Talk:Syrian towns and villages depopulated in the Arab–Israeli conflict

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Article name

No issues with content, provided WP:RS, however the title should probably be changed to reflect current WP naming on similar articles, like the List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus, which is mentioned in the "See also" section. --nsaum75 ¡שיחת! 16:12, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I thought about that but, Quneitra for example was demolished in 1974, and some other villages were demolished in 1971. And I dont know if some were demolished after the six day war in 1967. More sources are indeed needed, there should be at least 25-30 more villages to ad to the list. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:18, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe there should be a notation of the year included next to villages for which WP:RS year can be found, example: "Quneitra (1974)" --nsaum75 ¡שיחת! 16:22, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Requested move

List of Syrian towns and villages destroyed by Israel → List of Syrian towns and villages depopulated by Israel — To remove potential POV and standardize per existing articles such as List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus and List of villages depopulated during the Arab-Israeli conflict. nsaum75 ¡שיחת! 19:10, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Discussion

The article should be renamed and moved to List of Syrian towns and villages depopulated by Israel due to potential POV in the title name and to conform to the names of similar articles ie: List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus and List of villages depopulated during the Arab-Israeli conflict. --nsaum75 ¡שיחת! 19:13, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The current title is POV and chosen intentionally to push a political agenda. Furthermore, it is not a list.--Gilabrand (talk) 19:37, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Its a list, so please do not ad anything else that has nothing to do with the article topic, as you did.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:15, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but it is NOT a list, and it wasn't, long before I got there. Don't tell me what to add or not to add, SupremeDeliciousness. The whole article deserves to be speedily deleted. It is based on falsehoods, such as the claim that Quneitra was destroyed by Israel. On October 21, 1973, for example, the Times reported that Quneitra was "a bombed-out military town the Syrians lost to the Israelis ." --Gilabrand (talk) 20:42, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is your own opinion. I have created this list, now please do not transform it into something else, there are over 100 villages in this list. If you do not want to contribute to this list then maybe you shouldn't edit it.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:45, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Where is the POV? All the towns and villages in the article were destroyed by Israel. This article can not be compared to List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus because some of those city's were taken over and still exist today like Ashkelon and Beersheba for example. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:40, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If they exist today how can you say they have been "destroyed"? Stellarkid (talk) 20:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
When did I say that Ashkelon and Bersheeba were destroyed? You have confused the Syrian list with the Palestinian list. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:34, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Make it consistent with other article titles, and get rid of the anti-Israel bias. --99.253.230.182 (talk) 21:35, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support per 99.253.230.182 and agree with Gilabrand that a speedy delete would be appropriate. Stellarkid (talk) 21:50, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The towns and villages have indeed been destroyed by Israel. They existed before they were occupied in 1967, and they no longer exist, while their inhabitants live, for the most part, elsewhere in Syria following their expulsion. The fact that another article is possibly misnamed is no reason to misname this one too. Regarding Quneitra, I saw a film many years ago which established beyond doubt that it was still standing for many years after 1967, but was deliberately destroyed by Israel before a disengagement agreement. I will see if I can locate this. The unspecified Times report may be a reliable source that Quneitra was "bombed-out" in 1973, or at the time when the article was written; but it tells us nothing about its status in 1967. RolandR 22:51, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

oppose rename of article be no more than attempt to deny arab culture and promote zionist propaganda that seek to discredit horrible genocide and other atrocity commit by israeli government. in fact some one should change change name of other two article mentioned by nsaum that say "depopulate". no thing "depopulate" about them, they savagely destroy at hand of brutal israel government! Ani medjool (talk) 23:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment It would be helpful if reliable sources were cited by either side in this argument, particularly for the myriad towns and villages other than Quneitra. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 00:26, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sources: http://www.golan-marsad.org/pdfs/Israeli_Settlements.pdf http://www.golan-marsad.org/pdfs/Report-_Separated_Families.pdf http://www.badil.org/en/documents/category/33-ongoing-displacement?download=586%3Amarsad-israel-s-gross-violations-of-international-law-in-the-occupied-syrian-golan the list in the article is not perfect, but I will try to fix it tomorrow. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:48, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment You seem to have ignored the "reliable" part of "reliable sources". And of course, we have ani medjool joining in here with some more of his bullshit to top it all off. 99.253.230.182 (talk) 02:07, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

oppose. "Depopulate" and "destroy" are synonymous (by mutual implication) in the case of towns. Therefore, the only question is which one is a more common English word, and clearly "destroy" wins. Homunq (talk) 04:25, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To destroy a village is to physically destroy its buildings, whereas depopulation means to empty a village of its previous residents. While the the destruction of a village almost always results in its depopulation, depopulation may be the result of many other causes, and the two are hardly synonymous. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:49, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The existing title is tendentious. It prejudges and presents a conclusion at the outset, one that the discussion here demonstrates is far from clear-cut and neutral. This is not the first time S.D. has originated an article with a tendentious title (the previous one was speedily deleted). Dump the strongly biased title; better yet, delete the article. The same, of course, goes for the closely-related Template:Syrian towns and villages destroyed by Israel. Hertz1888 (talk) 05:36, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Name change to List of villages depopulated during the Arab-Israeli conflict. Off2riorob (talk) 16:38, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as the new title is less POV and more accurate given that not all village were destroyed. And I agree that if no reliable sources can be found soon this article should be deleted, but for the time being a tag would suffice. Pantherskin (talk) 16:53, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose As far as I know, all of the Syrian towns and villages depopulated in 1967 were also destroyed. I see no reason why this salient fact should not be mentioned. Tiamuttalk 18:06, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
PS. Baruch Kimmerling writes Israel conquered the territory [... and expelled about 80,000 Syrian Arab peasants before completely levelling almost 130 villages]. Tiamuttalk 18:10, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Vast majority of this list is unreferenced - either OR or pure speculation? Even for the few purportedly substantiated instances, this list provides no context, is clearly being used to push a propagandist POV and is inherently un-encyclopedic - can put the information for which appropriate reliable sources exist in the relevant existing article about the Arab-Israeli conflict.Chefallen (talk) 05:28, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

discussion of references

Footnote #1 is a paper by Uri Davis with the disclaimer "Views and interpretations in this paper are those of the author and should not be attributed to the Centre for Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies or the University of Durham." Is Uri Davis a RS? Stellarkid (talk) 22:08, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The only info used from that source is from chapter two were the info is collected from the 1965-1966 statical data of the Syrian Arab Republic, and is not a view or an interpretation.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:34, 9 November 2009 (UTC)#[reply]
Uri Davis is a reputed academic, with appointments at the Universities of Bradford, Durham and Exeter. Of course he is a reliable source. RolandR 22:43, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
He is an activist. His WP bio says : "A member of Fatah since 1984, he was elected to the Revolutionary Council for the Palestinian party in 2009." Somehow that wouldn't seem to me to qualify on the face of it. Stellarkid (talk) 02:58, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thousands of academics are members of political parties. This does not, in itself, invalidate their academic work. Since these universities employed, and in some cases continue to employ, Davis, thewy must be satisfied with his academic credentials, regardless of his political positions. That should be enough for us; don't try to institute a witch-hunt. RolandR 08:37, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Different accounts on whether Golan inhabitants were forcefully expelled or whether they fled (1997-2002) Stellarkid (talk) 03:22, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect many of the so-called Syrian villages on this list are a fabrication. Ad-dananir, for example, is in Jordan. See [[1]]--Gilabrand (talk) 04:34, 10 November 2009 (UTC)Uweinat seems to be a mountain in Libya. See here [2]. Other names, like Qtua sh ali, Amert Lferj and Kreij al-wawi seem to be made up. --Gilabrand (talk) 05:58, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Many places in the Arab world, and the rest of the world have the same name. There are 15-20 towns in USA only that have the name "Lebanon". --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:23, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gilabrand tampering with the article

Gilabrand is tampering with the article by removing source that Israel destroyed the villages, and removed several templates, categories and an image without explanation. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Syrian_towns_and_villages_destroyed_by_Israel&action=historysubmit&diff=324906149&oldid=324905329 --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:40, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

AfD

I have put this article up for deletion,since - contrary to what was suggested by Gilabrand and Stellarkid - it does not seem to meet the criteria for speedy deletion. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 00:12, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Ani medjool appears to be a sock of Supreme Deliciousness. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Supreme Deliciousness. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 00:56, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, didn't know there were two categories for delete, "speedy" and otherwise. Stellarkid (talk) 02:54, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Question

Does anyone know where I can get a list of the 4,000 Kurdish villages destroyed by Iraq during the 1986-89 Al-Anfal Campaign? So far I have only found 13: Sergaloo, Mergepan, Helede, Chalawa, Gwezele, Chokhmakh, Hellede, Bergaloo, Kanitoo, Servan, Awaze, Chinare and Kolbjika? Chesdovi (talk) 11:38, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More infomation?

Where can I get more infomation about the villages of Ayan, Mijzan, Saifan and Wajba which were completely destroyed by Yemen in 2008? Chesdovi (talk) 11:48, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Try the Human Rights Watch report here. And stop disrupting this article's talk page. Huon (talk) 19:47, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A list for Darfur?

Is there a list of the 1,000+ villages destroyed by the Islamic Arab Sudan in Darfur anywhere? I have only found one: Furawiya Chesdovi (talk) 11:57, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Utterly irrelevant to this article, and the question borders on a WP:POINT violation. If it was meant seriously, try the reference desk. Huon (talk) 19:39, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See also

I've removed most of the links added by Chesdovi:

In my opinion they're irrelevant to this list; the cause of destruction/abandonment is too dissimilar. That's as if whaling would carry a see-also link to exploding whale because both articles concern dead whales. In conjunction with Chesdovi's latest edits on this talk page, I also have difficulties assuming good faith: On the one hand these links give the impression that villages in Syria are abandoned anyway, so the Israeli involvement is nothing notable. The talk page entries give the impression that everybody is engaged in destroying villages, so again the Israelis also doing it is nothing notable. On the contrary, the deliberate destruction of villages by Israel would probably be a violation of the laws of war, of human rights and maybe even of Israeli laws. One example was noted, investigated and condemned by the UN, which alone makes it more notable than either the abandonment of villages for economic reasons or the other destructions in (civil) wars (which might still merit articles or lists of their own, but probably are even harder to source than this list). Huon (talk) 20:34, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Depopulated before the 1967 war?

  • I read statements that many of these villages on the Golan Heights were evacuated by the Syrian army well before the 1967 war, when they set up their large Golan heights military zone. Not by Israel.Anthony Appleyard (talk)
Please provide a source. This article lists those which were destroyed by Israel. Maybe we can also have a page List of Syrian towns and villages evacuated by Syria? Chesdovi (talk) 10:39, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
From List of villages depopulated during the Arab–Israeli conflict :

In addition to the villages evacuated or where the residents were expelled in the West Bank during the Six-Day War, over 100,000 Golan Heights residents were evacuated from about 25 villages whether on orders of the Syrian government or through fear of an attack by the Israeli Defense Forces and forced expulsion after the cease fire. UN Doc A/8089 5 October 1970]

If the residents were indeed removed, not to return, long before "destruction" occured, this page name gives the wrong impression. Words like "Abandoned" and "deserted", not "destroyed", spring to mind. Chesdovi (talk) 10:50, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If a village is "abandoned" or "deserted", then the buildings presumably still exist, awaiting the return of the original inhabitants. If, as even Chesdovi seems to agree above, they have been destroyed, then this is an appropriate name.RolandR 11:30, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, this is not an appropriate name for the simple reason that there is no proof Israel destroyed them - if they ever existed to begin with. Quneitra, for example, was used as an Israeli army base and frequently shelled by the Syrians before it was returned to Syria in 1974. So at least part of the damage cannot be attributed to Israel.--Gilabrand (talk) 11:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Prescisley, over the years, without maintenance, all properties are exposed to the weather and are destroyed by nature, as with the Dead Cities of Syria. Chesdovi (talk) 12:11, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nuclear reactor

The nuclear reactor added by user Gilbrand is not appropriate for this "List of Syrian towns and villages destroyed by Israel" article. If no evidence is presented that this nuclear reactor is in fact a village or a town, it should be removed from the article.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:21, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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