Talk:Whataboutism

Some thoughts about this article:

'1)' Isn't the term "whataboutism" itself a propaganda term?

'2)' While you get thousands of hits when searching for "Soviet propaganda" on Google Scholar, you get only _four_ hits when searching for "whataboutism", all of them from 2012 or later. All the references did either lead to the Economist article from 2008, or to some article written after 2008, which did not give any references where it had the term from. The earliest mention that I found was this blog post from 2007: http://www.edwardlucas.com/blog/page/39/

• Edward Lucas's blog post from 2007 was actually citing The Economist's article from 2007: http://www.economist.com/node/10049754 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.105.139.124 (talk) 05:26, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

If "whataboutism" is such a "famous" Soviet propaganda tactic, why isn't the term mentioned in the relevant literature (scholarly texts about propaganda)? If it is mentioned in the relevant literature, but I just didn't find it because I'm too bad at finding the references, would someone please provide citations from the relevant literature?

'3)' Why is this article filed under "hypocrisy"? This can be misunderstood that "whataboutism" is a form of hypocrisy, whereas it is actually accusing a person of hypocrisy in reaction to being accused by that person. The same goes for "the pot calling the kettle black". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Larkusix (talk • contribs) 11:12, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

'4)' One additional thought. Citogenesis - Relevant illustration of the problem by XKCD: https://xkcd.com/978/ Larkusix (talk) 09:43, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Everyone remember Wikipedia:NOTAFORUM--Bellerophon5685 (talk) 22:19, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

• If an article is crap, it needs to be discussed, if that requires a bit of debate so be it. The article needs to provide more context of the development of the term as propaganda in its own right and removed from under "hypocrisy". If SublimeWik has something to contribute based on published material that can be cited then they should do so. That the contributing editor is the author of referenced material is neither here nor there. --IseeEwe (talk) 23:34, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

• • The 3 points by Larkusix show why this article is problematic: The earliest known usage of the term 'whataboutism' is 2007, by Edward Lucas of The Economist (The Kremlin’s useful idiots, Oct 29th 2007). It's his recollection of student debates at the LSE as an undergraduate in 1980. He claims the "approach by the Kremlin's useful idiots was to match every Soviet crime with a real or imagined western one. It was called 'whataboutism'". In his 2008 article Lucas claims "Soviet propagandists during the cold war were trained in a tactic that their western interlocutors nicknamed 'whataboutism'." The 2008 article is the key source for this page, referred to as an authority by secondary sources such as Miriam Elder in her The Guardian article (2012). Ascribing it to the 'Kremlin's useful idiots' in student debate seems inconsistent with the later 'Soviet propagandists' claim. There is no documented usage of the term in the Cold War era, so it seems to have first appeared in 2007, contrary to the claims in the earliest sources. More troubling is an earlier, well-documented term whataboutery, with the same definition and ascribed to known individuals, which has documented usage since at least 1978: (Hansard search for 'whataboutery') did have a Wikipedia page but it's been redirected to this page. I'd suggest 1) the first known usage in 2007 as ascribed to LSE student debates should be on the page, along with the later usage by the same author ascribing it to trained Soviet propagandists, and 2) the page for the older term Whataboutery should be restored. That appears to be the original term, with a proper definition, as given in Hansard quotes (1978, 1998) or cited by the BBC (2001): "Cardinal Cahal Daly once said: 'Whataboutery is the commonest form of moral evasion in Ireland today' Harry W1234 (talk) 23:20, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
    • whataboutery was not an article, but a redirect to Fallacy of relative privation (pporly refernced, boith). But I may agree that Edward Lucas "recollection" was inexact, and probably it was indeed "whataboutery". Does anybody care send an email to Lucas? - üser:Altenmann >t 06:21, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
      • Yes, you're right on the page history for Whataboutery it's a simple redirect rather than a delete & redirect. I could add reputable sources for that (Hansard, BBC, etc). @edwardlucas was asked about his use of the term 'whataboutism' and 'whataboutery' last year: He said "I agree about 'whataboutery' but google seems to show 'whataboutism' differently. Happy to be corrected.". So I've 1) Split the 'tu quoque' definition from usage keeping definition as opening paragraph; 2) inserted 2007 usage by Lucas at The Economist (reference to The Economist and his own blog) 3) Followed by his 2008 usage, from which contemporary use and several other sources for this page seem to be derived. I think it's better to split definition from usage and helps indicate the term's emergence in 2007-08, before being popularised in western media since 2012. Harry W1234 (talk) 14:35, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

This article should either be pulled outright or heavily rewritten. Virtually all references I see to "whataboutism" link back the article in the Economist. None provide any real documentation all simply make the assertion that it was a tactic used by the Soviets. Even the example provided in the Economist article didn't actually name anyone so it's not possible to track back the source. I would rather see a rewrite of the article explaining this term was attributed to the USSR but lacks documentation and may be just a smear tactic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.3.0.209 (talk) 01:15, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

The whole thing is just a derivation of the Tu quoque logical fallacy, similar to the Pot calls the kettle black. If A criticizes B for something, and B really did what A is accusing B of, is it relevant that A has done the same thing? Depends what question you are asking. Did B do something that is wrong? If what I have said above is true, then he has. Is A a hypocrite? Yes. Does that make it right for B do do the thing that was wrong? No, but it hurts As moral authority to castigate B. Ideally, C, a principle who has his "hands clean" of whatever act we are talking about would intervene and castigate both for doing something wrong. The point is saying someone else has done something wrong, even your accuser, does not absolve you of doing something wrong. IF we concede the point that it is wrong to support foreign governments that abuse human rights, and the Bahraini monarchy and the Assad regime fit that catagory, then the US is wrong for supporting the Bahraini monarchy and Russia is wrong for supporting Assad.--Bellerophon5685 (talk) 05:05, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

• Staff writer (31 January 2008). "Whataboutism". The Economist. Retrieved 3 July 2017. Soviet propagandists during the cold war were trained in a tactic that their western interlocutors nicknamed 'whataboutism'.

The very first sentence of the 2008 article in The Economist explains quite clearly that it was NOT coined by The Economist itself. Sagecandor (talk) 06:05, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Miriam Elder

This article mentions the controversy about Elder's article on dry cleaning. The same incident is detailed in the Miriam Elder article, which also mentions whataboutism. This seems to be a storm in a teacup. It also seems to be an attempt to build up this article with flimsy material.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:06, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I agree re 'storm in a teacup'. It seems any article or blogpost using the term 'whataboutism' counts as a source, here. This entire article oughtn't exist, to be honest. Its sources mostly stem from a single article in the Economist, and the article seems to try to make a distinction between whataboutism and whataboutery that does not exist in reality. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. GhostOfNoMeme (talk) 10:19, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Similarly, the Edward Lucas (journalist) article says he was famous for coining the word "whataboutism". "Whataboutism" is famous because of Lucas. So much of this article is circular. It's a classic case of neologism.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:26, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

I've removing this as there seems to be consensus that it is trivial.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:03, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

A "consensus" between yourself and one other person from last year. Not convincing. The info has nothing to do with whether it is "trivial", it has to do with being a direct and simple example of what the topic of the article is talking about. The whole point is that it showcases a reversal of argument from a Russian government official when criticism is applied. Silverseren^C 20:39, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

No one else responded in five months. The dry cleaning incident is simply not notable.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:00, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Silence is only a consensus until someone disagrees. Someone disagrees. And yeah, those examples appear to directly relate the the article and its topic. Stickee (talk) 01:05, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Agree with comments above by Silver seren and Stickee, directly relevant to this topic of this article. Sagecandor (talk) 21:43, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

I guess I'm frustrated because I've never succeeded in getting my anecdote about dry cleaning published. What about that, huh?--Jack Upland (talk) 08:12, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Merge with "And_you_are_lynching_Negroes" page?

I think this page and the page And you are lynching Negroes should be eventually merged. I believe they cover the exact same issue, during the same time period as well. Am I missing something?

Bzzzing (talk) 18:49, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

A merge was discussed at the Lynching page recently and rejected.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:15, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

That page seems to be a very specific incident of whataboutism (albeit a very infamous one). It's fine to have an article on a more specific event, but this one is broader than that. And doesn't necessarily only cover the Soviet Union. I don't believe they should be merged. Silverseren^C 19:26, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Oppose, agree with everything stated above in comment by Silver seren. Sagecandor (talk) 21:42, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Statement of fact in WP is sourced by Teen Vogue opinion piece

(I am changing the original title of this because it is misleading about the actual problem)DeadEyeSmile (talk) 00:15, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

After researching the issue further I realized that my initial claim in this section is incorrect. Please look below for "Please ignore my preceding argument" for my current argument DeadEyeSmile (talk) 00:15, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

http://www.teenvogue.com/story/trump-susan-rice-whataboutism-thigh-high-politics

I have removed the Teen Vogue article because it does not show an example of Whataboutism. It claims it does but it does not support those claims. Here is the premise: "Trump is working hard to sensationalize the implications of Rice’s unmasking, specifically amping up its connection to his unfounded claim that the Obama administration had his “wires tapped.”"

The author goes on to state: ""Trump is quoted in Politico saying that the probe of Rice’s intent means his notorious wiretapping tweet “is turning out to be true,”"

This is a non-sequitur. His claim that this is more evidence for his earlier claim is NOT whataboutism.

The author also states: "The same tactic is clear in his repeated attempts to stir suspicion around Hillary Clinton, as if her moral missteps might absolve him of the possibility of wrongdoing." There is no specific example here, just a general claim.

and

"Trump’s tactic of shifting focus to left-wing figures like Rice and Clinton can be best understood through a Soviet Union propaganda technique known as “whataboutism.” In short, it’s Trump saying, “Oh yeah? My administration is riddled with conflicts of interests, potential collusion with Russia, and my belligerent refusal to release my tax returns? What about [bad thing a Democrat did]?”"

This is a straw man argument. Nothing specific, simply claims made by the author and not something Trump himself said.

DeadEyeSmile (talk) 15:10, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

It looks like you intended to belittle the source, but instead you have shown the cited source to be relevant and applicable. I have restored the text and cite. Binksternet (talk) 20:47, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

I made no attempt to belittle the source. I have simply attempted to show that the source does not prove the claim that it makes and is therefore not a good source.

You have provided no explanation how the unsourced claims in the linked article are "relevant and applicable". Please point to any part of the article that shows an example of whataboutism. DeadEyeSmile (talk) 21:00, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't have to "point to any part of the article that shows an example of whataboutism" because the author does so explicitly. She's not hiding the examples or making the reader ferret them out. The source starts with the title "Trump’s Treatment of the Susan Rice Story Is Classic 'Whataboutism'" making it relevant and on topic. The story by Lauren Duca continues by describing how Trump uses the techniques of whataboutism to evade scrutiny, shift focus and deflect blame. I don't know what you're looking at, but I'm seeing a professional journalist writing an accurate and relevant article about the topic, published in a respected source. Your argument is empty; you don't have a leg to stand on. Binksternet (talk) 21:46, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Please ignore my preceding argument, which was based on a misunderstanding of the way WP works. After researching it, I realized that this issue was the following. DeadEyeSmile (talk) 00:15, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

This is a statement of fact made in the article: "When asked to defend his behavior or accused of wrongdoing, Trump has frequently shifted the topic to Democratic figures, such as Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and even U.S. Ambassador to the UN Susan Rice."

The source article is an opinion piece so please explain how someone's opinion can be used as a source for a statement of fact. DeadEyeSmile (talk) 01:38, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

It's a professional work by a veteran journalist, not an opinion piece.

I'm curious: Do you think that Trump, when under fire, does not frequently shift the topic to Obama or Clinton? Because he's famous for that. If you don't think he does that then we're done here. Binksternet (talk) 05:30, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

The source article is an opinion piece. I quote from the article:

"Thigh-High Politics is an op-ed column by Teen Vogue writer Lauren Duca"

From the Wikipedia article on Op-Ed:

"An op-ed ... is a written prose piece typically published by a newspaper or magazine which expresses the opinion of a named author usually not affiliated with the publication's editorial board."

I see that you are now stating your political beliefs in an attempt to counter my argument, which is based on facts. I quote from Wikipedia:Neutral point of view:

"All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic."

And

"NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia..."

You have revealed that you are biased against Trump and therefore have a vested interest that this article not be changed. You cannot argue honestly due to your biases so I ask you to recuse yourself. DeadEyeSmile (talk) 03:53, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

So this is the issue you want to spend your energy fighting on? The question of whether Trump evades questions of his guilt or complicity by shifting the focus in the manner of whataboutism? You know he does this, of course. It's common knowledge. Even people who support him will admit that he has been known to change the subject to Clinton or Obama when he's given a question he doesn't want to answer. I find it pretty strange that anybody would choose to fight against this obvious truth. Binksternet (talk) 08:01, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

You continue to try to deflect from my point. I couldn't care less what Trump's behavior is. This is not a political debate, despite the way that you keep trying to make it about politics. The sentence I quoted above is an attempt to support a statement of fact with an opinion piece, pure and simple. It weakens the article and violates a fundamental principle of Wikipedia. DeadEyeSmile (talk) 23:30, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

You quoted the policy page WP:NPOV which encourages us to represent "fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." The connection between Trump and Whataboutism has been published by reliable sources, so we include a paragraph or two about it. Editor bias is a separate question from whether we include this stuff or not. We include it because it's been publshed. The "bias" part is a matter of how we summarize it and how much weight we give to it. Your aim to get rid of the Trump stuff altogether, so that in itself is a contrary to the policy you quoted above. Binksternet (talk) 00:06, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Again you misrepresent my point in an attempt to win the argument when you have already shown that you are biased against Trump and therefore are not able to participate in this discussion neutrally. Your statement that '(I) "aim to get rid of the Trump stuff altogether"' is a lie. Since you continue to misrepresent what I have said, I will repeat my point here:

This is my argument:

The article makes this statement of fact: "When asked to defend his behavior or accused of wrongdoing, Trump has frequently shifted the topic to Democratic figures, such as Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and even U.S. Ambassador to the UN Susan Rice." It then links to the Teen Vogue article, an opinion piece, as a source for this statement. A statement of fact must be supported by facts, not opinions.

You have attempted to debate that my claim is incorrect and you have attempted to redirect the discussion to other things but your arguments have failed:

First you tried to claim that the article is "professional work by a veteran journalist, not an opinion piece."I have proven that to be wrong using the article itself.

Second you claim that I am wrong because of your political opinion. "Do you think that Trump, when under fire, does not frequently shift the topic to Obama or Clinton? Because he's famous for that. If you don't think he does that then we're done here." I have pointed out that this has nothing to do with politics, and that you are demonstrating bias against the subject. This is an attempt to redirect away from my point.

Third you put forth a straw man version of my argument, saying that I "aim to get rid of the Trump stuff altogether". I have not challenged any of the statements in the article about Trump which are supported by their sources, so your claim is false.

You have had three tries to refute my argument and all have failed. I have shown that the sentence quoted above is a statement of fact, which is not supported by the opinion stated in the source. I ask you once more to address my argument above without attempting to dismiss it, deflect from it, misrepresent it, or insert your opinions about the subject. DeadEyeSmile (talk) 01:57, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

The question shouldn't about whether Trump engages in Whataboutism. It should be about why there is blatant bias here. Wikipedia's standards are being maligned by this. The section title should be "Examples of Whataboutism in American Politics" and should include various examples, including ones by Trump. If this section is allowed, why not have 300 additional sections titled "Hillary Clinton and Whataboutism" or "Barack Obama and Whataboutism". Its obviously partisan, and whoever keeps editing the article has indeed shown their bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.246.20.2 (talk) 14:23, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

This article is blatantly biased from conception. It suggests that the USSR and Russia are unique in committing the tu quoque fallacy, whereas the fallacy is common and has been recognised for centuries, and it suggests the term "Whataboutism" relates to the Cold War, even though there is no documentation that it was used in that period. Then this about Trump. Obviously the alleged Trump-Russia connection prompted this, because otherwise the critique of Trump could be located (if at all) at the tu quoque article. Now, it's suggesting that Trump is the only politician that does this, whereas, obviously, this is routine. So overlaid on the anti-Communist bias, the anti-Russian bias, we have this anti-Trump bias in a witches' brew of unexamined prejudice. Wikipedia completely jumped the shark when Trump was elected and has started creating an article for every blooper, such as Bowling Green massacre and covfefe. Now this article has stopped being a Russian-bashing exercise, and now Trump is the pinata. There is no reason for this article to exist apart for a few editors to vent their frustrations at the rest of the world.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:32, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Tu quoque and whataboutism are not the same thing. Tu quoque aims to undermine the opponent's argument by pointing out that the opponent's past actions are inconsistent with his current argument. Whataboutism differs by introducing a red herring argument involving irrelevant, widely tangential or patently false claims, and possibly by introducing a balance fallacy equating the irrelevant/tangential/false argument with the opponent's argument. Whataboutism aims to derail the argument entirely, whereas tu quoque assumes that the debate will continue. Binksternet (talk) 00:06, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

DeadEyeSmile - look, it's not your job to start an argument with the source. Please see original research. The source is either reliable or not. If you want to discuss it's reliability ask at WP:RSN. In the meantime, quit it with the edit warring.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:18, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Please read through my point above (under "This is my argument:"). I'm not starting an argument with the source. There is a statement of fact in the wikipedia article and the source that it links to is an opinion piece. Read through my extensive discussion of this above and my reasons why I made the change I did. Whether the source is reliable or not is not the point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DeadEyeSmile (talk • contribs) 01:07, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

If you're not happy about Teen Vogue, then The Daily Beast makes the same statement: [1]. Stickee (talk) 01:11, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Not being "happy" about it isn't a reason to doubt the professionalism of the Teen Vogue piece. There are lots of sources we can draw from (I just added USA Today and Foreign Policy) but the Teen Vogue piece is perfectly fine. The author draws a very clear parallel between Trump's tactics and Soviet whataboutism, the comparison being accurate, not opinion. Opinion would be whether the soup tastes salty enough, or if the style of the couch doesn't go with the curtains. Binksternet (talk) 02:10, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

You are still missing my point. The author states her opinion about Trump and Whataboutism and the WP article treats it as fact. A more apt metaphor would be for me to state as fact "Onion soup is better than Tomato soup" and then link to an article where someone says that they hate Tomato soup and Onion soup is clearly better. This is clearly spelled out in WP:NPOV, as I have mentioned before. You are adding nothing new, just restating your argument that I have already refuted above. DeadEyeSmile (talk) 00:25, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Binksternet I see that you have added two more sources, neither of which supports this sentence in the WP article:

"When asked to defend his behavior or accused of wrongdoing, Trump has frequently shifted the topic to Democratic figures, such as Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and even U.S. Ambassador to the UN Susan Rice."

If the "Teen Vogue piece is perfectly fine" (I don't agree that it is) then why muddy the water further by adding two more totally unrelated sources? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DeadEyeSmile (talk • contribs) 00:51, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Removed Teen Vogue myself at edit [2]. If there are better sources out there, and there are, as noted, above, let's stick to the stronger sources. Best to add more stronger sources to back up such facts, instead. Sagecandor (talk) 21:39, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Noam Chomsky Example

(Moving this into its own section since it is different than the discussion above)

Also, a quick note that the last addition would be WP:OR since the specified source doesn't mention "whataboutism" anywhere in the article. Stickee (talk) 00:45, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Replying to this comment by DeadEyeSmile on my talk page: "Hi I have seen your comment about my addition regarding Noam Chomsky being OR but I don't fully understand it. Are you saying that the source has the have the phrase "Whataboutism" in it? Would it be better to link to another news source that discusses the op-ed written by Chomsky instead of the op-ed itself? Thanks" [3].

Correct. The source you specified is only about hypocrisy, a different concept to whataboutism. It would be original research to say that the Chomsky case applies to whataboutism. If you can find a source that describes that particular case as whataboutism, then it wouldn't be OR. Stickee (talk) 22:38, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the help Stickee. I have found another example by Chomsky with a supporting source that mentions whataboutism explicitly and added it accordingly. DeadEyeSmile (talk) 01:52, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Proposed Merge into tu quoque

Whataboutism is a term coined in 2008 to describe what the USSR did. But, there was already an existing term which means the same thing-- tu quoque. Instead of having two articles meaning the same thing, why not merge them? ‡ Єl Cid, Єl Caɱ̩peador ^ᐁT₳LKᐃ 03:32, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

This idea was floated, but dismissed, when the article was kept at AfD a while back: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Whataboutism. There shouldn't be a merge, since tu quoque is the general technique, while this article is about a specific application of it. Stickee (talk) 07:07, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

It isn't a specific application of it, though. It's just a name given to something that had happened decades before. During the cold war, no one used this term. It IS the same thing as tu quoque, and a term created by Newsweek shouldn't get a separate article just because they gave an old phrase a new name. ‡ Єl Cid, Єl Caɱ̩peador ^ᐁT₳LKᐃ 13:49, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

WhatA is a lot less obscure, and the merger would greatly dilute the most common usage.--Galassi (talk) 14:31, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it's very faddish. If someone starts calling the yo-yo a vo-vo, do we need a new article that documents each use of the term vo-vo? WP:NEOLOGISM applies.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:10, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

The two topics are not the same. Whataboutism adds a red herring claim and possibly a balance fallacy to the tu quoque tactic. The two tactics have different aims, with whataboutism aiming to derail the whole debate while tu quoque stays within the debate. Binksternet (talk) 00:10, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. Agree with Stickee that the two articles are completely different applications. Agree with Galassi that the merge would greatly dilute the most common usage. Agree with Binksternet that the two tactics have different aims and histories. Sagecandor (talk) 16:55, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Soviet Union sidebar is directly relevant to this article

Soviet Union sidebar is directly relevant to this article.

This article defines the term "Whataboutism" as directly relevant to the Soviet Union in the very first sentence.

Soviet Union sidebar should remain. Sagecandor (talk) 17:06, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

The first sentence: Whataboutism is a propaganda technique first used by the Soviet Union, in its dealings with the Western world. is false on its face. Whataboutism is an element of rhetoric that has been used by every politician and every nation for millennia (and even, according to the NPR source, by schoolchildren! ). Apparently an Economist journalist in 2008 wrote that it was a "typical" tactic of the Soviet Union vs the United States; this may well be the case but it's also a "typical" tactic of China vs. Japan, France vs. Germany, Israel vs. Palestine, Iraq vs. Iran, and pretty much every pair of nations who ever waged a hot or cold war against each other. A more correct first sentence would be: Whataboutism is a neologism coined by The Economist journalist Edward Lucas in 2008 in reference to the rhetorical technique of pointing out similar misdeeds in your opponent's behaviour compared to what they accuse you of, hoping to focus on their hypocrisy instead of the matter at hand.

The sidebar about the Soviet Union says nothing about this phenomenon, even though it includes Soviet propaganda. As it stands, displaying this sidebar makes no sense in this article. The journalist coined the term almost 17 years after the Soviet Union was dissolved, in a bid to shame Russia; why not include a Russia sidebar then? or a journalism sidebar? or an international relations sidebar? or a politics sidebar? or a fallacies sidebar? or a rhetoric sidebar? or a philosophy sidebar?

I noticed this article following the opening of a WP:DR/N case; I didn't want to touch the text until that dispute is resolved, however the Soviet Union sidebar is really misleading for readers, that's why I removed it. — JFG ^talk 21:06, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Most of this article is not about the USSR — there are only two sentences in the body — so it is very misleading.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:22, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Seems POV since most of the article is not about the USSR, heck way more is about Trump than the soviets. PackMecEng (talk) 00:25, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Comment: Entire overview section about Soviet. Soviet relevant article topic subject. We use soviet sidebar for soviet article here. Is soviet. Sagecandor (talk) 14:47, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Above arguments make no sense. They are irrational. And illogical. Article has entire section about Soviet Union origination of the practice itself. It is directly related to the Soviet Union. It started there. It was propagated by them. It is referred to in its practice in virtually all secondary sources that discuss this subject. Sagecandor (talk) 20:54, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

There are two sentences in the body of the article about the USSR, relating to an article by Ilya Ehrenberg in 1947. The rest of that section is actually about post-Soviet Russia.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:43, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Sure, will work on more research. The post-Soviet Russia is directly related to Soviet Russia itself, as all intelligence operations techniques from KGB influenced later FSB. Sagecandor (talk) 16:01, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Hang on, there are two sentences about the USSR. That's it! That doesn't justify having a Soviet Union sidebar, and we're not going to the hold the page until you do some research to prove your predetermined conclusions.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:08, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Shouting at me with false statements of fact not backed up by sources will not make them any less inaccurate. Sagecandor (talk) 16:53, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Not coined by The Economist

• Staff writer (31 January 2008). "Whataboutism". The Economist. Retrieved 3 July 2017. Soviet propagandists during the cold war were trained in a tactic that their western interlocutors nicknamed 'whataboutism'.

The very first sentence of the 2008 article in The Economist explains quite clearly that it was NOT coined by The Economist itself. Sagecandor (talk) 06:00, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Why are you posting the same comment everywhere, including in the archive? We have discussed this before. The Economist claims that the term was used during the Cold War, but we have never found an example of this. Economist writer, Edward Lucas, wrote a blog prior to that article, which also used the term, but linked it to university debates rather than Soviet propaganda as such. This is the earliest mention we have been able to find. While it might be true that the Economist didn't literally coin the term, it did put it into circulation. If it was in use during the Cold War, it never seems to have found its way into print, and Lucas seems to be the only one who remembers it.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:04, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

User provides zero sources to back up their false claims and WP:No original research violations. Sagecandor (talk) 16:53, 3 July 2017 (UTC)