this uncontroverted statement of fact. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:30, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

You will see I am responding to a claim that self reporting is sufficient for Race, not the claim that his race is unsupported, that discussion is higher up the page. Where I have admitted I was looking at sources on one part of the page and editing another due to similar language. With that being said, there has been discussion of his race in reliable sources, such as the daily mail, so it is likely to be questioned. The solution when it is, which nobody has yet done, is to POST A SOURCE THAT SAYS HE'S AFRICAN AMERICAN. Don't say the source exists, or the source is linked. Link the source and quote from it. SPACKlick (talk) 09:37, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

The Daily Mail is not a reliable source for BLP issues, as per longstanding consensus on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard and BLP Noticeboard. I invite you to open a discussion there if you think that consensus should change. As for the other claim, it's patently silly to claim that an American citizen who is half-black is not an African-American, and it doesn't really merit further response. The dictionary definition of African-American is thataway. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:26, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

If you are responding to a claim that self-reporting is sufficient, then I'll tell you the general policy: Unless there is a reliable source that seriously disputes the self-reported claim (e.g., not merely one that reports that some politically motivated group is pretending that the one-drop rule never would have applied to this person), then self-reports are not only "acceptable" but also generally considered "authoritative". WhatamIdoing (talk) 13:29, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Do you have any relevant evidence (such as from a genealogical study) that his father is actually black instead of accepting the WP:FRINGE explanation that there is a government conspiracy that King's birth certificate is entirely inaccurate, that it lists his race incorrectly, and that the white man listed on his birth certificate is not his father? -75.140.253.89 (talk) 00:07, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Also holy shit, one-drop rule? Are we going back to Jim Crow era? How can you even mention that as a serious suggestion? -75.140.253.89 (talk) 00:22, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Of course, as we all know, birth certificates are never inaccurate and nobody ever lies when filling one out. clpo13_(talk) 00:14, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

You are now making a legal opinion. Careful where you tread. -75.140.253.89 (talk) 01:17, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

It is not your place as a Wikipedia editor to demand "a genealogical study" of a person's ancestry. That's not what we do as encyclopedia editors. If you wish to undertake some sort of investigation of the article subject, you are not in the right place. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:01, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Puff pieces in lifestyle magazines are not relevant sources for providing evidence on someone's race -75.140.253.89 (talk) 01:14, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

That may be your opinion but that is not wikipedia policy. Those articles are WP:Reliable Sources. SPACKlick (talk) 01:17, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

rebelmagazine is not a high-profile news organization, and has not been used for citation on any other but this article. And I'm not really following any logic as to why the Black Enterprise article is listed as a source, as it makes no explicit statement on his race. Wikipedia does not make leaps of logic. -75.140.253.89 (talk) 01:41, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

The Black Enterprise source is used because it refers to Twit Change as a company that Shaun King owns and calls it "Black Owned" therefore it is a source that Shaun King is Black. SPACKlick (talk) 04:05, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

So the two sources are one source that has never been used on Wikipedia and the second you are inferring that is says he is black based on a business he is involved in which they say is 'black owned'? That seems extremely thin, at best. If he is black, there should be an actual RS out there that says so, in no uncertain terms.50m race walk (talk) 18:21, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

I'd like to have something with a more explicit connection. The article does not state whether King is the sole owner and proprietor of Twit Change. In fact, looking at TwitChange's history, it seems that Shelton Mercer, founder, might actually be the "black owner" that is referred to in the article. [1]-75.140.253.89 (talk) 04:32, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @75.140.253.89: The sources provided, both where Shaun reports that he was told his father was Black and those that report in their own voice that his biological father was black, provide sufficient sourcing for this claim even in a BLP. As for the above claim that any black american is African American I'd love to see a source on that, because not all black Americans are of recent African ancestry. Not all african immigrants are black and black skin as a phenotype is not uniquely African. Plenty of black americans do not self identify as african american we have West Indian Americans, Afro Caribbean and Caribbean people[2] and [[Black Hispanic and Latino Americans

]]. This topic comes up in lots of areas of guidance (see Penn State's advice to mentors). So I say again, we need at least one source claiming that Shaun is an African American as opposed to any other black identity for wikipedia to ascribe that identity to him. I suspect from his writings that he does identify that way but I can only find writings where he refers to himself as black and where he refers to his father as black and where his company is referred to as Black Owned. SPACKlick (talk) 00:36, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

From the 48 sources in the article we have

• ...when King's claim to being African-American was questioned in a story on Breitbart.com.24
• the winner of the most creative social good campaign in 2010, was a Black-owned company.15(although it doesn't specifically say Shaun owns the company),
• He publicly identified as black throughout high school, and said by the time he went to college he “had honestly moved on from even wanting to know the details of who [his mother] slept with in January of 1979.”1,
• quoting a tweet “If you have known me from when I was in elementary school at Huntertown Elementary until now, you’ve known me as black or bi-racial.” & summarising his own article By middle school, King identified not as biracial, but as black. His friends were black, his girlfriends were black. That was it. & in their own words As a teenager he was beaten for being black.28,
• Traugott didn't want to comment on King's race,37, of breitbart wrote in Breitbart, a conservative website, that King is not black or biracial & from a local These rednecks beat him because he is or came off to be BLACK. & in their own voice is there any way to conclusively figure out who's right, and whether King is black or biracial? Unfortunately, no & even if King's family members identify as white, black, or something else, it's entirely plausible for King to identify as black or biracial & If King isn't black or biracial, the movement may have a harder time accepting him as a leader43,
• in his response to the allegation that he misrepresented his race and passed for black when he's actually white. & quoting Don Lemon Initially, he did not answer but later referred to himself as biracial45,
• Mr. King, who has long identified as black,48.

And in his own article he exclusively refers to himself as having been black while growing up. So we have no source and googling provides me with no source to which we can attribute african american as his racial identity SPACKlick (talk) 04:46, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Due to lack of proper sources, it seems best to remove the claim for now. In addition to the already-changed lede this also should be accompanied with the removal from the "Personal Life" section the claim that King is the "biological son of ... an African-American father". I advise any critics that a removal of a claim is not a declaration of the polar opposite, and many BLP articles exist that do not make any claims on their subject's race. -75.140.253.89 (talk) 18:41, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

There is not any consensus to remove, and given the current enforcement action regarding yourself, you should be the last person pushing this. On the other hand, to be magnanimous, if somebody would like to start an RfC on the matter, please proceed. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 18:52, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

In this case it is the policy to remove the disputed material, as per WP:BLP. Please read WP:CONSENSUS: "for contentious matters related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify or remove it." -75.140.253.89 (talk) 20:46, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Several sources appear dead or mispointed

As a side note of looking into the sources from above, sources 7,8,21,22&23 appear to be no longer available, Source 27 points to a blank search page at the Daily Kos. Sources 45 and 47 point to the same article but 45 has a different apparent title. SPACKlick (talk) 04:46, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

See WP:DEADREF. Also, different titles are pretty common these days. You'll often see different titles in the HTML header (top of your browser window) and above the first paragraph on news sites. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:41, 28 August 2016 (UTC)