Talk:Tulsa race massacre: Difference between revisions

Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 04:51, 23 November 2023

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Tulsa race massacre article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3: 60 days

A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on May 31, 2012 and May 31, 2021.

This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

African diaspora B‑class High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject African diaspora, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of African diaspora on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.African diasporaWikipedia:WikiProject African diasporaTemplate:WikiProject African diasporaAfrican diaspora articles
B	This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Crime and Criminal Biography B‑class High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
B	This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Death B‑class Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
B	This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Disaster management B‑class Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Disaster managementWikipedia:WikiProject Disaster managementTemplate:WikiProject Disaster managementDisaster management articles
B	This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Discrimination B‑class High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination articles
B	This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.

Firefighting B‑class Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Firefighting, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to firefighting on Wikipedia! If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.FirefightingWikipedia:WikiProject FirefightingTemplate:WikiProject FirefightingFirefighting articles
B	This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

Military history: North America / United States C‑class

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

C

This article has been rated as C-class on the project's quality scale.

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	North American military history task force
	United States military history task force

Oklahoma: Tulsa B‑class Top‑importance

	Oklahoma portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Oklahoma, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of Oklahoma on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OklahomaWikipedia:WikiProject OklahomaTemplate:WikiProject OklahomaOklahoma articles
B	This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by Task-force Tulsa (assessed as Top-importance).

Crime and Criminal Biography: Serial, mass, and spree killers B‑class

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
B	This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Serial Killer task force (assessed as Low-importance).

United States History B‑class High‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of the United States on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United States HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject United States HistoryTemplate:WikiProject United States HistoryUnited States History articles

B This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.

High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject United States History To-do:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Cleanup : United States History articles needing attention
Infobox : United States History articles needing infoboxes
Stubs : Stub-Class United States History articles, Category:United States history stubs
Other :
- Place either of the following WikiProject banners on United States History-related articles and assess:
  - {{WikiProject United States History|class=|importance=}}
  - {{WikiProject United States|class=|importance=|UShistory=Yes|UShistory-importance=}}

Template:Vital article

It is requested that an image or photograph of Contemporary photo of the Greenwood district and an additional photo of the memorial for the victims of the Tulsa Race Riot be included in this article to improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific media request template where possible.

Wikipedians in Oklahoma may be able to help!

The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites.

Upload

This article has previously been nominated to be moved.

Discussions:

RM, Tulsa race riot → Tulsa Race Massacre of 1919, No move, April 28, 2017
RM, Tulsa race riot → Tulsa race massacre, Move reverted, November 20, 2018
RM, Tulsa race riot → Tulsa race massacre, No consensus, August 8, 2019.
RM, Tulsa race riot → Tulsa Race Massacre, Request declined, October 15, 2019
RM, Tulsa race riot → Tulsa Massacre of 1921, Request declined, January 5, 2020
RM, Tulsa race riot → Tulsa race massacre, Moved, February 7, 2020

This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 4 times. The weeks in which this happened:

Section sizes

Section size for Tulsa race massacre (56 sections)
Section name	Byte count	Section total
(Top)	14,803	14,803
Background	8,027	8,027
Monday, May 30 (Memorial Day)	35	3,485
Encounter in the elevator	2,148	2,148
Brief investigation	1,302	1,302
Tuesday, May 31	21	17,616
Arrest of Rowland	1,756	1,756
Newspaper coverage	3,508	3,508
Stand-off at the courthouse	4,801	4,801
Taking up arms	4,833	4,833
Outbursts of violence	2,697	2,697
Wednesday, June 1	1,371	15,485
Fires begin	2,944	2,944
Daybreak	1,371	1,371
Attack by air	5,039	5,039
Arrival of National Guard troops	4,760	4,760
Aftermath	15	36,817
Casualties	9,899	9,899
Property losses	954	954
Identities of the African American victims	3,424	3,424
Public Safety Committee	856	856
Rebuilding	4,793	4,793
Tulsa Union Depot	4,917	4,917
1921 grand jury investigation	37	6,454
Allegations of corruption	1,476	1,476
John A. Gustafson	4,941	4,941
Breaking the silence	5,505	5,505
Survivors	269	17,206
Olivia Hooker	2,458	2,458
Eldoris McCondichie	2,193	2,193
George Monroe	1,356	1,356
Mary E. Jones Parrish	2,456	2,456
Lessie Benningfield ("Mother Randle")	1,785	1,785
Hal Singer	2,053	2,053
Essie Lee Johnson Beck	1,550	1,550
Vernice Simms	1,543	1,543
Lena Eloise Taylor Butler	1,543	1,543
Tulsa Race Massacre Commission	2,243	2,243
Post-commission actions	29	24,122
Search for mass graves	10,888	10,888
Reconciliation	3,331	3,331
Survivors' lawsuit	2,526	2,526
John Hope Franklin Reconciliation Park	1,609	1,609
Renewed calls for restitution	5,739	5,739
President Biden's visit	1,244	1,244
Tulsa Historical Society and Museum	1,135	1,135
Present-day Black Wall Street	1,427	1,427
In popular culture	63	13,324
Literature	3,747	3,747
Film and television	7,663	7,663
Music and art	1,851	1,851
See also	527	527
References	289	289
Bibliography	4,909	4,909
Further reading	3,274	3,274
External links	2,786	2,786
Total	168,719	168,719

Sarah Page, the 17-year-old white elevator operator

Sarah Page was in fact 21 years old. Ref: https://www.centerforpublicsecrets.org/post/the-notorious-sarah-page 92.12.213.166 (talk) 14:12, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is no other substantiation of this; Most sources, including Wikipedia, say she was 17. Doubtful that the above link is considered a trusted source. Wikipedia has a newspaper clipping that says 17.2601:645:4300:EE90:405C:C41F:FF4F:4A73 (talk) 22:41, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Most sources, including Wikipedia, say she was 17" oh well then. Herostratus (talk) 06:17, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, the Center for Public Secrets is definitely on a crusade. If there was some reason for them wanting to present the person as 21 instead of 17 (which I suppose is possible... maybe to present her as a grown woman who ought to be able to handle things like this and is liable as an adult for her actions and was more likely to have been deliberately evil rather than just scared, or whatever), then I wouldn't trust them not to. That's in addition to not knowing how rigorous their fact-checking is, thus simple error is also a possibility. Herostratus (talk) 15:27, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's really just a simple question of the facts. And the evidence. The above mentioned article includes photos of a newspaper notice, marriage documents and a gravestone, each one of which is good rock-solid evidence. The obvious fact is that she was 21 not 17 as mis-reported at the time and repeated ever since. Probably best to change the text to 'reportedly then aged 17 but in fact 21' with a ref to the above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.7.105 (talk) 16:09, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Reasonable point. We do have people whose birth date is disputed -- Gene Tierney, Sonny Liston, Stan Kenton, Jackie DeShannon, many other I'm sure. The usual solution is we usually say "December 7, 1942[refs] or December 7, 1943[refs]". If we're stone cold sure that we know the date but that's there's a false date floating around, we would be like "December 7, 1942[Note A]" and Note A would explain the situation. Or maybe no note, just explain the situation in the body text. (And leave a hidden note for future editors, and/or possibly a FAQ note on the talk page.)

For the latter, we need to have good refs for 21, and have no good refs for 17. For the former, we'd need to have good refs for both.

I don't consider the Center for Public Secrets reliable. I personally consider Find A Grave reliable for pictures of headstones (but little else), but the Wikipedia considers Find A Grave unreliable for everything, as the content is user uploads and there's zero fact-checking (and the photographer could have the wrong person, or even in theory be deliberately hoaxing). We'd need a photo from Tulsa government or the Tulsa Globe-Democrat or something like that.

So you're going to need to find some better refs. What you have isn't even worth a note. I have insufficient confidence that the guy didn't just make it up or just heard it somewhere. Herostratus (talk) 18:45, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"The commission"

Lead says "The commission" without context. --2001:1C06:19CA:D600:2A57:8028:8B22:2039 (talk) 16:16, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wording

The last paragraph of the background section starts with: "[...] Tulsa also supported a large number of affluent, educated, and professional African-American residents". As a non-native speaker, I suppose this is meant to convey that they had expertise in their respective professional discipline, but I find the wording weird, it sounds like being black is a job in itself. Wouldn't "highly skilled" be a better wording? Pygy (talk) 07:31, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No inclusion of "white" accounts under the survivor section?

There seems to be some quite detailed and useful testimonies of black survivors under the survivor section, giving a good historical perspective. However, why do we not have any accounts from white survivors explaining their experience? 203.46.132.214 (talk) 04:51, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 60: / Line 60: @@
 The last paragraph of the [[Tulsa race massacre#Background|background]] section starts with: ''"[...] Tulsa also supported a large number of affluent, educated, and '''professional''' African-American residents"''. As a non-native speaker, I suppose this is meant to convey that they had expertise in their respective professional discipline, but I find the wording weird, it sounds like being black is a job in itself. Wouldn't ''"highly skilled"'' be a better wording? [[User:Pygy|Pygy]] ([[User talk:Pygy|talk]]) 07:31, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
+== No inclusion of "white" accounts under the survivor section? ==
+There seems to be some quite detailed and useful testimonies of black survivors under the survivor section, giving a good historical perspective. However, why do we not have any accounts from white survivors explaining their experience? [[Special:Contributions/203.46.132.214|203.46.132.214]] ([[User talk:203.46.132.214|talk]]) 04:51, 23 November 2023 (UTC)