Talk:State-sponsored terrorism

Jordan?

Hezbollah is a major part of Jordan's government...

This Article is Worthless =

Wikipeida needs a new category that flags articles as worthless. This one could cut its entire list of countries, which is both incomplete and inaccurate, and not suffer. Belgium as a state sponsor of terror? That's inane. Gaintes (talk) 16:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Palestinian authority

The Palestinians aren't really part of a state (except maybe Israel, but that's streching it). Thus the "Palestinian authority" isn't a state like Afghanistan or the United Kingdom. It should be moved elsewhere.Vice regent 20:16, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I removed the following from the article per my comments above (and because it is completely unsourced).Vice regent 14:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The Palestinian Authority has sponsored terrorism against Israel. Yasser Arafat's Fatah made an alliance with Hamas and Islamic Jihad and it contnued until the civil war, which was really a power struggle. Though, they made a unity government and had some clashes with the Hamas parliment. The Palestinian Authority has encouraged terrorism against Israel to destroy the state of Israel. Some groups that are part of and commanded by the rest of fatah such as al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades were established in the second intifada and committed suicide bombings against Israeli civilians and have fought Israeli soldiers. Arafat, while he was president of the Palestinan Authority, was seen on PA TV publicly encouraging a jihad against Israel. But unlike al-Qaeda wich is commonly considered terrorist many muslims and muslim nations don't see these organisations as terrorist but as legitimate recistance.

Weasel List

I belive the purpose of this list is to educate people about state-sponsired terrorism, not to make political statements. The Middle East is obviously home to many examples. On the other hand, the list shouldn't include such fallacies as the UK being indentified by Iran. It should be obvious that Iran uses this to retaliate against Europe and America. Therefore, the nations of France, the UK, and the US should be removed, since they are being accused of these crimes by the terrorist states themselves. What good is our list if we equally punish France with Iran, when France is a free, democratic country, and Iran is a dictatorship that does not respect human rights. Please discuss, (209.7.171.66 22:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC))

The sections you removed were sourced properly and meets our policies WP:V and WP:RS. Removing them was against our policy on WP:NPOV. Having these countries on this list is firstly, not a weasel list, secondly, does not constitute a political statement. nat ^{Alo! Salut! Sunt eu, un haiduc?!?!} 22:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

My dear Canadian friend. I believe it is a weasel list. Please understand that nations which are regarded by the international community as supporters of terrorism, do NOT have the same credibility to accuse free, democratic nations of the same crime. If I call you a name, you cannot call me back one just because I did it. It must be supported by evidence. Iran is a terrorist-sponsoring nation. It may accuse the UK or the US of the same crime to retaliate, but the Wikipedia community should realize how foolish it is, and thus, disregard it. I hope you understand my logic. Let me know what you think. (209.7.171.66 22:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC))

Here at Wikipedia, we treat all states, nations and countries on the same level no matter what they have or haven't done. That means if it is notable and it is sourced, we added it. One being democratic and the other one not, does not give the democratic nation precedence over the other. nat ^{Alo! Salut! Sunt eu, un haiduc?!?!} 23:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Besides that, France has more or less admitted to sponsoring terrorism in this specific instance. They called it terrorism when it happened and they latter admitted they were involved in planning it. If anything, France is probably the worst example anon could use since they are oen of the only ones who beyond any shred of doubt should be on this list even if what they did may seem minor to many of the other accusations Nil Einne (talk) 18:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Controversial Statements

This article contains a number of controversial, unreferenced statements. The way to address these is to add citations or to remove these statements - simply removing the {{fact}} tags that highlight WP:V issues is NOT the way forward Socrates2008 (talk) 11:27, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Alleged South African Sponsorship of Loyalist paramilitaries

The citation added this to support this allegation mentions a poor attempt by the South Africans to procure missile technology from the Loyalists (not the other way round).

"When three Loyalists were arrested in Paris in April 1989 in the company of a South African diplomat, in the subsequent court case the French judge treated the Loyalists leniently. He did so because what they had been handing over to the diplomat was just a display model of a Shorts missile and not anything that could have been of any value to the South African military."

So this citation contradicts, rather than supports the statement in the article that "In the 1980s, the apartheid regime was alleged to have supplied arms to loyalist paramilitaries in Northern Ireland such as the Ulster Defence Association and Ulster Volunteer Force" Socrates2008 (talk) 13:00, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

You're missing the actual section that the citation supports:

"I had been deliberately targeted by an agent of South African Military Intelligence. This agent had somehow got hold of the security-force file about Mr X and then changed the details, inserting my name and address. He had then shown the file to the Loyalists."

     GiollaUidir (talk) 18:12, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

No, haven't missed it. That link you've mentioned does not mention or substantiate arms sales by South Africa. Please find a reliable source that backs up the sale of arms by South Africa to the Loyalists or the unsubstantiated statement to that effect in the article may be removed.

Please do not make further edits until this has been resolved. Socrates2008 (talk) 23:10, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The second ref link is being a bit dodgy but the page is cached here. Quote: "During this period, Nelson also travelled to South Africa at the behest of McMichael, to procure arms for the UDA. He was central to securing weapons in January 1988 including 200 AK47 assault rifles, 90 Browning pistols, 500 fragmentation grenades, 30,000 rounds of ammunition and 12 RPG 7 rocket launchers.

Divided out among the UDA, UVF and Ulster Resistance, the weapons helped to fuel a loyalist murder campaignfrom1988 to1994in which more than 200 people died.The deal with SouthAfrican agents was known to Nelson's handlers and is thought to have been cleared by at least one unnamed British government minister. "

Regards, GiollaUidir (talk) 19:14, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I don't see why you regard adding references to a section as being "controversial edits". While I appreciate that you are probably editing in good faith your removal of references that support the material is starting to get irritating. I suggest you read the FULL source before removing it in future. Regards, GiollaUidir (talk) 19:25, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The reference did not support the statement - simple as that. Your citation was about an alleged assassination plot and attempt by SA to procure rocket technology and would therefore support a statement about SA buying, not supplying arms. You can't make a claim, then back it up with an contradictory citation. I raised this issue here on the talk page specifically so that you could have the opportunity to resolve it. This is a controversial article, so reliable and verifiable references are required, even if you may find this "irritating". Socrates2008 (Talk) 21:38, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree strongly with Socrates2008 and I have reverted the addition by GiollaUidir. The one reference does not work and the other does not support of even mention the supply of arms by any party. --Deon Steyn (talk) 09:18, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

South Africa

I have once again had to correct this section. I would remind User:Phase4 to refrain from adding POV content. The references to the South African Border War or political assassinations fall outside of the definition of terrorism or state sponsored terrorism. None of these activities targeted "non-combatants". --Deon Steyn (talk) 09:26, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I in turn have had to correct Deon's edits. Hopefully we can now put these issues to bed.Phase4 (talk) 20:42, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Phase4 is a POV alias of Patrick Haseldine

Phase4 is an alias of Patrick Haseldine is for making POV edits non attributable to him. Please see the talk page Socrates2008 (Talk) 02:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Herald.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

POV and Patrick Haseldine

I have removed a bad case of POI, namely "Conspiracy theorist Patrick Haseldine" This is opinion. I have changed it to fact, which is he was a diplomat.

That term was there because he is the chief proponent of an unproven conspiracy theory about South African involvment in the Lockerbie bombing. Furthermore, his edit of his own biography suggests that he himself is happy with this term. Socrates2008 (Talk) 01:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Labelling somone a conspiracy theorist is certainly POV:- it is a pejorative term used it discredit the theories expressed by that individual (and I'm not expressing support for SA involvment.) In contrast his position as a diplomat is fact. The link you gave in no way proves Patrick Haseldine is happy to be labelled a conspiracy theorist. All it shows is that someone who registered as PJHaseldine, and linked himself to this article, did not change the description. This is not support as anyone could claim on Wikipedia to be him, and it is policy that Wikipedia is not used as its own reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.217.219 (talk) 21:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion continued here Socrates2008 (Talk) 10:44, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Fact tags and deletions

I'm familiar with most of the facts on this article, and will start to work to add references to support the claims. So please do not make any further deletions. One section on Chile about Operation Condor that user Raggz deleted as "OR," is actually not OR but well known, and there are many good sources to support the claim. So I'll restore that bit and expand on it with a source. An excellent source I have the supports the claims is from the journal Social Justice. Article Title: Operation Condor: Clandestine Inter-American System by J. Patrice Mcsherry Volume: 26. Issue: 4. Publication Year: 1999. Page Number: 144. COPYRIGHT 1999. Thanks.Giovanni33 (talk) 06:52, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

New sources required

This article is big on claims but short on citations in places. Some sections have no references at all, which is just not on. I have removed one paragraph from Belgium as that had been tagged for nearly a year. I won't remove any more for the moment, but quite honestly I could see entire sections going if good references don't appear. John Smith's (talk) 22:31, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess you ignored my request above not to remove more items from this article as I am working on finding the best sources for these claims, and that these claims are valid. I hope this is not more of your wikistalking, JohnSmiths but its odd that you come here and delete right after I posted a message asking editors not to.Giovanni33 (talk) 01:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

You posted your request over 12 hours before I made the deletion - that is hardly wikistalking, given I'd been editing for a lot longer last evening. I did miss it, but you can restore it very easily when you find your citations. John Smith's (talk) 12:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Herald.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Herald.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:54, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Herald.jpg

Image:Herald.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 12:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Soviet Union

An important part of this chapter is actually not concerned with "international" terrorism, as is claimed to be part of the definition in the heading. If the heading is not changed, that part should be deleted. As it is, this part is only there to push POV and support the existence of the "communist terrorism" articles.

Clear examples of this "communist terrorism" POV: mentioning China as a country liberated by the Soviet Army.

The main problem with the rest is (as has been pointed out in the other communist terrorist articles) that it is all based on the controversial statements of one man: Pacepa, who had a clear motive to claim these things. You need more substantiation, or else WP:UNDUE could be invoked.

Obviously, as this article is a POV magnet, the other chapters suffer from similar problems. I have already and easily dealt with an anti-British fragment, but I am sure there must be more.--Paul Pieniezny (talk) 10:43, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

India

I would like to remove for following reason: - Only one of the citations provided is working, which shows Musharraff blaming India for Balochistan separatism. Even if India did support separatists, there is no evidence in the links provided that these separatism in Balochistan(which is a completely lawless area in itself) can be classified as terrorism(ie, deliberate targeting of innocent civilians). Suigeneris (talk) 08:56, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

It appears to be a hasty remark to blame India as a tit-for-tat for the Kabul bombings in which both India and US accused Pakistan's ISI for their involvement. Surprisingly as this link indicates Pakistan countered by accusing US too of aiding terrorism in Balochistan, along with India of course, because these 2 nations were able to expose the Kabul terrorist attack. Idleguy (talk) 15:16, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

No he said it even before this Incident he is saying this since 2006.so i'm reverting it.another link Tariq Azeem this time if link doesn't work then here is the text "Arms supply to Bugti, Baloch rebels to be taken up with India, Afghanistan, says Tariq Azeem.

Islamabad, September 05 (PPI): Minister of State for Information Senator Tariq Azeem has said that Pakistan would take up the issue of arms supply to Akbar Bugti and other Baloch tribal chieftains with India and Afghanistan at an appropriate time. In an interview, he said Bugti was not himself..."

[1]

There is ample evidence to support this if it's not Internet this doesn't mean that India is not sponsoring terrorist. User talk:Yousaf465

I reverted your edits for following reasons:

It is immaterial who said and when it was said - support/sympathy for separatism(in itself) does not equal terrorism. Such support may result in armed conflicts between rival parties - but cannot be equated with deliberate and ruthless targeting of civilians like it happenned in Bombay or Karachi.

Your links are mostly not working - You can't copy paste contents of the links to talk page and provide it as reference

There is ample evidence to support this if it's not Internet this doesn't mean that India is not sponsoring terrorist. - Wiki doesnt publish OR. See WP:Original_Research Suigeneris (talk) 15:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

This article is about sponsoring terrisot organzation.The link provided is working and if any link is not working copy it and search it in google.If you think they are not terroist see thislink declares BLA terrorist organisation I pasted that bcz in case that link didn't work but it's working fine.That or was just for the talk page.

Many civilians haved been killed in attacks by these groups. User talk:Yousaf465

• Except the rediff link, the links in my talk page give a 404 error. btw, don't you find it a bit amusing that after India, Afghanistan, and most importantly Pak's ally in the "War on Terror", the USofA accused ISI for its involvement in the recent kabul blasts, we have pakistan reporting of these three nations' (including US) trying to support terrorism in Pakistan? US backing terror networks in Pakistan This only proves that Pakistan is hell bent on accusing those who have criticised Pak by counter allegging them with state-sponsored terrorism. Idleguy (talk) 12:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Again we are seeing disruptive edits by User talk:Yousaf465. Seeing the amount of typos and comments in the user page, I even suppose that these could even be good faith edits by an inexperienced user. The user keeps on adding the OR "Pakistan has accused India of support to terroist groups within Pakistan". The user fails to provide one or more reliable, working links which states the above sentence or an equivalent sentence. I am not interested in an edit war, but if the user keep on adding this OR, this could be considered as vandalism and a WIki admin will have to look into his/her edits.

After providing a link which never works, there is no point in challenging other users to search in google and find themselves about the OR. Suigeneris (talk) 15:27, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

All of these links are working and I will also check in a day or two if there is some problem with them.User talk:Yousaf465

OK here you go - 1)Statement - Pakistan has accused India of supporting terrorist groups such as BLA.Citation - http://www.dawn.com/2006/07/18/top5.htm. I could never find the statement in the link provided - this is a pure OR

2)Statement - Suppling them with arms and ammunition. Whether this is terrorism is debatable - try to discuss here if there is a dispute before you add something.

3) Statement - Indian Intelligences Agencies have also carried bomb attacks in 1990's. Citation -'http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4789260.stm'. Again I could not find the statement you added in the link provided - this is pure OR constructed based on a different incident

4) Statement - Organizations such as Tamil Eelam Liberation Organization have been trained and supported by India. Pure OR - will be deleted

Please dont vandalise by adding pure ORs with irrelevant or non functioning links, that too with full of typos. You are just making unconstructive edits that disrupt the quality of the article as a whole. I recommend that you try to use Wikipedia:Sandbox to experiment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zencv (talk • contribs) 09:12, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Here is the reply

1)The dawn link was only for proving that Bla is a terrorist group.The Hindu link was there to support that India is supporting them.The Asia times link mentioned that Bla was been supplied with arms by India

2) This article is about States supporting terrorism.Whether it's through arms supply or being trained in that country.

3)carrying out four bombings which killed 14 people in Pakistan in 1990.

4)Pure Or then see this [2] and what is this Pure OR it wasn't written by me [3]

I don't need sandboxes for such edits when I know that I'm doing it correctly.User talk:Yousaf465

200 typos in 1 sentence, non functioning links, links provided with no proper heading and pure Original Research - if someone read your edits about India, they would realize how desperate you are - oh wait, it is real Madrassa edit indeed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zencv (talk • contribs) 20:32, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm always in hurry as right now I'm.User talk:Yousaf465

I understand that some people have concerns about certain statements and quotes in the India section. They, however, can easily be fixed, only with some sufficient research and just rubbing out the whole section is totally pointless and yet also unconstructive. Also, I must say that just completely erasing everything about India has no reason. It is a fact that India has been accused and alleged of certain acts and trying to get India out of the article does not help. In that case, if you read the Pakistan section, apart from facts, there a a number of accusations such as Pak's so-called role in the Assam conflict. Shouldn't these be removed too, then? Furthermore, if some people are very keen on removing Indian content (mostly typical pro-Indian users), it would be better of you that you DO NOT REMOVE FACTS. India's involvement in events such as the Bangladesh insurgency of the 1970's, as well as support for the terrorist organisation Tamil Tigers were TRUE (read history if you are short of knowledge), and you can find some articles about this on the net too. If users are still concerned about the information, then perhaps you can help by doing research and adding correctly verified info to the India section. The fact that Indian RAW spies who were caught, such as Kashmir Singh, have no reason to be removed,and once again, I question: Why remove that? I hope that these irresponsible edits will be stopped. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strider11 (talk • contribs) 01:34, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Additionally, as someone has listed that Pakistan supports the ULFA, let me remind you that India in that case also funds the Balochistan Liberation Army which is also a terrorist organisation., and there are accurate links provided for this in the article.

Very intersting material

However, many - including media reports from Pakistan, feel that these counter-allegations launched by Pakistan's President came in the wake of a war of words between India and Pakistan on the suicide attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul, which New Delhi has blamed on Islamabad-based Inter-Services Intelligence agency. Check the date of this article and compare it to the time of attack on Indian embassy in Afghanistan.[4]

See this before reverting any edits."The National" clearly mentions that concerns are being voice well before embassy bombing.User talk:Yousaf465

There is ample evidence that the Pakistani accusations of india supporting BLA is directly linked with immediately preceding Kashmiri accusations of terrorism (a fact that even US has started supporting) even in the past and as well cited it has been used as a tit for tat accusation. I don't wish to say any further because these citations were also removed. whereas the issue on Sri Lanka and much of what's been included as sponsored terrorism is directly from the most biased and pakistan-military publication called "Defence Journal". Half of the info is original research trying to paste erstwhile support to LTTE when they were not banded as "terrorist" with current situations and producing a thesis in here. See WP:OR for what I mean.

Presently the only ally that is being directly hounded in the war on terror is Pakistan. A cursory glance at the newspapers will reveal that Pakistan harbours terrors who spill over to Afghanistan that US troops bombs Pakistan and the latter is issuing ultimatums not to disturb the "peace". The ISI again has been accused by everyone from NATO, to Afghanistan, to even USA for their support to the terrorists and the user Yousaf465 only adds information on India as a weak and futile attempt to somehow avenge all the current happennings with articles dated from 1993 to paint India as the new sponsor of terrorism, when it's Pakistan which is under fire. Talk about timing. Idleguy (talk) 06:41, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Well if that is the case then why [5] is dated 2006.I think Indian knew that a bombing will take place in 2008 ! .Whether India was sponsoring LTTE in 60 or 80 it doesn't matter what matter is that it was sponsoring thus it needs to included here. The were are other links,such as [www.fas.org] So read the article before slaughtering the facts.Remember the Jain Commission. Before it was just the embassy bombing now it moved to Kashmir.Are you going to stop or then it will be Hyderabad. If you have some reservation tag it as I have done it. User talk:Yousaf465

Introduction is a disaster

It should, at a minimum, attempt to state what state-sponsored terrorism is, per WP:MOS. Ray (talk) 02:48, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. However, it should be more than a definition (from something more than a dictionary) per WP:NOTDICDEF.VR _talk 04:09, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

That section applies to the article as a whole, not the first sentence. It is only good encyclopedic style to start with a definition of the topic. Ray (talk) 17:39, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Israel section and state terrorism vs state sponsored terrorism

The statement by the prime minister of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdogan speaks about "state terrorism" NOT "State-sponsored terrorism". To include an Israel section please provide evidence of the State of Israel providing support for non state actors who undertake acts of terrorism. Otherwise the content belongs in a different article, if it belongs any where at all.

I believe this artile and the State terrorism article do a decent job of explaining the difference between the two concepts. Only the concept of State-sponsored terrorism is a legitimate accusation against a state. States can do massive damage but there are other words for that, and well recognised international definitions and concepts in international law. The entire concept of articles on specific states and listing allegations of "state terrorism" is not encyclopedic - any military action could be called "state terrorism" by someone. The forks from this article providing evidence of states funding, training or otherwise supporting non state actors who comit terrorist acts is a different story and worth having.

Oboler (talk) 06:44, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Important link india

http://www.alternet.org/audits/112761/india_has_to_take_a_look_in_the_mirror_to_understand_the_mumbai_attacks/?page=entire

India section removed

A user just removed the India section, saying this was in accordance with talk.[6] Can someone point me to such a consensus?VR _talk 15:16, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Here [7]24.28.83.178 (talk) 02:53, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

They call it consensus.then what is this [8].User:Yousaf465

That is what one would call taquiyya.24.28.83.178 (talk) 11:04, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

We are not discussing religion here.User:Yousaf465

Removing material on state-terrorism not state-sponsored

A fair bit of material in here seemed to be about state-terrorism on the part of Israel, Apartheid South Africa and the Soviet Union, not about their sponsoring terrorism. All the material on SA, for example, seemed to be about government agencies taking part in assassinations not their sponsoring other organisations (e.g. UNITA) to carry out terrorism. Similarly the allegations against Israel were about terrorist acts committed by Israeli government agencies not their funding other organsiations to carry out terrorism for them. The first half of the Soviet Union was again about government terror whilst the second half was more about their support for the PLO etc. which is appropriate.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:16, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the distinction drawn above. However, if apartheid South Africa and the former Soviet Union practised state terrorism, shouldn't they appear in that article (Israel is already listed there)?---PJHaseldine (talk) 16:42, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to add stuff there, bearing in mind the sepecial need for referencing to reliable sources in battleground articles.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:18, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

NPov India

Npov has been added if somebody has some concerns they should discuss it here.User:Yousaf465

Synthesis

If you feel that Indian section contains Or then you should discuss it here.Instead of removing it.User:Yousaf465

Contast removal

LTTE and BLA are terrorist and both are/were being sponsored by India.AS Links support that.So edit it instead of removing it.See these links if you can't understand the edits.1.[ http://www.cfr.org/publication/17707/raw.html] 2[9] 3[10] 4.[11]User:Yousaf465

disputeed lines

India has also been extremely active in fomenting ethnic violence, breakdown of law and order and religious tensions in neighboring Pakistan. RAW agents have been caught by Pakistani security apparatus on a regular basis and put behind bars as India continues to ignore the existence of Indian nationals in Pakistani jails for fear of compromising its intelligence agency's actions. Two high-profile cases of Indian spies who languished in Pakistani jails have been those of Kashmir Singh and Sarabjit/Manjit Singh, with Kashmir Singh even acknowledging up on his handover to India that he was indeed a RAW-trained spy who had infiltrated into Pakistan to carry out sabotage & instigate ethnic violence while also claiming that 100 other RAW-spies remained behind bars in Pakistan.

Even though India, via Indian Armed Forces & RAW financing of Mukti Bahini terrorists aided significantly to the creation of Bangladesh; RAW activities did not subside once that objective was achieved. RAW was assigned to increase its activities in post-independence Bangladesh so as to make sure a weak & subdued Bangladesh could not pose the same threat to Indian designs in the region as Pakistan did. RAW has been consistently been accused by successive Bangladeshi governments and defence analysts for financing and arming the 'Shanti Bahini' - an organisation that is fighting for the creation of an independent state named Jhumland in Chittagong Hill Tracts region of Bangladesh.

User:Yousaf465

Ad reflist:

Dear reviewers, Kindly note the references contains an article by DAILY MAIL. Its actually Daily Mail (Pakistan) and not Daily Mail (UK)! I was mislead by te name...hence added this bit of info fo others. --KnowledgeHegemony ^talk 15:25, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

A question to Yousaf. How is the arrest of an Indian spy got anything to do with terrorism? --KnowledgeHegemony ^talk 15:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

That is same as asking what role enzymes have in biological reactions.User:Yousaf465

Previous version.[12].User:Yousaf465

Most of the sources provide the info that an Indian Spy was arrested. They say nothing about India supporting terrorism. The mediamonitor is just a paper clipping agency, they faithfully reproduced an article from Daily Mail (Pakistan). They have not done any additional fact checking. Thus, the only source for the info is Daily Mail (Pakistan) that is not a particularly reliable source, does not explain the source of their exclusive information and comes from a country with a long history of conflict with India. While the information might be notable enough to include it into the Research and Analysis Wing article as an attributed opinion it is certainly not reliable enough to include it here as a fact unless much more reliable sources of information are provided. I would recommend User:Yousaf465 to stop the disruption Alex Bakharev (talk) 07:55, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

What is mentioned above has been "clipped" from the article because it's disputed.Removing that is disruption then I don't know what is going to happen to wikipedia.

On to main part,CFR confirms this see [13],and for Indian support for LTTE see Jain Commission at http://www.thehindu.com/fline/fl1424/14240260.htm.And for ISPR's view see the latest here [14]and [15]. Remember that He is a soldier and can't speak in clear terms until ask to do so.User:Yousaf465

For further reading see.

1.[16] 2.[17] 3.Finally President himself speaking here [18].If you have doubt about BLA see[19]. User:Yousaf465

• Thanks for the references. I am still not convinced that accusations by an involved party are reliable enough to include the allegations as facts into this article. Although they are strong enough to include into the Research and Analysis Wing. I would like to hear from other users to see their opinion and where the consensus is Alex Bakharev (talk) 06:37, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
  • This addition was an example of POV-pusing. How? Clubbing various references together to prove a point, where many references does not support the point. For example, check this part: "with Kashmir Singh even acknowledging up on his handover to India that he was indeed a RAW-trained spy who had infiltrated into Pakistan to carry out sabotage & instigate ethnic violence while also claiming that 100 other RAW-spies remained behind bars in Pakistan.[2][3][4][5]", here ref 2(ndtv), 3(times of india) and 5(rediff) publishes the same news provided by PTI (Press Trust of India) and they say that Kashmir Singh acknowledged to be a spy and there are 100 others so in Pakistan and so; but the news story does not support/claim that they 'had infiltrated into Pakistan to carry out sabotage & instigate ethnic violence'. Spying is not terrorism and many countries have spies in other countries. I do not see how spying is found equivalent to terrorism by someone.--GDibyendu (talk) 06:52, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply.We can see other users other opinions also.User:Yousaf465 (talk)

• Come out of Kashmir singh.It's not about him that is why he has been removed from article.It's about indian support for LTTE and BLA.

1.[20]

2.http://www.thehindu.com/fline/fl1424/14240260.htm.

3.[21]User:Yousaf465 (talk)

[22]Another indian source.User:Yousaf465 (talk)

I would suggest that we keep the discussions contextual. This section discusses the text on two topics in two paragraphs and there is no mention of LTTE or BLA here. --GDibyendu (talk) 11:17, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Support for Mukti Bahini and BLA terroist link

Thanks for removing 'Support for Mukti Bahini' but you did made a mistake.The Dawn link labeling BLA as terrorist was to cite that this organization is indeed a terrorist organization.It wasn't for proving India's link with it.User:Yousaf465

Rv blocked user

Other editors have also contributed their edits doesn't come under same heading. And stop reverting sourced material.There is enough evidence that it need a mention here.User:Yousaf465

Recruited by RAW, trained by Army: LTTE

Even this is clubbing sources together ? Recruited by RAW, trained by Army: LTTE.User:Yousaf465 (talk)

United States of America

Why this article doesn´t talk about the terrorism of the USA?--88.0.45.70 (talk) 12:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Why would the nation fighting the war against state sponsors of terror be on the list of state sponsors of terror? Are they fighting themselves? Try to make your contributions make sense next time. With an IP address out of Spain it is no surprise.

The answer is that someone removed without explanation the section dealing with allegations on this matter. I have now restored that section.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:24, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Pakistan

The Pakistan section is very big compared with the others. Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 15:24, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree... The information is a little out of order as well... It goes back and forth between the western and eastern borders... First Taliban, then kashmir then back to taliban then back to LET... It needs to be sorted out... The info should be a little more brief and to the point... Adil your (talk) 15:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree again. Potentially there are a lot more countries to be added. We should follow WP:summary style and have no more than three or four short paragraphs per country with separate article sfor those that have enough material to merit it.--Peter cohen (talk) 22:54, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

The Pakistan section is absurd. Looks like Indian editors have been working exceptionally hard at it. Many of the articles cited are from non-credible sources and some are even from Op-Ed articles. I smell a clear WP:NPOV violation. And to top it off, the article has been made 'semi-protected' so that no one can make it more balanced. Lets be clear about this, someone has to take a stance and allot each country a small sizable para for its involvement in 'state-sponsored' terrorism instead of having one country take up half the space while others barely get a 3-sentence mention.Ron Pitz (talk) 23:59, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

India

I have restored the Indian Section as follows...

1) BLA has been noted to carry out various terrorist attacks in Pakistan such as carrying out Bomb blasts, Kidnapping, Assassinations e.t.c....

2) Newspaper clipings have been referenced in other sections as well, then why delete it from the Indian section...

3) Lahore terror attack was a very big incident, its details are worth mentioning since it is alleged that Raw sponsored those attacks....

4) Regarding the paragraph of LTTE, the government not taking steps is not the important line, read the next lkine where it says that these government officails actually sponsered the terrorists....

I am open for corrections...Please give your constructive inputs....Adil your (talk) 04:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I can't actually see the restoration you report. Please bear in mind that we're wanting to control the size of country sections per the comments on the Pakistan section above, though I haven't seen that yet being reduced. Also please bear in mind that at certain periods Pakistan was under military dictatorship and various freedoms were reduced. Newspaper articles from those times are unlikely to be regarded as reliable sources except for how the regime wanted things to be seen.

It is probably best to argue here in detail for ther text you want included first as other editors seem keen to chop things out and we're going to have to achieve consensus through discussion in the end.--Peter cohen (talk) 18:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Hahaha, so silly of me.... I forgot to edit the page... I guess I was too involved with another article... I am actually surprised that all the editors who chopped off the indian section were all Indians, it looks a bit like POV to me... Yet they seem a bit reluctant when editing out the unnecessary bits in other sections... BTW the Media in Pakistan is completely free as far as I know.... Calling it biased is untrue, and biased towards a dictator is a really a shocking remark... Dawn is actually the no.1 english newspaper in Pakistan and is pretty reliable.... Anyway, I don't know why the India section has to be so small when all the other sections are at least as long as three paragraphs... Adil your (talk) 19:36, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Just a suggestion... Libya section is a pretty standard size section... I think we should take it as a standard when looking at the length of the sections from now on.... Adil your (talk) 19:43, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

That's the rough sort of size. BTW, I think that 8, or even 5, references is a bit excessive. I can see you might want to adopt a belt-and-braces approach when you think you might be reverted, but it does affect readability. Let's see what the initial response of other editors is and then look to trim the references once we reach a stable version.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:59, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia has problems with partisan editorship in articles related to all sorts of disputes. I've seen admins strongly suggesting that people ought to start WP:Writing for the enemy in relation to another nationalist dispute - I think the Israeli-Palestinian one and ARBCOM have demanded an enforced resolution to both the dispute on the naming of the Ireland articles and on the use of the "Judea and Samaria" terminology. Sooner or later they will progress to other conflicts including the India-Pakistan one.--Peter cohen (talk) 22:08, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) It may seem like a partisan editor problem to the two of you but the reality is that the sourcing for the material added to the India subsection is atrocious. Take for example the statement about Indian support for Balochistan rebels. It may well be the case that India is pumping arms and ammo into the region but the support provided in the article is as follows:

1. one article (this) that is presented as stating the pakistani government but really only says that a Sri Lankan paper says that RAW is supporting the Balochistan rebels.
2. one article (this) from an online news site (is this supposed to be WP:RS) that attributes 'media reports' and a pakistani online news service (news international) for a mostly speculative story. How is one to interpret Media reports on Tuesday did not directly quote Musharraf, except saying he did not rule out a foreign hand in the developments in Balochistan, and it was alleged and not citing any source in particular? Are we to conclude that unattributed speculative statements published in a single newspaper are to be given a hefty weight by wikipedia?
3. one source (this which is apparently a travel blog of sorts that says that a Sri Lankan paper is saying that .....

One hopes that your standards for inclusion of material in wikipedia is a bit higher than this. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 17:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

The third source actually cites the first. I've therefore removed the third and placed the first where it was as evidence of Sri-Lankan media making accusations.

The initials IANS at the end of the second source indicate that it is from the Indo-Asian News Service, a reliable source. Googling on the title shows that this article is used by several services. Unfortunately the IANS archive requires a log in to read. So I can't cite the original. Given the next paragraph in our article contains multiple sources for further Pakistani accusations against RAW, I don't think that the vagueness is an important issue.

Oh and I carefully have not said that one side or the other is being partisan here. I did however find this edit odd, given that the BLA is listed as terrorist not just by Pakistan but by the UK (and I think the US).--Peter cohen (talk) 19:38, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we should be blindly quoting speculative news articles that are referring to other inaccessible news articles, especially when this article itself says that the other article 'alleges' without 'citing any source in particular'. This should not pass muster in any respectable source of information. Do I need to point out that the next paragraph in the article contains multiple sources that say the same thing (that the pakistani police allege that they foiled a terrorist plot of humungous magnitude and that that these alleged terrorists were funded by RAW). The multiplicity of sources means nothing. Perhaps my ideas are quaint and antiquated but an 'independent source' that lends authenticity to some of these claims would be nice. (BTW, here I see that it is the CIA that is funding the Baluchis, no mention of an Indian connection. I'm not saying there is or isn't Indian support for the BLA but rather that we'll have a hard time separating facts and fiction if every time anyone alleges something it shows up on a wikipedia page!)

Re the YellowMonkey comment: I don't see any sources that state the the UK and US have labeled the BLA a terrorist organization. Even if they had, the weakness of the current sources for these two sentences is quite obvious. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 20:01, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I guess your problem is with allegations of Police and Intelligence of Pakistan cited in the newspaper... But you must keep in mind that almost all the countries mentioned in this article, have only been accused, not proven to be sponsoring terrorists... Almost all the citations in the the entire article are allegations not proof... So as far as I can see, its alright to put an allegation if you can provide the source... Or you would have to delete the the entire article like YellowMonkey [23] has been deleting the indian section, just because it contains allegations.... Adil your (talk) 14:32, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Re the YellowMonkey comment: How can YellowMonkey being an admin do this edit and state that "these Balochis aren't widely recognised as terrorists unlike Jihadists and LTTE".... Shouldn't he do some research before Editing an encyclopeida....Visit this...this and this and you will get the answer to your question... Adil your (talk) 16:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

How big are the Taliban compared to BLA? How big are these alleged spies that never did anything compared to the Mumbai attacks??? What a joke YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 18:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

So you do accept that BLA is supported by the Indian agencies... Now whether it is small or big doesn't matter... What matters is that india is actually sponsoring a group which is labeled as a terrorist organization internationally... Hence putting it in the article makes perfect sense... Adil your (talk) 19:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

A terrorist is a terrorist, whether big or small..... And this is no excuse that because BLA is smaller then Taliban hence it is OK for India to supports it.... You are saying that If People in USA die then it is a big issue but if BLA kills innocent Pakistanis then it is not a big issue because BLA is a smaller terrorist organization.... And if it is so harmless then why is it labeled as terrorist internationally... Adil your (talk) 19:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

It's undue weight. If your section is as big as that some of the rest need to be 10X bigger. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 01:12, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Also the sources are weak and don't point to a reliable link between India and the BLA. An 'expert' says that she's been told by a reliable government source and a loose statement by the Pakistani President don't add up to a lot. About the massive Lahore terror plot, the less said the better. And your 'Holbrooke' remarks were not made by Holbrooke but by a 'former intelligence officer' and the same article goes on to quote a South Asia expert who says that all that does not square with 'his observations and sources even though most Pakistanis will say it is true'. We can scarcely build an encyclopedia based on unverified statements made by 'former intelligence officers'. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 02:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

First, I'm uncomfortable with the use of a term like "state sponsored terrorism" in an encyclopedia and think verbiage indicating that this article documents only documents accusations and doesn't document, as fact, instances where countries have sponsored "terror". That said, even these accusations need to be credible and backed up by just sources emanating from a solitary country.

Now, as far as User:Adil your's inclusion of BLA. Of the sources provided, one is a Pakistani newspaper, and the other was written by a Pakistani correspondent of a fringe Sri Lankan newspaper. That, in and of itself, doesn't preclude it from being included; however, there are no verifiable sources from other nations that have assets in the region, including the US, UK and the UN indicating India's involvement. In addition, the Asian Tribune article is incredulous and provides no sources for its presentation of the usual Pakistani "crusader-kafir-zionist" conspiracy theories that are cooked up. Hardly WP:RS.

The user has also unearthed a bunch of "Indian sources" about India's "involvement" in Pakistan. To be clear, all these sources are doing are reporting Pakistani claims of India's involvement, and not reporting India's "involvement" as a matter of fact. Which brings me to Laura Rozen's roundtable on Foreignpolicy.com. Laura's article was the subject of much ridicule in India, and came hot on the heels of her other diatribe against India in which she claimed that India's "stealth lobbying" ensured that Holbrooke's portfolio in Af-Pak didn't include India. Never mind that no lobby so far, not even the powerful Israeli lobby, has been very successful in their efforts in influencing US foreign policy. Furthermore, perhaps User:Adil should put aside his enthusiasm to paint India as the Evil Empire and actually read the article he quotes from. Nowhere in the article does it say that Richard Holbrooke stated that "[t]he Indians are up to their necks in supporting the Taliban against the Pakistani government in Afghanistan and Pakistan". The article clearly says that the quote was attributed to an "unnamed intelligence source". Not Holbrooke. The official was unnammed probably, because he or she doesn't exist.

I will gladly review any reliable sources (including Pakistani sources, in conjunction with neutral sources backing up their claims) that support the user's claim on India's alleged "terrorism" in Pakistan. The fact that the user has only unearthed Pakistani sources, or Indian/Sri Lankan newspapers quoting Pakistani sources shows that there really isn't much there to write about. AreJay (talk) 04:36, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Adil your, I request you not to continue POV pushing related in India section. For the obvious reasons, please add only those backed by reliable and neutral sources. For the same reasons, It is unaccepatable to source these allegations by Pakistani newspapers and channels. Another humble request, please do not waste everybody's time fighting for this single article. There are 100s of Pakistan related articles that needs significant improvement of quality. Lots of Pakistan related stuff are still unwritten in Wikipedia. Write them and improve them. I guarantee my support anything related to this. Please make Wikipedia a better place rather than continuing the prejudiced lobbying here -- Tinu Cherian - 06:10, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

"It is unaccepatable to source these allegations by Pakistani newspapers and channels" So does this mean that the pakistani article needs a massive overhaul as it is infested with Indian newspapers secondly your second stupid sentence "There are 100s of Pakistan related articles that needs significant improvement of quality" yes and most of these articles have been vandalized by Indian pov pushers its Adils decision what to edit and what not to edit you cannot simply say go elsewhere as it seems to me you yourself have a pov and cannot stand anything critical of Hindustan 86.153.128.250 (talk) 14:03, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Ironic to see India-sympathetic lads ganging up on one Pakistan-sympathetic user. The entire section on India, written by an Indian user was deleted by user YellowMonkey citing extremely ridiculous reasons. And it is quite paradoxical to see users stressing the need to not quote any Pakistani sources with regards to Indian-sponsored terrorism; while they have nothing to say about the Pakistan section in the article which is littered with Indian sources. Certainly WP:POV violation. I will be speaking to a few admins with regards to this Indian gangup going on in here.Aaron Pris (talk) 06:42, 17 July 2009 (UTC) .. The above A/c was created just 3 days ago ! -- Tinu Cherian - 10:31, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I thought this was a sock of Truthseekerx, but I decided to let it go for a day or two to see what it was up to. Guess it was actually him. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 12:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think I have anything left to say now.... Aaron Pris said everything there was to be said... Adil your (talk) 12:29, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Biased Sources

Quoting from highly biased sources like www.pro-pakistan.com, nation.com.pk , awaz.tv, apakistannews.com to create contents is unacceptable. Arjun (talk) 19:47, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

What do you say about timesofindia.com, dnaindia.com, rediff.com, expressindia.com.... Adil your (talk) 12:44, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

We should also remove sections from the Pakistan section as it is loaded with Indian source Undue weight also 86.153.128.250 (talk) 13:11, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Off to AN/I

I'm fed up with the point of view pushing to do with the India section. Yes, some of Adil's sources are biased but the current version where it states that India was only accused of supporting the Tamil Tigers is ridiculous. People are deleting vitually everything on the claim that some sources are biased, but Adil's over-the-top sourcing means that things aren't just referenced to the criticised sources. The cfr source also supports the statements that RAW was involved with terrorist groups in Pakistan and Burma.--Peter cohen (talk) 11:38, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

If Pakistani sources are considered biased for Indian section then why does Pakistan section contains so many Indian sources, shouldn't they also be treated the same way.... I am willing to have a discussion on any source if is considered to be biased, but deleting the entire section packed with 26 refs is no way to develop a consensus.... Adil your (talk) 12:35, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Indian sources used in Pakistani section

After reading the rants of Indian pov pushers about using Pakistani sources let me show you some of the lovely neutral and reliable Indian sources which are derived from “stupid tabloids” quote from the neutral admin YelllowMonkey here we go:

http://www.zeenews.com/news395435.html LOL Zee news

http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/mar/21spec.htm : INDIAN SOURCE!!! used twice

http://www.angelfire.com/al4/terror/isi_kashmir.htm: What the hell is this?

http://www.indianembassy.org/new/parliament_dec_13_01.htm#STATEMENT%20MADE%20BY%20HOME%20MINISTER,%20L.%20K.%20ADVANI%20ON%20THE%20TERRORIST%20ATTACK%20ON%20PARLIAMENT%20HOUSE%20ON%20DECEMBER%2013,%202001 : Info from the embassy of India yes very reliable indeed

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iFEN4iCXAzdJD6q9utu6C9uKcJjQD968NA280 : Dead source

http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/oct/16quake1.htm Rediff Indian source amazing

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/China_accuses_Pak_of_training_terrorists/articleshow/1925630.cms : Times of India here we go again

http://www.cfr.org/publication/15422/ Info written by Jayshree Bajoria obvious Indian

http://www.expressindia.com/news/ie/daily/20000315/ifr15044.html Indian express highly reliable source as usual

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/isi-may-be-behind-hyderabad-blasts-jana-reddy/47473-3.html Usual Indian source

Conclusion is that Pakistani sources can be used whenever wherever if Indian source are dotted around everywhere then Pakistani sources will also be used in the Indian section the biased pro Indian camp can take a hike 86.153.128.250 (talk) 13:34, 17 July 2009 (UTC)